Psionic Bias?

[Tavar]

All right, I get that now... but I don't see what you're getting at by pointing that out.

Yes, Vancian is a ridiculous system that only a small subset of fantasy authors bother considering - and even the ones that do, consider "true magic" to be that magic which rightly does away with it. What does that have to do with Psionics?

Simply that it's better then Vancian for portraying most standard fantasy.

[Bogardan_Mage]

Vancian magic is a novel and creative way of synergising the needs of a high action dramatic story or game with the mythological basis of magic. Western magic has historically been about arcane rituals and invocations to gods or demons which can really mess up the pacing of a battle. So Jack Vance's solution was to have wizards do all those rituals and invocations ahead of time and then fire off the spell when they needed to. A lot of people forget that the point of Vancian magic is to stay somewhat true to mythology, and without this context it seems to be the case that wizards are "forgetting" their spells as they cast them or that Vancian magic makes less sense than a mana based system like psionics.

One could, if one was so inclined, use this to point out that a Vancian system is indeed unsuitable fluff-wise for psionics since the lore about rituals and invocations aren't there. However, I'm not so inclined, because while I do think this fluff is important to understanding Vancian magic, I don't think it's necessarily linked with the system such that any appearance of spell slots necessitates this kind of explanation (just look at the Sorceror, for example. It cuts out exactly the part of Vancian magic that makes it properly Vancian). Not that I think psionics should use spell slots; I think both systems have been designed around themselves too much to hamhandedly give the Psion power slots or give the Wizard spell points (for some reason I don't like that UA system, perhaps it's just that psionics is so much better integrated). If you want to use one system with the other's fluff, you should refluff the whole thing and copy it over.

[Ashiel]

Not really. Core enough adds plenty of options. One or two good splatbooks greatly increase that variety. Psionic handbook by itself doesn't give as much versatility as psion fans claim.

Bollocks. Psionics covers a lot of versatility and makes blasting casters viable without resorting to huge amounts of rule-crunching, meta-shrinking, and splat-booking. There are fewer powers per level than arcane-casters sport, but most of those powers scale with level; do more stuff as you augment them, and so forth. Their ability to draw powers from different lists also allows for customizing them effectively at the cost of feats; which is entirely a great option - because thanks to augmenting, such a feat is rarely wasted.

Additionally, they're easier to multi-class without gimping yourself. At the same time, it's harder to crank out super-busted stuff in that department (a Psion 10/Slayer 10 sports a +15 BAB and 18th level manifesting, but is at best on par with wizard 20 or cleric 20 or druid 20; and likely weaker - but damn fun to play). Because of the system works, it's easier to press it into a wider variety of character arch-types or concepts.

Psionics sports:

• Excellent summoning options.
• Excellent blasting options.
• Excellent mind-influencing options.
• Excellent mobility options.
• Excellent self-buff options.
• Strong utility options.
• Strong battlefield control options.
• Fair party-assist options.
• Poor save or die options.
• Poor healing options.
• Poor illusion options.
• Poor transmutation options.
• Poor alignment-based options.
• Virtually no necromancy options.

Most of those options have options within options. If you pickup energy powers, you can adjust the energy type on the fly (greatly helping direct damage energy effects, which core spell-casting does very badly).

Your summons (astral constructs) are versatile and shape-able; and usable for utility as well as meat-shields. They don't get all the crazy spell-like abilities that traditional summoning does (such as summoning a unicorn to heal your party better than the level-equivalent healing spell on your same list). So they're not the best summoners but they're good at it.

Your mind-influencing options are probably the best in the game; but such things are easily guarded against (sadly). That being said, you're better at such things than core spell-casting (because it's pretty easy to keep spamming psionic charm against minor NPCs to make friends); however core casting can hit higher save DCs than you without cheese (spell focus is better than its psionic equivalent); and completely smashes it with cheese (Polymorph Any Object abuse can give you insane prime casting boosts, Awaken abuse, and so forth).

You have a large number of utility/self-buff powers that can benefit not only casters but other character types as well (sometimes more than casters actually), which again makes them ideal for multi-classing for filling out different concepts. A character sporting synesthete can pull the blind-swordsman bit exceptionally well, for example; while a monk/psychic warrior has a lot of synergy with their powers and key abilities which makes for a solidly playable character (though I prefer just slapping psywarrior powers on a core monk and calling it..."Monk").

They can pull a decent amount of battlefield control. Nothing near what the wizard can sport (but hey, we're better blasters and are well-rounded). They have a few wall powers (energy wall and wall of ectoplasm), and their summoning could be considered control-based. They sport psionic grease, and entangling ectoplasm which are decent debuffs (particularly at low-levels or if you're trying to conserve energy). They sport powers like telekinetic maneuver which allow them to trip, disarm, and bull-rush people with their minds from a distance which makes for excellent single-target battle-control.

Frankly, they have a ton of options. It's just none of those options exceed what core-casters are already capable of; other than the blasting option (but core out-paces them when splat-books are included); but they don't possess everything that core-casters can bring to bare. They're solidly balanced.

It's a group of builds wich seek to give your character infinite power. And it can be done in core with wish loops.

Last I checked, you had to make use of non-core material to get it to work; with the most accepted version requiring Pazuzu to initiate from level 1 with virtually any character (preferably a Paladin though). Wish loops work fine too though for completely breaking the game. Why are talking about core-brokenness?

You're completely right. I'm indeed arguing against nothing, since psionics can't actually mimic large portions of magic and wide variety of concepts, since you're only pretending you have the limitations, and your psion will never be stoped from manifesting if tied and gagged.

You could blindfold the psion, denying them line of sight to anything. Alternatively, they still provoke attacks when they manifest (even without displays) so you can ****-kick them in the face if they try something funny. Alternatively, it means you're too dangerous to allow you consciousness; at which point you beat them half-to-death until they pass out (nonlethal damage). Generally though, being tied up is pretty deus ex; since if your enemies are dangerous they probably would have killed you in your weakened state anyway.

Additionally, grappled and gagged means your effectively entangled and grappled/pinned; so to successfully manifest you need to sport a DC 20 + Power Level to successfully do it in such a situation.

In other words, when you're not bound and gagged, you can chant and wave your hands or whatever you want without problems. If you are bound and gagged, you can still try but it becomes harder without your freedom. Then again

We're disccussing if dudes who can alter reality with just thinking minds are the same as dudes who can alter reality with chanting and weird gestures/components. Common sense was thrown out of the window screaming long ago.

Yeah, we're discussing that. However, common sense in the discussion was not thrown out the window; and should not be. If you threw your common sense out the window because of the subject matter, then you should follow it in hopes of retrieving it.

Yep, lots of ways to twist the system to make it work for you. Mithril armor, spending feats or using prestige classes to cast in armor, or entering into a variety of prestige classes from different splat-books and so forth.

Again, you're also arguing something I'm not. I never suggested that a fighter/wizard or fighter/psion was even on equal terms with a strait-wizard or strait-psion (well, especially not a strait wizard). I was pointing out that you don't have to spend lots of feats and resources to succeed at being weaker. Instead, you can make a better mage-knight.

No you can't. A well built gish can actualy end up as good if not stronger than a straight wizard.

Wait, what? "No you can't" what? That doesn't even connect to anything I said in that statement.

On the other hand; it's possible to super-gish stuff where they fight as good as warriors and cast as good as casters with a ton of splat-books and a number of prestige classes like Abjurant Champion. Thing is, with core-psionics it's easy to make a good and playable gish with either Psychic Warrior or Psion; with the best probably involving Psion and Slayer levels for a +15 BAB / 9th level manifesting; which is still less optimized than Wizard 20.

Have your weapon/shield be your holy symbol. Or buff yourself before drawing your weapon. Or use a light shield to keep your hand free. Or use spells that don't demand focus. How hard is it?

Well, let's see. Firstly, weapons and armor aren't holy symbols within the rules. I wouldn't mind someone doing that, but if you're really strong on keeping stuff RAW-only like Saph does, then this doesn't work. You're also again having to jump through hoops and fine-tooth the system to make sure you can get something sort-of workable; such as requiring your opening turn action to be self-buff or else you can't do it (since once combat has started, you either have to waste actions re-sheathing your weapons to cast, or dropping them); and making sure you only pick spells without specific components, which often doesn't leave you with much to choose from (and often not what you want).

How hard is it? Well, it's a lot harder than just using Psionics. Especially for beginners. I cannot stress how amazingly aggravating something like that is for people who aren't experts at rule-mastery.

So, why do you ignore what you can do with core?

I haven't ignored it. Keep making stuff up if you want to, but here's the skinny on the subject. I know what core is capable of. I've been doing this for a very long time. I'm aware of what core-casting has to offer, and I'm aware of its limitations. I'm aware of many of the little tricks and gimmicks to try to ignore the restrictions and quirks of the system.

Which is exactly why I think the psionics system is so great.

Exactly when did I say I was ignoring core anyway? It's practically all I use when building adventures and games for my tabletop group; so I'm curious. Where did I suggest someone else ignore core? I don't believe I've said that. What makes you say this?

Easy to say. Much MUCH harder to do. There's hundreds of homebrew projects out there, and I have yet to see one that does that, yet alone in a single afternoon. It would probably be easier to fix core than to fill psionic holes, and we've been trying to fix core for over a decade now.

Actually, to address the major drawbacks of a game that runs entirely under psionics based casting, specifically the lack of healing, party-buffs, necromancy, illusion, and so forth; yes it would only take maybe 8 hours if you were working on it diligently. The nature of augmenting actually allows you to make a few powers which get better as you can augment it; meaning if I were to do it I would likely end up consolidating a large number of spells into augment-able versions.

The cure x wounds line would become cure wounds with the ability to augment it to improve its benefit (such as 1pp gets 1d8+1, 3pp gets 2d8+3, 5pp gets 3d8+5, etc). That's that.

Stuff like silent image would be condensed into Image, and augmenting it would allow you to add more effects to the illusion, increase its duration, dimensions, or other aspects.

Stuff like ray of fatigue or waves of fatigue and their exhaustion counterparts would be condensed to allow you to boost them strait from fatigued to exhausted within the same powers.

Stuff like animate dead would be likely be adjusted to use XP - or it would be adjusted to be less powerful by default. Augmenting would also be ideal here for getting stronger undead. Spells like create undead would go through a similar process, with create greater undead being rolled into it as augment-able.

Summoning would be very much like astral construct except it would offer different tiers of creatures that you could summon. The actual methods would be pretty much the same. Actually, I would probably add the ability to augment it so that you can still summon multiple weak creatures, or maybe weak creatures with longer durations (but I'd add this to astral constructs too if that were the case).

Spells like haste and other buff spells could be more or less converted seamlessly; possibly with the application of augments so that you could use more power to pop them with longer durations (such as 1 minute / level rather than 1 round / level); or eventually be able to pop a swift-action haste for the cost of say, a 7th level power.

Invisibility would also be sweet and pretty easy to convert as well; along with rolling improved invisibility into it in true augmenting fashion.

The biggest hurdles would be creating psionic versions of broke-ass spells like polymorph any object, since it would require me to balance such spells; and it would take more time to decide how to properly word them and what limitations to provide that they lack in the core rules.

Humorously; this makes me realize that the PHB spell section would be nearly as large if you could augment standard spell-casting.

Or play a straight cleric. Or a straight sorceror. And bother to pick the right feats and spells. Just like your psion would need to pick his own feats and powers. No jumping trough more hoops than psionics, and you don't need to learn a whole new system!

Yeah, I know you're not reading my posts now. You're basically ignoring the benefit of options I mentioned before. However, this argument is fail, because the cleric is still limited by a number of mechanics that can stifle a character concept or doesn't offer the types of powers you're looking for (the aforementioned spell-knight for example casting energy spells); in addition a core-sorcerer doesn't multi-class well due to the way they are designed, and also don't make a solid blaster because of the way core magic works. Instead of being capable blasters, they just blast sub-par more often.

Additionally, they need to devote meta-magic feats that they don't get to allow them to keep up with blasting (but their DCs don't go up so while they deal more +d6s or 1.5x damage, enemies save vs their spells more often) while requiring them to do so as full-round actions. You still also end up with the bat-poop flinging, arm waggling sorcerers - despite their power is supposed to be entirely innate and from within their naturally arcane-filled selves. Essentially, the core-magic fails at the sorcerer fluff by default.

Also, both are still stuck with the x/day slot system, which as I pointed out is often less than desirable for quite a few people; requires more book-keeping for preparation casters; is less fluid; and has all the usual hang-ups.

Again, easy talk, much harder when you try to actualy do it. If it was as easy as you say, someone would've done it by now.

Someone has done it by now. I've met several people on forums who don't even use core-casting for their magic and use the psionics system entirely. I prefer using both because I like options myself; and my friends and fellow players like options.

Also, see two or three paragraphs back in this post.

I would say that it's much easier to miss the manifester limit rule than to miss a whole table, but meh, since you missed several other core stuff, I'll take your word for it.

It's also easy to miss how grappling and such works; or that your save DCs aren't 10 + caster level + ability modifier (something I've ran into with people a few times; especially with newbies); or that you deal unarmed strike damage on a successful grapple check; or that you can move 1/2 your speed with a grappled foe in toe if you succeed on a grapple check (with a +4 bonus if you pinned them already); or any number of things really.

Additionally, it is pointed out several times within the book; especially within the psionics overview chapter; as well as numerous FAQs and forums like this one. Frankly, the inability of a player to simply read the information on the class they want to play is disgraceful. It's pathetic. Suggesting that such a simple rule - even if it's overlooked by lots of people too lazy to just read the rules - is a strike against the system is crazy. This sort of thinking is creating a double-standard; since it appears that it's fine if other rules are easily misplaced but it makes Psionics a bad system for it.

And now we bring simple statistics, and see there's a lot more people out there using magic than psionics. If psionic problems are so easily bypassed, why is it so?

Because humans are a strange animal. Psionics harbors a bad reputation from 1st edition through 3.0, and lots of people are ready and willing to throw down that it is full of problems, is unbalanced, doesn't work, and a load of additional charges without knowing anything about it. Many of these people are incredibly vocal about it.

• Some players simply haven't bothered to check it out.
  
• Some people are like me and don't believe in throwing out magic just because you have psionics; and thus use both.
  
• Some people expect it to be a complicated system and don't bother reading or learning about it because they don't think they have time; despite the fact that it's not harder or more complicated than dealing with core spell-casting.
  
• Some players/DMs argue it based on flawed notions of what is or isn't fantasy or it's new-agey or sci-fi; despite the fact that psionics and magic is pretty much interchangeable in esoteric lore.
  
• Some people rail against change or anything they perceive as different.

In all honesty, I've not found anyone who has a leg to stand on attacking the psionics system. Everyone that flat-out bans it, that I've met, have never had a legitimate reason; and more often than not was merely "because I said so" (which is a quick way to loose someone's respect).

Some people don't bother with it because they like the core classes and vancian-based casting fine; or have no interest in a point-based casting resource; and that's fine to. However, if I joined their group and wanted to play a Psion, I should be able to do so. If they have specific fluff-related concerns, I've noted that it's exceptionally easy to adjust for the fluff. If they don't know the rules, I can explain them. If they simply say no for no legitimate reason, then they loose my respect and I find another group on principal (since if that's the best they can offer over such a minor thing, then I probably won't like their games either; for a lot of reasons).

My idea of "better" is that psionic Naruto didn't only end up with a lot of non-human traits due to his exotic race, he could be tied up and gagged/under water/grappled/silenced/his limbs cut off and still be able to use his ninja tecquniques no problem.

Well he would need a half-a-dozen concentration checks for all of that, as well as likely being dead since his limbs are sliced off (blood loss or whatever); and so forth. Of course, if he's under-water, he might have been drown-healed too.

[Terazul]

Nitpick on the "blah he's not even human" psionic Naruto stuff. They actually cover the race choice in the build.

Jinchuuriki - Naruto is the vessel used by the fourth hokage to contain the destruction beast Kyuubi. In Naruto terms this makes Naruto a Jinchuuriki, a vessel which can attain enormous power from the demon it contains by resonating with the beast. In game terms this is why Naruto is an Empty Vessel rather than a human.

Both mechanically and flavorfully appropriate, no?

Edit: Coincidentally, Empty Vessel is just a Human with a few +2s to some skills and a bonus PP at level 1. Fun times.

[Optimystik]

Simply that it's better then Vancian for portraying most standard fantasy.

I agree, but they fixed that with UA, which provided two viable systems to pull magic away from the Vancian pothole.

They just happen to be slightly stronger than Vancian, which personally I have no problem with. The benefits of that power can easily be transferred to the party as a whole... and a caster player who is bent on hogging the limelight will do so whether you use Vancian, Spell Points or Recharge Magic.

[Lycanthromancer]

I agree, but they fixed that with UA, which provided two viable systems to pull magic away from the Vancian pothole.

They just happen to be slightly stronger than Vancian, which personally I have no problem with. The benefits of that power can easily be transferred to the party as a whole... and a caster player who is bent on hogging the limelight will do so whether you use Vancian, Spell Points or Recharge Magic.

A LOT more powerful, actually.

It's like you're a psion who casts from the wizard/sorcerer (or cleric, or druid) lists, has access to pretty much every spell on his list, has a LOT more 'spells known', can change those spells known every day, and can cast them all spontaneously. The only thing he can't do (except for sorcerers) is metamagic on the fly.

[olentu]

A LOT more powerful, actually.

It's like you're a psion who casts from the wizard/sorcerer (or cleric, or druid) lists, has access to pretty much every spell on his list, has a LOT more 'spells known', can change those spells known every day, and can cast them all spontaneously. The only thing he can't do (except for sorcerers) is metamagic on the fly.

I thought that the spell points section on metamagic specifically said that casters do not need to prepare spells with metamagic. Let me see if I can dig up what I was thinking of.

Edit: Ah here we are

In the spell point system, a DM has two options for how to adjudicate metamagic effects. In either case, casters need not specially prepare metamagic versions of their spells—they can simply choose to apply the metamagic effect at the time of casting. Doing this does not increase the spell’s casting time.

[Optimystik]

A LOT more powerful, actually.

It's like you're a psion who casts from the wizard/sorcerer (or cleric, or druid) lists, has access to pretty much every spell on his list, has a LOT more 'spells known', can change those spells known every day, and can cast them all spontaneously. The only thing he can't do (except for sorcerers) is metamagic on the fly.

An Erudite still has the stronger mechanic (if not the stronger list.) While a spell point wizard still has to choose his spells known at the start of the day, an Erudite can "choose" them on the fly by using them.

In addition, this variant narrows the gap between Generalists and specialized wizards. The specialized ones have one more spell known per spell level, but no additional spell points, which means no additional uses/day.

If you're truly worried about power, add the Vitalizing variant further down the page - a flavorful balancing factor that is much easier to apply to spell points than to Vancian. You can even add your own penalties, or raise the thresholds before they are applied. You can also apply the suggested use-limit on metamagic to rein that in as well. (I would suggest combining the use-limit on metamagic with the point-cost directly, rather than applying one then the other as they suggest.)

And to bring this tangent back to topic, you now have a system that fits with more fantasy systems than Vancian does. A Spell Point variant could much more easily apply to a Wheel of Time d20 than Vancian can, for instance.

[Oslecamo]

An Erudite still has the stronger mechanic (if not the stronger list.) While a spell point wizard still has to choose his spells known at the start of the day, an Erudite can "choose" them on the fly by using them.

Pun-Pun argument(aka it's allright because Pun-Pun is still stronger). Just because there's even cheesier cheese out there, it doesn't mean it's ok.

If you're truly worried about power, add the Vitalizing variant further down the page - a flavorful balancing factor that is much easier to apply to spell points than to Vancian. You can even add your own penalties, or raise the thresholds before they are applied.

Vitalizing variant? Flavourfull? Maybe. Balancing? Hmm, no.

That just makes it simply broken, because starting lv3 the cleric has lesser restoration to remove fatigue and exhaustion, wich means an absurdly high number of spells per day. Raise the treshold? Excellent, restoration recovers even more spell points! Even whitout restoration a couple hours of rest will recover 2/3 of your SP. No reason to hold back on your magic whatsoever.

At least the erudite needed to wait untill lv11 to get insanely high PP.

[Lycanthromancer]

Edit: Ah here we are

[Optimystik]

Pun-Pun argument(aka it's allright because Pun-Pun is still stronger). Just because there's even cheesier cheese out there, it doesn't mean it's ok.

How is it cheese? Pun-pun is overpowered because nothing can match him. But if you're introducing an entire spellcasting variant, you shouldn't be only giving it to the PCs.

Vitalizing variant? Flavourfull? Maybe. Balancing? Hmm, no.

That just makes it simply broken, because starting lv3 the cleric has lesser restoration to remove fatigue and exhaustion, wich means an absurdly high number of spells per day. Raise the treshold? Excellent, restoration recovers even more spell points! Even whitout restoration a couple hours of rest will recover 2/3 of your SP. No reason to hold back on your magic whatsoever.

That's an easy fix - spells that remove those conditions don't restore spell points. Only natural rest can do that.

(I agree that allowing restoration and heal to restore SP is a bit much.)

[Volkov]

You ever worn armor?

It hugely constrains your movements, and its hard to exactly replicate something you do unarmored. (Yes, even what the game calls light armor.)

Now, training in armor for the movements, that's where certain classes come in.....

The game lies about the restrictiveness of full-plate, which is so mobile you can do cartwheels and tap dance in it.

[Starbuck_II]

The game lies about the restrictiveness of full-plate, which is so mobile you can do cartwheels and tap dance in it.

Wait, it gives you the ability to do cartwheels. I can't do those so if I wear fullplate I learn how?

[Volkov]

Thing is, science fiction is extrapolating stories from what could very easily happen as a result of improvements of technology in the real world.

Fantasy is stuff that is completely fictional, and will probably never ever happen unless the rules of reality are completely changed.

In other words, sci fi is what we think might happen, whereas fantasy is what we wish would happen (but probably won't).

Psionics is purely in the realm of fantasy, since people can't pull ectoplasm from another dimension to create matter, nor can they fire heat-rays from their eyes. Not to put too fine a point on it, but it's magic, even if it isn't called as such. It's magic in the same way that Superman or Peter Pan flying around sans wings is magic.

Or are you saying that you're capable of mind-control, pushing around objects with your mind, divining the future by thinking real hard, or teleporting from place to place? Because I sure can't, and I don't know anyone who does.

Telling people it's 'too sci fi' is doing the phrase a complete and total disservice, thank you very much.

Red alert 2 is technically Sci-fi, and very, very little in it is possible or practical. (A tank that shoots lightning bolts of doom...even in the game it's worthless)

[Starbuck_II]

Don't forget randomly when you destroy a building: civilians can use other units powers.

The Tesla civi was awesome looking. He shot lightning out of his hands!

That made multi-player fun.

[Volkov]

But everyone hates Yuri's floating discs. If so much as one penetrates your defenses you are screwed royally. Then again everyone hates Yuri and his cheap @$$ psychic powers in general.

[Lycanthromancer]

Red alert 2 is technically Sci-fi, and very, very little in it is possible or practical. (A tank that shoots lightning bolts of doom...even in the game it's worthless)

Just because it's sci-fi doesn't mean it can't have fantasy elements...or vice versa.

Tech may be able to reproduce some of them (see Xenosaga), but it's still not psionics, as it's technology doing the eye-layzher thing (for example), which is no more psionics than firing a gun is telekinetic in nature (mind bulettes! [sic]). As abilities granted by psionics are (meta)physical impossibilities, they are purely in the realm of fantasy.

Just because someone adds magic to sci-fi-esque stories doesn't mean it's not magic.

But everyone hates Yuri's floating discs. If so much as one penetrates your defenses you are screwed royally. Then again everyone hates Yuri and his cheap @$$ psychic powers in general.

I know I don't like yuri. [/rimshot]

[Optimystik]

Red alert 2 is technically Sci-fi, and very, very little in it is possible or practical. (A tank that shoots lightning bolts of doom...even in the game it's worthless)

Of course it's not possible - there's still the whole "fiction" aspect.

But it is based on something real, i.e. a Tesla Coil. The idea was not yanked wholesale from the ether.

[Volkov]

Of course it's not possible - there's still the whole "fiction" aspect.

But it is based on something real, i.e. a Tesla Coil. The idea was not yanked wholesale from the ether.

It's pretty damned obvious the soviets took the Tesla coil tech from the real life Tesla coil, it's that as destructive the Real life tesla coil is to organisms, it's worthless against armored vehicles. But in Red alert, Tesla tech is a very potent tank killer.

[Optimystik]

It's pretty damned obvious the soviets took the Tesla coil tech from the real life Tesla coil, it's that as destructive the Real life tesla coil is to organisms, it's worthless against armored vehicles. But in Red alert, Tesla tech is a very potent tank killer.

Again... that's the "fiction" bit.
It's like FTL travel. Not scientifically possible at all, but crops up in sci-fi all the time.

[Volkov]

Again... that's the "fiction" bit.
It's like FTL travel. Not scientifically possible at all, but crops up in sci-fi all the time.

And C&C more or less ran soley on rule of cool the instant Red alert 1's expansion packs came out. (C&C 1 had some mild realism, RA 1 aftermath has teleporting, well armored, missile firing tanks)

[PhoenixRivers]

Again... that's the "fiction" bit.
It's like FTL travel. Not scientifically possible at all, but crops up in sci-fi all the time.

The same was said of supersonic travel. "Not possible" typically means "I'll get back to you on that"...

[Volkov]

The same was said of supersonic travel. "Not possible" typically means "I'll get back to you on that"...

Supersonic travel was thought to be beyond the capabilities of manned aircraft, they already could break the sound barrier with missiles and in some cases unguided bombs (the grand slam and tallboy bombs' terminal velocities exceeded the speed of sound) but doing this with a manned aircraft and keeping the pilot alive was much harder. Secondly there were no laws or widely accepted scientific theories that prevented supersonic travel. (Science's definition of theory is very different from the everyman's definition)

[The Glyphstone]

Again... that's the "fiction" bit.
It's like FTL travel. Not scientifically possible at all, but crops up in sci-fi all the time.

Quoted for truth. I just finished doing an English essay/presentation on pretty much this exact topic, looking at 'hard' and 'soft' science fiction, figuring out where the consensus lies on what turns on into the other (hint, it doesn't exist), and exploring where it came from. Spoilered because it's tangential to the discussion:

Spoiler

Show

For example, one of my focuses was H.G. Wells and The Time Machine; on its surface, the book is absurd...it prominently features physical time travel, accepted as impossible by relativity, does so without even bothering to include technobabble for an excuse, throws in some odds ideas about long-term evolutionary theory (likewise unsubstantiated, just "because", and is still considered one of the classic science fiction stories.

Basically, the end conclusion I came to is that no one can properly agree on what makes up science fiction, let alone what is 'hard' or 'soft'...I've got a quote by Heinlein that basically says he'd accept as 'hard' a story featuring psi powers and time travel if it was explained thoroughly enough. Comparatively, Aasimov regularly took the position that 'hard' fiction required being based off of known real-world science, or extrapolated from it.

"Science Fiction is like porn...you can't describe what it is, but you know it when you see it." (Mark Glassey)

[Optimystik]

The same was said of supersonic travel. "Not possible" typically means "I'll get back to you on that"...

While I generally agree with this, in this case it's different. It's not just a matter of "we haven't figured it out yet." It's mathematically impossible.

E=mc². Even if you eliminate mass, the highest speed you can get to is c - the speed of light. Even getting there would require an undefined amount of energy, never mind exceeding it.

To change it, we have to change the math itself.

EDIT: While we're on the topic of approaching singularities, it seems like this thread has hit one...

[The Big Dice]

In all honesty, I've not found anyone who has a leg to stand on attacking the psionics system. Everyone that flat-out bans it, that I've met, have never had a legitimate reason; and more often than not was merely "because I said so" (which is a quick way to loose someone's respect).

That's funny, because the only reason I've seen for people to support the psionics rules is them saying "Because I like them." There might be valid mechanical reasons for that, or there might be power gaming reasons for it. But neither has a leg to stand on in the face of setting verisimilitued and internal consistency if the GM say no psionics.

That said, I've never attacked the system itself. I don't have a problem with that at all. My problem is entirely about aesthetics of setting. And if a player doesn't like the organisations and structures of a campaign setting enough to be willing to go along with them, why is that player going to have any respect for the GM or the other players at the table?

Some people don't bother with it because they like the core classes and vancian-based casting fine; or have no interest in a point-based casting resource; and that's fine to. However, if I joined their group and wanted to play a Psion, I should be able to do so. If they have specific fluff-related concerns, I've noted that it's exceptionally easy to adjust for the fluff. If they don't know the rules, I can explain them. If they simply say no for no legitimate reason, then they loose my respect and I find another group on principal (since if that's the best they can offer over such a minor thing, then I probably won't like their games either; for a lot of reasons).

I'd see that as player entitlement and the worst kind of browbeating brinksmanship. After all, if I join a new group, I don't go trying to throw my weight around and change the established order of how they do things at their table. That's just disrespectful. Rules be damned, there are things like manners and respect to consider here.

What if the concerns aren't fluff related at all, but instead are setting related? I tend to go with guilds who regulate and monopolise the use of arcane magic, while churches do the same for divine magic. They are usually not monolithic multinationals, working on the principle of power isn't for sharing unless people want to pay our prices or it's a matter of national security. And then you come along demanding to play a Psion, even though I've made it clear that I'm not using those rules, nor am I using anything from Forgotten Realms or Eberron.

Causing a scene and having a tantrum about it makes you a problem player in my book, especially if you're the new guy. If you're going to make waves over certain books not being used at the table, what else are you going to make waves over?

[Oslecamo]

The same was said of supersonic travel. "Not possible" typically means "I'll get back to you on that"...

Not exactly. There's also the "It looked easy when we began..."

For example, a couple decades ago everybody was thinking that by now we would've colonized half the solar system by now. And have humanoid robots everywhere. And flying personal cars for the middle man.

Technically speaking, all of the above should be possible with our current science.

Pratically speaking, a LOT of tecnical details apeared that blocked those ideas. It's much easier to make nonhumanoid robots. We already have enough problems with ground based cars, let alone make them fly wich would make driving a 100 times more dangerous not to mention moreexpensive. We could get to Mars or make a colony on the moon, but who's gonna pay the astronomic bill for that?

Similarly, altough one day we may discover FTL travel, it would demand a complete rewrite of the laws of science as we know it, and then a rain of technical problems to make it viable. Unless we hit some kind of jackpot like the Internet, wich almost develops by itself, but those are exceptions, not the rule.

The Big Dice:+1 to what you said. A lot of groups just don't like certain rules and/or fluff, and that's part of the game, not a problem. Forcing the group to acept your vision when there's plenty of other choices out there to make your character is bad.

[The Glyphstone]

While I generally agree with this, in this case it's different. It's not just a matter of "we haven't figured it out yet." It's mathematically impossible.

E=mc². Even if you eliminate mass, the highest speed you can get to is c - the speed of light. Even getting there would require an undefined amount of energy, never mind exceeding it.

To change it, we have to change the math itself.

EDIT: While we're on the topic of approaching singularities, it seems like this thread has hit one...

Isn't this why most sci-fi writers nowadays include hyperdrive/warp drive/etc? There are theories, plausible or otherwise, about alternate dimensions...while it's impossible to change the speed of light in our universe, a manner of transmitting matter between dimensions could potentially allow us to travel to a universe where the speed of light was different, or E=mc^2 simply didn't apply. Zoom around for a bit at effective supralight, then drop back into normal reality.

[Optimystik]

Isn't this why most sci-fi writers nowadays include hyperdrive/warp drive/etc? There are theories, plausible or otherwise, about alternate dimensions...while it's impossible to change the speed of light in our universe, a manner of transmitting matter between dimensions could potentially allow us to travel to a universe where the speed of light was different, or E=mc^2 simply didn't apply. Zoom around for a bit at effective supralight, then drop back into normal reality.

That's the fiction portion again.

But it's not as crazy as you think!

[Lycanthromancer]

Isn't this why most sci-fi writers nowadays include hyperdrive/warp drive/etc? There are theories, plausible or otherwise, about alternate dimensions...while it's impossible to change the speed of light in our universe, a manner of transmitting matter between dimensions could potentially allow us to travel to a universe where the speed of light was different, or E=mc^2 simply didn't apply. Zoom around for a bit at effective supralight, then drop back into normal reality.

Technically you can slow light down, if only via refraction.

However, it IS possible.

If you could slow light down enough, then you could go faster than light. For a given value of 'light'.