LGBTitp - Part Six

[Danne]

True, unless you count "Mulan", "Pocahontas", "Aladdin", "the Jungle Book", "Cool Runnings", "Squanto: A Warrior's Tale", "Remember The Titans", "Snow Dogs", "Lilo & Stitch", any of the movies that featured a non-human cast (which I think is most of them), or any of the others I probably didn't list.

Disney ain't perfect, but I think that's a slight exaggeration.

Sweetie, take another look at those movies. Jasmine is a white girl dressed up to look like an Arabian princess. Mulan is a white girl with some Oriental facial features. Pocahontas actually has some color in her skin, but the movie's not exactly PC in its portrayal of Native Americans. The primary theme of the Jungle Book movie is that Mowgli can't stay in the Jungle because the races species aren't supposed to live together. Lilo & Stitch was pretty good, though, I'll grant you that one. Haven't seen the others, so I can't say.

Somehow, I think the idea of a sexually aware and awakened child should be found more disturbing than what their sexuality actually was. And active, hoo boy, that's like, doubleplusungoodawkward^doubleplusawkward.

Nonsense. Kids have crushes all the time. Some kids have crushes that are the same gender as they are, i.e., they're gay and they know it. There's a common misconception that kids that age can't know for sure, but it's wrong. I can't tell you how many people I know who are (or articles I've read written by) gay teens or adults who knew when they were little. I agree wholeheartedly that nine- or twelve-year-olds shouldn't be sexually active, but that doesn't mean they can't be gay. There's more to it than sex, you know.

[Coidzor]

^: Give the animated one some credit, it was remarkably lacking in racist tone until they unveiled King Louie. Or was the snake a racist caricature too? Can never remember if that was one of their racist caricature voices or just an oily git voice. It's the non-animated one that had all of the racial overtones. ...I think that one was also Disney.

Nonsense. Kids have crushes all the time. Some kids have crushes that are the same gender as they are, i.e., they're gay and they know it. There's a common misconception that kids that age can't know for sure, but it's wrong. I can't tell you how many people I know who are (or articles I've read written by) gay teens or adults who knew when they were little. I agree wholeheartedly that nine- or twelve-year-olds shouldn't be sexually active, but that doesn't mean they can't be gay. There's more to it than sex, you know.

Hmm, point. I think I'm just more easily skeeved/overly paranoidly sensitive out after having spent far too much time around toddlers for a non-parent humanoid that hasn't had whatever part of the brain removed that those that can work with children have taken out of them. That and hearing about this one girl who works with both abused kids in one job and orphans in another.

So I guess really I wish I didn't have to think about children at all. Too much horror there.

Sorry for the tangent.

[Lix Lorn]

Well, there's always trying for something short(isher) term and getting disgusted with him that way so it doesn't linger and cause angst.

If I could persuade him, I woulda done. He has a boyfriend now, anyway...

[Murdim]

I have someone I like. Lucky for me, he IS gay!
...
Shame I'm MtF, huh?

(headdesk)
XD

Everybody ! We are in an urgent need of those beautiful real-life love stories where a transsexual and their straight or gay partner stay together through the transition and live happily ever after despite that pesky "gender" problem.

Man, I know how that goes. My mum went on a rant once about how bisexuals don't really exist. According to her, people identifying as bisexual are either just gay/straight and confused, or so desperate for a relationship that they'll take whatever they can get. Awk-ward. It's one of the reasons I haven't discussed my doin's with her, even though she's pretty liberal in other respects.

Sadly, I know too well how one can be led to biphobia. When you hear so-called experts from all sides reject bisexuality as a valid sexual orientation. When the question of homosexuality is more often seen as one of lifestyle, something that you are or aren't, rather than a discrete value or group of value of a parameter of our infinitely complex and nuanced psyche. When the "gay culture" itself strongly support the previous assumption and keep trying to enforce their "specificities" (i.e their internal conformism) into the notion of gay identity. When there's such a big fuss around the eternal "gay or straight" question, both at a personal and at a public level. When at the same time, nobody around you or in the media ever envisions being bisexual, except as a joke, as a stunt, or as a way to display their promiscuity. When in fact, bisexual people are often either "gaywashed", or just ignored when they are in an heterosexual relationship. When the dissonance between "homosexuality isn't a choice" and "bisexuals are just indecise and should choose being either straight or gay" doesn't seem to disturb so many of our supposed allies. When the delusional search for a "gay gene" as the single, binary cause of homosexuality is so followed and popular and sensational and mediatised. When female bisexuality is so overexploited as a cheap stunt in so many different contexts. When "bi now, gay later" is common knowledge. When those rare persons that are presented as bisexual in the media are either obvious closet cases, slutty wannabes, cheating bastards (who sometimes use their sexuality as a sh*tty excuse), or effing criminals. When people keep, keep, keep repeating that "we're not sure" if bisexuality really exists. When... ...... .. ..... . .......... ..... ... ........ ...... ........... ....... ... ........... ......

All those things tend to make you forget that it's wrong and incredibly arrogant to pretend to know what people can and can't feel. Worse, it can even make you forget that it's wrong, incredibly arrogant, and mind-bogglingly stupid to pretend that people can't really feel something you're feeling yourself, even under the inane justification that you're "just confused, in a phase" and that you'll "figure it out".

[Jacklu]

Oy... I've never been able to wrap my head around the "Bisexuality doesn't exist" thing. I just can't comprehend how somebody that admits that homosexuality is real, and trangenderism is real, and a whole slue of other "queer" states of being are real can look at someone claiming to be bisexual and say "Oh, that doesn't exist, you are just confused/slutty/looking for attention." Granted, being bisexual myself (or something close enough that it is easier to go with that for simplicity) I might be slightly biased. I mean, I know that I find girls attractive and I find guys attractive. How exactly does anyone other than me find themselves qualified to somehow validate whether I do or do not, in fact, find both men an woman attractive?

On a related note, I think that what I am actually most attracted to is... well, the gray area between distinct sexual states. That is, androgynous people, transsexuals, tomboys, ect... Basically, I find people who have a blend of both sexes in their features. =3

Also, while the racism in Disney discussion is an interesting one, I wonder if it has a bit too much potential to wander into RL politics/religion. <.< >.>

[Serpentine]

Sweetie, take another look at those movies. Jasmine is a white girl dressed up to look like an Arabian princess. Mulan is a white girl with some Oriental facial features. Pocahontas actually has some color in her skin, but the movie's not exactly PC in its portrayal of Native Americans. The primary theme of the Jungle Book movie is that Mowgli can't stay in the Jungle because the races species aren't supposed to live together. Lilo & Stitch was pretty good, though, I'll grant you that one. Haven't seen the others, so I can't say.

Watch the condescending tone. More importantly, though, even if they didn't take the greatest of care with all their depictions, the fact remains that your statement:

I mean, Disney only just released the first film where the character wasn't white.

is patently and categorically false.
Say "it's the first reasonable and realistic, non-racist depiction of a black person", if you like, you might be right there. But what you said is simply wrong.

Said this before, but anyways. People think sexuality is a switch - Up and you're straight, down and you're gay. If you put it in-between the light goes all brown and buzzy, and noone likes that.
My sexuality chart was an attempt to show that sexuality is a gradient, not a switch.

[ZombieRockStar]

^: Hey, it is a switch...when I see a pretty girl, I put it on "likes girls" and if I see a cute guy, I put it on "likes guys." People just get bothered 'cause it gets like I'm throwing a rave.

I've never encountered any anti-bi sentiment outside the internet, and my general attitude towards that is not to care since, honestly, there are people on the internet who believe <conspiracy theory here>. But what baffles me is that someone feels they can make an assumption like that, especially when they often don't seem to know any bisexuals themselves (aside from maybe some girls pretending to be to attract guys). How can you tell me I'm only fooling myself if you don't actually know me?

Actually, this kinda extends to the whole queer spectrum, doesn't it? Like, how people just "know" that all gay guys are hyper-sexed without actually knowing any (out) gay guys. I read an article a long while ago (in a national newspaper no less) where the author more or less said that she didn't think transgenderism was real, simply because she didn't know any trans-people, and I was like: doesn't that imply the exact opposite—that you have absolutely no authority to make a judgement on the subject?

(Note: I may be mis-remembering the article—I can't seem to find it on said newspaper's website, but I think we've all known someone like that)

Everybody ! We are in an urgent need of those beautiful real-life love stories where a transsexual and their straight or gay partner stay together through the transition and live happily ever after despite that pesky "gender" problem.

I don't have any of people staying together through the transition (i.e. starting out as one gender and ending up as the other), but I have plenty of transmen/women finding good relationships. Offhand I know, irl, a gay guy whose boyfriend got into the relationship thinking he was getting a guy with a penis, but they stayed together anyway and are going on over a year now...and then there's two girls who found each other and got engaged...

Honestly, go over to the Relationships thread and you'll kinda realize that straight (cis)people don't have it any easier than the rest of us, but I tend to be an optimist. Keep looking; I promise you there's someone out there who will love you for you. Whether you're gay/les/bi/trans or that particular breed of asexual who wants a romantic relationship but not a sexual one or whatever.

On a related note, I think that what I am actually most attracted to is... well, the gray area between distinct sexual states. That is, androgynous people, transsexuals, tomboys, ect... Basically, I find people who have a blend of both sexes in their features. =3

Hey...that kinda sums me up a bit too. Thing is, I would tend to classify that as "having a type" more than sexuality. Like, I like both guys and girls and are attracted to the physical features of both, but I still have particular "types" of guys and girls that I like, and two of those types seem to be shy, effeminate guys and tomboyish girls, or anyone who's willing to tell traditional gender roles what to do with themselves, but I can easily imagine someone bi who likes their men manly and their girls girly. May or may not be the same thing you feel.

[Rauthiss]

ZRS, I'll have to echo your sentiments on who is qualified to make judgements about LGBT folks. At my high school, the AP Psych class always had students create psych "experiments", and go out and test them, through surveys and what have you. Aside from many, many other problems that you get when you have inexperienced students making experiments*, the one that bothered me was the inevitable "Is being gay biological or a choice" project.
Students would go out and distribute their surveys to everyone, then take that information and make conclusions based off of it. As a student of science myself, it was incredibly difficult for me not to rip their posters apart right there. I mean, how much knowledge can a straight high school student have about gay people of any age? Gh, it still irks me to no end. Forever Curious knows what I'm talking about, and he agrees.

*Oh god, they were horrible. Incredibly biased surveys, conclusions drawn from totally unrelated data... DX

[ZombieRockStar]

Students would go out and distribute their surveys to everyone, then take that information and make conclusions based off of it.

Argumentum ad populum, aka truth-by-consensus or "wikiality" to Colbert fans. I hope someone pointed out to them that all their survey "proves" is that a statistical majority of the students at your HS believed whatever, not that whatever itself is true.

This has been your rhetorical/logical fallacies lesson for the day. You will be quizzed on this later.

Unless of course they were using the survey data to talk about why the students would believe that being gay is a choice (I assume that's what at least some of the data said) such as their economic situation, religious upbringing, whatever...in which case the sample size would not be remotely large enough, but it's HS, what are you gonna do?

[/tangent]

[golentan]

Years without even an illusion of hope. Something's wrong here.

Ahahaha...

Coidzor, some day I may have to tell you about a little trait of people that I like to call "Resonance."

Rauthiss & Keith Richards: It could be a well designed experiment on the sexual attitudes of the populace in general, rather than an attempt to glean useful information on the causes and courses of sexual orientation.

A well designed survey should avoid biasing people's answers on immediate viewing of its professed goal, unless measurement of biasing tendencies is it's goal.

[Niezck]

As an aside to the current conversation topics - how do people feel that upbringing affects sexual orientation, if at all? Is it something you're just "born as", or do you feel that how you're raised, where you go to school etc can influence it?

And, just something to think about in that respect, what about single sex schools? I go to an all boys school (well, college now) and have found that people coming out as gay/bisexual has generally been social suicide, so to speak. However, since I haven't experienced "regular" school life (ie, M & F) I can't really comment on how different that is to the "norm".

[Serpentine]

There's a whole lot of studies and things. For example:
- If it's genetic, it will be multiple genes, many or all of which are reproductively advantageous when found in heterosexuals, and which may be kin-selectively advantageous when found in homosexuals.
- There is some evidence that sexual abuse can influence the development of homosexuality. Did I word that well enough? Not in a "most gay people were abused!" way, so much as "people who are abused are slightly more likely to be gay than the rest of the population". Cause-effect has not been established in that, so far as I know.
- There is evidence for in-utero (that the right term?) effects, based on birth-order. That is, when a woman has multiple sons, the younger sons are more likely to be gay. This is not genetic, but is biological. It is theorised that this is a kin-selection advantage evolutionary development.
- I don't know what evidence there is for the role of upbringing.

Basically, it is probably a mix of things, genetic, non-genetic biological, and experience-related, but mostly biological in most cases.
It's worth noting, too, that the vast majority of homosexuality-related studies are solely or primarily about male homosexuality, not female.

[Murdim]

A well designed survey should avoid biasing people's answers on immediate viewing of its professed goal, unless measurement of biasing tendencies is it's goal.

Also, unless it is a political survey. In which case the most well-designed survey is always the one which puts the most bias into the desired result.

Actually, this kinda extends to the whole queer spectrum, doesn't it? Like, how people just "know" that all gay guys are hyper-sexed without actually knowing any (out) gay guys. I read an article a long while ago (in a national newspaper no less) where the author more or less said that she didn't think transgenderism was real, simply because she didn't know any trans-people, and I was like: doesn't that imply the exact opposite—that you have absolutely no authority to make a judgement on the subject?

Yeah. Gay men and lesbians are slightly better off when it comes to mainstream acceptance, since almost everybody recognize at least that they do exist, and that they aren't just fooling themselves into thinking they love the same sex... somehow, for some reason. But crass ignorance and stereotyping are still rampant for every letter in the acronym, even among mostly tolerant people - those who are perfectly fine with LGBT people but sees them as a very distinct, internally homogenous "other".

As an aside to the current conversation topics - how do people feel that upbringing affects sexual orientation, if at all? Is it something you're just "born as", or do you feel that how you're raised, where you go to school etc can influence it?

The thing to keep in mind is that even if we assume that upbringing and life experiences do have an influence on sexual orientation, it does not mean that homosexuality can be intentionally "cured", that gay people can "recruit" hapless heterosexuals into their "lifestyle", that you can raise children to become straight or gay, or that certain events are inherently "gay-ifying" or "straight-ifying". The overlapping, interacting influence of social and environmental factors would be much, much more intricated and undecipherable than that. And (apparently not-so-) obviously, that doesn't make it any more of a choice.

But, yeah, what Serpentine said.

[Niezck]

@Murdim

I wasn't trying to say it was something akin to a birth "defect" or whatever, simply how people view it comes about. Or whether, in fact, sexuality is something that can change later in life through experiences, changes in views and opinions, etc

[Dogmantra]

- There is evidence for in-utero (that the right term?) effects, based on birth-order. That is, when a woman has multiple sons, the younger sons are more likely to be gay. This is not genetic, but is biological. It is theorised that this is a kin-selection advantage evolutionary development.

This kinda makes sense to me. If a woman's having plenty of sons, the youngest ones being gay prevents over-population down the line when they're old enough to breed. That's definitely not the only reason for homosexuality, but I can see why that might happen. Plus it lets me say cool stuff like "Homosexuality: Saving the human race since the dawn of time". And I like saying cool stuff.

[Serpentine]

I think it's more of a "realisation" than a "change". I think it's more likely to be suppressed than caused, if you know what I'm trying to get it.

edit @^: The theory I've heard is that gay siblings, with no offspring of their own, will help to raise their nieces and nephews, and so increase the fitness of their kin.

[Nameless]

This kinda makes sense to me. If a woman's having plenty of sons, the youngest ones being gay prevents over-population down the line when they're old enough to breed. That's definitely not the only reason for homosexuality, but I can see why that might happen. Plus it lets me say cool stuff like "Homosexuality: Saving the human race since the dawn of time". And I like saying cool stuff.

I actually read about that somewhere. But I think it has to do more with the hormones rather then saving the planet from over-population.

[Dogmantra]

I actually read about that somewhere. But I think it has to do more with the hormones rather then saving the planet from over-population.

Look, we can do this the realistic way or the awesome way. Seriously, if you don't want to be able to say "Homosexuality: Saving the human race since forever", then I don't want to talk to you.

[Nameless]

Look, we can do this the realistic way or the awesome way. Seriously, if you don't want to be able to say "Homosexuality: Saving the human race since forever", then I don't want to talk to you.

Why am I suddenly getting an image of camp men running around beating people up in tights and capes?

[Dogmantra]

Why am I suddenly getting an image of camp men running around beating people up in tights and capes?

Because society has taught you that all camp men are gay?

[Serpentine]

What did the tights and cape-wearing people do to the camp men?

[Nameless]

Because society has taught you that all camp men are gay?

Damn you society! You're media has infiltrated my imagination!

[Murdim]

What did the tights and cape-wearing people do to the camp men?

It had to do with saving the human race ! Also, Batman and Robin.

[Phae Nymna]

This kinda makes sense to me. If a woman's having plenty of sons, the youngest ones being gay prevents over-population down the line when they're old enough to breed. That's definitely not the only reason for homosexuality, but I can see why that might happen. Plus it lets me say cool stuff like "Homosexuality: Saving the human race since the dawn of time". And I like saying cool stuff.

Well, as a proud gay man and a younger brother, I'd agree with this.

[Ilena]

As an aside to the current conversation topics - how do people feel that upbringing affects sexual orientation, if at all? Is it something you're just "born as", or do you feel that how you're raised, where you go to school etc can influence it?

And, just something to think about in that respect, what about single sex schools? I go to an all boys school (well, college now) and have found that people coming out as gay/bisexual has generally been social suicide, so to speak. However, since I haven't experienced "regular" school life (ie, M & F) I can't really comment on how different that is to the "norm".

Well, all i can say in response to this is, I was always told growing up that its suppposed to be a man and a woman, not two men or two women, so i think upbringing may have something to do with it but in my case? Not at all.

[Serpentine]

That would be the "suppression" part I was referring to.

At my senior prom, a lesbian couple was crowned Queen and Queen - something that has never happened in the history of our school system.

The entire senior class stood up, cheered and applauded.

Our school's acceptance GMH.

edit: I just realised something interesting... I have never been told "love should only be between a man and a woman" or "homosexuality is wrong" or anything like that from any source. I've also never really been told "homosexuality is a-okay!" or similar. My mum was fine with my (not-quite-openly) gay friend Cory, and my dad introduced me to a couple of gay workmates of his. That's about it. It never came up in any church service I've been to. Never came up at school - I could be wrong, but although Cory got picked on heaps at school I don't think it was ever (blatantly) because of his homosexuality (more because he sang Britney Spears' Hit Me Baby One More Time in front of the whole school...). My mum didn't like me watching the Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras, but I think that was more because, well, people were sometimes nekkid in it. On the other hand, my dad was totally fine for me to watch it. They're pretty much the extent of my experience with "homosexuality is good/bad" claims directed at me.

[Lix Lorn]

... <3
Hope is a nice thing to have.

[Thufir]

Plus it lets me say cool stuff like "Homosexuality: Saving the human race since the dawn of time". And I like saying cool stuff.

I'm afraid the human race hasn't been around since the dawn of time.

[Eloi]

I'm afraid the human race hasn't been around since the dawn of time.

Since the dawn of the human conception and measurement of time?

[Dogmantra]

I'm afraid the human race hasn't been around since the dawn of time.

There are two ways we can resolve this, the first is me going "Blah blah blah not been around since the dawn of time shmot been around since the dawn of time." Or you can accept my retcon so that it means the creation of time, that is to say, the laying out of hours, minutes, seconds, etc. by humans, which humans were around for.