Warhammer 40K Tactics VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashlight.

[One Step Two]

And it's what makes Typhus so awesome, since he has a Poisoned Force Weapon.

Doesn't Typhus also Auto-pass his Psychic Tests? I remember him being a right terror on the field.

[Winterwind]

And it's what makes Typhus so awesome, since he has a Poisoned Force Weapon.

A Poisoned Force Daemon Weapon, no less.

Doesn't Typhus also Auto-pass his Psychic Tests? I remember him being a right terror on the field.

He does for Chaos Wind and Nurgle's Rot; I don't remember if he does so for his Force Weapon also.

Other benefits include Feel No Pain, a Terminator suit with frag grenades, defensive grenades, improved Toughness...

[Cheesegear]

Doesn't Typhus also Auto-pass his Psychic Tests?

Only for his powers. He doesn't auto-pass for his Force Weapon.

[Ricky S]

[QUOTE=Winterwind;8371937]Sorry for replying to posts so far back, but I was gone since Friday, and these picked my interest.

Hmmm... at least half, if not more, of the people I play with at my Games Workshop are in the 13-15 years range, and so far I've made pretty much only good experiences with them - they all were polite, mature, knew the rules and had (for the most part) painted armies, some of them quite nicely even.

Well you're lucky because the kids Im talking about are about 10 years old. They are so annoying. Their mums come in to pick them up and they are so spoilt. Their parents buy them what ever they want then they go and ruin the models it kills me. They think they know everything and act as if you dont know the rules. Plus they are everywhere my local GW has turned into a bloody childcare centre with parents dropping off their kids to have painting sessions or birthday parties.

The 13 - 15 year olds I can handle and have enjoyed a few games with because at least they are in high school and have more intelligience and social understanding and I dont mind helping them with any rules they might not know.

Oh and cheese it was a GW run tournament. They did give the players scores for their armies painting so it wasnt as if they werent penalised for not having a basecoated army but still...

[Winterwind]

Well you're lucky because the kids Im talking about are about 10 years old. They are so annoying. Their mums come in to pick them up and they are so spoilt. Their parents buy them what ever they want then they go and ruin the models it kills me. They think they know everything and act as if you dont know the rules. Plus they are everywhere my local GW has turned into a bloody childcare centre with parents dropping off their kids to have painting sessions or birthday parties.

Oh, I see. My condolences.
Hmm... I haven't seen many kids that young at our shop here, if at all. Odd.

[Cheesegear]

Well you're lucky because the kids Im talking about are about 10 years old. They are so annoying. Their mums come in to pick them up and they are so spoilt. Their parents buy them what ever they want then they go and ruin the models it kills me. They think they know everything and act as if you dont know the rules. Plus they are everywhere my local GW has turned into a bloody childcare centre with parents dropping off their kids to have painting sessions or birthday parties.

Hmm...There are ten year-olds who come into my local GW. They're not actually too bad. Usually because being a little turd gets them a whole lot of 'STFU noob' talk thrown at them. They tend to calm down after you wipe the floor with them.
Like I said; The only way to deal with turds is to teach them they're not nearly as good as they think they are.

But, yeah, there are good parents and bad parents (fact of life, really). There's no two ways about it. However, the GW staffers in my local store are pretty adamant about not being a glorified childcare service. Often telling parents "Oh, we're not doing painting sessions today." when they think a kid is a turd. Despite the fact they have painting tutorials whenever you ask for one. Parents don't know any better.

And, yes, there have been one or two cases where the staff has told a parent that they can't leave their child behind (a very polite way of saying 'You know your son is a little s*, right?'). Only one time ever, have I seen someone been removed from the store - and that kid was 16/17.

Oh and Cheese it was a GW run tournament. They did give the players scores for their armies painting so it wasnt as if they werent penalised for not having a basecoated army but still...

But still you're highly elitist? Right. Like I said, having fully painted armies isn't actually the norm (but I'm surprised about the amount of people not knowing the rules). But, if you look in the back of a White Dwarf, there are a couple of events that do specify 'Fully Painted Armies only'. For some, painting is hard. If they had to paint their whole army, they might never even get to play a game in a long, long time.

Also, in the case of cheating, it's actually pretty common in tournaments, especially when one player is clearly the more knowledgeable of the pair. Yeah, you have to cause a scene when you spot cheaters. You can't just let them do it.

I know one player who carries his dice in pockets, when he needs to roll high, he pulls dice from one pocket. When he needs to roll low, he uses dice from his other pocket. Nobody plays him.

And it's actually a requirement that every player brings a Rulebook and Codex of their own to every tournament. And Codecies need to be shown upon request; "I don't believe that Autarchs get Hit & Run, show me", "Chaos Lords are totally not Weapon Skill 6, show me."

I'm seriously surprised that a GW-run tournament was so...Shoddy. Sorry you went to a tournament and you felt that way.

I like going to tournaments. Because I actually know most of the rules and tend to be able to catch cheaters. Also, I really don't care that armies aren't painted. That's not what tournaments are for.
Players who don't paint get shot on Painting Score. They don't need my negative attitude along with it.
And those who do paint get extra points, and win awards for doing so if they're that good.

My army isn't all painted. Am I not allowed to play then?

[Closet_Skeleton]

Army idea:

Spoiler

Show

Chaos Lord - Mark of Nurgle, Bike, Melta Bombs, Personnal Icon (useless here I know), daemon weapon

Chaos Sorcerer - Nurgle's Rot (sub par I'm guessing?), Mark of Nurgle, Bike

Troops

7 Plague Marines - 2 flamers, champion with power fist, rhino with daemonic possession

7 Plague Marines - 2 meltaguns, champion with power sword, rhino with daemonic possession

Fast Attack

10 Bikers - Icon of Nurgle, 2 meltaguns, champion with power fist

7 Bikers - Icon of Nurgle, 2 flamers, champion with power fist

7 Bikers - Icon of Nurgle, 2 flamers, champion with power fist

[Cheesegear]

Army idea:

1500? 1750?
Since you don't have points costs attached to anything, it's hard to tell at a glance.

Chaos Lord - Mark of Nurgle, Bike, Melta Bombs, Personnal Icon (useless here I know), daemon weapon

If it's useless, why are you taking the Personal Icon?
(If it's a Thematic choice, you should probably say so)

Also, the obligatory 'Daemon Prince is better'. Unless you're fighting Wraithlords or C'Tan. But, you've got lots of Melta weapons for that.

Chaos Sorcerer - Nurgle's Rot (sub par I'm guessing?), Mark of Nurgle, Bike

Nurgle's Rot is more suited to a Daemon Prince (and Typhus). Since as a Sorcerer of Nurgle, you only get to use one power per turn, and, if you're that close, you should be Force Weapon'ing. Wind of Chaos is much, much better (a Daemon Prince doesn't need it). Or Warptime if your Force Weapon isn't required at the time.
Wind of Chaos is also kind of Nurgle-y (Typhus has it, why can't you?) if you need that angle.

The rest of your list is fine. Nurgle is quite good. I'd probably think about swapping a unit or two of Bikes for Nurgle Terminators and/or more Troops (Plague Marines).

[Winterwind]

Army idea:
[...]

I've toyed with the idea of Nurgle Bikers myself... the problem is that these units get expensive, fast. For instance, your list includes a 440 points unit and two 331 points units; if any one of these gets tangled up in a tarpit unit, you are in trouble, and the opponent is likely to have far more independently operating units on the board, allowing them to outmaneuver you quite easily.
Of course, T6 is really, really impressive, but I'm not sure how well it would work. Maybe it might be better to drop the big biker squad and replace it with more Plague Marines (with Rhinos)?

[Closet_Skeleton]

1500? 1750?
Since you don't have points costs attached to anything, it's hard to tell at a glance.

2000. It's the norm where I live.

Also, the obligatory 'Daemon Prince is better'.

If they bring out a new codex where you can get a daemon prince on a bike I'd take him, but as it is the prince don't fit the theme and I can't see much synergy for him.

A winged daemon prince could keep up with the bikers. That might work. I could model him as riding a winged beast of nurgle or an old space marine jetbike and convert him from Sammael.

Nurgle's Rot is more suited to a Daemon Prince (and Typhus). Since as a Sorcerer of Nurgle, you only get to use one power per turn, and, if you're that close, you should be Force Weapon'ing. Wind of Chaos is much, much better (a Daemon Prince doesn't need it). Or Warptime if your Force Weapon isn't required at the time.
Wind of Chaos is also kind of Nurgle-y (Typhus has it, why can't you?) if you need that angle.

Okay, I'll go with wind of chaos then. Or swap the sorcerer out for more bikers. I had to take 5 out to fit him in and I don't think he's quite worth it.

The rest of your list is fine. Nurgle is quite good. I'd probably think about swapping a unit or two of Bikes for Nurgle Terminators or more Troops (Plague Marines).

Of course, T6 is really, really impressive, but I'm not sure how well it would work. Maybe it might be better to drop the big biker squad and replace it with more Plague Marines (with Rhinos)?

But that would kind of go against the point of the biker army and just give me a normal nurgle army.

Swapping a 10 biker squad for another 7 plague marines in rhino squad would give me 200 points left over.

Maybe:

Spoiler

Show

HQ

Daemon Prince - Mark of Nurgle, Wings, Nurgle's Rot

Troops

7 Plague Marines - 2 flamers, champion with power fist, rhino with daemonic possession

7 Plague Marines - 2 meltaguns, champion with power sword, rhino with daemonic possession

Fast Attack

10 Bikers - Icon of Nurgle, 2 meltaguns, champion with power fist

10 Bikers - Icon of Nurgle, 2 flamers, champion with power fist

10 Bikers - Icon of Nurgle, 2 flamers, champion with power fist

or

Spoiler

Show

HQ

Daemon Prince - Mark of Nurgle, Wings, Nurgle's Rot

Troops

7 Plague Marines - 2 flamers, champion with power fist, rhino with daemonic possession

7 Plague Marines - 2 meltaguns, champion with power fist, rhino with daemonic possession

7 Plague Marines - 2 meltaguns, champion with power fist, rhino with daemonic possession

Fast Attack

7 Bikers - Icon of Nurgle, 2 meltaguns, champion with power fist

7 Bikers - Icon of Nurgle, 2 meltaguns, champion with power fist

7 Bikers - Icon of Nurgle, 2 flamers, champion with power fist

That one gives me more troops and fits better with the magic nurgle number

[Cheesegear]

2000 Points

But that would kind of go against the point of the biker army and just give me a normal nurgle army.

But you're playing Chaos Marines. You can't have a Biker army. Or, at least you can't have an effective one. And presumably, the aim of showing people lists is so you can get ideas on where you made sub-optimal choices. And, in CSMs, taking Bikes is usually 'wrong'.
...If you had actually said right at the beginning "Hey, I'm making a Nurgle Bike list." it might've gone differently.

You're playing 2000 point games with only 2 Troop units. I don't see it going any way except failure.

[The last list] gives me more troops and fits better with the magic nurgle number

I'd still drop one more unit of Bikes for another Troop unit.

Alternatively, you can save a lot of points by taking regular Marines with Banner of Nurgle.

[Winterwind]

Alternatively, you can save a lot of points by taking regular Marines with Banner of Nurgle.

Not all that many, actually. Icons of Nurgle are so expensive that in a squad with 10 models you only save 30 points compared to 10 Plague Marines. For which you give up Fearless, Feel No Pain and Plague Grenades.

Plus, you are forced to take 10 models if you want two special weapons, which firstly doesn't fit with the magic Nurgle number theme he wants to follow through with, and secondly would actually make his units more expensive, and not less. (7 Plague Marines: 161 points. 10 CSM with Nurgle Icon: 200 points)

[Cheesegear]

Plus, you are forced to take 10 models if you want two special weapons, which firstly doesn't fit with the magic Nurgle number theme he wants to follow through with, and secondly would actually make his units more expensive, and not less. (7 Plague Marines: 161 points. 10 CSM with Nurgle Icon: 200 points)

Exactly, you don't take 10. You don't get dual-weapons. You save even more points. No, it's not entirely worth it. But, you do save points to get more things like Bikes - if you want them (which apparently we do).

Not that I would ever do such a thing. Because - thematics aside - Nurgle Bikes are too expensive to begin with, and not even that good. Because Nurgle Bikes don't have 'real' T6, and they don't get FNP. For their points cost, you're getting gypped.

So, like I said; There's no such as a good CSM Bike army. As I mentioned last thread when I was saying how awesome Bikes are. That Bikes are awesome - except Chaos Bikes.

[Winterwind]

Exactly, you don't take 10. You don't get dual-weapons. You save even more points. No, it's not entirely worth it. But, you do save points to get more things like Bikes - if you want them (which apparently we do).

But if you do that, the cost of the Icon relative to the cost of the squad becomes even higher. If you take 7 Chaos Space Marines with an Icon of Nurgle, you would have to pay just six points to replace all that with 7 Plague Marines (who do not have to take dual special weapons either, if saving points really takes precedence over sensible equipment). Six points. Per unit, not per model.

You only save points by taking CSM rather than cult troops if you either want much bigger squads or take one of the cheaper icons.

[Lycan 01]

Only one time ever, have I seen someone been removed from the store - and that kid was 16/17.

Can we have the story please?



How many Imperial Guard Platoons can Daemonhunters take? And how many Space Marine units can they take at the same time?


So I had an interesting idea on how to build some Inquisitorial stormtroopers. But I'm not sure if it would go here, the fluff thread, or the model thread...

Basically, I have in my possession a box of Tau Fire Warriors. They were a gift for my friend, who wants me to paint them since he didn't/doesn't/will not have the time. In fact, he's kinda lost interest in trying to play 40K... So I wondered what use these little servants of the Greater Good could be put to. And then I had an idea - what if I used them to represent Inquisitorial Stormtroopers who have been granted access to forbidden Xeno tech?

So, as a theoretic Daemonhunter starting list, how would this look?

HQ: Inquisitor + Retinue + Chimera
Troops 1: 5 Stormtroopers
Troops 2: 5 Stormtroopers + Chimera
Elites 1: Grey Knights Terminators x 5
Allies 1: Inducted Infantry Platoon
Allies 2: Inducted Tactical Squad (if usable)

[Arcanoi]

You cannot take Inducted Guard AND Inducted Space Marines, only one or the other.

Inducted Guard is just flat out better than Stormtroopers at most things, and this is always true if you take a Company Command as an Allied HQ. There is no reason to take Stormtroopers if you're taking Guard.

[Lycan 01]

Well, I don't have any Grey Knights to take as Troops choices, so there's that...

[Closet_Skeleton]

You can't have inducted space marines and grey knights either.

[Shas aia Toriia]

You guys and your complaints about young children. I'll have you know I started when I was 6, and I don't think any non-employee in the store was older than 16.

[Wraith]

There's a distinct and profound difference between children and obnoxious children.

I myself went though a 5 year lull in my gaming career where I never once visited a GW Store because it was inhabited by only two kinds of people: loud and know-it-all 13 year olds telling me why my army didn't work (usually regardless of whatever was happening on the table) and 30-something Tournament veterans whose only aim was to run roughshod over whoever they could sucker into a game, using whatever behaviour that they could get away with since they didn't have to worry about a Sportsmanship or Composition score in a casual game.

Like the guy who, when firing a guess-range weapon, who would use his hand-spans to judge the distance required. I called him out on this and he claimed that 'measuring' required something with standardised marks on it, and he was only estimating (as though he expected me to believe that he didn't know exactly how big his hands were).

These sort of people completely killed my desire to play for a long, long time, and yet when I finally returned to the Stores I am all too happy to acknowledge that part of my enjoyment comes from meeting new people who aren't the old ones.

[Ogremindes]

Huh. Can anyone recommend a good piece for a bionic right arm for a space marine? Nothing in the Iron Hands box really suits what I have in mind.

[grinner666]

Huh. Can anyone recommend a good piece for a bionic right arm for a space marine? Nothing in the Iron Hands box really suits what I have in mind.

Any of the arms from the Necromunda Pit Slaves gang might work, but I'm unsure of how many of them come in separate bitz, or whether they're all one-piece models ... how good are you with a hacksaw?

[Lycan 01]

The chainsaw add-on for the Imperial Guard sentinel. The way its angled allows it to be the perfect chain-arm. I'm still debating who or what I want to put it on...

[Ogremindes]

Now that I think of it, I don't have a reason not to have a bionic left arm, which is a lot easier to find. The Iron Warriors conversion kit's left arm from the lascannon should work for what I have in mind. (I'm dreaming up a Wolf Lord with lots of bionics who uses the Iron Wolf symbol for his Great Company).

[Partof1]

In regards to my Plasma post, I play a bit of everything. Tau, Necrons, Nids, one Guy runs BA, SM, IG, or Eldar, there's another newer Eldar player, and another CSM guy. There will be an ork player, but he's new and I don't know how long he'll be painting for.

[crazedloon]

Basically, I have in my possession a box of Tau Fire Warriors. They were a gift for my friend, who wants me to paint them since he didn't/doesn't/will not have the time. In fact, he's kinda lost interest in trying to play 40K... So I wondered what use these little servants of the Greater Good could be put to. And then I had an idea - what if I used them to represent Inquisitorial Stormtroopers who have been granted access to forbidden Xeno tech?

only problem is that the tau have hoof feat and 4 fingers.

feat are easy to deal with if you chop them off and and model swamp for them to be walking through (thus their feet have sunk into the mud) or have some high grass to hide their feet in

the hands are a little harder but some well placed green stuff can help that.

also if you have extra human heads I would suggest them to distinguish your "fire warrior" from actual fire warriors

[Lycan 01]

Actually, I was either going to replace the legs with Guardsmen legs from Ebay or TheWarStore, or I was just going to say that the boots are redesigned so that human feet can fit into them...

Fingers... Hm. Forget they had one less digit. I was going to alternate human hands and Guardsmen arms on a few of the figures, theoretically. Or just say they're able to fit their pinky and ring finger into the same finger on the gauntlet. Or greenstuff on a spare finger. Whatever works...


Yeah, I was planning on putting several spare Guard heads on there, to show they're human. I was also going to switch a few lasguns for pulse rifles, and either give the Sarge a pistol and sword or a boltgun. Oh, and cover them in purity seals. Can't forget the purity seals...

[Cheesegear]

Can we have the story please?

Two players were playing a game. A rather heated discussion took place that got pretty loud and was disrupting the whole store. I believe it was something to do with cover saves. The Blackshirt told everyone to STFU. There's a system in place in the rulebook to deal with situations like that; Roll a G*-damn dice.

The dice came up in one of the players' favour (presumably the one trying to get the cover save - or whatever). One player started mouthing off and abused the other player, abused the dice and being a s*head. The Blackshirt gave him a Stern Warning. And said if he was going to be like that, he shouldn't play the game (as I mentioned to Winterwind about one of his friends).

The game was over, the 'nice' kid won, the s*head lost. As is normal for Turdburgers who lose, he didn't take it very well. About five minutes later, one of his friends came in. Captain Arseknuckle then explained the story and how he would've won '...if X and Y and Z and if the Blackshirt hadn't come over and whinged...'

Blackshirt came over and just said "Right, get out. You're no longer welcome here on any of the days I'm working..."

How many Imperial Guard Platoons can Daemonhunters take? And how many Space Marine units can they take at the same time?

Up to 4. Providing you've already got 2 Troops. So, up to 6 total Troops choices as normal.
Space Marines at the same time? None.

Restrictions;
1. You can take Inducted Guard or Inducted Space Marines. And
2. If your force includes any Grey Knights, you can't take Inducted Space Marines.

...However, you can skirt 2, by playing Codex Marines and taking Allied Daemonhunters. It almost amounts to the same thing. It's what I do.

However, you can't take 'Allies of Allies'; Playing Codex Marines, and then taking Inducted Guard via Daemonhunters.

You might want to think about playing Witch Hunters (for a better Inquisitor), taking Storm Troopers and Inducted Guard as per normal, then allying with Daemonhunters for Terminators. Not that you have to. You just get a better Inquisitor.

You also can ally with Daemon and Witch Hunters at the same time;

HQ
Librarian (Deathwatch)
Inquisitor; preferably Ordo Hereticus. There are more psykers than there are daemons. Some daemons are also psykers.

ELITES
x2 Sternguard (Deathwatch)
GK Terminators

TROOPS
x2 Scouts
x2 Grey Knight Squads
x2 Sisters of Battle Squads

FAST ATTACK
Assault Marines
Grey Knight Teleport Attack Squad
Dominions

HEAVY SUPPORT
Land Raider X
Land Raider X
Land Raider X

The Scouts, Assault Marines and Land Raiders can be painted up as Raven Guard. So, they're still black.

[Winterwind]

In regards to my Plasma post, I play a bit of everything. Tau, Necrons, Nids, one Guy runs BA, SM, IG, or Eldar, there's another newer Eldar player, and another CSM guy. There will be an ork player, but he's new and I don't know how long he'll be painting for.

The thing about mixing weapons is that it doesn't really depend on what army you will be facing, but what unit you will be shooting at.

See, let me illustrate this via example. Let's say you have two squads, both equipped with, say, a Meltagun and a Flamer. And now one of these squads shoots at a unit of light infantry, and the other squad shoots at a vehicle. Then the Melta in the former unit is doing practically nothing, and the Flamer in the latter unit is doing nothing at all. Now, let's say the former squad had both of the Flamers, and the latter squad had both of the Meltas. Then, all special weapons are working at full efficiency; your army is working at full efficiency.

This is why it's practically always better to specialize; if you don't, you settle for your army never operating at full efficiency.

[Ricky S]

.
But still you're highly elitist? Right. Like I said, having fully painted armies isn't actually the norm (but I'm surprised about the amount of people not knowing the rules). But, if you look in the back of a White Dwarf, there are a couple of events that do specify 'Fully Painted Armies only'. For some, painting is hard. If they had to paint their whole army, they might never even get to play a game in a long, long time.

Also, in the case of cheating, it's actually pretty common in tournaments, especially when one player is clearly the more knowledgeable of the pair. Yeah, you have to cause a scene when you spot cheaters. You can't just let them do it.

I know one player who carries his dice in pockets, when he needs to roll high, he pulls dice from one pocket. When he needs to roll low, he uses dice from his other pocket. Nobody plays him.

And it's actually a requirement that every player brings a Rulebook and Codex of their own to every tournament. And Codecies need to be shown upon request; "I don't believe that Autarchs get Hit & Run, show me", "Chaos Lords are totally not Weapon Skill 6, show me."

I'm seriously surprised that a GW-run tournament was so...Shoddy. Sorry you went to a tournament and you felt that way.

I like going to tournaments. Because I actually know most of the rules and tend to be able to catch cheaters. Also, I really don't care that armies aren't painted. That's not what tournaments are for.
Players who don't paint get shot on Painting Score. They don't need my negative attitude along with it.
And those who do paint get extra points, and win awards for doing so if they're that good.

My army isn't all painted. Am I not allowed to play then?

Elitist, yes thats the word I was looking for. Yea I am very elitist and generally not forgiving of people. I keep all my attitude and opinions to myself so I'll never say "Oh your army looks ****!" I may be an elitist but I am still polite

I heard a GW staff member put it this way which I thought was apt, "I don't mind if people bring in unpainted armies to play with, so long as each time I see them a little more of their army is painted." I agree very much with that statement. There are people however who dont paint their army week after week and dont even attempt it. Its unsightly and frankly puts me off playing them. I realise its impossible for some players to paint their army quickly, ork/nid/guard players for example but some progress is needed.

I dont always have a lot of time to spend on my army. I go to uni, have friends and all that stuff but I manage to put aside a little time each week. 2 hrs is not unreasonable to find in a week and though I am not a fast painter or builder 2 hrs will allow me to paint the base colours on a unit, or do the eyes on a few units or file away the excess plastic after clipping and glue some models together. The point is my army is slowly being completed.

Actually I think that was the biggest thing at the tournament, was the lack of Rule books and codex's. I mean its possible that every single player had them on the floor in their bag but I dont think so. But enough of tournament discussion, I shall not be so hard on tournaments or players, lest I not enjoy 40k anymore.

I wish they still had deathwatch kill teams... They were so cool. But I also had that same idea of using sternguard as deathwatch. It saves having to buy the expensive sternguard mini's and means I can paint plastic tactical marines instead of the metal sternguard. I hate painting metal, I find plastic so much more appealing. I think I might even order some of the Deathwatch shoulder pads. Or I could just freehand the shoulder pads? decisions, decisions...