[3.5] Orb of X

[Irreverent Fool]

It's generally agreed-upon that some of the best damaging spells in D&D come not from Evocation, but from Conjuration in the form of Orb of X, printed in the Complete Arcane (iirc) and reprinted in the Spell Compendium.

The reason for this, of course, is that these orbs require only a touch attack and allow one to do scaling energy damage to a single target that does not gain the benefit of its SR in such a case. The other reason is that use of these spells allows a specialist wizard to ban Evocation and never look back.

Well, I came about this tidbit when comparing the Factotum's 'Cunning Breach' text to the SRD text (Cunning Breach makes reference to creatures failing SR checks to avoid your spell whereas the SRD clearly states SR is bypassed by the caster. It is not a check on the target's part). That's neither here nor there. Here's the relevant text, found under Spell Resistance:

Spell Resistance:
Conjuration

These spells are usually not subject to spell resistance unless the spell conjures some form of energy. Spells that summon creatures or produce effects that function like creatures are not subject to spell resistance.

I'm aware that in D&D, specific trumps general and that this has no bearing on the RAW that state the orb of X spells do not allow SR, but really, this seems like a very specific example that was just overlooked.

obnoxious
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[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It wasn't overlooked, the Orb of X spells are instantaneous Conjuration (Creation) effects. Such effects create something, and that something is 100% real as though it were a mundane, nonmagical object/effect. Orb of Fire creates real fire, and SR does not apply to real fire like it would for magical fire.

Creation

A creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature in the place the spellcaster designates (subject to the limits noted above). If the spell has a duration other than instantaneous, magic holds the creation together, and when the spell ends, the conjured creature or object vanishes without a trace. If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence.

Even core conjuration spells which conjure some form of energy ignore SR, from the lowly Acid Splash to the mighty Incendiary Cloud. I'm guessing that the monster entry for spell resistance which you've quoted was just copied and pasted from the 3.0 monster manual, back when spell effects and their relation to spell resistance made less sense.

[Frosty]

Except for the completely non-magical orb of force...the spells make sense. I mean, what am I doing here? Channeling my inner Chi into a Hadouken?

[Darkfire]

Let's not forget that orb of fire somehow causes more damage than the 'real' thing as does orb of acid and both can inflict a status effect (dazed and sickened respectively). For any of these spells to justify their spell resistance, their damage should be capped at the same level as the equivalent natural/alchemical effects.

[Gorgondantess]

Let's not forget that orb of fire somehow causes more damage than the 'real' thing as does orb of acid and both can inflict a status effect (dazed and sickened respectively). For any of these spells to justify their spell resistance, their damage should be capped at the same level as the equivalent natural/alchemical effects.

I actually kindof agree with you, but playing the devil's advocate, the damage done by real fire is generally assumed to be from, say, wood- and your average wood doesn't burn very hotly, so, for simplicity's sake, they set it at one value. However, if this is magically created fire, can't it be very, very hot fire? Magically empowered alchemist's fire also does more damage, even though it's still regular, real fire.

[Irreverent Fool]

It wasn't overlooked, the Orb of X spells are instantaneous Conjuration (Creation) effects. Such effects create something, and that something is 100% real as though it were a mundane, nonmagical object/effect. Orb of Fire creates real fire, and SR does not apply to real fire like it would for magical fire.

Even core conjuration spells which conjure some form of energy ignore SR, from the lowly Acid Splash to the mighty Incendiary Cloud. I'm guessing that the monster entry for spell resistance which you've quoted was just copied and pasted from the 3.0 monster manual, back when spell effects and their relation to spell resistance made less sense.

By that definition, can I use orb of acid to fill vials up? The definition I quoted wasn't a monster entry but is listed under the definition of Spell Resistance in the SRD.

obnoxious
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[taltamir]

the orb of acid produce higher quantities of acid with higher PH. Alchemical acid is relatively low concentration (high enough to burn though)... thats part of why you have improved alchemical acid that does more damage...

but yea, a lot of it makes no sense... for example... Orb of Sound, Orb of Force, Orb of Ice, Orb of Lightening.

[Yora]

Except for the completely non-magical orb of force...the spells make sense.

Ever tried to throw flames? Or cold?
And the process of conjuring elektricity is called evocation.

I think the Orb spells were really just created so that wizards could ban evocation and still use energy damage AND don't have to bother about SR.
Which defeats the purpose of both school banning and SR.

[Volthawk]

Except for the completely non-magical orb of force...the spells make sense. I mean, what am I doing here? Channeling my inner Chi into a Hadouken?

Well, there are Force dragons...

[Irreverent Fool]

Well, there are Force dragons...

You mean Ryu?

*runs*

obnoxious
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[Volthawk]

You mean Ryu?

*runs*

obnoxious
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[Optimystik]

I_F... By your logic, a creature with SR should be completely safe while on the Elemental Plane of Fire. (which, by the way, burns hotter than "regular fire" - 3d10 per round instead of 1d6 per minute.)

[RagnaroksChosen]

Those to me realy should be Evocation much as melfs acid arrow should be evocation.

[Trixie]

By that definition, can I use orb of acid to fill vials up? The definition I quoted wasn't a monster entry but is listed under the definition of Spell Resistance in the SRD.

Well, I'd rule it melts through all possible containers, unless they're so expensive it sort of defeats the whole purpose.

[satorian]

Well, I'd rule it melts through all possible containers, unless they're so expensive it sort of defeats the whole purpose.

Really? At high levels, I'd pay a lot to have bottled acid that strong. Also, last I checked, acid just doesn't burn through glass, regardless of pH.

I'd rather say that elements brought into being by Orb spells are elementally "pure" in the classical sense, perhaps summoned from the deepest reaches of the elemental planes. The magic that summons these elements, though strong, is unstable, and can only hold the orb here for a short amount of time (like summon monster) before they blip back home. Force is summoned from, um, the belly of an extraplanar force dragon. Or from the willpower of a dying god. Yeah, that's the ticket.

[Optimystik]

Orb of Acid is extremely volatile and evaporates almost immediately after splattering on the target. Problem solved, no bottles of acid to accumulate.

[Starbuck_II]

Ever tried to throw flames? Or cold?
And the process of conjuring elektricity is called evocation.

I think the Orb spells were really just created so that wizards could ban evocation and still use energy damage AND don't have to bother about SR.
Which defeats the purpose of both school banning and SR.

This how you throw fireballs:
http://video.about.com/chemistry/Handheld-Fireballs.htm

[Emmerask]

This how you throw fireballs:
http://video.about.com/chemistry/Handheld-Fireballs.htm

I think in the fluff text it does say that it is a ball made completely out of <insert element>, so no flammable ball inside the orb of fire ^^

[Beelzebub1111]

I think that a good comparison would be the Wall of Iron spell. It is an instantaneous Conjuration (Creation) spell that creates nonmagical matter from nothing. And that's what the orb spells do. They create nonmagical matter/energy from nothing.

Spell Resistance itself is sort of questionable as to why it would exist and affect some spells and not others. There's really no description on as to HOW or WHY it works on any spell at all or even why it only works some of the time. Yet if we accept that spell resistance works, and that it can be overcome, then why can't we accept that there are certain spells that ignore it?

But at least it's something beatable rather than in second edition where it was a flat percentage whether you were level 1 or level 30. It made fighting mind flayers and ropers IMPOSSIBLE if you where a wizard without the Lower Resistance spell.

[John Campbell]

I actually kindof agree with you, but playing the devil's advocate, the damage done by real fire is generally assumed to be from, say, wood- and your average wood doesn't burn very hotly, so, for simplicity's sake, they set it at one value.

Actually, in D&D 3.5, your average wood doesn't burn at all.

[Yuki Akuma]

I think in the fluff text it does say that it is a ball made completely out of <insert element>, so no flammable ball inside the orb of fire ^^

Actually, the fluff says all the Orb of X spells are balls of acid.

No, seriously, go read them.

[Kylarra]

Actually, the fluff says all the Orb of X spells are balls of acid.

No, seriously, go read them.

Yesss I was coming in here to point that out. Fear my sonic damage dealing acid.

[Mongoose87]

Except for the completely non-magical orb of force...the spells make sense. I mean, what am I doing here? Channeling my inner Chi into a Hadouken?

That's simple. You use The Force.

[Yora]

I think that a good comparison would be the Wall of Iron spell. It is an instantaneous Conjuration (Creation) spell that creates nonmagical matter from nothing. And that's what the orb spells do. They create nonmagical matter/energy from nothing.

What does evocation do?

It's of course a trick question. The answer is "create energy from nothing".

[RagnaroksChosen]

I really think they needed to come up with dual schools for core. there are a few spells that could cross between schools.

[Sinfire Titan]

[Explaining the joke]Ryu also means Dragon in Japanese. Its a Pun.[/Explaining the joke]

[Volthawk]

[Explaining the joke]Ryu also means Dragon in Japanese. Its a Pun.[/Explaining the joke]

Oh....

Well, I don't speak Japanese