Results 1 to 26 of 26
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    HalfOrcPirate

    Join Date
    Mar 2010

    Default Explain the light shield to me.

    I've taken a closer look at shields, now that I have a new melee centered cleric.

    This kind of cleric focuses on sword and board fighting and my DM therefore does not want me to use a buckler. But in order to cast in combat, I need a free hand.

    Now the choices are the following:

    Buckler: 1 AC, free hand for spells, weapons or any other item.
    Light: 1 AC, free hand for items and spells.
    Heavy: 2 AC, no free hand, can't cast.
    Tower: 4 AC, no free hand, can't cast.

    What struck me as odd was the fact that a light shield and buckler have the same AC, yet the buckler is superior in most ways. You can wield a weapon two handed or use an offhand weapon, which is not possible with the other shields. You can't bash with a buckler, but there are very few classes that do anyway.

    So, why does a light shield only have 1 ac, and not 2, if it is inferior to a buckler?

    If you gave the light shield 2 ac and the heavy shield 3 ac, it would make some sense.

    Edit: Yes, I do now about somatic weaponry (complete mage), but I'd rather not use another feat for a class that doesn't have so many in the first place.
    Last edited by Panigg; 2010-04-07 at 04:57 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Zeta Kai's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    The Final Chapter
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Explain the light shield to me.

    I noticed this problem back in the day, & I house-ruled that Light Shields provide +2 AC & Heavy Shields provide +3 AC. As for the RAW versions, I'd chalk it up for incompetence on WotC's part.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Matthew's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Kanagawa, Japan
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Explain the light shield to me.

    It is a legacy issue. If you look at the pattern of development it works like this:

    OD&D (1974): Shield +1 AC
    AD&D (1979): Small Shield +1 AC, Large Shield +1 AC/+2 AC versus missiles
    AD&D (1989): Buckler +1 AC/+0 AC versus missiles, Small Shield +1 AC, Large Shield +1 AC/+2 AC versus missiles
    D20 (2000): Buckler +1 AC, Small Shield +1 AC, Large Shield +2 AC, Tower Shield (only operates as cover)
    D20 (2003): Buckler +1 AC, Small Shield +1 AC, Large Shield +2 AC, Tower Shield +4 AC
    It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after ones own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

    Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350), Tsurezure-Gusa (1340)

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Yora's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Germany

    Default Re: Explain the light shield to me.

    I would use Zeta Kais houserule, as shields are redicolously weak in D&D. In reality, a fighter would deflect far more attacks with his shield than with the armor he wears.
    Spriggan's Den - Thoughts on RPGs and some of my personal creations.

    When you start dividing quotes into blocks to reply to each paragraph seperately, that's usually a strong sign that you're no longer contributing to the thread, but just arguing over who is right.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Irreverent Fool's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2007

    Default Re: Explain the light shield to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    I would use Zeta Kais houserule, as shields are redicolously weak in D&D. In reality, a fighter would deflect far more attacks with his shield than with the armor he wears.
    Yes, but in D&D, no matter how effective your shield might be, you're still better off charging into combat with a two-handed, pouncing, leaping, power attack from horseback using shock trooper to drop your AC into the basement while retaining your full chance to hit.

    Or you know, just asking the wizard to deal with it.

    If you're willing to burn the feats to get to Agile Shield Fighter, you can make an offhand attack with your shield on a full attack, retain the AC, and only take -2 to all of your attacks that round. In that case, though, you're better off with a heavy shield still.

    I believe there are a few classes which only get light shield proficiency, so there's that. But yeah, light shields are up there with hide armor.

    obnoxious
    sig
    Last edited by Irreverent Fool; 2010-04-07 at 10:00 AM.
    On DMPCs: "Remember, nothing will spice up your campaign quicker than long descriptions of NPCs doing spectacular stuff while the players sit around and watch." -Shamus Young, DM of the Rings
    Divide By Zero: Irreverent Fool, you are my hero.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Slayn82's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Gois, Brazil
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Explain the light shield to me.

    Well, the main difference is the price of the shields, anyway.

    And even with the AC on the floor, camouflage tactics are still fully effective. So, get improved invisibility or fog spells, and your melee char is good.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Darklord Xavez's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Wisconsin!
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Explain the light shield to me.

    Light shields have more hardness/hp. Harder to sunder, which is very good. PCs rarely think to sunder, but monsters do. And shields are easy targets.
    -Xavez
    My name is pronounced "ZAH-vez"
    Avatar by Dashwood.
    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    But you can't ride in a pack saddle unless you're an object. So better switch to Female.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Troll in the Playground
     
    herrhauptmann's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2007

    Default Re: Explain the light shield to me.

    Don't forget that a buckler can't work on ALL the enemies surrounding you. While the shield helps against them all.

    Irreverent, you realize you're using every bit of improvement that the 2HF gets and comparing it to a core sword and board fighter, right? Sword and board didn't get nearly the love in the additional books that 2HF and TWF got.

    But even before leap attack, combat brute, shocktrooper came out, 2HF was still slightly superior to sword and board. (Kills things faster, so they get fewer actions to try and hurt you)

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Claudius Maximus's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Explain the light shield to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by herrhauptmann View Post
    Don't forget that a buckler can't work on ALL the enemies surrounding you. While the shield helps against them all.
    Where are you getting this? A buckler increases your AC against all opponents in all the same situations in which a Small Shield would.
    Multas Gratias to Kopaka for the great avatar.

    Editor and playtester for Legend. Check it out, or drop in on the Legend Chat to have all your questions answered.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    United States
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Explain the light shield to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slayn82 View Post
    Well, the main difference is the price of the shields, anyway.
    Exactly. The point of the light shield is that it is an inexpensive (and lightweight, for those of you who have DMs that care about weight loads) way to boost your armor class at low levels. They are usually sold or thrown away early on, but at level one that extra point to your AC looks pretty good.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Yora's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Germany

    Default Re: Explain the light shield to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darklord Xavez View Post
    Light shields have more hardness/hp. Harder to sunder, which is very good.
    No, that's just not true.

    Light wooden shield: Hardness 5, 7 hp
    Heavy wooden shield: Hardness 5, 15 hp
    Light steel shield: Hardness 10, 10 hp
    Heavy steel shield: Hardness 10, 20 hp

    And the price difference really isn't that much. +1 AC for 4 gp? Even at 1st level that's a huge bargain. Taking armor with 1 less to AC gives you much more than that in gp you save.
    Last edited by Yora; 2010-04-07 at 12:53 PM.
    Spriggan's Den - Thoughts on RPGs and some of my personal creations.

    When you start dividing quotes into blocks to reply to each paragraph seperately, that's usually a strong sign that you're no longer contributing to the thread, but just arguing over who is right.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Claudius Maximus's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Explain the light shield to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    No, that's just not true.

    Light wooden shield: Hardness 5, 7 hp
    Heavy wooden shield: Hardness 5, 15 hp
    Light steel shield: Hardness 10, 10 hp
    Heavy steel shield: Hardness 10, 20 hp
    I think he's comparing them to bucklers, rather than to heavy shields.
    Multas Gratias to Kopaka for the great avatar.

    Editor and playtester for Legend. Check it out, or drop in on the Legend Chat to have all your questions answered.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Montreal, Canada

    Default Re: Explain the light shield to me.

    A light shield can be used as a light weapon to bash with your off hand.

    Bucklers can't be used to bash.

    and a light shield has it's own special feat to allow you to wield a 2 handed weapon with it , just like a buckler (pike and shield style), but unlike a buckler you could also bash with it. Effectively you can get a 2 handed weapon and an offhand weapon + shield bonus (improved shield bash).

    It's feat intensive but not completely worthless.

  14. - Top - End - #14

    Default Re: Explain the light shield to me.

    I, if I'm an archer, use a Tower Shield as cover. I plant it into the ground (followed by our Warforged Monk, who is our "pack mule", who plants another 6+) and I have a nice wall of cover.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Draz74's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    San Diego
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Explain the light shield to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soranar View Post
    A light shield can be used as a light weapon to bash with your off hand.

    Bucklers can't be used to bash.
    Quoted for emphasis. This was intended to be the main advantage of Light Shields over Bucklers.
    You can call me Draz.
    Trophies:
    Spoiler
    Show

    Also of note:

    Work on my homebrew system, CRE8, is still marching slowly onwards. I think I can see the light at the end of the tunnel -- an Alpha release -- in the distance now. Read my Design Goals here.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    HalfOrcPirate

    Join Date
    Mar 2010

    Default Re: Explain the light shield to me.

    I'm not really sure why my DM doesn't want me to use bucklers either. I prefer 2 handed weapons most of the time.

    This char is not going to be totally ber in one way, but will be well rounded. I'm working on Ordained Champion, which gives some nice melee boosts. But since I plan on taking Power attack, the buckler would be my best option imho.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DwarfFighterGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Novi Sad (Serbia)
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Explain the light shield to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soranar View Post
    and a light shield has it's own special feat to allow you to wield a 2 handed weapon with it
    Only such feat I know of is Improved Buckler Defense, and it works for bucklers, not light shields.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    HalfOrcPirate

    Join Date
    Mar 2010

    Default Re: Explain the light shield to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soranar View Post
    and a light shield has it's own special feat to allow you to wield a 2 handed weapon with it , just like a buckler (pike and shield style), but unlike a buckler you could also bash with it. Effectively you can get a 2 handed weapon and an offhand weapon + shield bonus (improved shield bash).
    In theory yes. It is an ordained champion of heroin and I have to use a longsword.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Starbuck_II's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Enterprise, Alabama
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Explain the light shield to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Panigg View Post
    In theory yes. It is an ordained champion of heroin and I have to use a longsword.
    Wait, Heroin like the drug? I didn't know drugs had champions...

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Explain the light shield to me.

    I like the shield charge line of feats, turns you shield into a very powerful weapon. Free trips and dazes are harsh
    Quote Originally Posted by shadow_archmagi View Post

    DM says: WHY!? WHY!? WHY?!
    DM means: NO! NO! NO!!!
    Player hears: GOOD JOB PLAYER! DO IT AGAIN AND AGAIN!
    Pokemon Y, friend code 0146-9846-5809

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    HalfOrcPirate

    Join Date
    Mar 2010

    Default Re: Explain the light shield to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    Wait, Heroin like the drug? I didn't know drugs had champions...
    Too lazy to luck up his real name. Heronious...

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Troll in the Playground
     
    herrhauptmann's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2007

    Default Re: Explain the light shield to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Claudius Maximus View Post
    Where are you getting this? A buckler increases your AC against all opponents in all the same situations in which a Small Shield would.
    I have no idea where that came from. It sounds like I was quoting dodge though.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Troll in the Playground
     
    HalflingRogueGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Explain the light shield to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by marjan View Post
    Only such feat I know of is Improved Buckler Defense, and it works for bucklers, not light shields.
    Shield and Pike Style does it for light shields.

    The main advantage of Light Shields over Bucklers is you can shield bash with them and they're a light weapon. Combine this with Shield Slam, Shield Charge, Improved Trip, and Pounce, and a Light Shield will look very good indeed.

    JaronK

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Nidogg's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2010

    Default Re: Explain the light shield to me.

    And dont forget the cost difference. bucklers may be good for fighting with but they cost more than twice as much as the light sheilds

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DwarfFighterGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Novi Sad (Serbia)
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Explain the light shield to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by JaronK View Post
    Shield and Pike Style does it for light shields.
    Where is this feat from?

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Weezer's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Explain the light shield to me.

    It's from dragon 338 but only works with a two handed piercing polearm with reach so it's quite limited.
    At the heart of all beauty lies something inhuman, and these hills, the softness of the sky, the outline of the trees at this very minute lose the illusory meaning with which we clothed them, henceforth more remote than a lost paradise.
    -Camus, An Absurd Reasoning


    Fourth Doctor avatar courtesy of Szilard

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •