LGBTitp - Part Six

[Coidzor]

Oy... I am having some trouble with my WoW guild (oh the geeky horror). The problem being that my younger brother and closest friend are in it with me and managed to spill not only my sex (male) and name to the members, meaning they refer to me as a guy and dude and use my real name when talking to me (which I can't stand in any online setting). I guess I've just grown so accustom to being female in online settings that having one where I am known and referred to as male is a bit uncomfortable and abrasive. Trouble is, unlike most online settings, I can't just politely explain my "condition" and ask to be referred to as female as it would mean my brother and friend finding out... -_-

Are they stupid? How do they not already know with that much exposure?

[Ilena]

Well Jackie i hope everything works out :P Thing is is you WILL have to tell them sometime, but I can understand wanting to wait for the right moment. But keep us informed about this guild leader of yours :P Would be interesting to know! But just keep doing what your doing and all that, people may be dense at the best of times but some may pick up on things :P

Oh and spilling info like that? Big no no for me, if that was my brother i would have given him a tongue lashing.

[Serpentine]

"Hey, everybody. Guess who has two thumbs and just got SRS. THIS GU... GAL!!!"

Bags using this for every big announcement.
"Guess who has two thumbs and breast cancer!"
"Guess who has two thumbs and just got knocked up!"
"Guess who has two thumbs and is now an orphan!"
"Guess who has one thumb and was in a woodworking accident!"

This is really, really, really far back in the thread, but I'd like to say that the two (i.e. stable male vs. good genes) are not mutually exclusive. Because excessive sexual hormones, testosterone in particular, retard higher brain function, a loyal parter is more likely to also have genes for intelligence.
I'm being a bit of a male apologist here. Yes, we males have done some pretty awful things. In fairness, so have females.

I did say "often conflicting", not mutually exclusive. I don't disagree at all.
accident!"

Also, I go to an all-guys boarding school. Oddly enough, when girls aren't around, guys let down their guard more and do things (like holding hands) that would be considered gay in mixed company. Plus, transgendered behavior in general, in a joking manner, is funny: if girls where around, it'd be taboo. Just wondering why that is.

Huh. That's an interesting one. Can anyone else confirm this sort of behaviour?

One of the great, but still often overlooked, parts of Feminism: it opposes the idea that men and women "should" behave a particular way, and maintains that they can behave as "girly" or "manly" as they like. Its progress is faster in some areas in others - for example, depending on where you go being a "manly"* woman is more acceptable than being a "girly"^ woman, and vice-versa.

* independent, aggressive, "tom-boyish", active, strong, capable, masculine etc.
^ dependent, emotional, frilly, passive, non-physical, domestic, feminine, etc.

[Coidzor]

^: Now if only I could get away from the ones who think acting manly means they have to talk about having penises and casually hurl insults and threats at others. Those women are annoyingly rude, thank god it's only been one per campus I've been on, but they're loud enough they put out the same output as about 20-30 background individuals.

Because you have to give the appearance of being a suitable mate for appearances purposes and "everyone else" is looking to cut one another down to size to better their odds by lowering someone else. Whether they realize that's why or what they're doing, well, meh.

There's likely other things at play, but this is definitely a component.

[golentan]

You know what would be more disturbing, Serp? On the third one: "Guess who has six thumbs and is now an orphan?"

I can partially confirm the "gay behavior" not considered gay in single gender company. When I was younger, my friends would cuddle at single sex sleepovers with no hint of romantic or sexual engagement, but throw in a woman and physical contact became a strict no-no because "she might think we're gay."

[Serpentine]

You know what would be more disturbing, Serp? On the third one: "Guess who has six thumbs and is now an orphan?"

!

I can partially confirm the "gay behavior" not considered gay in single gender company. When I was younger, my friends would cuddle at single sex sleepovers with no hint of romantic or sexual engagement, but throw in a woman and physical contact became a strict no-no because "she might think we're gay."

Really? For some reason, I find this very interesting.
Man, what has society done to everyone? We could be having mass cuddles! D=

[golentan]

!
Really? For some reason, I find this very interesting.
Man, what has society done to everyone? We could be having mass cuddles! D=

That would make me very happy if it could happen.

I need more physical contact. My friends have actually been disturbed by how important it is for me to touch people, even just to have my hand on someone else's shoulder.

[arguskos]

I need more physical contact. My friends have actually been disturbed by how important it is for me to touch people, even just to have my hand on someone else's shoulder.

Amen.

I've had no (literally, no) physical contact in 6 months. It blows. I feel your pain.

[golentan]

Amen.

I've had no (literally, no) physical contact in 6 months. It blows. I feel your pain.

I've had physical contact. But the thing is that whenever I meet a friend, or am talking to them, or whatever the scenario, I just want to reach out and touch them. Sometimes without even noticing.

Hell, we were watching a movie the other day, and my buddy turns around and says "If I was that into you, I'd have asked you to sit in my lap." I realized I'd been rubbing his head, and he had thought it was his girlfriend at first before making the connection "Oh. Golentan's behind me and she's holding the popcorn."

[Lycan 01]

I can back up the "psuedo-homosexual activity when no girls or stupid guys are around" thing. I have a lot of guy friends who are very huggy and whatnot. Friend's having a bad day? Give him a hug. Buddy seems stressed? Back massage. Steve wants his scalp scratched? No problem. Lots of stuff that would be considered Tabboo in open public, ESPECIALLY here in Mississippi. (Yay for wide-spread ignorance! )

I personally don't do any of this, but that's just because I'm a "NO TOUCHY!!" sort of person who won't let anyone but his girlfriend give him a hug.


Specifically, there was my roommate and his best friend. I can vouch for their straightness, of course. But they would do things some people might consider awkward or creepy, even though it really wasn't. They gave each other hugs on occasion, and would do silly things like jump on each others backs and wrestle and stuff. No biggie, right? Well, the friend's roommate was mildly disturbed by it. It hit the breaking point, though, when he walked into his dorm room and found them in bed together.

Now, when I say in bed, I mean they were both lying on either edge, with pillows and blankets as a barrier between them, casually chatting about video games and stuff. Y'know, just a friendly chat while lying back comfortable. Well, the friend's roommate SPAZZED. He said if he saw them doing anything else like that, he'd report them to the RA for homosexual behavior and/or sexual harrassment against him.

IIRC, on the last day of school they started hugging when he walked into the dorm room, just to mess with him. He turned around, walked off... and went to find the RA. Thankfully, the RA was not home at the time...

Sheesh, some people can't take jokes.



The point is, a lot of guys are actually pretty open and relaxed when girls or "manly" men aren't around. And even then, plenty of my guys friends will give their buddy a hug or a massage when girls are around.

[Serpentine]

The most worrying thing about that is that they, and you, and that guy, all apparently thing the RA would actually do something about it

[golentan]

The point is, a lot of guys are actually pretty open and relaxed when girls or "manly" men aren't around. And even then, plenty of my guys friends will give their buddy a hug or a massage when girls are around.

Minor point of contention: Manly men are not threatened by guys cuddling. They are secure in their manliness. When you see someone who is threatened, they are clearly not manly, as a manly man's response would be at worst "Cool, more chicks for me. I'm going out for more brews, put a tie on the doorknob next time, kay?"

As I've said before, the people who protest against homosexuality should really give themselves some thorough introspection as to why they feel that spending so much of their time thinking about girl/girl or guy/guy action feels so fulfilling.

[Serpentine]

I would like to point out that he said "manly", with the inverted commas. Manly men might not be threatened by men cuddling, but "manly" men (often/usually?) are.

A fine distinction, but an important one

[Lycan 01]

Yes, the "manly" part of manly men was meant to be sarcasm.


If he'd actually filed a complaint with the RA, the guys would have gotten in trouble for a variety of things. Violation of dorm rules (no naughty stuff, even behind closed doors), disrespecting a roommate's personal wishes, and sexual harrassment in the form of doing PDA just to freak out the roommate. So, yeah, they could have gotten in serious trouble...

[golentan]

I would like to point out that he said "manly", with the inverted commas. Manly men might not be threatened by men cuddling, but "manly" men (often/usually?) are.

A fine distinction, but an important one

...

Okay, granted. Manly men are cool. "Manly" men need to quit pretending we don't all know they're overcompensating for something, and find constructive ways to cope with their shortcomings. Engineering skyscrapers, for instance.

[Deth Muncher]

To throw in on the cuddling bit: Yeah, I totally cuddled with my best guy friend at a young age. I wanna say it was even so late as like...3rd grade? Both of us are decidedly heterosexual, but in a time before we knew what "gay" was, neither of us thought it was really weird at all. It's interesting to think what would happen had neither of us found out what homosexuality was. O_o

[Serpentine]

This is a real eye-opener. Might ask some of my guy friends about it...

On an ""abnormal/unusual/out-of-the-norm/something" sex/uality" note, the Hack program on Triple J right now is about disabled people (particularly para- or quadraplegics) seeing prostitutes. Quite interesting. You should be able to download the podcast from the website, if anyone's interested.
(next topic tonight's an interview with a former Grand Wizard of the KKK...)

[Quincunx]

Are they stupid? How do they not already know with that much exposure?

People are. . .really. . .really really really. . .not as great as drawing inferences about the writer's perspective from text than you'd think. Not realizing that most people broadcast a peen-as-default perspective must be part of that. Not realizing how out of place that sounds on a female toon seems equally rare. (There's not necessarily overlap between those realizations either.)

(dons a mop cap and apron to guard the way to the Wise Golentan's witch hut)

[Coidzor]

People are. . .really. . .really really really. . .not as great as drawing inferences about the writer's perspective from text than you'd think. Not realizing that most people broadcast a peen-as-default perspective must be part of that. Not realizing how out of place that sounds on a female toon seems equally rare. (There's not necessarily overlap between those realizations either.)

Well, I was talking about. A. Jacklu's closest friend in meatspace and B. Jacklu's little brother.

See, Meat-space Jacklu's actually troubled by the fact that he's been outed to her guild. Since they deal with both him-meat and her-cyber, unless Jacklu's a lot better at bottling up wearing both the male meatspace and female WoW masks, one of the Jackie's is going to show some tells, at least, of discomfit.

Then there's that he's a guy playing as a girl and who had been not only doing that, but also presenting himself as a meat-puppet as a girl, for long enough that the sell-by date on any jokes or epic trolling would have long since passed.... ...And somehow only relatively recently best friend and little bro spilled the beans. Which raises the question of whether they're recent additions to the guild, and if so, why Jackie vouchsafed them when she knew that they were a risk to revealing the male meat-puppet.

And, at the very least, quizzical looks are given to guys who actually roleplay as female players. In fact, the stereotypical go-to response I've always encountered in such situations has been to question the gender-sexuality of the person in question by those who knew the individual in meatspace. Indeed, someone who doesn't know her in real life has picked up on it well enough to ask questions and start the cogs a turning. When the people it appears to seem most thought-provoking to, apparently don't notice.

At the very least, it definitely seems like they should, be giving Jacklu **** about it from what his meatspace reports of the character of his family and those close to him and his family in meat space either suggest or outright state.

Jacklu, you make me think too much. x.x

[Delta]

for long enough that the sell-by date on any jokes or epic trolling would have long since passed

There is a sell-by date for epic trolling now? Why didn't anyone tell me?

[Serpentine]

Well... If I had spent a great deal of (internet) time interacting with someone who claimed to be one thing (any thing), and then I was informed that they were, in fact, something else (keeping in mind that no gender issues have been brought up in their context), I would be extremely annoyed, possibly downright angry, and a lot of trust would have been lost.
But 'sjust me.

edit: If it were subsequently explained to me that there were such issues involved, I would probably be quite forgiving. But such explanation doesn't seem to be about to happen here. Anyway, point being, yes there is a use-by date on such things.

[Quincunx]

Mrmm. . .the meatspace players are too young to properly troll is all. They're not even taking time to question the situation, let alone skip the questioning step and go straight to the ribbing. (Yes, the cheerful application and acceptance of immaturity is a sign of maturity. Don't look at me like that, I didn't make the rules. . .) It's not going to blow up further in RL on its own unless Jacklu prods the matter.

Online ribbing doesn't necessarily go down a non-heterosexual route either. For every instance where the rest of the guild 'spontaneously' starts singing "Lola" with the character's name substituted, there's a joke about "autoerotic pixelation" and the _impossibility_ of meeting real women on the Internet where the men are men, et cetera.

[Coidzor]

Mrmm. . .the meatspace players are too young to properly troll is all. They're not even taking time to question the situation, let alone skip the questioning step and go straight to the ribbing. (Yes, the cheerful application and acceptance of immaturity is a sign of maturity. Don't look at me like that, I didn't make the rules. . .) It's not going to blow up further in RL on its own unless Jacklu prods the matter.

Apparently so. Figured Jacklu being in my rough age group, his closest friend would be as well.

I guess you could boil all of this down to an occurence of my stating how bizarre I found such a scenario on those two agents' parts.

[Delta]

Well... If I had spent a great deal of (internet) time interacting with someone who claimed to be one thing (any thing), and then I was informed that they were, in fact, something else (keeping in mind that no gender issues have been brought up in their context), I would be extremely annoyed, possibly downright angry, and a lot of trust would have been lost.

Isn't it the intention of trolling to get you annoyed or angry?

[Serpentine]

If the intention of the deception is mockery, then yes. In this case and various cases I'm thinking of, no. In any case, that doesn't justify the deception.

[The Anarresti]

My one thing that gets me thinking, is that I've always wanted to pull off drag. When I think about me as a female, I don't think that that would be more (or less) true to myself as a person, but being male/female just kinda is a nonissue . I've just always wanted to see what it would be like. Think Elan and the belt. But I've never tried it before, and I wouldn't know who to ask. I've got straight-not-narrow parents, but that still is weird to ask them about it. And I can't really ask anyone who lives in my hometown because, you know, rural bible belt. So yeah.

[Rappy]

I feel for Jackhlu's plight, as in meatspace I can't achieve what I can online due to various circumstances (such as the one noted below), and would hate to have the two clash in such a manner.

Then again, I have no friends in meatspace due to where I live and the intolerance of my family and the region outside of the small "safety bubble" I live in, so it's mostly a non-issue.

Y'all are more than enough for my empathy to feed on...and I mean that in a totally non-creepy way.

[Lix Lorn]

I totally intend to do that (drag) at some point, but only as the first step on the road.
(Impatient for 18th birthday so can see therapist or something)

[The Anarresti]

So, on the road, meaning to full-on gender change? I just want to see what it'd be like, actually, kinda like a personal challenge to see if I can pass as a girl.

[Deth Muncher]

I wouldn't mind doing drag once I lose a few pounds. In fact, several folks on this forum have seconded this. The odd thing is I don't see anything "queer" about it, and I mean that in all senses of the word. For some reason, my mind doesn't associate crossdressing with any particular sexuality. I think it might be my actor roots. But likewise do I fail to see anything strange with it. I think it's probably because I view women in suits as a form of crossdressing anyway. -shrug-