LGBTitp - Part Six

[Coidzor]

Umm... How is that different from any other relationship ever?

Plus, I don't see why being a lesbian has to be narratively important. Mrs. Gedris wrote an article I quite enjoyed several months back on the difference between writing "Gay Characters" and "Characters who are Gay." And I think that literature needs more of the latter.

I think part of it is that we expect homosexuality to attract flak for it, even in literature still, to some extent. And in having to deal with that flak and account for its development of the character prior to getting their time in our view, more writers err on the side of Gay apologists in one way or another than for characters who just happen to be part of a discriminated against minority but don't bear any scars or crippling narrative yokes as a result.

Not sure, but I think American flim and writing had similar issues with African-Americans/Blacks for awhile there(Including that whole Blaxploitation thing ). Occasionally they still backslide but IIRC they've been getting better about it. The not sure about it part is whether the issues are truly similar and whether they've actually made enough better to count as getting better about it.

Now, if the setting is such a one that they've eliminated much or all of the character growth that coming to terms with one's non-heterosexuality and one's relationship with society as a result, then, yes, they're being lazy idjits if they're writing them as being defined by their homosexuality in any way.

[Jacklu]

Relevant link to article in question!

Also, because it is related, Jackie is feeling especially good about having a girlfriend. ^_^

[Danne]

@Serp: You hit the nail on the head, I think. She's convinced I'm just afraid of it and wants to convince me it's safe, etc. -- she doesn't have any idea that there might be another reason or that she's making me uncomfortable. I'm not sure how to tell her that that's not the case without dragging the gender issues into it. And I think the reason I've been so upset is that this whole thing highlights the fact that there really is a part of me that she couldn't accept. I'm so used to the knowledge that she'd accept me being bi that I tend to forget that she wouldn't understand me being FtM.

@Quincunx: Huh. I didn't think of it that way. Thank you for being so frank, and for putting the two sides of the problem in perspective; my head's been so muddled that I haven't been looking at it that way. I think I'll try the "I am not a brood mare" bit the next time it comes up!

@Kyuubi: What everyone else said. Especially PhoeKun; that's basically everything I would have said if she hadn't beaten me to it. And please do read the article Jackie linked! It's very interesting!

[Coidzor]

I'm so used to the knowledge that she'd accept me being bi that I tend to forget that she wouldn't understand me being FtM.

I'd say you expect too much. I mean, how many FtMs fully understand their situation and condition? How many people who aren't trans understand what it's like enough to know whether feeling like every day that one wants to claw out of one's one flesh is an appropriate analogy? How many parents understand their kids? Especially before any actual conversations been had in any kind of actual direct, open conversation.

So, what, she'd disown you, kick you out of the house, and reacquire as much as she's invested in you as possible if she found out you were trans? Then don't use the word understand as a euphemism for that.

[Eloi]

@Danne Now I don't want to be presumptuous, but I would think if she really loves you, she would understand. Maybe you're underestimating her in that regard? And if not, I have nothing else to give but my empathy.

[Danne]

@Coidzor: No no, you don't get it. My mom literally doesn't understand trans people. She thinks we're just confused or making it up. She thinks that the proper pronoun to use is the one that reflects the sex that person was born with; she insists on calling an MtF a "he" and an FtM a "she." She doesn't understand that an FtM really is a guy who happens to have been born with a birth defect; she thinks we're just really confused girls. She does not think that we should be denied rights or forced into therapy against our will (though she'd probably pressure me to get some if I told her). I've successfully grown out of the angsty teenager, "Waah, my parents don't understand me!" phase, thanks; I didn't use that word as a euphemism. It's the correct word to use.

@Eloi: You're right to a certain degree, and thank you for the reminder. I'm stressed out and not really thinking about that aspect. My mum wouldn't throw me out of the house or refuse to help fund my college education, and I'm very lucky in that regard. We have a good relationship and I know she loves me (and I love her). But you're underestimating her ability to get an idea stuck in her head and not be able to get around it. I'd anticipate countless screaming fits and a strong pressure to get therapy if she were to find out.

[Coidzor]

Oh, then, uh... just get on with it? Either you'll just have to outlive her anyway like your plan was on the off-chance she never found out, or you'll get the hullabaloo over with and thus have less angst about it in the long run. She doesn't have to understand. Just have it drilled into her head not to be rude about it and how not to be rude.

[Eloi]

Oh, then, uh... just get on with it? Either you'll just have to outlive her anyway like your plan was on the off-chance she never found out, or you'll get the hullabaloo over with and thus have less angst about it in the long run. She doesn't have to understand. Just have it drilled into her head not to be rude about it and how not to be rude.

Um, you do realize its his mom, right? You can't discipline your parents, or force understanding into them. That'd worsen things and make him come off as a prick. I have no other suggestions, just to not do what Coidzor said.

[Coidzor]

Depends on how much of an ass they want to be about it, really. Considering the problem is usually one of A. death or B. eviction and confiscation of property, a squishy one like this pales in comparison in terms of workability and has some bit of actual parity.

And, no, I imagine his mom repeatedly calling him a her when it's been explained and talked about and talked about and talked about would make her the one that is the prick.

[Eloi]

Depends on how much of an ass they want to be about it, really. Considering the problem is usually one of A. death or B. eviction and confiscation of property, a squishy one like this pales in comparison in terms of workability and has some bit of actual parity.

Well please describe a method in which involves teaching your parent how to act that doesn't involve making yourself out to be a prick. As I am not sure how he would implement that without talking down to her.

[golentan]

I agree, actually.

And while you can't force acceptance or understanding, you can demand tolerance.

You can't force two people to be friends, but you can force them not to shoot each other (well, within limits).

If someone is unwilling to tolerate you as a result of something you consider intrinsic to your being, that person isn't worth keeping around: If they abandon you so be it. If they're willing to tolerate something, you need not concern yourself with the matter in a particularly meaningful way.

If the person is willing to tolerate such a thing, and remain on good terms in spite of not understanding the thing, and in spite of not accepting it as a valid concern?

That person is very much worth keeping around. More so, in some ways, than those who understand and accept you for something as the basis of your friendship. They are no fairweather friend, they're someone to trust, and confide in.

[Coidzor]

Well please describe a method in which involves teaching your parent how to act that doesn't involve making yourself out to be a prick. As I am not sure how he would implement that without talking down to her.

See, I was initially imagining something like a reasonably calm introductory explanation of what was going down and some elements of persuasive speaking with out and out verbal sparring and an argument-fight breaking out before condescion would occur.

And golentan did sum up what I was thinking better than I did. It doesn't matter if Danne's mother understands. It mostly matters that Danne's mother doesn't antagonize Danne about it. The way things are, it apparently weighs on Danne's psyche that this secret is between the two of them. Danne is also reasonably sure that Danne's mother will not kill or evict Danne for the knowledge of his FtM status.

[Mystic Muse]

Thanks everyone!

And thanks for the Link Jackie!

[Delusion]

Danne, if you have GiD then you most likely should seek therapy sooner or later anyway. I know I intend to.

[golentan]

Squee! Met cute guy at coffeehouse tonight. Probably nothing there, but he was so adorable, and capable of following my ridiculous logic twists.

[Lix Lorn]

Yay for Golentan! ^_^

[Danne]

Danne, if you have GiD then you most likely should seek therapy sooner or later anyway. I know I intend to.

I would if my confusion bothered me personally in any way. But it doesn't. Being FtM (or just lacking a gender, I can never figure out which) does not cause me distress except in the fact that I worry it might cause the people I care about distress (which might then be transferred to me via arguments and such). But I'm perfectly happy with who I am. Confusion isn't always a bad thing, you know.

Squee! Met cute guy at coffeehouse tonight. Probably nothing there, but he was so adorable, and capable of following my ridiculous logic twists.

D'aww. Sounds like a keeper to me. Let us know how it goes.

[Rauthiss]

Haven't been here in a while, but I thought I might throw up that any of you interested in artistic analysis might find Lady Gaga's video for Alejandro interesting.

[Viera Champion]

Noooooo!! I'll never see Quinton again!!!! (Probably a huge exageration) My young over obsessive gay crush!! Whatever will I do! Damn him! I can't help but feel like he's avoiding me. We will be heading off to different high schools next year (something I've already explained). He's going to The Maryland School for the Deaf. A boarding school. It's in a diferent state, but still isn't horribly far away from the city my family and his family live in, so he will be at home on weekends still. But then he will probably want to be with his family most of the time. So I want to have him come over to my house once or twice throughout the summer before we go our seperate ways, but he always has some excuse (yes I do know it's early in the summer, but as I said, over obsessive young gay crush, I'm going to be paranoid). Of course he is one of the only two people who knows I'm bisexual. So I think it'll be funny when in a few years I tell him that I used to (and might still) have a crush on him. And now I'm getting off topic...

[Lix Lorn]

(hugs Kurama)
You can angst all you like! It'll be okay, honest!

[npc revolution]

I support you guys.

That is all.

[Serpentine]

There's an app a sigatar for that

[Lioness]

I just have to come in here and say...I am so glad this thread exists. It's completely opened up my awareness of the world, and of gender issues. I now find myself getting unreasonably irritated at people who use 'gay' as an insult, and make facetious, negative comments about transsexuals. My dance teacher was complaining a while ago about MtF using female bathrooms, apparently is was 'fundamentally wrong'. It disturbed me in some odd way, that people can be tolerant of so much, but not at all understanding of this kind of thing.

Thanks for opening up my eyes to the world :)

[Jacklu]

It is a good thread. Note that I have started the last few personally. ^_^ I can't stand it when people use "gay" as an insult, as more often than not it is not a case where the word has taken on a double meaning but where "gay" that is, "homosexual" is meant to be a negative thing to compare other stuff to, to give an impression of just how stupid or idiot the thing is.

[Lord Raziere]

I just have to come in here and say...I am so glad this thread exists. It's completely opened up my awareness of the world, and of gender issues. I now find myself getting unreasonably irritated at people who use 'gay' as an insult, and make facetious, negative comments about transsexuals. My dance teacher was complaining a while ago about MtF using female bathrooms, apparently is was 'fundamentally wrong'. It disturbed me in some odd way, that people can be tolerant of so much, but not at all understanding of this kind of thing.

Thanks for opening up my eyes to the world :)

Agreed...but my awareness was pretty wide before, this just opens it up a little wider, a little more awareness for everyone on everything is always good.
The saddest thing about this of course being...the word "gay" used to mean "happy"....how can we go from using a word to express happiness to using it as an insult? I dunno why, buts that is the thing that disturbs me the most, granted that there is a hundred years difference or so...but it still doesn't make sense, how did the word even resurface in common lingual usage?

still, hope things get better.

[Jacklu]

Also, an interesting consideration:

My SO is MtF, I am transgendered female but not intending to be MtF. That means that from a physical perspective (to anyone looking at us without knowing us) we are a gay couple. From the perspective of how our physical sex will eventually be, we are a straight couple. From a gender perspective, we are a lesbian couple. =D I am currently in a relationship that spans almost every conceivable relationship type depending on how you look at it!

[Eloi]

Agreed...but my awareness was pretty wide before, this just opens it up a little wider, a little more awareness for everyone on everything is always good.
The saddest thing about this of course being...the word "gay" used to mean "happy"....how can we go from using a word to express happiness to using it as an insult? I dunno why, buts that is the thing that disturbs me the most, granted that there is a hundred years difference or so...but it still doesn't make sense, how did the word even resurface in common lingual usage?

still, hope things get better.

I think the misuse of the word 'queer' is also lament worthy. I mean, its such a useful word, I first knew about it in its original meaning a la The Hobbit, and its a shame they twisted it in such a way..

[golentan]

Also, an interesting consideration:

My SO is MtF, I am transgendered female but not intending to be MtF. That means that from a physical perspective (to anyone looking at us without knowing us) we are a gay couple. From the perspective of how our physical sex will eventually be, we are a straight couple. From a gender perspective, we are a lesbian couple. =D I am currently in a relationship that spans almost every conceivable relationship type depending on how you look at it!

You, my friend, have not even begun to scratch the surface of "Conceivable Relationship types."

Though your innocence is adorable.

[Lycan 01]

I've also found this to be an... interesting thread. I've always been an open-minded and accepting individual, and my views often clash with the majority of the people around me, who are very... I'm not even sure what the proper term would be. I'm from Central Mississippi, in the heart of the Deep South. I think that says it all.

At any rate, I popped in here to ask a few questions for my GF, but I decided to stick around and keep reading and commenting since I support LGBT rights and understanding. I gotta say, it has opened my eyes a bit more to a few things, and helped me to be more understanding of certain things. It makes me sad, though, when I overhear some of things my friends say, and realize I'm one of the most accepting people in my entire circle of friends, except for my girlfriend.

[Danne]

I just have to come in here and say...I am so glad this thread exists. It's completely opened up my awareness of the world, and of gender issues. I now find myself getting unreasonably irritated at people who use 'gay' as an insult, and make facetious, negative comments about transsexuals. My dance teacher was complaining a while ago about MtF using female bathrooms, apparently is was 'fundamentally wrong'. It disturbed me in some odd way, that people can be tolerant of so much, but not at all understanding of this kind of thing.

Thanks for opening up my eyes to the world :)

Now see, I find nothing unreasonable about getting irritated at those comments. I don't allow anyone to use "gay" pejoratively in front of me, and I try to educate them about why if they're open to it. I've never had anyone complain to me about MtFs using female bathrooms, but if I did it would be the start of a heated debate, and I'd probably try to find a new teacher. (I mean, MtFs are girls. It would be "fundamentally wrong" for them to use the men's room.)

And yes. 'Tis a wonderful thread.