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Thread: Psionic Bias?

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    Default Psionic Bias?

    It seems to me like there are a lot of people who are completely opposed to Psionics. People I have played with have had entire discussions on how Psionics suck/are overpowered/stole their laundry but they were talking about 2E Psionics. Looking through the great internets, I see that there are others who share this opinion; why is that?

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    Default Re: Psionic Bias?

    It started once and got repeated since.

    I think 3.0 psionics wasn't that great either, but 3.5e psionics is actually a very good magic system that some people like even more than the old spell slot system.

    And then there's the thing that they decided for some reason to do all the psionic fluff with shaved heads, tatoos, crystal equipment, and ectoplasm and such, that really makes it hard it first to think of it as magic in a high fantasy setting. Once you got accustomed to the setting, you can play psionic characters exactly like bards and sorcerers, but I think the fluff in the XPH really is a huge distraction.
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    Default Re: Psionic Bias?

    2.0 and earlier psionics was overpowered. Well, technically, it was random so no control.
    Then there were psionic classes making it less random, but still the fact that you could get Disintegrate at 1st with a slight chance of critical failing so you used it on yourself.
    So it was dangerous, but overpowered if it worked.
    Lots of headaches.

    3.0 Psionics was weird. It was both under and over powered.
    Psionic combat made it worse.
    See monsters didn't have a PP limit so they used their psi combat/defenses for free. Meaning they could spam them making you waste yours.
    You had to put up a defense or it got worse for you (bigger penalties).
    Heck, the classic worry was a PsyWarr being chased by a brain mole: since they could just spam attacks and you kinda had to defend till you are drained.

    You had to specilize but it came with good/bad things.
    There were some cool things like making Con based Psion so bonus PP came from your Con. But you still needed decent stats for every ability score due to you needed the minimum to use that discipline (dumped stats meant can't use discipline).

    3.5: people have trouble forgetting the past, not to go Godwin but Hitler nuff said.
    So though 3.5 psionics is better balanced than Core-DMs are wary of it.

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    Default Re: Psionic Bias?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    And then there's the thing that they decided for some reason to do all the psionic fluff with shaved heads, tatoos, crystal equipment, and ectoplasm and such, that really makes it hard it first to think of it as magic in a high fantasy setting. Once you got accustomed to the setting, you can play psionic characters exactly like bards and sorcerers, but I think the fluff in the XPH really is a huge distraction.
    Also some of art looks more like SF than fantasy.

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    Default Re: Psionic Bias?

    With core only+ expanded PH psionics are overpowered because thaere arent nearly enough spells that deal damage in the form that people want i.e there is no lesser acid orb where psionics gets Hammer. Once you expand the rules, psionics is incredibly unflexible and loses its advantage.

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    Default Re: Psionic Bias?

    Hammer is more like Chill Touch. They both deal a small amount of damage for more than 1 attack.
    Chill touch is better that it also lowers Str with failed save.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nidogg View Post
    With core only+ expanded PH psionics are overpowered because thaere arent nearly enough spells that deal damage in the form that people want i.e there is no lesser acid orb where psionics gets Hammer. Once you expand the rules, psionics is incredibly unflexible and loses its advantage.
    No. Psionics does blasting reasonably well, whereas core doesn't. Doing something better than someone else who takes a bad option and does it badly isn't overpowered.

    Unless you're just saying that psionics can't do ANYTHING better than magic (because magic can do anything, and should do it better than everyone else, all at the same time), which is a horrible position to take.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nidogg View Post
    With core only+ expanded PH psionics are overpowered because thaere arent nearly enough spells that deal damage in the form that people want i.e there is no lesser acid orb where psionics gets Hammer. Once you expand the rules, psionics is incredibly unflexible and loses its advantage.
    Yeah, but... psionics is better than magic at direct damage. Magic is better than psionics at other things, such as battlefield control. The two are not the same.
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    Default Re: Psionic Bias?

    Alright, another question for the playground:

    What makes Psionics more balanced than the Vancian Magic system used by Wizards? I am trying to compile a list for my group.

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    I just found Psionics to be harder to wrap my head around and harder to integrate into my worlds. Beyond that, no one I know that plays uses Psionics, so....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zergrusheddie View Post
    Alright, another question for the playground:

    What makes Psionics more balanced than the Vancian Magic system used by Wizards? I am trying to compile a list for my group.
    Why reinvent the wheel?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    What about bookkeeping? That has been my biggest issue reading the XPH- the powers look rather difficult to me, at least more difficult than most spells.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon Magazine, Issue 4
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheYoungKing View Post
    What about bookkeeping? That has been my biggest issue reading the XPH- the powers look rather difficult to me, at least more difficult than most spells.
    *Wizard starts the day*
    "Let's see... I'll need two Glitterdusts, an SM3, Alter Self, Fly, a couple of invisibilities for myself and the rogue, one Extended Mage Armor, 2 Empowered Acid Orbs..."

    *Psion starts the day*
    *Erases current PP total. Writes in max PP total.*
    "Who wants coffee?"

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    Default Re: Psionic Bias?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheYoungKing View Post
    What about bookkeeping? That has been my biggest issue reading the XPH- the powers look rather difficult to me, at least more difficult than most spells.
    Isn't that basic math...?
    It isn't algebra, geometry, trig, etc. You just add and subtract numbers. I mean, you could multiply but that is still just adding really.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zergrusheddie View Post
    Alright, another question for the playground:

    What makes Psionics more balanced than the Vancian Magic system used by Wizards? I am trying to compile a list for my group.
    Psionic powers are less abusable. Many of the powers are directly lifted from PHB spells, then lightly tenderized with a nerf bat. It means that the powers aren't nearly as game-breaking while still scaling at a reasonable rate.

    Psionic power points also have an edge over Vancian casting because it's basically the same system every computer and console RPG uses (i.e. a pool of mana/magicka/etc. that let you cast spells until you need to replenish them). It's difficult for new players to wrap their heads around the fact that 9th level casters don't get 9th level spells, but a Psion gets better powers simply by dumping more power points into one they already have.

    The classes themselves are also more carefully designed than the Tier 1 casters of the PHB. The Psion is usually labeled as Tier 2 or 3, the Psychic Warrior is Tier 3, the Wilder is 3/4, and the Soulknife is... bad. When you combine less broken powers with classes that have reasonable limits placed on them by the power points system, you get the Expanded Psionics Handbook.
    Last edited by InkEyes; 2010-04-02 at 11:57 AM.

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    Most time it is: I spend 8 pp, so the spell deals 8d6 points of damage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by InkEyes View Post
    The Psion is usually labeled as Tier 2 or 3, the Psychic Warrior is Tier 3, the Wilder is 3/4, and the Soulknife is... bad.
    The Soulknife isn't actually psionic. Nothing really ties him to the others. He's the Big Lipped Alligator of the XPH.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    Isn't that basic math...?
    It isn't algebra, geometry, trig, etc. You just add and subtract numbers. I mean, you could multiply but that is still just adding really.
    I find the points harder to keep track of, thank you. Not due to mathematical ability, but because I've always been bad at keeping track of totals like that. And having to deicde to augment or not, thus having a different cost each and every time. Add to that being the DM and trying to keep track of your Psionics.....

    Having a qualitative system (spells) seems to me to be easier than a quantitative system (PP). Maybe that is just me, but whenever I've looked at Psionics, I have imagined it would be a mess (and when I did do Psionics in d20 Modern, it was.)

    (Also, I and most people I know just construct set spell lists in advance. This is for Situation A, Situation B.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon Magazine, Issue 4
    A player may orgy continuously as many days as he has constitution points, but then must rest for as many days as he orgied.
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    My thing with Psionics is very simple. I don't see it as something that fits into a fantasy setting. To my addled way of thinking, Psi Powers belong in a modern or futuristic setting, rather than along side Wizards and Clerics.

    Mechanically, the rules are fine, though a lack of fluff in the SRD is annoying. For me, it's more an issue of style and theme over the rules say I can.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheYoungKing View Post
    What about bookkeeping? That has been my biggest issue reading the XPH- the powers look rather difficult to me, at least more difficult than most spells.
    The only bookeeping is subtraction and deciding how much to spend on augments when you have the options. The bookeeping in that regard is simpler than Vancian magic. A wizard needs to keep track of every spell they have still prepared and how many copies of it they have. A psion needs to only keep track of 1 number.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Big Dice View Post
    My thing with Psionics is very simple. I don't see it as something that fits into a fantasy setting. To my addled way of thinking, Psi Powers belong in a modern or futuristic setting, rather than along side Wizards and Clerics.

    Mechanically, the rules are fine, though a lack of fluff in the SRD is annoying. For me, it's more an issue of style and theme over the rules say I can.
    I've never understood rejection based on fluff - for psionics, ToB, whatever.

    Fluff is the easiest aspect to change in a system. You could just replace the word "psionic" with "magic" and "power" with spell and it would work, mostly. The rationale for psionics existing is only limited by your creativity.
    Last edited by Catch; 2010-04-02 at 12:08 PM.
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    Default Re: Psionic Bias?

    As far as I'm concerned, I see no reason to introduce psionics in my games or suggest doing that because I like neither flavor nor the mechanics very much, so there's no point in doing it. I'd comply if the majority at the table wanted to do that, but I'd vote against it.
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    Why vote against it? I'm cool with you not entering it unless voted: seems reasonable.
    But why the hatred of it? Why can't another use it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    The Soulknife isn't actually psionic. Nothing really ties him to the others. He's the Big Lipped Alligator of the XPH.
    It's psionic because it has a miiind blaaade oooooeeeoooh!



    Quote Originally Posted by TheYoungKing View Post
    I find the points harder to keep track of, thank you. Not due to mathematical ability, but because I've always been bad at keeping track of totals like that. And having to deicde to augment or not, thus having a different cost each and every time. Add to that being the DM and trying to keep track of your Psionics.....

    Having a qualitative system (spells) seems to me to be easier than a quantitative system (PP). Maybe that is just me, but whenever I've looked at Psionics, I have imagined it would be a mess (and when I did do Psionics in d20 Modern, it was.)

    (Also, I and most people I know just construct set spell lists in advance. This is for Situation A, Situation B.)
    Do you also have difficulty keeping track of HP, power attack, spells per day, AC, sneak attack, damage spells, attack rolls, spell duration, and skill checks? Because those all involve keeping track of total points per level too, and it's all core.

    I can appreciate being alienated by other issues with Psionics, but Power Points is probably the easiest casting system 3.5 D&D has: you have a list of powers, you have a power point pool, the powers scale based on how many power points you dump in (up to the manifester's class level).

    PS: (d20 Modern is already more cluttered, I mean, look at the skill list. )
    Last edited by InkEyes; 2010-04-02 at 12:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Big Dice View Post
    My thing with Psionics is very simple. I don't see it as something that fits into a fantasy setting. To my addled way of thinking, Psi Powers belong in a modern or futuristic setting, rather than along side Wizards and Clerics.

    Mechanically, the rules are fine, though a lack of fluff in the SRD is annoying. For me, it's more an issue of style and theme over the rules say I can.
    Name aside, I recommend thinking of it like the Monk's ki. We all agree Monks can use meditation and mental discipline to achieve supernatural effects, right? I mean, six of their class abilities are (Su). I'd think of psi the same way. Psions and Psychic Warriors (and to a limited extend, Wilders) all use meditation and mental discipline to achieve supernatural effects, just like the Monk does. As a result, they're no more "sci fi" than Monks are.

    It can help, though, to strike all instances of the word "crystal" and replace it with "gem".
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    {Scrubbed}
    Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2010-04-02 at 08:43 PM.
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    I actually use the psionic rules for all spellcasters and call it magic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch View Post
    I've never understood rejection based on fluff - for psionics, ToB, whatever.

    Fluff is the easiest aspect to change in a system. You could just replace the word "psionic" with "magic" and "power" with spell and it would work, mostly. The rationale for psionics existing is only limited by your creativity.
    You could argue the same for energy weapons powered by magic, for cars with "infernal combustion engines" or anything else you want to refluff.

    Fluff is more important than you might think. Without it, the SRD just isn't enough to run a game with, simply because most of the classes lack any kind of description for what they are. As opposed to what they do, which is covered in great detail.

    I'm not saying OMGPSIONICSIZHAXURDOINITRONG! What I'm saying is, I don't feel it fits seamlessly into a fantasy game, and that's why I don't use it at my table.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheYoungKing View Post
    (Also, I and most people I know just construct set spell lists in advance. This is for Situation A, Situation B.)
    See, in my opinion, that approach requires sacrificing too much flexibility in the name of standardization. If I'm in a pitched battle, I don't want to have to keep a running tally in the back of my head of how many Scorching Rays I have left (both metamagicked and not) so I know where I should be aiming them. Nor do I want to have to try and estimate the number of guards between me and the king so I know how many Charm Persons to prepare.

    I'd rather just know that - I have plenty of PP left, cut loose; or, I'm running low, time to make my powers last.

    Metamagic makes it worse. So the white dragon is on its last legs, and I have a Maximized Fireball left that I'd been saving, but the Paladin got off a critical smite. So yeah, I can fry it to a grease spot on my turn (what a waste of a 6th-level slot), or pass my turn and save the spell for a full-strength enemy our DM will probably drop on us on the way out - risking the Dragon chowing down on the party rogue nearby before it dies.

    Meanwhile the Psion can just fire an Energy Ray and only augment it as needed. Say, up to 7 PP, or the equivalent of a 4th-level spell. I take out the dragon before he can get off a parting bite, and have enough juice left for future encounters, because PP have greater granularity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InkEyes View Post
    Do you also have difficulty keeping track of HP, power attack, spells per day, AC, sneak attack, damage spells, attack rolls, spell duration, and skill checks? Because those all involve keeping track of total points per level too, and it's all core.
    Those are static, you'll note, or involve die rolls. There isn't another deductible and modular point system in 3.5, unless you count arrows with Multishot. (And this is why I stayed away from guns in d20 Modern and from bows in 3.5. I'm messy on keeping track of those non-static numbers.)

    I can appreciate being alienated by other issues with Psionics, but Power Points is probably the easiest casting system 3.5 D&D has: you have a list of powers, you have a power point pool, the powers scale based on how many power points you dump in (up to the manifester's class level).
    Which I find to be a lot more complex than just scratching fireball off your spell list and rolling for damage. Your damage rolls will be exactly the same for a fairly good period of time (levels) with fireball, versus a psionic power, where you'll roll differently and pay for it differently depending on how you augment it.

    I don't see how you could say that is easier, either for the player or the DM (who has to watch for player fudges, something my DM kept catching me on with my Gunslinger.)

    PS: (d20 Modern is already more cluttered, I mean, look at the skill list. )
    No disagreement here. But luckily, those skill bonuses are static and you memorize the ones you use consistently. So, still not at all like PP.

    EDIT: And I love how everyone is implying I'm an idiot who can't find the right dice size simply because I find power points to have more bookkeeping.
    Last edited by TheYoungKing; 2010-04-02 at 12:33 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon Magazine, Issue 4
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    My first homebrew- Ur-Priest as a Base Class?! The Divine Charlatan

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