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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Default Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroNumerous View Post
    Then by that reasoning Kratos would completely fail to kill even Baldr, as Fate can affect the gods and they aren't allowed to die by Kratos' hands.

    If plot-power is allowed for the Norse side, then Kratos needs someway to defy and/or become part of the fate that kills the gods. He can't do either one as an outsider.
    How?


    He defies it by simply being an outsider. The fate that was woven was done so in a world without Kratos. The time stream cannot be the same with the implementation of an outside source. That is an impossibility. It is no more possible than it is for -4 to be added to 2+2 and still have it equal 4. The Norse fate was implemented with no mind paid to any other mythology. If you introduce even a single element from another realm to it then you invite a domino of changes, any of which can drastically alter the events of Ragnorok or the deaths of the gods. The sheer rigidity of the norse time stream makes its power irrelevant.

    I don't really enjoy Kratos as a character, and I think the Norse Gods are awesome. But that doesn't change my feelings on the introduction of Kratos to the universe. He kills gods because that is what he does. Greek Gods are stronger and thus he shouldn't have trouble with Norse ones. Fate is just as weak a defense as it was in the GOW games.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lycan 01 View Post
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  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Default Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by Graymayre View Post
    Fate is just as weak a defense as it was in the GOW games.
    Depends on your interpretation of fate. Odin's death prophecy either boils down to (within the norse universe obviously):
    A) Odin will die at Fenris' hands (or mouth :P) no matter what else happens period ignoring everything else that ever might or can happen in this universe or any other.
    or
    B) Odin will die at Fenris' claws unless something from outside this universe intervenes.

    Both interpretations are perfectly valid given that this kind of crossover thing is completely ad hoc.

    Going by the rules outlined (no multi norse gods vs kratos, no plot power on either side) I'd have to go with the Norse Gods. Kratos is a strong guy (not a strong character mind you) but he can't even hold a candle to Thor, much less Odin. Mjolnir never misses and can level mountains.

    Regardless of any comparisons to Zeus' bolts (seeing as how comparing Norse to Greek and Norse to 'Greek in GoW' are two entirely separate things) Kratos is going to be hit and is going to be at minimum wounded by that thing...and Thor can throw it repeatedly. Never missing even once.

    And then even if Kratos gets lucky we still have Loki (could easily outsmart Kratos...while asleep and drunk without even trying) and Odin...who killed a giant then BUILT THE EARTH OUT OF IT. I'm not exactly sure how any mortal could hope to fight someone who killed an Earth sized giant then built the world out of his corpse...that's a bit beyond Kratos' abilities.

  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Default Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon

    The way I see it if Kratos found out that Odin could only be killed by Fenris's claws, then it would set Kratos off on a side quest to Rip Fenris's claws off. Thus gaining Kratos a fancy new weapon that is capable of Odin-slaying. (Insert similar for other Deity specfic death scenarios/weapons/circumstance)

  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Default Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon

    One could argue that Kratos doesn't defy Fate, but it is the Greeks who fail to do so. No one stops Kratos from killing Zues no matter how hard they try. And the Titans lose again.
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  5. - Top - End - #155
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    Default Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by Graymayre View Post
    Greek Gods are stronger and thus he shouldn't have trouble with Norse ones.
    What are you basing that on? Because as I understand it, the Greek Gods were severely weaker than the norse gods.

  6. - Top - End - #156
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    Default Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by Binks View Post
    Depends on your interpretation of fate. Odin's death prophecy either boils down to (within the norse universe obviously):
    A) Odin will die at Fenris' hands (or mouth :P) no matter what else happens period ignoring everything else that ever might or can happen in this universe or any other.
    or
    B) Odin will die at Fenris' claws unless something from outside this universe intervenes.

    Both interpretations are perfectly valid given that this kind of crossover thing is completely ad hoc.
    I have one big problem with this.

    Once you introduce the multiverse to a fate based world then its time stream becomes moot. an infinity of the infinity of realms would not only be able to enter the Norse Mythological land where this occurs at will, but they would also be completely dedicated to destroying it. It is impossible to avoid because an infinite number of universes that try also have a special power that lets them nullify fate. It's not merely a definite possibility, its an assured occurence.

    Since fate does not ever predict that event, or any event that should happen as such, the conclusion that is most easily made is that the universes can't interact with each other, and have no idea of their existences.

    Then Kratos is suddenly transported to the Norse Land. A land that never predicted him.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tim the Great View Post
    What are you basing that on? Because as I understand it, the Greek Gods were severely weaker than the norse gods.
    From the other posts in this thread and my own knowledge.

    Greek Gods are immortal and impervious to non-deitic damage. Norse Gods have to eat apples to stop from merely aging.

    Greek Gods (mostly Zeus) already beat their giants, and they did it when they were teenagers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lycan 01 View Post
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  7. - Top - End - #157
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    Default Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimmy
    Quote Originally Posted by Irritating-to-quote-reply-by Crimmy
    Originally Posted by Drakyn
    a guy who's part-god but definitely not a god

    Wrong. He's a human turned god. You could take it as a human who had at a certain point of time Godlike powers. Then he lost 'em. So back to a human, and only that. Not even close to being partially-god.

    a guy nevertheless. He fights full gods, people who are out of his weight class, and he wins through sheer badassness. He does not by any definition rate higher than Zeus on the Mohs scale of Godly Pwnage at the end of GoW II, but he beats him up.
    The Norse pantheon could then very well be less god-powered than the Olympians. But then, so was Kratos, and, as you said, he killed the fates and reversed his own death and beat the stuffing out of Zeus.

    In crude form:
    If
    Kratos < Olympians (godly cheese)
    But
    Kratos > Olympians (beating the living stuffing out of)
    Then
    Aesir < Olympians (godly cheese)
    Should not automatically equal
    Kratos > Aesir (beating the living stuffing out of)

    Wrong again. Kratos is human. Aesir are Lesser-Gods, by your definition. Therefore, Kratos < Aesir, and thus, he wins again.

    So, you've proven you can make a Princess Bride scene in this one. And making up facts, for that matter, because, as it has been stated before, Kratos is nothing but a human. Finito.

    I know this is a few pages back, but although a few people already went for your first comments on Krato's divine status (which was honestly sort of a side-grade to my original point, as at most he's got a bit of god blood in him and at least we can treat him as a human - all that matters is that he is, god-power-wise, lesser than what he's killing, which is true in both cases), I'm not sure if anyone examined your concluding remark there.
    What I was saying was that if Kratos is a human/demihuman, who is by definition, lesser than the Greek gods, but has proven himself capable of killing them through brute force, guts, and badassness, nothing precludes the Norse gods from ALSO being lesser than the Greek gods yet capable of putting up more of a fight than they did.
    It was an answer geared against the "Greek gods > Norse gods so Kratos > Norse gods" argument. Whether or not Kratos is a human or a demigod doesn't really change the argument here, either way he's got less god-juice than what he's killing. This is the aim of the point: whether or not the Greek pantheon has more juice than the Norse is irrelevant, because it seems to not necessarily reflect your ability to kick ass.
    Last edited by Drakyn; 2010-04-07 at 10:30 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #158
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    Default Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon

    Maybe Kratos IS the Ragnarok, and the fates foretold his coming. He could be the one to release the great wolf, ride in on the fire serpent, etc. If he is the one start the whole thing, then he would fit right into the fated end to those gods.

  9. - Top - End - #159
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    Default Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by Zen Monkey View Post
    Maybe Kratos IS the Ragnarok, and the fates foretold his coming. He could be the one to release the great wolf, ride in on the fire serpent, etc. If he is the one start the whole thing, then he would fit right into the fated end to those gods.
    So, the game ends with Baldr coming back and pounding Kratos's face in?

    Awesome.
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  10. - Top - End - #160
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    Default Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by chiasaur11 View Post
    So, the game ends with Baldr coming back and pounding Kratos's face in?

    Awesome.
    Baldr, his brother Hodr, Thor's sons Modi and Magni (the latter of which chucked away a giant's leg that was pinning Thor that none of the other gods could move...when he was three days old), and Odin's kids Vidarr (he of the wolf-tearing jaw-stomp) and Vali (who killed Hodr to properly avenge Baldr's death at one day old). There's going to be quite a few angry god-kids around after the end.
    Last edited by Drakyn; 2010-04-07 at 10:46 AM.

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    Default Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by Graymayre View Post
    Greek Gods are immortal and impervious to non-deitic damage. Norse Gods have to eat apples to stop from merely aging.

    Greek Gods (mostly Zeus) already beat their giants, and they did it when they were teenagers.
    Greek Gods lived on a pityful low mountain; to reach Norse Gods' domain you had to cross a Rainbow.
    Greek Gods were very often beaten by mere mortals in skill contests. Sometime, in their own field of competence. Try to beat Thor in one of his hobbies.
    Last edited by Killer Angel; 2010-04-07 at 11:14 AM.
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  12. - Top - End - #162
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    Default Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by Graymayre View Post
    Greek Gods are immortal and impervious to non-deitic damage. Norse Gods have to eat apples to stop from merely aging.

    Greek Gods (mostly Zeus) already beat their giants, and they did it when they were teenagers.
    A few problems with these lines of thought. First Immortality is not a measure of power unless we are talking about a system of such high attrition that time is important. Kratos is not besieging the Norse pantheon so this doesn't matter.

    Second while the Greek pantheon was oft' immune to all but non-deific forces, the Norse pantheon was in some cases immune to Everything less one specific, usually little known element.

    For the Greek Gods as a whole to defeat Giants and Titans is impressive but consider this; a single Norse God could and did kill, not imprison, numerous giants (Which were of a scale unmatched by the greeks) while also taking the role the greeks left to a titan, if only for a very short time.

    The easiest way to tell is actually to look at the believers of each faith though. The Greeks like their gods, fought and bickered with each other routinely with only one, the chosen people of Ares (and according to myth the direct descendants of Hercules) were a truly self sufficient fighting force. Even the people of Atena had to rely on massed walls and fortifacations. The Norse on the other hand were skilled warriors and trades people, that had a greater sense of unity and purpose with each other as well as their gods.
    Last edited by Cuaqchi; 2010-04-07 at 11:56 AM.

  13. - Top - End - #163
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    Default Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon

    These should be the next few GoW games. Kratos takes on the Norse, Kratos goes to Egypt, etc.

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    Default Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by Zen Monkey View Post
    These should be the next few GoW games. Kratos takes on the Norse, Kratos goes to Egypt, etc.
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    Default Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by Graymayre View Post
    Greek Gods are immortal and impervious to non-deitic damage. Norse Gods have to eat apples to stop from merely aging.
    Diomedes would like a word spear with you about that whole no injuring the gods thing.
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    Default Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by Zen Monkey View Post
    These should be the next few GoW games. Kratos takes on the Norse, Kratos goes to Egypt, etc.
    That sounds very interesting. Hopefully he has time for the African, Chinese and Japanese pantheons as well.

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    Default Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by Cuaqchi View Post
    A few problems with these lines of thought. First Immortality is not a measure of power unless we are talking about a system of such high attrition that time is important. Kratos is not besieging the Norse pantheon so this doesn't matter.

    Second while the Greek pantheon was oft' immune to all but non-deific forces, the Norse pantheon was in some cases immune to Everything less one specific, usually little known element.

    For the Greek Gods as a whole to defeat Giants and Titans is impressive but consider this; a single Norse God could and did kill, not imprison, numerous giants (Which were of a scale unmatched by the greeks) while also taking the role the greeks left to a titan, if only for a very short time.
    So being immune against everything but an element that could possibly be in the hands of a mortal is a strength?

    If it takes a deity to kill a deity, then you need a god's help to kill other Gods in greek mythology. If what you say is true, then all it takes is a pinch of some random compound in Thor's eye to make him go down (no help from other gods needed). If anything the Norse strength is a detriment in comparison to the greek pantheon's weakness because you don't need to go within the system to kill them. (Plus: Do you really think this is any kind of defense against Kratos?)

    The Norse pantheon has its share of bickering as well (see Loki).

    and where did you find the equation of power between giants and titans? I'd very much like to see it.

    In the end, I find the need to gauge the power between Greek and Norse deities unecessary. It's not like Kratos really struggled to kill gods anyway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lycan 01 View Post
    I am laughing my head off and applauding your tactic genius all at the same time. Bravo, good sir...
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  18. - Top - End - #168
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    Default Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon

    Well, one god of the norse pantheon was immune against everything, except for one small plant. None of the other gods had that ability.
    And the one who had it was killed by it.
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    Default Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    rape Slanesh
    Sorry, but I'm pretty sure this is ontologically impossible. That is, even an omnipotent entity couldn't rape him her it.

    Also, the final episode of GoW NEED to be against Kung-Fu Jesus.
    Last edited by Murdim; 2010-04-07 at 01:13 PM.

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    Default Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    Well, one god of the norse pantheon was immune against everything, except for one small plant. None of the other gods had that ability.
    And the one who had it was killed by it.
    Actually, strictly speaking Freyr would be immune to any attempt to fight him when he has his sword. As he is, literally, invincible with it.

  21. - Top - End - #171
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    Default Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon

    The norse gods are not amused by uplifting people to godly power just to see what they can do.

    In fact, they have a "Something is trying to murder us" contingency and have been preparing to use it for a long time.

    I'd like this to be noted, since that's kind of a huge thing in their favour.
    Last edited by trmptfnfr; 2010-04-07 at 01:27 PM.

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    Default Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon

    We are overlooking something. Let me spin you the most awesome scenario that I can... Given that we are making the horrible mistake of taking Loki for granted.

    Loki. Loki, who is at odds with his "fellow" gods. Loki, who knows what's coming. Loki, who's getting a crappy deal out of ragnorak. Loki the Lie Smith.

    Introduce a foreign warrior (And demigod, let's face it), who took out an entire PANTHEON. Furthermore, he's a bit of a muleheaded, hot-tempered idiot who you can manipulate by shouting "HEY! FREE REDEMPTION OVER THERE!"

    K-Dude: "Redemption? OH BOY! I LIKE redemption! I'll rage and kill and do EVEN WORSE things to get it!"

    The perfect pawn!

    Loki KNOWS how fate's gonna go down. But... What if he accelerated things, JUST a bit? And set things up so that it just KIND OF happens? And maybe set things into motion so that he gets a slightly better deal? I mean, hell, what has Loki got to lose?

    So he uses Kratos to touch off a warped version of Ragnorak. Steals the weapon that's destined to kill Fenris, and gives it to Kratos. "Here big guy! That giant wolf said your wife's ghost gave him crabs last tuesday!"

    Then he takes the jaws and claws of Fenris, and makes weapons out of them! Odin is destined to die at the jaws or claws of Fenris, right? NOBODY SAID THEY HAD TO BE ATTACHED TO A LIVING FENRIS WOLF! Or if they did, shush. He's Loki. It's close enough. Anyway, the bald guy just did that, so roll with it.

    Baldr? Even easier! "Here's a spear made of mistletoe! HEY! That peaceful looking guy over there just said that he knew something about how to get your family back!"

    Yeah. Stuff like that. And yeah, maybe Thor smites Kratos down the first time the K-tool runs into Mr. Hammertime. Big deal! Loki's got that covered! Hel is Loki's kid. Loki cuts a deal with her that Kratos gets out if he dies! He'll have to fight his way out to make it look good, but hey, Kratos is good at that. And Kratos' wife and kid probably aren't in Valhalla, so he'll eventually work his way out if Kratos ends up there.

    As long as Loki works a few angles... Maybe the bindings that hold him get swapped with something that TECHNICALLY fits the bill, and the serpent spitting venom into his eyes actually is a rare species that vomits milk and honey for venom, well, his lot is still better.

    Of course... It doesn't work.

    Loki is Loki. At some point, he screws up. Tips his hand, or one of the goddesses talks some sense into Kratos. By then, most of the pantheon's probably dead, and Kratos has gathered enough artifacts and power that he's achieved Critical Kratos (It's like critical mass, only surlier), and Loki's attempt to stop him fails. Kratos turns his wrath toward the betrayer, and eventually Loki runs out of pawns.

    Loki's fate is sealed, and he's getting the venom in the eyes treatment for eternity. Kratos makes sure of that.

    Then the pantheon-killer wanders south. He needs a vacation, after running through all this damn cold wearing only a kilt and some armor. He's heard of a sandy place where all the gods are animal-headed weirdoes, and probably won't bother him. I mean, what are the odds that a THIRD pantheon would piss him off beyond belief?

    ***

    Countries away, for no obvious reason, Risen Osiris gets a chill down his spine.

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    Default Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon

    Loki is unable to act because he is bound up by his own sons intestines in a cave precisely so that he wouldn't try to break free.

    Scenario's still awesome.
    Last edited by trmptfnfr; 2010-04-07 at 01:49 PM.

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    Default Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by trmptfnfr View Post
    Loki is unable to act because he is bound up by his own sons intestines in a cave precisely so that he wouldn't try to break free.

    Scenario's still awesome.
    Just means he can't act PERSONALLY. Has to work through catspaws.

    Not a problem for the Lok-ster.

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    Default Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon

    Actually.
    And yeah, maybe Thor smites Kratos down the first time the K-tool runs into Mr. Hammertime. Big deal! Loki's got that covered! Hel is Loki's kid. Loki cuts a deal with her that Kratos gets out if he dies! He'll have to fight his way out to make it look good, but hey, Kratos is good at that. And Kratos' wife and kid probably aren't in Valhalla, so he'll eventually work his way out if Kratos ends up there.
    Though one could point out that Hel doesn't like Loki any more than... anyone else.
    The chances of her helping him are as big as Sleipnir refusing to go to battle against his daddy.

    edit: Dude I was responding to deleted his message, oh well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Demiurge View Post
    Just means he can't act PERSONALLY. Has to work through catspaws.

    Not a problem for the Lok-ster.
    The only one who gives a crap about him at this point is his wife, who, if you remember, is holding up the acid cup.
    Last edited by trmptfnfr; 2010-04-07 at 02:01 PM.

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    Default Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn Solomon View Post
    That sounds very interesting. Hopefully he has time for the African, Chinese and Japanese pantheons as well.

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    Default Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by trmptfnfr View Post
    Actually.
    Though one could point out that Hel doesn't like Loki any more than... anyone else.
    The chances of her helping him are as big as Sleipnir refusing to go to battle against his daddy.

    The only one who gives a crap about him at this point is his wife, who, if you remember, is holding up the acid cup.
    See, now... This depends on what point in the myths that Kratos enters the scene.

    Is Loki bound in the cave when Kratos gets there, or not? If he isn't in the cave, then Loki's scheme goes off without trouble... Up until the point it doesn't.

    And if we're at the point where Loki's bound and his poor wife's his only friend, well... That's one catspaw. One that's free to walk out of there at any time. And that's enough to work with. He sends her off to start the machinations rolling and takes some eyepain while she goes and follows his orders.

    And regardless of whether or not Hel cooperates, it's not hard to get Kratos out of the underworld. Either Loki knows the secret ways, or he's got agents on the inside who can help. Or he can manipulate or blackmail Hel. It's all good.

  28. - Top - End - #178
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    kpenguin's Avatar

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    Default Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon

    Indeed. The scenario does not give us when Kratos appears. What if Kratos is late to the party and shows up after Ragnarok?
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  29. - Top - End - #179
    Halfling in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon

    Loki gets way too much credit these days.

    In order to stop a dude from completing a wall he had to go through coitus with a horse, his first instinct was to get knocked up by a horse described with words synonymous with "huge".

  30. - Top - End - #180
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    Default Re: Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon

    Why does everyone assume a Greco-Roman personality for every polytheistic deity? The Norse gods unlike their Greco-Roman counterparts were not fools/bigots/whores/etc. and although they never allowed anyone to raise to their level they had a distinct habit of rewarding proper behaviour.

    Valhalla was a warrior's paradise, and any human killed in honourable combat was taken to the halls by the Valkyries. (For those who don't know, imagine the angels of Judeo-Christian faith, along with sweet pegasus mounts.) Also anything and everything you could want as a warrior was in Valhalla when you arrived; Wrestling? Check! Women? Check! Alcohol? Check! Family? Check! Ping-Pong? Check!

    Regarding attacking further pantheons, as much as Eygpt might fall. Babylon/Mesopatamia/Pheonicia would kick his ass 6 ways to Sunday. Marduk who could defeat every other god combined, ruled over a pantheon where ever member had the ability and willingness to destroy the planet were it not for Marduk's tyrannical rule.

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