gamers

[Adamaro]

I am starting this post for the third time (due to my inclination to use profane words) after an 8 hour session of a tabletop game, but my question really applies to all game types, including roleplaying games.

I do not know if there is a well established phrase for insulting/patronising/agressive players, but the word that comes to me is "being a ****" and I would really like some insights on such people.

Now, I like stereotypes and am again and again positively surprized by how many good-natured, wise, patient and goodwilled people play tabletop games and roleplaying games, still, I wonder of my inability to tolerate pre-mentioned players. I had such an experience today in an 8-hour tabletop games where a patronising, cynical and sarcastic player to a large extend ruined my otherwise wery enjoyable game.
I do not know if I am getting ever more picky, but I am more and more declining gaming groups where I am unable to feel relaxed, respectfull and thoughtull people. I find it that, the way I see it, there are quite few such anything-but-nice players in all sorts of gaming groups, but they can really ruin my game experience. Since I work, I really cherish my free time, so I usually just say goodbye to a group I dislike playing with, even if it is only due to one person.
In such situations I also often wonder if an all-out conflict and maybe a fist-fight might solve anything. I guess not. I actually believe that people (including me) are as they are, but still, I am surprised how fast I can become completely hostile to someone who (in my eyes) lacks fundamental social skills.
I know this is a bit rambl-ish alltogether, but I believe people will get my point and perhaps share their experience regarding topics of problematic players (and dealing with them). I also need to emphasize, that in "geeky" world I do not get along with, say one in twenty people. If that is a lot or not, I really can't say, but I may add here a thought of a freind of mine and a long-term D&D player, when we kicked this guy out of our gaming group due to brutal metagaming and complete inability to ropleplay in despite of "great experience" in D&D. My friend at that time said "Hey, it's D&D", meaning it is - besides all the nice people - also a game with a certain percentage of social and psychological misfits. I find this definition a bit brutal, but also to an extent, true.

[The Glyphstone]

So, how do you deal with "****" non-gamers? We're not some sort of genetic sub-species, and we don't have a larger percentage of "psychological misfits" than other cliques.

**** will be ****, gamers or otherwise.

[Tinydwarfman]

So, how do you deal with "****" non-gamers? We're not some sort of genetic sub-species, and we don't have a larger percentage of "psychological misfits" than other cliques.

**** will be ****, gamers or otherwise.

I am confused, either you are using a different word than I think you are, or you are not using the plural form. (wow, now I'm nit-picking other people's bleeps)

If the player is doing one thing that you can easily point to, tell him to stop it with the rest of the group backing you up. Some people just can't admit they're wrong, which is especially bad with DMs, but it can help if you try no to be too insulting (even if they deserve it), and have everyone chip in too.

[PhoenixRivers]

My best suggestion?

Suck it up.

Many of us work. We all cherish our free time.

We all have people that we'd rather not deal with, and activities we'd like to do.

However, in order to find acceptable people for a social group, you either need to stumble across the perfect group, or form it yourself, by going out there, meeting the right people, and weeding out the ones you don't like.

If you're stumbling from one preformed social circle to the next, you're trying for the former, which is a highly passive and ineffective way to control your contact with things that you have difficulty abiding.

Bottom line, if you want to dictate who can and can't be in the gaming club? You gotta be the club president.

[Adamaro]

My best suggestion?

Suck it up.

Many of us work. We all cherish our free time.

We all have people that we'd rather not deal with, and activities we'd like to do.

However, in order to find acceptable people for a social group, you either need to stumble across the perfect group, or form it yourself, by going out there, meeting the right people, and weeding out the ones you don't like.

If you're stumbling from one preformed social circle to the next, you're trying for the former, which is a highly passive and ineffective way to control your contact with things that you have difficulty abiding.

Bottom line, if you want to dictate who can and can't be in the gaming club? You gotta be the club president.

Good point. Problem is, that the way I see it, non-passive form is breaking someone's yaw. As for finding a perfect group, I already have one and we get along really nice.

[PhoenixRivers]

Good point. Problem is, that the way I see it, non-passive form is breaking someone's yaw. As for finding a perfect group, I already have one and we get along really nice.

That's not the non-passiveness I refer to.

I refer to being proactive. Not every non-passive action needs to end with violence.

A great example of being proactive, is to arrange for your perfect group to game in a manner or location that doesn't expose you to the element you dislike. You are identifying a problem, and actively addressing it.

That is quite different from considering the person who rubs you the wrong way to be the problem, and attempting to be hostile to the person.

Attack problems, not people. There is a vast difference.

[Enguhl]

Attack problems, not people. There is a vast difference.

Great advice for this situation. I work security in a parking garage downtown next to all the bars, so I constantly have to deal with people that are not just hard to deal with, but looking for trouble.
The best thing to do is just keep them from doing anything, keep yourself calm, and just move on from the situation.

[Nero24200]

I also need to emphasize, that in "geeky" world I do not get along with, say one in twenty people.

It could just be them failing their diplomacy checks. Even with high mods, you still have at least a 1 in 20 chance of failure.[/attempt at bad humour].

More seriously, have you considered trying to find people you like playing with an arranging yourself to have them all meet? It might be easier than finding another group. Alternatively, if you have some geeky friends, try introducing them to the game. If you were friends beforehand they might be more likely to listen when you say "I'm sorry but your X isn't doing much for the game, can you tone it down please?".

[Dhavaer]

It could just be them failing their diplomacy checks. Even with high mods, you still have at least a 1 in 20 chance of failure.[/attempt at bad humour].

Skill checks don't auto-fail on natural ones.

[Nero24200]

Skill checks don't auto-fail on natural ones.

Eep, forgot that. My main group uses a "Nat 1 = Auto Fail" and "Nat 20 = Auto Pass" houserule on skill checks, hard to forget sometimes that it's not actually a rule from the PHB or SRD.

[DabblerWizard]

In a lot of ways, successful roleplaying is a social exercise. Group dynamics, social comfort, handling disagreements, showing patience, trying to play equally, and waiting your turn are aspects of gaming that come up time and again.

Some people suck at interacting with others properly, for extended periods of time. Some don't know how to handle disagreements. Some come to the table to "beat" the game, and the other players.

These kinds of things can make gaming really challenging. Unfortunately, since psychological wellness is hardly an openly discussed concern in gaming groups (I would guess), most social problems between players are either (1) swept under the rug, (2) begrudgingly accepted indefinitely, or (3) hostilely dealt with. People only sometimes (4) calmly and rationally confront and solve a serious social problem, especially if it concerns a person that is otherwise a friend.

[kjones]

I would suggest dealing with this problem by running the games yourself. Then, the only people there are the ones you invite - if they turn out to be jerks, don't invite 'em back.

[herrhauptmann]

I am starting this post for the third time (due to my inclination to use profane words) after an 8 hour session of a tabletop game, but my question really applies to all game types, including roleplaying games.

I do not know if there is a well established phrase for insulting/patronising/agressive players, but the word that comes to me is "being a ****" and I would really like some insights on such people.

A word you're looking for could be "jerk." It might not have all the bile you're feeling, but it won't get your thread locked.

Do what other people are saying, and FORM your own group. If someone asks to join and you don't like their playstyle, tell them 'no'. Or better, say 'yes' with conditions. The conditions being: "Change your playstyle" They might honestly not see it the way you do.
You've obviously got a temper, and some people are going to set you off by accident. It happens, don't flip out. If you can't control it, they'll either react to your temper in some way, or they'll do it solely to "anger the hothead so bad he doesn't come back."
Turns out, getting mad at someone's play style and threatening to hit them, is not going to make them do better. They're going to stand up to you and your bullying in some way. Even if it's passively by just continuing to play 'badly.' Guess what, if they anger you enough to make you start a fight, the law is now on THEIR side. If you're 29 (like your profile says), you should know that starting a fight is bad.
Doesn't matter if you're playing at your home or not, throwing the first punch is stupid.
Getting "completely hostile to someone who (in my eyes) lacks fundamental social skills" says" (in my eyes), that you also lack fundamental social skills.

If you're this vicious now, I'd hate to be sitting across the table from you in a game. Whether you were mad at me or not, you'd be killing my fun. ANd guess what, I'd probably end up trying to find my enjoyment in some way which, guess what, happens to also set you off.

Perhaps you'd be better served by halting all gaming until you get some anger management help. It takes two to have a fight. So one person is never the sole cause.

[Gerbah]

We had a total "****" gamer in one group. The worst. He actively cheated, ignored rules, made things up and took whatever feats/classes/etc. he found without regard to the DM or source. To top this off, his blatant goal was to kill someone in the party whenever he could and generally make things unpleasant and difficult. To add even more icing to this fierce cake, he played an extremely Stupid Evil character in a party of mostly Good aligned folks, we put up with for campaign reasons.

We played with him for a solid year, once a week, until the campaign was finished.

No, I am not suggesting "suck it up". We had told him at least once a session that he was the worst player and brought up all the issues with him, he didn't care and wanted to keep doing it. Fortunately our DM made it bearable, and many of us just really liked playing D&D. But I would say that the campaign would have been at least 2x better without him. In a way, his actions are part of why I've become such a rules-jerk in the campaign I'm running, though I try to lay off because I don't mean to.

[Roland St. Jude]

I am confused, either you are using a different word than I think you are, or you are not using the plural form. (wow, now I'm nit-picking other people's bleeps)

Sheriff of Moddingham: Yet another reason to use actual non-filtered, non-profane words: people can tell what the **** you're talking about.

[Temotei]

Sheriff of Moddingham: Yet another reason to use actual non-filtered, non-profane words: people can tell what the **** you're talking about.

He could have just said lynx!

Nobody knows...

[herrhauptmann]

He could have just said lynx!

Nobody knows...

And Moose. That's another word that's hard to decide if it's plural or not.
Just go and make up your own swearwords. Chair, table, desk in place of swears that deal with excrement. Hat, coat, scarf in place of swear words regarding religion. Door, window for excrement swears.

Now that we've found ways for you to not get censored, I hope you'll do something regarding the other advice we've given you.

[Temotei]

And Moose. That's another word that's hard to decide if it's plural or not.
Just go and make up your own swearwords. Chair, table, desk in place of swears that deal with excrement. Hat, coat, scarf in place of swear words regarding religion. Door, window for excrement swears.

Now that we've found ways for you to not get censored, I hope you'll do something regarding the other advice we've given you.

Except moose isn't censored like lynx/lynx.

EDIT: I guess it isn't censored at all anymore. Sad.

[IonDragon]

We have had 2 players in our groups that we have had to... er... "Do away with". In order to keep this from devolving into a ran post, stories are spoilered for those that don't care as they are more just stories than advice on how to deal with trouble players.

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One of them had simply invited himself over when he heard 3rd hand that we were playing so it was extremely uncomfortable to deal with. Not to get too personal, but he seemed to have some social problems, had to have the rules explained to him several times and would then ask the exact same question later in the session, AND didn't respect people's personal space. We did play with him for some time and attempted to make allowances. Several players in our group spoke with him, and explained the issues they were having, but when nothing changed he just had to go.

Spoiler

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The 2nd was our usual GM. He writes homebrew 3.x and variant d20 systems. When playing HIS system GitP user Superglucose played a charger build character. This was deemed OP and he was asked not to return. Tensions had been mounting previously over other optimization issues using his variant d20 system. Superglucose, 2 of the other players and myself left. This basically being the 'core' group, it really seems more like the GM was the one who left.

[Samm]

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The 2nd was our usual GM. He writes homebrew 3.x and variant d20 systems. When playing HIS system GitP user Superglucose played a charger build character. This was deemed OP and he was asked not to return. Tensions had been mounting previously over other optimization issues using his variant d20 system. Superglucose, 2 of the other players and myself left. This basically being the 'core' group, it really seems more like the GM was the one who left.

Win! Then start a new group, without him... Sorry guys, that's was too good an oppurtunity to pass.

[IonDragon]

This is exactly what we did.

[Gnaeus]

I also need to emphasize, that in "geeky" world I do not get along with, say one in twenty people. If that is a lot or not, I really can't say, but I may add here a thought of a freind of mine and a long-term D&D player, when we kicked this guy out of our gaming group due to brutal metagaming and complete inability to ropleplay in despite of "great experience" in D&D. My friend at that time said "Hey, it's D&D", meaning it is - besides all the nice people - also a game with a certain percentage of social and psychological misfits. I find this definition a bit brutal, but also to an extent, true.

http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html

The 5 geek social fallacies seem appropriate to this part of the thread.

[Adamaro]

The word I was using, describes male organ and is also a name of a character from "3rd rock from the sun".

Anyway, tnx for all the input. Anger management suggestion made me laugh, but eventually, I even gave it a thought. I myself think, gamers all in all are way too tolerant (as suggested in some of provided links), even the type of guys whos' girlfriend you may feel up and they would not do diddly squat. I am really surprised anyone feels that playing a game with 3rd rock from the sun main character is any fun and should be tolerated as some ppl obviously do.

[Choco]

Anyway, tnx for all the input. Anger management suggestion made me laugh, but eventually, I even gave it a thought. I myself think, gamers all in all are way too tolerant (as suggested in some of provided links), even the type of guys whos' girlfriend you may feel up and they would not do diddly squat. I am really surprised anyone feels that playing a game with 3rd rock from the sun main character is any fun and should be tolerated as some ppl obviously do.

Heh, believe me I feel the same way. The stuff people are voluntarily willing to put up with surprises me. If the game is not fun for you, then either leave or find a way to remove the problem. I have had to remove real life friends from games for being disruptive before. I see no reason to keep them there "just because they are friends". Usually they understand though once it ruined the friendship, but IMO if being removed from a game for being disruptive is enough to get the guy to call off a friendship, it was not a friendship worth having in the first place.

[valadil]

I also need to emphasize, that in "geeky" world I do not get along with, say one in twenty people.

If you get along with 19/20, you're doing much better than me. I find 2/3 of the geek population to be no better than savage beasts, incapable and unworthy of human contact. I tried to strangle one once, but his neck was lubricated with a month of sweat and Cheeto dust so I couldn't get a good grip.

Gaming is a social activity. You should socialize with your friends. If you're hanging out with a group of people who aren't your friends just to roll some dice you're doing it wrong. I say you should try out new groups and see how they fit. Keep the people you like and ditch the rest. Starting your own game will make this much easier since you have full control over who you invite.

Honestly, I don't even think this is a gamer thing. It applies to people of all groups. Some of them are cool. Some of them piss you off. If they piss you off too much, don't hang out with them. Try to hang on to the ones you like.

[Paulus]

First off, if someone is actively enraging you by merely playing a game incorrectly or 'not very well' the problem may be you. It is only a game after all. But more importantly, tolerance of something gives that which you tolerate time to change in your presence, second chances and what have you. Address these problem first, calmly and kindly, and if there is no hope for change after at LEAST three such 'polite confrontations' then either they or yourself need to move on depending on group behavior.

Honestly I'm surprised you have found other groups so easily, most of us can barely find one, and just being glad to play as we are, we tolerate a lot. Beyond that we work hard to also try and help to smooth out any wrinkles by communication, so everyone benefits!

Also, I prefer writing <Bleep!> because it makes me smile and sounds funny if you say it. But I also, after watching Fantastic Mr. Fox, enjoy saying "Cuss" as in: "The cuss is wrong with you!?" "Cuss that." "awwwww CUSS IT." and the like. As for speaking, usually when I scream as somebody it's the old school curses, and i mean that literally, I say "CURSES!" or "BLAST IT!" or "BLAZES, snarf!" I also enjoy a "By odin's beard!" or other in jokes.

[Adamaro]

Good points, Paulus. I guess I am lucky regarding groups. There is a geeky store, a gaming club and two D&D groups I know. Currently, I am familiarising myself with gaming club, as for the groups, one is "smooth like caddilac", other one a bit of a challenge due to al munchkinness in it :-D In that aspect, I guess I am lucky man :-D (or maybe just toss out the weeds and keep the good stuff ;) ) I'd really like to meet me some girl gamers. Still, that is another story ...

[Superglucose]

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One of them had simply invited himself over when he heard 3rd hand that we were playing so it was extremely uncomfortable to deal with. Not to get too personal, but he seemed to have some social problems, had to have the rules explained to him several times and would then ask the exact same question later in the session, AND didn't respect people's personal space. We did play with him for some time and attempted to make allowances. Several players in our group spoke with him, and explained the issues they were having, but when nothing changed he just had to go.

Wait wait, that's how he joined? GRAH!