LGBTitp - Part Six

[Serpentine]

Hell, I hear about more transexuals on here hooking up than just about anyone else

[Delusion]

Why is it that with every math exam that has a question dealing with probabilities (my strong point) the question is worded so that it has high chance of being a trick question -.-

And Annonymous person:
While my advice might not be very helpful (am still in side my surprisingly comfy closet) I still say that you should never loose hope, surprisingly many people in the world are rather open minded. You never know when you will stumble across a right person.
Though from what I have heard from other TS websites, many transexuals are still living a fullfilling live while being asexual so no its not so uncommon either.

[Danne]

Hi guys an' gals. I haven't been around so much due to the fact that I don't currently have a computer (my laptop blew up and I'm away from school for the summer, so there's no helpful library right across the street anymore...) -- hope everyone's doing okay!

I'm actually going through a bit of a rough spot myself right now. I'm not sure if I'm looking for advice or if I just need to spew at someone, but I figured in either case no one here would mind.

I think I've mentioned a few times before that I'm "bisexual and gender confused, and completely okay with that." I'm not "out" about either aspect, primarily because I'm a very private person and don't think that it's anyone's business right now. I do know that my family, especially my mother, won't have any problem with me being bi. If they're ever in a "need to know" situation (i.e. I end up in a serious relationship with someone with the same gender) I'll tell them then and I expect that to go well.

The gender issues are . . . more complicated. On good days, I'm FtM, with no doubts or regrets about it. Most of the time, it's not so simple, and I regard my gender with my usual mixture of happy-go-lucky cheerfulness ("I'm me and that's awesome!") and cynicism ("I have no freaking clue what I am, but bah humbug, what does gender matter, anyway?") -- and that works for me just fine.

But then there are bad days. Not very often, and they don't last very long, but occasionally something comes around to trigger a "mopey, confused" phase, and my head gets muddled and it feels rather like I'm drowning. Not fun.

This last time, it was a comment made by my mom. We were driving home from running some errands, and she was telling me a story about how, years ago, her best friend was in Japan but couldn't visit any bath houses because she was pregnant. My mom then laughed and joked about how she shouldn't be telling me this because it would make me not want to get pregnant (because I enjoy sitting in hot baths/hot tubs/etc.). And I sort of looked at her and went, "Um. I'm planning on adopting."

Which, honestly, I thought she already knew. I've known that I want to adopt since I was at least eight years old. She's even seen me reading nonfiction books about adoption, so how could she not know? I get that I'm only nineteen and that I'm likely to change my mind on a lot of things between now and when I'd actually be in a position to take care of any kids, but I really doubt that this is going to change.

There are a LOT of contributing factors that influenced that decision, but one of the major ones is that, well . . . not a girl. Whether I'm in a good-FtM phase or a neutral-confused phase, that's something I know for a fact. I am not a girl. The idea of being pregnant seems Wrong to me -- not because I have anything against pregnancy for other people, or because it scares me or wigs me out, or anything like that. I mean, most guys shouldn't have to deal with it; why should I? It's just Wrong, and I can't really explain it any better than that.

Only my mom didn't really react very well to me telling her about my plans to adopt someday. She's started several conversations recently with, "I know you said you're planning to adopt, but..." It also seems like she's taking every opportunity to throw pregnancy issues in my face, as if by pointing out how normal it is she'll change my mind. "Oh, look, that actress is only being shown from the chest up or sitting with a pillow in her lap -- she must be pregnant!" "One of my coworkers just announced she was pregnant. Isn't that nice?" Etc, etc.

The other thing is that my mom doesn't really understand gender issues (of any kind). I remember watching Rent (the movie) for the first time and trying to talk to her about it; I got confused as to which pronoun I should use to refer to Angel (I was thirteen at the time and hadn't really been exposed to transgender people) and she told me that the correct pronoun to use was the person's "real" gender (i.e. the one that person was born with). A few years ago, her best friend's brother-in-law finally told them that she's trans, is taking hormones, and is planning on getting SRS -- my mom's friend is taking it pretty hard, and so my mom always gets angry and defensive when the subject comes up. ("You know about Carl, right? He wants to be called 'Carla' now," with a sneer to go with it. Etc.) I even remember her refusing to let me cut my hair too short when I was little, because she didn't want me to look like a boy.

It's not that she's malevolent towards trans people, or hates us (her anger at Carla is mostly because her friend is upset and has nothing to do with Carla herself) but through ignorance. She thinks we're just confused or going through some sort of phase. And my mother has an astonishing capacity to refuse to learn anything she doesn't want to; any attempts by me to explain the matter in the past have been useless. While she would accept and support me if I were to tell her about being bi, I know that if I told her about my gender problems, she'd tell me I was being ridiculous.

So this is me between a rock and a hard place, I suppose. I've tried to tell her some of my non-gender related reasons for wanting to adopt and she still keeps pressing the issue. She seems to think that I'd be missing out on some sort of wonderful experience, and she doesn't listen to me when I tell her I'm not interested. And I can't tell her the real reason for why I've no interest in that "wonderful experience," because she wouldn't understand me being FtM (or whatever I am). And it's frustrating, and annoying, and I'm not sure how much more I can take.

(Sorry about the very long post!)

[Lix Lorn]

Hmm. Well, maybe it would be easiest to tell her now? Then you don't have to have two discussions/arguments...

I told my parents about me being MtF a while back... but I get the impression they're not completely sure that I'm sure.
I swear that was relevant in my head.

[The Anarresti]

All I can really say is just don't let that get to you. You are who you are, not who you parents think you should be. I know that that's eaisier said than done, just keep it in mind. Be true to yourself, don't get defensive, don't get mad, just be you.
*HUGS*

[Jacklu]

Harmph... Jackie proposes this conundrum:

Jackie has a cute girlfriend now. <333 (that wouldn't be the problem =P) Cute girlfriend also happens to be MtF. Clearly, Jackie doesn't give a hoot about such things. She is cute and adorable and I am ridiculously happy to have her. The problem that presents itself is that at some point my parents are going to find out I am dating her and likely desire to see pictures/talk with/meet her. =/ Yeah... To me, she is a very pretty girl through and through, and any biological disparity with that fact matters not the tiniest bit to me. My parents... probably won't see things that way. -_- Not sure how to handle this beyond simply not telling them I am no longer single.

[Lycan 01]

Hmmm...

Who says they even need to know you're no longer single?

And even if they know you're dating, its not your fault if the person isn't photogenic or is too shy to meet them.

[Serpentine]

Tolja the trannies are the main ones hooking up around here
Jackie, what's your parents' stance on things, again?

Danne: One of the advantages of having Dr. Mum, I guess. She's already done the research on transexuality as a medical issue, so if I were ever to approach her with such a problem she'd be looking at it from that angle (which includes "it's not your fault", "lets talk to some professionals", and "at the moment, SRS is the most effective treatment available,").
But don't be too hard on your mother with the pregnancy thing, specifically. She doesn't know about your gender problems in general nor even your reasons for wanting to adopt specifically. So far as she knows, you are just afraid of pregnancy and giving birth or whatever, and is trying to cure you of that.

[Jacklu]

My mom might be somewhat supportive, at least tolerant, but my dad is very conservative about such things. =/

[Lycan 01]

Again, perhaps she's shy and unphotogenic?

And they may not care. About the girlfriend, I mean. They may not care to meet her for awhile, or may respect your privacy, giving you more time to think of something...


Or you could just not tell them you're dating. Its your business, not their's, right?

[golentan]

Jacklu, why are you so afraid to let yourself be yourself in the presence of your family?

It seems to my practiced but skewed eye that you spend so much time worrying about whether they'd love you as you that you start to wonder if you yourself are loveable, leading to your depression and stated self loathing. Rather than the proper question. Or perhaps it's the other way around. And it's not necessary. You seem to be a very fine person, as far as persons go, at least.

Congratulations, as well. Is she cute? I bet she's cute. And nice. Someone would have to be kind to be with you. You're too kind to wind up with someone who isn't.

[Pika...]

Wait, crap. Sorry, it's early-morning, I skimread and then jumped straight to "cranky".

NP.

And thank you Serpentine.


Two have donated, (one by other means). I thank you kindly. I teared up when I saw that a little while ago after accidentally clicking my own sig.

Bless you!

[Quincunx]

Danne: You've got two separate problems there, that your mother sees you as a brood mare and that you'd rather not be a mare at all. If you want the polite version of how to deal with the first issue, look for what Syka's written in Relationship Woes & Advice. If you want my version. . .well. . .. . .tell your mother that you want to be treated like a human being and not a brood mare, and not being judged by your. . .womb will be impossible if you birth your own children. Ask your mother if she started fantasizing a man sticking it in you before you yourself did. Make the conversation as graphic and as full of ugly emotions as possible.

[Lix Lorn]

Ohai I had an idea!

A while ago, there was discussion about an RP with the T members of this thread fighting a demigoddess for the right to magically transition. Well, for many reasons, that didn't happen.

However,
This thread.

I'm aware that most people wouldn't want to let it be known, but is there anyone who would be willing to be a character in such a story?

[Lykan]

I'm aware that most people wouldn't want to let it be known, but is there anyone who would be willing to be a character in such a story?

*raises hand* I'm up for it. Although I don't speak as much in this thread as others, so others may be preferred.

[Lix Lorn]

Nope, you'll do fine, as long as you're realising that any chance of hiding things would be kindofgone...

When I start writing, I'll probably ask for character descriptions and classes and things.

[Lykan]

Nope, you'll do fine, as long as you're realising that any chance of hiding things would be kindofgone...

When I start writing, I'll probably ask for character descriptions and classes and things.

Hiding things?

Also, I can produce both of those when needed.

[golentan]

You have permission to use me, if you like. I'm not trans, but I am (technically) a male (larval) -> neuter female (adult) -> sexless (after mindrip) -> back and forth a few (hundred) times (various hosts). I try to swap sex every couple of generations, unless I feel that my current plan has a need for a particular social role. Which I don't see as being as big a deal in the coming few centuries so long as I avoid certain cultures.

Anyway, I suspect I'd be down for helping people take out a goddess to increase their happiness with their lives. Prior experience and all that. As long as I get to make snarky comments the whole time.

[Jacklu]

Feel free to use me as well. ^_^

[Ilena]

*shifty eyes* *unwraps her cloak* you may use me too! *spots those trackers, runs and hides* :P

[Coidzor]

*shifty eyes* *unwraps her cloak* you may use me too! *spots those trackers, runs and hides* :P

*spits out orange sauce all over the computer screen*

Hoom. Took me a while to find the context that was uttered in.

[Mystic Muse]

So, kind of an odd question.

I'm thinking of using a Lesbian couple in a book I'm writing. I plan on writing them in a positive light as a completely normal couple. However, I have to ask, are there any real differences between a heterosexual relationship and a Lesbian one? I've never been in either and the second would be significantly harder than the first. I apologize if the question seems weird. It's just that if I do this (The book goes through a lot of changes. This might be changed too.) I want to do it as realistically and tastefully as possible.

I'd explain the book but it kind of breaks board rules. (Real world religion.)

I really hope nobody's offended by this. I don't mean to imply that Lesbians are different from the norm in some way. I just have almost no real life experience with them and I just want to be sure there aren't any differences.

EDOT: one other question. I am too worried about offending people?

[golentan]

So, kind of an odd question.

I'm thinking of using a Lesbian couple in a book I'm writing. I plan on writing them in a positive light as a completely normal couple. However, I have to ask, are there any real differences between a heterosexual relationship and a Lesbian one? I've never been in either and the second would be significantly harder than the first. I apologize if the question seems weird. It's just that if I do this (The book goes through a lot of changes. This might be changed too.) I want to do it as realistically and tastefully as possible.

I'd explain the book but it kind of breaks board rules. (Real world religion.)

I really hope nobody's offended by this. I don't mean to imply that Lesbians are different from the norm in some way. I just have almost no real life experience with them and I just want to be sure there aren't any differences.

EDOT: one other question. I am too worried about offending people?

Babies require a third party? Though that's not actually all that uncommon.

Also: the first rule of having a normal relationship is there are no normal relationships. Every person has their own quirks. Combine two people, and the amount of variance from a hypothetical "normal" rockets upwards at a rate that would make Y = X^X blush. Just saying.

[Yora]

EDOT: one other question. I am too worried about offending people?

Around here, you can pretty much speak your mind. We're used to struggling with a language that takes heteronormativity as a standard. Happens a lot without anyone having hostile intentions.

In other situations just don't say that queer people are completely different from "normal people" or should be treated differently, and I think you're fine. That would of course still be offensive to some people, but these people are just wrong.

[Lix Lorn]

Lykan, Golentan, Jacklu, Crixon, plus me!
That's enough. ^_^

Thankees~

[Mystic Muse]

In other situations just don't say that queer people are completely different from "normal people" or should be treated differently, and I think you're fine. That would of course still be offensive to some people, but these people are just wrong.

Yes. Exactly.

[PhoeKun]

So, kind of an odd question.

I'm thinking of using a Lesbian couple in a book I'm writing. I plan on writing them in a positive light as a completely normal couple. However, I have to ask, are there any real differences between a heterosexual relationship and a Lesbian one? I've never been in either and the second would be significantly harder than the first. I apologize if the question seems weird. It's just that if I do this (The book goes through a lot of changes. This might be changed too.) I want to do it as realistically and tastefully as possible.

I'd explain the book but it kind of breaks board rules. (Real world religion.)

I really hope nobody's offended by this. I don't mean to imply that Lesbians are different from the norm in some way. I just have almost no real life experience with them and I just want to be sure there aren't any differences.

EDOT: one other question. I am too worried about offending people?

Addressing the question from the perspective of a lesbian: In the relationship itself, the biggest difference from a heterosexual relationship is the lack of a man. Obviously, this means they can't have children outside of adoption/artificial insemination, but beyond that it functions in every variation that a heterosexual relationship would. Which is to say, it depends on the people involved. Sometimes you'll find them adopting the 'classical' relationship structure, where one person supports the other, or they might split the workload evenly. Maybe it's all about sex. Or maybe they're soulmates. Maybe they have a lot of little arguments, but always make up by the end. It depends on the individuals involved, as in all relationships.

Society, of course, will perceive the relationship differently. There are additional hoops to jump through, prejudices to overcome (depending on where you live), and so on. I'd recommend going out and researching the rights issues yourself; you'll find a much more comprehensive list of the issues involved in a homosexual relationship in modern society than I could ramble off the top of my head. Unless the story isn't set in modern society, in which case... eh.

Addressing the question from the perspective of a writer: Does the inclusion of a lesbian couple in your story add anything to it? Is it important in some way to the narrative that there be a homosexual couple? This is something you should carefully consider before adding an element to the story that can potentially distract the reader from the parts you want them to be focusing on. It's a very delicate balancing act - you don't want the characters to be so absorbed in their sexuality that it becomes them, but at the same time if there's no importance to it then what was the point in including it in the first place? This doesn't apply only to sexuality, of course, but to every aspect of each character and the plot. Is someone in a relationship? Is that important in any way? How does it affect the story, and how much time can you afford to spend highlighting it? Consider these things carefully.

Additional advice while I'm here: ignore that last paragraph while you're actually writing your first draft, or they'll get in the way and stop anything from getting written in the first place. But when it comes time to edit, please do go carefully over each story element and think about how it helps to paint the greater picture.

[golentan]

Which is to say, it depends on the people involved. Sometimes you'll find them adopting the 'classical' relationship structure, where one person supports the other, or they might split the workload evenly. Maybe it's all about sex. Or maybe they're soulmates. Maybe they have a lot of little arguments, but always make up by the end. It depends on the individuals involved, as in all relationships.

Umm... How is that different from any other relationship ever?

Plus, I don't see why being a lesbian has to be narratively important. Mrs. Gedris wrote an article I quite enjoyed several months back on the difference between writing "Gay Characters" and "Characters who are Gay." And I think that literature needs more of the latter.

[PhoeKun]

Umm... How is that different from any other relationship ever?

Plus, I don't see why being a lesbian has to be narratively important. Mrs. Gedris wrote an article I quite enjoyed several months back on the difference between writing "Gay Characters" and "Characters who are Gay." And I think that literature needs more of the latter.

My point was, quite explicitly, that it isn't different from other relationships.

A character's homosexuality doesn't have to be important to the narrative, but ideally it should serve some sort of function, or at the very least not be detrimental to it.

I tried (clearly not nearly enough for your tastes) to imply that it was a bad thing to define a character by their sexuality, but if somebody in a story is gay for the sake of having a gay character, it's not doing the story any favors. How do you bring this up? Why would you waste precious words, sentences, pages, and ink to show me this aspect of a character when it is never going to come up again? I don't want to be clubbed over the head with it, either, but if a writer is going to call attention to something in the first place it's better for him not to be wasting the reader's time with it.

There's a place in any story for a bit of embellishment here and there, to help fill out a setting or a character, but it's far too easy to overdo this and stuff the book to bursting with details that have no relevance to the narrative. And I would rather somebody stuff a story with extraneous nonsense than not write a story at all, but any author who is serious about doing something with the story they've just written beyond letting it sit in a notebook or a document file, they need to be prepared to go at it with some pruning sheers afterward. As a general rule, the extra tidbits are the easiest things to snip.

[golentan]

I see. I was confused because you included the portion on relationship dynamics right after the "Biggest Difference" bit.

I disagree about it serving as a distraction/unnecessary embellishment though. Even characters who only get one line should have a reason for saying that line, and something to think about for what they plan to do next. Recurring characters should feel real, which means giving them goals and personalities and interpersonal relationships. We don't need to know that Middle Manager Alfred (recurring minor support character) used to play the Ukulele and that's how he met his wife. But it's a nice quirk if after talking to her he starts strumming his fingers and humming a little tune. It makes him feel more real. We probably don't even need to know he's married, but having the narrative walk in on him ending a conversation with her also adds to immersion. It humanizes him and makes him empathetic even as he sacks the protagonist over a faulty line of code. And it can be done in two or three sentences. That is a worthy use of lines.

I'm not fan of "Over the Head with a Frying pan" characterization. But I also don't see how stripping out details helps. And I think that the idea that a couple characters are in a relationship together, regardless of the type of relationship, doesn't contribute to good storytelling as long as you avoid clubbing it to death is silly.

Of course, I despise Hemingway as one of the most overrated authors in the twentieth century because he is overly minimalist (not bad stories, but bad wordsmithy: zero detail -> zero immersion -> no emotional engagement). So YMMV.