Psionic Bias?

[Prime32]

And that justifies equaling all arcane magic with using bat extrement? Curious.

Read my edit.

The fireball spell requires a ball of bat poo and sulphur to cast. In other words a psion channels raw energy, while a wizard relies on primitive gunpowder. Which fits better into a fantasy setting again?

And to prevent this being lost:

A D&D wizard is more like the alchemists from FMA in flavour than most spellcasters (rather than raw willpower, to cast lightning bolt they have to create a spark through mundane means and amplify the reaction). And even they don't have that weird thing where they have to encode each spell and can only cast it a specific number of times. Seems almost like Magic From Technology to me.

On the other hand, psionics has mechanics which work like every other implementation of magic ever in a system which isn't D&D. A character can make his fireball stronger by putting more force into it (rather than their strength following an exact formula). And they can just keep zapping a guy over and over until they're too tired to cast any other spells.

What's weird about using diamonds and rubies to store magical energy anyway?

[Tinydwarfman]

And that justifies equaling all arcane magic with using bat extrement? Curious. Besides, if refluffing psionics is so easy, what's so hard about saying that arcane magic doesn't require bat poo?

I dunno, maybe because all of your 'psionics fluff is bad' arguments crumble when you have to refluff magic. (not that you say that, but it seems to be a popular argument)

[lesser_minion]

And that justifies equaling all arcane magic with using bat extrement? Curious. Besides, if refluffing psionics is so easy, what's so hard about saying that arcane magic doesn't require bat poo?

It's just a bad joke that gets repeated over and over again by people who don't like the system. The fact that it isn't the whole system and that it isn't even compulsory isn't going to stop people, unfortunately.

See also virtually any person complaining about something they don't like, ever.

I dunno, maybe because all of your 'psionics fluff is bad' arguments crumble when you have to refluff magic. (not that you say that, but it seems to be a popular argument)

It's an absolutely tiny artefact from a time when somebody found it funny. It is not that important, and it certainly isn't crucial. You could easily ignore the line about what the components are and stick with how much they cost.

This is hardly something that breaks an argument, the bat poo element is virtually inconsequential. Like the drugs that teach people martial arts in Exalted.

[Morty]

Read my edit.

Instead of directing you to my own edit, I ask the same question again: what's so hard about refluffing Fireball so that it doesn't require bat poo if refluffing psionics is so easy?

It's just a bad joke that gets repeated over and over again by people who don't like the system. The fact that it isn't the whole system and that it isn't even compulsory isn't going to stop people, unfortunately.

Too true.

I dunno, maybe because all of your 'psionics fluff is bad' arguments crumble when you have to refluff magic. (not that you say that, but it seems to be a popular argument)

Except you don't have to refluff magic because material components are a tiny part of it that noone even cares about.
Really, I get it that people prefer power points to spell slots and I don't care what others use in their games, I'm just tired of the "bat poo" arguments or blanket "psionics is Just Better, OK" statements.

[tyckspoon]

Except you don't have to refluff magic because material components are a tiny part of it that noone even cares about.

Wanna test it? Propose replacing all the specific material components with generic "Material component: these are found in your components pouch. You must have a free hand to manipulate these components in order to cast your spell." Put a stopwatch to the time until somebody responds with a complaint that you are "removing the flavor and mystery from magic", nevermind that making the components generic makes waaaaay more sense than the infinite component pouch that contains everything from bits of amber to rare earths to, yes, bat excrement to live spiders..

[Prime32]

Instead of directing you to my own edit, I ask the same question again: what's so hard about refluffing Fireball so that it doesn't require bat poo if refluffing psionics is so easy?

Basically, Vancian magic makes very little sense to me unless there are justifications involving ancient technology being mistaken for magic or the like. And that's not just flavour, that's the way the whole system works.

[Morty]

Basically, Vancian magic makes very little sense to me unless there are justifications involving ancient technology being mistaken for magic or the like. And that's not just flavour, that's the way the whole system works.

Why not use the "you cast the spell during preparation and finish it during casting" explanation that's right there in SRD?

Wanna test it? Propose replacing all the specific material components with generic "Material component: these are found in your components pouch. You must have a free hand to manipulate these components in order to cast your spell." Put a stopwatch to the time until somebody responds with a complaint that you are "removing the flavor and mystery from magic", nevermind that making the components generic makes waaaaay more sense than the infinite component pouch that contains everything from bits of amber to rare earths to, yes, bat excrement to live spiders..

And how is that different from people who adamantly refuse use any fluff for psionics other than what's found in XPH and who are widely proclaimed as unreasonable?

[Starbuck_II]

Ha Haa! Guys, can I sig this please?

Go ahead.
Morty:

Except you don't have to refluff magic because material components are a tiny part of it that noone even cares about.
Really, I get it that people prefer power points to spell slots and I don't care what others use in their games, I'm just tired of the "bat poo" arguments or blanket "psionics is Just Better, OK" statements.

I disagree, it is the rules for vancian world. The fact that Sorcerors innately know they need to eat spiders to climb walls is kinda freaky...
Remember these powers are spontaneously appearly in their youth: they would never know unless they ate a spider and suddenly climbed walls.
There is a fluff issue here that is really weird.

[lesser_minion]

Wanna test it? Propose replacing all the specific material components with generic "Material component: these are found in your components pouch. You must have a free hand to manipulate these components in order to cast your spell." Put a stopwatch to the time until somebody responds with a complaint that you are "removing the flavor and mystery from magic", nevermind that making the components generic makes waaaaay more sense than the infinite component pouch that contains everything from bits of amber to rare earths to, yes, bat excrement to live spiders..

That doesn't make the named material components into a key element of the system.

And if somebody wants to have to eat a live spider to cast Spider Climb, then they still can.

[Prime32]

Why not use the "you cast the spell during preparation and finish it during casting" explanation that's right there in SRD?

I think you missed what I was saying.

It doesn't make sense that a guy can cast four 1st-level spells then not be able to cast any more, but still be able to cast 9th-level spells. And vice-versa and sideways.

[Morty]

Go ahead.
Morty:

I disagree, it is the rules for vancian world. The fact that Sorcerors innately know they need to eat spiders to climb walls is kinda freaky...
Remember these powers are spontaneously appearly in their youth: they would never know unless they ate a spider and suddenly climbed walls.
There is a fluff issue here that is really weird.

It's just one line in the spell's description. Yes, I agree that Socrerers requiring magic components doesn't make much sense, but it's extremely easy to just ignore. You don't even have to houserule anything. I really don't get why people get so fixated on it.

It doesn't make sense that a guy can cast four 1st-level spells then not be able to cast any more, but still be able to cast 9th-level spells.

Why? He prepared them in the morning, they stayed in their mind until he cast them, then he has to prepare them again. He prepared the 9th level spells and they're also in his mind until he casts them.

[Agrippa]

Basically, Vancian magic makes very little sense to me unless there are justifications involving ancient technology being mistaken for magic or the like. And that's not just flavour, that's the way the whole system works.

Simple then, it's not ancient technology that's been mistaken for magic, it's ancient to modern technology that just happen to be a form of magic.

[Prime32]

Why? He prepared them in the morning, they stayed in their mind until he cast them, then he has to prepare them again. He prepared the 9th level spells and they're also in his mind until he casts them.

Why can't he just prepare 50 1st-level spells then with the same amount of energy? And why does he forget spells when he casts them?

Seriously, it feels more like he's loading a bunch of guns than anything. When I tried to introduce some friends to D&D, the ones playing spellcasters kept getting confused or gave up because the way they used magic made no sense.

[Starbuck_II]

Hmm, I've thought about it and it isn't really technology, but Techno magic-logy.
Lightning bolt uses Static Charges to shoot the spell.
Fireball uses a mini-dynamite charge.
Scry: archiac TV (no, really read the materials).

[Morty]

Why can't he just prepare 50 1st-level spells then with the same amount of energy? And why does he forget spells when he casts them?

Once a wizard prepares a spell, it remains in her mind as a nearly cast spell until she uses the prescribed components to complete and trigger it or until she abandons it. Certain other events, such as the effects of magic items or special attacks from monsters, can wipe a prepared spell from a character’s mind.

It's in the SRD. A wizard doesn't "forget" a spell. It's cast during preparation and finished during the actual casting.
Now, I want to make one thing clear - I'm not saying you should like Vancian casting because I tell you to. I leave it to those people who tell others they should like psionics because of how obviously superior it is. But I will argue that it's somehow nonsensical, "not magic" or objectively worse.

[lesser_minion]

I think you missed what I was saying.

It doesn't make sense that a guy can cast four 1st-level spells then not be able to cast any more, but still be able to cast 9th-level spells. And vice-versa and sideways.

Because he had already expended the juice to cast the spell when he prepared his spells. He could have prepared more 1st level spells if he was willing to allocate more juice to them.

Why can't he just prepare 50 1st-level spells then with the same amount of energy? And why does he forget spells when he casts them?

He could use the same energy to prepare 1st-level spells, just not that many. The workings of spell slots are bizarre, arcane, and insane. They aren't an integral part of Vancian magic, and they bear little relation to how magic worked in the Dying Earth series.

Basically, don't ask, and don't blame Vance for something that wasn't his fault.

[Lycanthromancer]

Ha Haa! Guys, can I sig this please?

Uh...yes? Stupid text limit.

[lightningcat]

This is just how I see the differences.
Psionics use internal energy. This internal energy supply is increased by training. (This is the form of magic used by most fiction and video games. D&D calls it psionics to separate it from D&D's magic.)
Arcane magic uses the ambient energy of the world. This is where the sympathetic connection of material components comes from. Preparation-based casters (such as wizards) cast the spell ahead of time, except for the last bit and lose all of that prework when they actually “cast” the spell. Hence the losing of the spell.
Divine magic uses magic from an external source. Each divine spell requires a specific ritual to be performed when memorized, and when cast they need to repeat that ritual before being given that spell again.

I don't have a good way to explain spontaneous casters. They just work, kinda like magic.

[nightwyrm]

As an aside, does any fantasy literature beside the original Jack Vance stuff and D&D books use vancian spellcasting?

[shadow_archmagi]

Seriously though, arguing that psionics is too much bookkeeping is lolwut.

It's tiny numbers. Subtracting seven from twenty is not arduous.


Personally, I've been playing a Psion for all of one session and I already like it a great deal more. The flexibility, combined with the lack of verbal and somatic components really make it feel a lot more like magic.

[AslanCross]

I like both Vancian arcane/divine casting and 3.5 Psionics, and they coexist rather peacefully in my campaigns.

And I've a feeling this is going to turn into another one of those ToB threads.

[lightningcat]

As an aside, does any fantasy literature beside the original Jack Vance stuff and D&D books use vancian spellcasting?

The High Magic of Mercedes Lackey's Obsidian Mountain Trilogy and Enduring Flame Trilogy. It can be used as either vancian or as an incantation type style of magic. The other two types of magic are definably not vancian.

[lesser_minion]

As an aside, does any fantasy literature beside the original Jack Vance stuff and D&D books use vancian spellcasting?

The Discworld series. The fluff for casters and psykers in Warhammer and 40k could have been handled this way in some cases as well - particularly the Eldar seer runes and the WFB casters.

A few JRPGs as well - djinn in Golden Sun have elements of Vancian magic.

Personally, I've been playing a Psion for all of one session and I already like it a great deal more. The flexibility, combined with the lack of verbal and somatic components really make it feel a lot more like magic.

How do verbal and somatic components make something feel less like magic...?

(This is the form of magic used by most fiction and video games. D&D calls it psionics to separate it from D&D's magic.)

Actually, it isn't. At-will, consequence-based, and ritual-based are all far more common outside of games.

Films generally portray magic as consequence-based (which fits better with Vancian than spell points, in that you can view the 'preparation' as coming up with a way around the consequence).

And I've a feeling this is going to turn into another one of those ToB threads.

Hopefully not.

[shadow_archmagi]

How do verbal and somatic components make something feel less like magic...?

I...

Don't know.

[Knaight]

Like many people, I dislike psionic flavor because I don't think it meshes very well with the fantasy settings I enjoy. It can be changed, but I'm definetly not a fan of the mechanic side of psionics either - I don't like per-day power points. I don't really get what you mean by "sheer emotion".

I'm not going to argue that it meshes well, but I will make a quick point about settings you enjoy. Read some of the Deryni books. They are damn good, and do have psionics to some extent, unless I'm getting them mixed up with something else. And they feel like fantasy.

On an unrelated note, I wouldn't say the psionics powers have any right to be anywhere near a sci fi setting. Space opera yes, space fantasy yes, but sci-fi? No. Plus, the names could be pushed a lot further towards that side of the spectrum. Psionic imitators of Shadow Evocation or similar really need to be called Placebo.

[Lycanthromancer]

The Discworld series.

To be fair, this was parodying D&D. As awesome as Discworld is, I'm not sure this counts.

The fluff for casters and psykers in Warhammer and 40k could have been handled this way in some cases as well - particularly the Eldar seer runes and the WFB casters.

A few JRPGs as well - djinn in Golden Sun have elements of Vancian magic.

Quite probably stemmed straight from D&D as well.

How do verbal and somatic components make something feel less like magic...?

It feels artificial. Not artificial in an alien sort of way, but like the password required to enter your Facebook account.

Really, most spells feel like this too. They feel far more tech-like than magical, whereas psionics feels organic, like magic ought to, IMO.

Then again, it's definitely a subjective quality.

[lesser_minion]

I...

Don't know.

It feels artificial. Not artificial in an alien sort of way, but like the password required to enter your Facebook account.

Really, most spells feel like this too. They feel far more tech-like than magical, whereas psionics feels organic, like magic ought to, IMO.

Then again, it's definitely a subjective quality.

But strictly regimented magic has been a part of fiction for a lot longer than 'organic' magic. Vancian magic is a very recent example, but arbitrary requirements on magic have been around for centuries. Superstitions stem from people's beliefs about how magic works.

And to an extent, magic should feel like technology. You're taking an established law of the universe and turning it to your advantage in both cases.

I don't find Vancian magic to be a bad idea, I just think it's not something that should be in a roleplaying game on its own - in the same way as full-blown ritualists who can only cast spells by dancing around naked under an open sky wouldn't be suitable.

[shadow_archmagi]

I don't find Vancian magic to be a bad idea

Oh, me neither. I've played plenty of wizards and enjoyed them.

But strictly regimented magic has been a part of fiction for a lot longer than 'organic' magic.

When I think of magic with rules, I think of things like "And the man was told he would have victory in battle if he killed the first living thing he saw when he returned, but when he came back from the battle his loyal wife was standing right there so he killed her maid instead but that was not good enough so he went blind"

[lesser_minion]

When I think of magic with rules, I think of things like "And the man was told he would have victory in battle if he killed the first living thing he saw when he returned, but when he came back from the battle his loyal wife was standing right there so he killed her maid instead but that was not good enough so he went blind"

I don't really find requirements like that to be any less weird than having to speak an incantation and being forced to not repeat that incantation until you next go off and make an offering to the spirits or whatever.

Or, for that matter, only being able to cast spells under the full moon, or not being able to change shape in sunlight, or having your spells lapse every winter solstice.

[Tiki Snakes]

I do, occaisionally, (especially with the 3.5 emphasis on the necessity of verbal componants), feel the need to ask;

"Okay, so...who are you actually talking to?"

I'm pretty sure it reminds me of something from a David Eddings series, where 'magic users' are actually just petitioning spirits and/or gods/etc to intercede.