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Thread: Psionic Bias?

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    Default Re: Psionic Bias?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    {Scrubbed}
    Isn't disliking the same as hating it?
    Kinda philosophical, but still.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    Isn't disliking the same as hating it?
    Kinda philosophical, but still.
    Of course it isn't. I'm lost as to why you might think it is, really.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheYoungKing View Post
    Those are static, you'll note, or involve die rolls. There isn't another deductible and modular point system in 3.5, unless you count arrows with Multishot. (And this is why I stayed away from guns in d20 Modern and from bows in 3.5. I'm messy on keeping track of those non-static numbers.)
    Tracking hp is exactly the same as tracking pp. Harder, even, because it tends to go up and down throughout the day, while pp just goes down (short of massive hax). There's virtually no practical difference between "well this orc hit me for 5 and this ogre hit me for 13" and "I used 5 pp on Touchsight and 13 pp on Decerebrate", in terms of bookkeeping.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheYoungKing View Post
    Which I find to be a lot more complex than just scratching fireball off your spell list and rolling for damage. Your damage rolls will be exactly the same for a fairly good period of time (levels) with fireball, versus a psionic power, where you'll roll differently and pay for it differently depending on how you augment it.

    I don't see how you could say that is easier, either for the player or the DM (who has to watch for player fudges, something my DM kept catching me on with my Gunslinger.)
    For the DM, magic has the same problem. Unless the DM is keeping very careful tabs on exactly how many spells of exactly which levels the Sorcerer is using, it's pretty easy to go over your allotment. Our DM doesn't even bother, he just leaves it to honour system, same with hp. If yours doesn't, just have the player tack pp-usage into his power calls. "Psionic Lion's Charge, 3 pp", "Energy Missile, 7 pp", "Decerebrate, 13 pp". That's no harder than reminding the DM what level each of your spells is.

    And if you're using blasty psi powers, I think you'll find that most of the time you're fully augmenting and that it works pretty much the same as for Fireball. At 7th level you're usually spending 7 pp on Energy Missile and doing 7d6+7. At 9th level you're usually spending 9pp and doing 9d6+9. At 15th level you're usually spending 15pp and doing 15d6+15.

    And since powers don't suffer from random caps like spells do (since you have to pay for that extra damage rather than get it for free), you'll often end up using a lot of your low-level powers through most of your career. They tend to scale much more smoothly and directly than Vancian magic, and a good power at level 5 is probably still a good power at level 15. This increases consistency, decreases memorization, makes the DM's job easier as he's more clear on what to expect, and I think is all around a good thing.
    Last edited by sonofzeal; 2010-04-02 at 12:55 PM.
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    Default Re: Psionic Bias?

    I think a lot of it has to do with familiarity. For example, lots of people don't bother adding a system like Incarnum to their games because they aren't familiar with it and don't know the rules as well as arcane magic. You'll have to constantly look up what things go where and do what. Its similar with psionics. People who don't know it will have trouble using it because they haven't learned it as well as the systems they ARE familiar with.

    When I got my hands on the XPH, I read through it and learned it well because I found it an intriguing and easier option than magic because I didn't have to constantly prepare new spells every day and mark them off when I used them, erase then when I switched out new ones, etc. Instead I just write them down once, and keep track of my PP. This seems a lot more simple, especially as I went with blaster for my first psion and tended to augment everything to the fullest so every power had the same cost. The cost changed with every level, but its similar to having to remember how many more spells you get at the next level.

    To me the difference is between having a massively smudged and difficult to read spell list and a massively smudge and difficult to read PP total. One is a huge list that demands changes whenever you level. The other is a small box of the same.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    Of course it isn't. I'm lost as to why you might think it is, really.
    If the end result in both cases is "not at my table," then what functional difference is there?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    If the end result in both cases is "not at my table," then what functional difference is there?
    There's probably little functional difference. But it doesn't matter, because the difference between hating and disliking is emotional. I don't hate psionics, I dislike them. Hating a D&D supplement would be beyound absurd.
    As to the end result itself - are you implying being against introducing psionics - or any other subsystem - into the game when someone suggests it is somehow wrong or too extreme?
    Last edited by Morty; 2010-04-02 at 01:33 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheYoungKing View Post
    Those are static, you'll note, or involve die rolls. There isn't another deductible and modular point system in 3.5, unless you count arrows with Multishot. (And this is why I stayed away from guns in d20 Modern and from bows in 3.5. I'm messy on keeping track of those non-static numbers.)
    They're not absolutely static bonuses. Hit points function pretty much the same as power points, and power attack varies depending on on the level of the attacker and how much BAB/AC you dump in (and that's just as fiddly as augmenting powers). But really, all of these involve some math, and over time you might memorize how they change. The same thing happens with psionic powers. A 7th level psion puts 7 power points into Crystal Shard and gets 7d6 damage, that's the same as a fireball of that level. Some are a bit harder: +1 to AC and saves for one power point; +1 additional/3 power points, but we are all able to cope with odd scaling like that in magic missile or similar spells.


    Which I find to be a lot more complex than just scratching fireball off your spell list and rolling for damage. Your damage rolls will be exactly the same for a fairly good period of time (levels) with fireball, versus a psionic power, where you'll roll differently and pay for it differently depending on how you augment it.
    Psionic classes aren't very different from a sorcerer, is keeping a running tally of how many sorcerer spells used per day much harder than a running tally of expended power points? Wizards have a different challenge though, they have to dig through a massive book of spells every day and cherry pick the best ones for the situation, and then apply any meta magic they want to the spells. In a way, they're rewarded for their prep time with that quick check-off during combat. As a trade off, players of psions or sorcerers will probably become familiar with their dramatically smaller spell lists and won't need to spend as much time figuring out the effects of a spell. Sure, the best spells a Wizard will know will probably be the ones they prepare every day, but in the situations where they might need a very specific spell on their list they don't have to spend time wishing they'd prepared 3 Overland Flights rather than 3 Polymorphs that day.


    I don't see how you could say that is easier, either for the player or the DM (who has to watch for player fudges, something my DM kept catching me on with my Gunslinger.)
    I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here, but here's what I'm getting: your DM was correcting you when you did something wrong with a mechanic you were inexperienced in? Well, the DM is the rules arbiter so I guess he was doing a good job. I've had that happen with plenty of little quirks in the game. If a DM is not confident in his/her knowledge of the system I don't object to disallowing it. I do think that Psionics are easier to introduce a new player to than Vancian Casting.

    EDIT: And I love how everyone is implying I'm an idiot who can't find the right dice size simply because I find power points to have more bookkeeping.
    Now I'm really confused... your post is the only one I've seen that mentions dice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alleine View Post
    I think a lot of it has to do with familiarity. For example, lots of people don't bother adding a system like Incarnum to their games because they aren't familiar with it and don't know the rules as well as arcane magic. You'll have to constantly look up what things go where and do what. Its similar with psionics. People who don't know it will have trouble using it because they haven't learned it as well as the systems they ARE familiar with.
    It doesn't help that Incarnum mechanics are a bit convoluted. Fun, but troublesome.
    Last edited by InkEyes; 2010-04-02 at 01:51 PM.

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    Default Re: Psionic Bias?

    {Scrubbed}

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    {Scrubbed}
    d12 vs d20, and d8 vs d10, seem to be the ones that give people trouble. Similar shapes are similar.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    There's probably little functional difference. But it doesn't matter, because the difference between hating and disliking is emotional. I don't hate psionics, I dislike them. Hating a D&D supplement would be beyound absurd.
    As to the end result itself - are you implying being against introducing psionics - or any other subsystem - into the game when someone suggests it is somehow wrong or too extreme?
    I wasn't 'implying' anything. I was trying to understand your position.

    Why do you dislike psionics? Is there anything behind it besides sheer emotion?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    I wasn't 'implying' anything. I was trying to understand your position.

    Why do you dislike psionics? Is there anything behind it besides sheer emotion?
    Like many people, I dislike psionic flavor because I don't think it meshes very well with the fantasy settings I enjoy. It can be changed, but I'm definetly not a fan of the mechanic side of psionics either - I don't like per-day power points. I don't really get what you mean by "sheer emotion".
    Last edited by Morty; 2010-04-02 at 02:11 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    I don't really get what you mean by "sheer emotion".
    As you hadn't supplied your reasons, I assumed the dislike was emotional - "gut" if you will.

    Anyway, you're entitled to your opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sonofzeal View Post
    d8 vs d10, .
    I once did that for most of a session.

    It was the first combat in the campaign in a LONG time (realtime), and I forgot that a Halberd isn't d8 damage.

    For about half of the war.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    As you hadn't supplied your reasons, I assumed the dislike was emotional - "gut" if you will.

    Anyway, you're entitled to your opinion.
    Fair enough.
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    Part of the bookkeeping is definitely familiarity. If you already know what all your spells do and have an idea of what you need, then deciding what spells you're going to prepare in the morning is easy, but it's almost certainly a daunting task the first time(s) you do it. Once you've done that, your bookkeeping for the rest of the day is a binary operation, either you have the spell or you don't.

    For Psionics, it's reversed. You always have the same powers available, but you have to choose on the fly how much power to pump into them. It's actually kind of misleading to think of the flexibility as difficult bookkeeping, because, as mentioned earlier, for the most part, you'll either be hitting the minimum or maximum augments possible with your powers of choice. Yes, there are situations that may be better served by an in between choice, but for the most part, you can get away with the binary and still be decent. Familiarity with the system as a whole is obviously rewarded in pp efficiency, but the same can be said with magic and slot efficiency.

    Since spells are more familiar to most people, it's easy to think of it as the way things have always been done, so the amount of choice you have when activating a psionic power seems more daunting when compared to spellcasting.

    *Spellcasting in the above is obviously used to mean vancian spellcasting. Spont casters are a different matter.

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    The basic issue with the fluff is pretty simple:

    How did this warrant a whole new system?

    If they wanted to present a variant magic system, they could have done so.

    Instead, they spent the whole edition subscribing to the myth that every meaningful piece of fluff has to be echoed in the rules.

    As a system, it's nice, elegant, easy to use, and better balanced. Since it's here, it's worth keeping.

    But the fluff behind it utterly fails to justify its existence.

    Yes, you can re-write the fluff so that your psion is actually a sorcerer. But that's the biggest problem with the fluff. The fact that you can do that indicates that you've written two different systems to do the same thing.
    Last edited by lesser_minion; 2010-04-02 at 03:50 PM.

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    I don't really see the arguments around the idea that the fluff does not support it's existence. What fluff supports the existence of the Gods? Did they create themselves or were they always there? What's the fluff behind Vancian magic?

    Basically, from where I see it, it's DnD. Some much stuff is just handwaved that it is sort of pointless to argue against mechanics because of fluff. Just my opinion though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lesser_minion View Post
    Yes, you can re-write the fluff so that your psion is actually a sorcerer. But that's the biggest problem with the fluff. The fact that you can do that indicates that you've written two different systems to do the same thing.
    Why the heck would I rewrite the fluff? It's my favorite part.

    You can keep your breakdancing, poo-flinging wizards and their pet toads. I'll be over here with my pet rock, breaking the laws of physics by idly contemplating them.

    And don't get me started on Vancian Alzheimer's, I've had numerous threads on that one already.
    Last edited by Optimystik; 2010-04-02 at 04:02 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    Like many people, I dislike psionic flavor because I don't think it meshes very well with the fantasy settings I enjoy.
    Bending the universe to your will through the power of your mind isn't fantasy? I'm confused.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lycanthromancer View Post
    Bending the universe to your will through the power of your mind isn't fantasy? I'm confused.
    Needs moar bat poo.

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    A D&D wizard is more like the alchemists from FMA in flavour than most spellcasters (rather than raw willpower, to cast lightning bolt they have to create a spark through mundane means and amplify the reaction). And even they don't have that weird thing where they have to encode each spell and can only cast it a specific number of times. Seems almost like Magic From Technology to me.

    On the other hand, psionics has mechanics which work like every other implementation of magic ever in a system which isn't D&D. A character can make his fireball stronger by putting more force into it (rather than their strength following an exact formula). And they can just keep zapping a guy over and over until they're too tired to cast any other spells.

    What's weird about using diamonds and rubies to store magical energy anyway?
    Last edited by Prime32; 2010-04-02 at 04:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zergrusheddie View Post
    I don't really see the arguments around the idea that the fluff does not support it's existence. What fluff supports the existence of the Gods? Did they create themselves or were they always there? What's the fluff behind Vancian magic?
    Those aren't exactly the same thing, are they?

    The existence of gods is a fluff element. It's just there. The existence of psionic characters is a fluff element - it just so happens that there are psionic characters.

    But those aren't rules.

    Things that do need to be justified are complete new subsystems. Like psionics, like incarnum, and like binding.

    The existing magic rules are not good rules, but they wouldn't be any worse at portraying psionics than they are at portraying magic. However, they would suck even more horribly at portraying a totemist or a binder.

    That's why incarnum is justified in the fluff and why binding is justified in the fluff, but psionics aren't.

    The psionics system works as a variant magic/psionics system, and it does it very well. But the differences between magic and psionics aren't significant enough to justify its existence.

    Simply put, psionics and magic are similar enough that one subsystem could have been used for both, so using two is just bad design.
    Last edited by lesser_minion; 2010-04-02 at 04:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lesser_minion View Post
    Those aren't exactly the same thing, are they?

    The existence of gods is a fluff element. It's just there. The existence of psionic characters is a fluff element - it just so happens that there are psionic characters.

    But those aren't rules.

    Things that do need to be justified are complete new subsystems. Like psionics, like incarnum, and like binding.

    The existing magic rules are not good rules, but they wouldn't be any worse at portraying psionics than they are at portraying magic. However, they would suck even more horribly at portraying a totemist or a binder.

    That's why incarnum is justified in the fluff and why binding is justified in the fluff, but psionics aren't.

    The psionics system works as a variant magic/psionics system, and it does it very well. But the differences between magic and psionics aren't significant enough to justify its existence.
    I think psionics justifies its own existence simply by being a better system in every conceivable way (and I'm not the only one who thinks so, judging by half the board around here and elsewhere). The only reason it's not a replacement to Vancian magic is because people are used to it, and it's been a part of D&D from the beginning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lycanthromancer View Post
    Bending the universe to your will through the power of your mind isn't fantasy? I'm confused.
    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    Needs moar bat poo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lycanthromancer View Post
    I think psionics justifies its own existence simply by being a better system in every conceivable way (and I'm not the only one who thinks so, judging by half the board around here and elsewhere).
    I'm not disputing that it's a superior system, or that it's worth keeping now that it's here. I'm pointing out that it's simply bad design to use two subsystems for what is basically one thing.

    New rules for incarnum were worth the effort. New rules for binding were worth the effort. Psionics less so.

    Note that there isn't even a problem with writing fluff to suit the needs of your crunch. Game becomes unbalanced if you can use true seeing through a crystal ball? Fine, make up some BS about True Seeing being at the pinnacle of mortal magic.
    Last edited by lesser_minion; 2010-04-02 at 04:31 PM.

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    And this thread was going so well without "arcane magic is bat poo" arguments.
    Last edited by Morty; 2010-04-02 at 04:32 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lesser_minion View Post
    I'm not disputing that it's a superior system, or that it's worth keeping now that it's here. I'm pointing out that it's simply bad design to use two subsystems for what is basically one thing.
    Better than just having one really bad system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    And this thread was going so well without "arcane magic is bat poo" arguments.
    The fireball spell requires a ball of bat poo and sulphur to cast. In other words a psion channels raw energy, while a wizard relies on primitive gunpowder. Which fits better into a fantasy setting again?
    Last edited by Prime32; 2010-04-02 at 04:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    Like many people, I dislike psionic flavor because I don't think it meshes very well with the fantasy settings I enjoy. It can be changed, but I'm definetly not a fan of the mechanic side of psionics either - I don't like per-day power points. I don't really get what you mean by "sheer emotion".
    Actually, I think it goes back to choices made in the first iteration of D&D psionics, that continues to this day. Namely, the names.

    In AD&D, starting fires with your mind is called "Molecular Agitation." Healing people was called "Cellular Adjustment." Seeing something at a distance was called "Clairvoyance." Seeing something before it happened was called "Precognition."

    In Valdemar, a relatively standard-type fantasy setting, psionics is everywhere. It's called "Mind Magic". "Molecular Agitation" is called "Firestarting". "Cellular Adjustment" is called "Healing". "Clairvoyance" is called "Farseeing." "Precognition" is called "Foreseeing."

    The names are a lot more fantasy in feeling, and fit in better with the usual pseudo-classical cosmologies of game worlds.
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    Morty's Avatar

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    Default Re: Psionic Bias?

    Quote Originally Posted by Prime32 View Post
    The fireball spell requires a ball of bat poo and sulphur to cast.
    And that justifies equaling all arcane magic with using bat extrement? Curious. Besides, if refluffing psionics is so easy, what's so hard about saying that arcane magic doesn't require bat poo?
    Last edited by Morty; 2010-04-02 at 04:33 PM.
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