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Thread: Psionic Bias?
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2010-04-02, 04:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Psionic Bias?
Last edited by Prime32; 2010-04-02 at 04:35 PM.
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2010-04-02, 04:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-04-02, 04:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Psionic Bias?
It's just a bad joke that gets repeated over and over again by people who don't like the system. The fact that it isn't the whole system and that it isn't even compulsory isn't going to stop people, unfortunately.
See also virtually any person complaining about something they don't like, ever.
It's an absolutely tiny artefact from a time when somebody found it funny. It is not that important, and it certainly isn't crucial. You could easily ignore the line about what the components are and stick with how much they cost.
This is hardly something that breaks an argument, the bat poo element is virtually inconsequential. Like the drugs that teach people martial arts in Exalted.Last edited by lesser_minion; 2010-04-02 at 04:43 PM.
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2010-04-02, 04:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Psionic Bias?
Originally Posted by Prime32
Originally Posted by lesser minion
Originally Posted by Tinydwarfman
Really, I get it that people prefer power points to spell slots and I don't care what others use in their games, I'm just tired of the "bat poo" arguments or blanket "psionics is Just Better, OK" statements.Last edited by Morty; 2010-04-02 at 04:45 PM.
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2010-04-02, 04:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Psionic Bias?
Wanna test it? Propose replacing all the specific material components with generic "Material component: these are found in your components pouch. You must have a free hand to manipulate these components in order to cast your spell." Put a stopwatch to the time until somebody responds with a complaint that you are "removing the flavor and mystery from magic", nevermind that making the components generic makes waaaaay more sense than the infinite component pouch that contains everything from bits of amber to rare earths to, yes, bat excrement to live spiders..
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2010-04-02, 04:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Psionic Bias?
Basically, Vancian magic makes very little sense to me unless there are justifications involving ancient technology being mistaken for magic or the like. And that's not just flavour, that's the way the whole system works.
Last edited by Prime32; 2010-04-02 at 04:48 PM.
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2010-04-02, 04:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Psionic Bias?
Why not use the "you cast the spell during preparation and finish it during casting" explanation that's right there in SRD?
Originally Posted by tyckspoonLast edited by Morty; 2010-04-02 at 04:51 PM.
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2010-04-02, 04:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Psionic Bias?
Go ahead.
Morty:
Except you don't have to refluff magic because material components are a tiny part of it that noone even cares about.
Really, I get it that people prefer power points to spell slots and I don't care what others use in their games, I'm just tired of the "bat poo" arguments or blanket "psionics is Just Better, OK" statements.
Remember these powers are spontaneously appearly in their youth: they would never know unless they ate a spider and suddenly climbed walls.
There is a fluff issue here that is really weird.
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2010-04-02, 04:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-04-02, 04:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Psionic Bias?
Last edited by Prime32; 2010-04-02 at 04:55 PM.
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2010-04-02, 04:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Psionic Bias?
It's just one line in the spell's description. Yes, I agree that Socrerers requiring magic components doesn't make much sense, but it's extremely easy to just ignore. You don't even have to houserule anything. I really don't get why people get so fixated on it.
Originally Posted by Prime32Last edited by Morty; 2010-04-02 at 04:59 PM.
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2010-04-02, 04:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Psionic Bias?
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2010-04-02, 04:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Psionic Bias?
Why can't he just prepare 50 1st-level spells then with the same amount of energy? And why does he forget spells when he casts them?
Seriously, it feels more like he's loading a bunch of guns than anything. When I tried to introduce some friends to D&D, the ones playing spellcasters kept getting confused or gave up because the way they used magic made no sense.Last edited by Prime32; 2010-04-02 at 05:00 PM.
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2010-04-02, 04:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Psionic Bias?
Hmm, I've thought about it and it isn't really technology, but Techno magic-logy.
Lightning bolt uses Static Charges to shoot the spell.
Fireball uses a mini-dynamite charge.
Scry: archiac TV (no, really read the materials).Last edited by Starbuck_II; 2010-04-02 at 05:03 PM.
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2010-04-02, 05:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Psionic Bias?
Once a wizard prepares a spell, it remains in her mind as a nearly cast spell until she uses the prescribed components to complete and trigger it or until she abandons it. Certain other events, such as the effects of magic items or special attacks from monsters, can wipe a prepared spell from a character’s mind.
Now, I want to make one thing clear - I'm not saying you should like Vancian casting because I tell you to. I leave it to those people who tell others they should like psionics because of how obviously superior it is. But I will argue that it's somehow nonsensical, "not magic" or objectively worse.Last edited by Morty; 2010-04-02 at 05:12 PM.
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2010-04-02, 05:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Psionic Bias?
Because he had already expended the juice to cast the spell when he prepared his spells. He could have prepared more 1st level spells if he was willing to allocate more juice to them.
He could use the same energy to prepare 1st-level spells, just not that many. The workings of spell slots are bizarre, arcane, and insane. They aren't an integral part of Vancian magic, and they bear little relation to how magic worked in the Dying Earth series.
Basically, don't ask, and don't blame Vance for something that wasn't his fault.Last edited by lesser_minion; 2010-04-02 at 05:15 PM.
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2010-04-02, 05:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-04-02, 05:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Psionic Bias?
This is just how I see the differences.
Psionics use internal energy. This internal energy supply is increased by training. (This is the form of magic used by most fiction and video games. D&D calls it psionics to separate it from D&D's magic.)
Arcane magic uses the ambient energy of the world. This is where the sympathetic connection of material components comes from. Preparation-based casters (such as wizards) cast the spell ahead of time, except for the last bit and lose all of that prework when they actually “cast” the spell. Hence the losing of the spell.
Divine magic uses magic from an external source. Each divine spell requires a specific ritual to be performed when memorized, and when cast they need to repeat that ritual before being given that spell again.
I don't have a good way to explain spontaneous casters. They just work, kinda like magic.
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2010-04-02, 05:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Psionic Bias?
As an aside, does any fantasy literature beside the original Jack Vance stuff and D&D books use vancian spellcasting?
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2010-04-02, 05:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Psionic Bias?
Seriously though, arguing that psionics is too much bookkeeping is lolwut.
It's tiny numbers. Subtracting seven from twenty is not arduous.
Personally, I've been playing a Psion for all of one session and I already like it a great deal more. The flexibility, combined with the lack of verbal and somatic components really make it feel a lot more like magic.Avatar by K penguin. Sash by Damned1rishman.
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2010-04-02, 06:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Psionic Bias?
I like both Vancian arcane/divine casting and 3.5 Psionics, and they coexist rather peacefully in my campaigns.
And I've a feeling this is going to turn into another one of those ToB threads.
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2010-04-02, 06:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Psionic Bias?
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2010-04-02, 06:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Psionic Bias?
The Discworld series. The fluff for casters and psykers in Warhammer and 40k could have been handled this way in some cases as well - particularly the Eldar seer runes and the WFB casters.
A few JRPGs as well - djinn in Golden Sun have elements of Vancian magic.
Personally, I've been playing a Psion for all of one session and I already like it a great deal more. The flexibility, combined with the lack of verbal and somatic components really make it feel a lot more like magic.
(This is the form of magic used by most fiction and video games. D&D calls it psionics to separate it from D&D's magic.)
Films generally portray magic as consequence-based (which fits better with Vancian than spell points, in that you can view the 'preparation' as coming up with a way around the consequence).
Originally Posted by AslanCrossLast edited by lesser_minion; 2010-04-02 at 06:13 PM.
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2010-04-02, 06:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-04-02, 06:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Psionic Bias?
I'm not going to argue that it meshes well, but I will make a quick point about settings you enjoy. Read some of the Deryni books. They are damn good, and do have psionics to some extent, unless I'm getting them mixed up with something else. And they feel like fantasy.
On an unrelated note, I wouldn't say the psionics powers have any right to be anywhere near a sci fi setting. Space opera yes, space fantasy yes, but sci-fi? No. Plus, the names could be pushed a lot further towards that side of the spectrum. Psionic imitators of Shadow Evocation or similar really need to be called Placebo.I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
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2010-04-02, 06:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Psionic Bias?
To be fair, this was parodying D&D. As awesome as Discworld is, I'm not sure this counts.
Quite probably stemmed straight from D&D as well.
It feels artificial. Not artificial in an alien sort of way, but like the password required to enter your Facebook account.
Really, most spells feel like this too. They feel far more tech-like than magical, whereas psionics feels organic, like magic ought to, IMO.
Then again, it's definitely a subjective quality.Last edited by Lycanthromancer; 2010-04-02 at 06:19 PM.
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2010-04-02, 06:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Psionic Bias?
Originally Posted by lycanthromancer
And to an extent, magic should feel like technology. You're taking an established law of the universe and turning it to your advantage in both cases.
I don't find Vancian magic to be a bad idea, I just think it's not something that should be in a roleplaying game on its own - in the same way as full-blown ritualists who can only cast spells by dancing around naked under an open sky wouldn't be suitable.
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2010-04-02, 06:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Psionic Bias?
Oh, me neither. I've played plenty of wizards and enjoyed them.
Originally Posted by Lesser MinionAvatar by K penguin. Sash by Damned1rishman.
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2010-04-02, 06:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Psionic Bias?
I don't really find requirements like that to be any less weird than having to speak an incantation and being forced to not repeat that incantation until you next go off and make an offering to the spirits or whatever.
Or, for that matter, only being able to cast spells under the full moon, or not being able to change shape in sunlight, or having your spells lapse every winter solstice.Last edited by lesser_minion; 2010-04-02 at 07:00 PM.
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2010-04-02, 07:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Psionic Bias?
I do, occaisionally, (especially with the 3.5 emphasis on the necessity of verbal componants), feel the need to ask;
"Okay, so...who are you actually talking to?"
I'm pretty sure it reminds me of something from a David Eddings series, where 'magic users' are actually just petitioning spirits and/or gods/etc to intercede.