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    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    If you're like me, then in your D&D career you've encountered many players who are attracted to the flavor and style of the 3.5 monk class, and yet the monk's performance is so poor that the experience is often unsatisfying. Wouldn't it be great if you could rework the monk to have its same flavor and style, but perform well enough to keep up with the rest of the party? Sure, but that would take a huge amount of effort, wouldn't it? There must be someone, somewhere, who did all that work, who developed and playtested a better monk that's worthy of the name?

    Look no further. The revised monk awaits.


    Before we begin, a word for the monk's detractors:
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    Many things are probably entering your mind now. Let me attempt to answer your F.A.Q.s.
    1. You know about the Monk Wars on this forum, right? Yup, sure do. And yet I love my players, and they want this. A good DM plays to his audience. Plus, I've come to love this monk class like one loves a crippled child. I want to see him run and play with all the other classes some day!
    2. Why don't you just play an unarmed swordsage? Some of my players don't have ToB and are intimidated by the idea of learning a new system. Moreover, many of them just want Monk Classic.
    3. Haven't you looked at the other homebrew monks in this forum? Sure have. I've stolen a number of ideas from them, but none are exactly what I need. In particular, classes that depart from the feel and flavor of the PHB monk, or classes that add new power systems like ki points or martial maneuvers, aren't appropriate to the player requests I'm trying to fill.


    Design goals for the revised monk:
    1. The apple shouldn't fall far from the tree. I want the class to feel like the PHB monk and play like the PHB monk, but to contribute more successfully to a wider variety of situations, and not inspire 20-page bile-filled forum arguments.
    2. Can I haz party role now? The revised monk is intended to function as a melee-oriented dps skirmisher and skillmonkey, much like a rogue, ranger or scout (but without the wilderness focus of the latter two classes). It should also be able to step into other roles such as party face or infiltrator.
    3. The target power/versatility level is a strong Tier 4.
    4. MAD should be much reduced, with Wis primary, Dex secondary, and Con tertiary. Str, Int and Cha are not likely to be important stats for the revised monk.
      The revised monk should be less gear-dependent than a typical character, as befits an ascetic scholar.




    So without further ado, the revised monk!

    {table=head]Level|Base Attack|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|Flurry (std)|Flurry (full)|Unarmed|AC|Speed
    1st|+0|+2|+2|+2|Bonus feat, flurry of blows, empty mind, research, unarmed strike, versatile attack|-2/-2|-2/-2|1d6|+0|+0 ft.
    2nd|+1|+3|+3|+3|Bonus feat, evasion|-1/-1|-1/-1|1d6|+0|+0 ft.
    3rd|+2|+3|+3|+3|Empty strike, still mind, dance with the elements|+0/+0|+0/+0|1d6|+0|+10 ft.
    4th|+3|+4|+4|+4|Ki strike +1, slow fall 20 ft.|+1/+1|+1/+1|1d8|+1|+10 ft.
    5th|+3|+4|+4|+4|Wholeness of body, ki shot|+2/+2|+2/+2|1d8|+1|+10 ft.
    6th|+4|+5|+5|+5|Bonus feat, slow fall 30 ft.|+3/+3|+3/+3|1d8|+1|+20 ft.
    7th|+5|+5|+5|+5|Diamond body, tongue of the sun and moon|+4/+4|+4/+4|1d8|+1|+20 ft.
    8th|+6/+1|+6|+6|+6|Abundant step, ki strike +2, slow fall 40 ft.|+5/+5|+5/+5/+0|2d6|+2|+20 ft.
    9th|+6/+1|+6|+6|+6|Improved evasion|+6/+6|+6/+6/+1|2d6|+2|+30 ft.
    10th|+7/+2|+7|+7|+7|Bonus feat, slow fall 50 ft.|+7/+7|+7/+7/+2|2d6|+2|+30 ft.
    11th|+8/+3|+7|+7|+7|Diamond soul|+8/+8/+8|+8/+8/+8/+3|2d6|+2|+30 ft.
    12th|+9/+4|+8|+8|+8|Ki strike +3, quivering palm, slow fall 60 ft.|+9/+9/+9|+9/+9/+9/+4|3d6|+3|+40 ft.
    13th|+9/+4|+8|+8|+8|Empty step|+9/+9/+9|+9/+9/+9/+4|3d6|+3|+40 ft.
    14th|+10/+5|+9|+9|+9|Bonus feat, slow fall 70 ft.|+10/+10/+10|+10/+10/+10/+5|3d6|+3|+40 ft.
    15th|+11/+6/+1|+9|+9|+9|Empty body|+11/+11/+11|+11/+11/+11/+6/+1|3d6|+3|+50 ft.
    16th|+12/+7/+2|+10|+10|+10|Ki strike +4, moment of perfection, slow fall 80 ft.|+12/+12/+12|+12/+12/+12/+7/+2|4d6|+4|+50 ft.
    17th|+12/+7/+2|+10|+10|+10|Timeless body|+12/+12/+12|+12/+12/+12/+7/+2|4d6|+4|+50 ft.
    18th|+13/+8/+3|+11|+11|+11|Bonus feat, slow fall 90 ft.|+13/+13/+13|+13/+13/+13/+8/+3|4d6|+4|+60 ft.
    19th|+14/+9/+4|+11|+11|+11|Empty soul|+14/+14/+14|+14/+14/+14/+9/+4|4d6|+4|+60 ft.
    20th|+15/+10/+5|+12|+12|+12|Ki strike +5, perfect self, slow fall any distance|+15/+15/+15|+15/+15/+15/+10/+5|6d6|+5|+60 ft.[/table]

    Hit Die: d8
    The monk's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Autohypnosis (Wis), Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).
    Skill Points at 1st level: (8 + Int modifier) x 4.
    Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 8 + Int modifier.

    Design Notes:
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    Additional class skills and more skill points per level solidly cement the monk's role as a skill monkey. Compare to the rogue or scout.
    CLASS FEATURES
    All of the following are class features of the monk.

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Monks are proficient with club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, and sling. Monks are not proficient with any armor or shields. When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses her AC bonus, as well as her fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.

    Empty Mind (Ex): When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC.

    These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load.

    Design Notes:
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    Wis to AC has been broken out from the scaling class AC bonus so that I can offer the option of trading them away separately for alternate class features.
    AC Bonus (Ex): At 4th level, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC when unarmored and unencumbered. This bonus increases by 1 for every four monk levels thereafter (+2 at 8th, +3 at 12th, +4 at 16th, and +5 at 20th level).

    These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load.

    Design Notes:
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    An improved AC progression now tracks with the bonuses an armor-wearing character can obtain from the magic vestment spell. Between this and the Empty Mind feature, the monk's AC should be competitive with that of the rogue or ranger.

    Flurry of Blows (Ex): When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy when performing an attack or a full attack action, or as part of a charge. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. The resulting modified base attack bonuses are shown in the Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus columns on Table: The Monk. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the monk might make before her next action. When a monk reaches 5th level, the penalty lessens to -1, and at 9th level it disappears.

    When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons, although she may use them interchangeably as desired. When flurrying with a weapon, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus × 1˝ or ×˝) to her damage rolls, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands.

    A monk with the Combat Reflexes feat can declare a flurry of blows when taking an attack of opportunity.

    A monk with Flyby Attack, Ride-By Attack, Shot on the run, Spring attack, or Swim-By Attack can combine flurry of blows with these feats to flurry on the move. If the monk obtains additional attacks via Bounding Assault or rapid Blitz, she gains the extra flurry attacks only once.

    Greater Flurry: When a monk reaches 11th level, her flurry of blows ability improves. In addition to the standard single extra attack she gets from flurry of blows, she gets a second extra attack at her full base attack bonus.

    Design Notes:
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    Stop the presses! Flurry of blows is usable on the move, and is compatible with builds that rely on charges or opportunity attacks.

    Research: Monks are able scholars. You gain Research as a bonus feat, ignoring prerequisites.

    Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. A monk can make off-hand attacks with unarmed strikes, and suffers no special penalty or hindrance for doing so. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes, or declare an unarmed strike as an off-hand weapon when fighting with two weapons (and would not take the additional -6 penalty for an off-hand attack when doing so).

    A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. This is also true for feats and class abilities that affect manufactured and natural weapons. Thus, a monk's unarmed strike qualifies for use with feats like Improved Natural Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting, and Weapon Focus.

    A monk also deals more damage with her unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown on Table: The Monk. The unarmed damage on Table: The Monk is for Medium monks. A smaller or larger monk deals increases or decreases this damage as appropriate to her Size Category.

    Design Notes:
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    Damage is increased somewhat, and now regularized to progress as if the monk was receiving size increases. This makes it easy to figure the correct damage for a monk under the effect of size-alteration magic.

    Bonus Feat: At 1st level, a monk may select either Improved Grapple, Point Blank Shot, or Stunning Fist as a bonus feat. At 2nd level, she may select either Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, or Rapid Shot as a bonus feat. At 6th level, she may select either Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, or Precise Shot as a bonus feat. At 10th level, a she may select either Improved Ki Defense, Improved Ki Strike, or Manyshot as a bonus feat. At 14th level, she may select either Earth's Embrace, Freezing the Lifeblood or Far Shot as a bonus feat. At 18th level, she may select either Crushing Strike, Driving Assault, or Slashing Flurry (the benefit applies only when she attacks with special monk weapons of the appropriate damage type, or with with unarmed strikes even if they are not of the appropriate damage type). A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them. If she selects a bonus feat which she has already obtained using a previously-acquired feat slot, she may immediately retrain the earlier feat slot for free.

    Design Notes:
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    New bonus feat options provide support for a monk-archer (especially if you use the new Esoteric Weapons Training feat below to gain the longbow as a special monk weapon).

    Versatile Attack (Ex): A monk learns advanced martial arts that make her a more flexible attacker. While she is unarmored, she adds the better of her Strength or Dexterity bonuses to attack and damage with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons, and to all contested combat maneuvers (such as bull rush, disarm, grapple, overrun, sunder, or trip checks). A monk with Versatile Attack qualifies for prerequisites as if she had the Weapon Finesse feat.

    Design Notes:
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    Versatile Attack reduces Multiple Attribute Dependency by allowing the monk to focus either on Strength or Dexterity (most probably Dexterity, although some builds will appreciate the ability to get Strength to hit with ranged weapons).

    Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level or higher if a monk makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if a monk is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of evasion.

    Dance with the Elements (Ex): Where other adventurers practice rigorously with weapons or craft powerful magic items, the monk understands that devices are mere distractions. A wise master looks beyond rigid structures and perceives the dance of earth, air, fire, and water in the world. Then, she learns to dance with them. At 3rd level, a monk gains a bonus to her speed (which grants bonus to her Jump checks as normal; see the Jump skill for details), as shown on Table: The Monk. She also gains the same bonus as a competence bonus to her Balance, Jump, and Tumble checks. For example, a 3rd level monk gains +10 ft move speed and a +10 competence bonus to Balance, Jump, and Tumble, while an 18th level monk has a +60 ft move speed and a +60 competence bonus to Balance, Jump, and Tumble. A monk in armor or carrying a medium or heavy load loses these benefits.

    Design Notes:
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    Replacing fast movement, this feature allows the monk to benefit from haste and other effects that provide enhancement bonuses to speed, and provides massive bonuses to acrobatic skills. This enables a mid-level monk to meet the DCs for epic uses of Balance, Jump, and Tumble, and pull off dramatic wuxia-style maneuvers such as running across water or up the side of a wall, climbing a tree by leaping up from branch to branch, or jumping up onto rooftops or over alleyways. Tactically, this helps overcome the monk's limited ranged attack options, as it becomes easier to get within striking distance of a difficult-to-reach opponent.

    Empty Strike (Ex): At 3rd level, a monk learns to empty her mind of all desire and expectation and strike free from worldly worries. While she is unarmored, she adds her Wisdom bonus to attack and damage with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons, and to all contested combat maneuvers (such as bull rush, disarm, grapple, overrun, sunder, or trip checks).

    Design Notes:
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    Empty Strike allows the monk to hit and execute combat maneuvers like grapple and trip as effectively as a character with a full base attack bonus.

    Still Mind (Ex): A monk of 3rd level or higher gains a +2 bonus on saving throws against spells and effects from the school of enchantment.

    Ki Strike (Su): At 4th level, the intensity of the monk's ki focus grants her a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls with her unarmed strikes, and her unarmed strikes gain the magic descriptor and bypass DR/magic. For each four additional monk levels she gains, her enhancement bonus to attack and damage while unarmed increases by an additional +1, and she may select and one of the following weapon qualities: adamantine, alchemical silver, cold iron, or lawful. Her unarmed strikes gain that quality and bypass damage reduction accordingly. A monk with adamantine ki strike bypasses hardness when attacking objects with her unarmed strike.

    Design Notes:
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    The improved ki strike offers more choice and flexibility in bypassing damage reduction and eliminates the numbers gap between a bare-fisted monk and a character with a magic weapon. It also makes the monk less gear-dependent.

    Slow Fall (Ex): At 4th level or higher, a monk learns to balance upon the sky. She can fall the listed distance without taking harm, and reduces the effective distance of longer falls by the same amount when determining how much falling damage she takes.

    Design Notes:
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    The new slow fall frees the monk from wall dependency, which is a good thing since Dance of the Elements makes it likely that the revised monk will find herself in precarious situations more often.

    Wholeness of Body (Su): At 5th level or higher, a monk can use a standard action to heal a creature's wounds with a touch, much as a paladin can. She can heal a number of hit points of damage equal to her monk level times her Wisdom bonus (minimum +1) each day, and she can spread this healing out among several uses.

    Design Notes:
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    Wholeness of body now heals more and can help your friends.

    Ki Shot (Su): Beginning at 5th level, a monk learns to embrace the tranquility and grace of the perfect shot, and may empower ranged attacks with ki. Once per day, she may ignore range increment penalties with special monk weapons and apply her ki strike to any ranged attacks she makes with special monk weapons for one round. If she has the Stunning Fist feat, she may use this ability additional times per day by expending a use of Stunning Fist for each additional use of Ki Shot.

    Design Notes:
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    Improving the monk's ranged capabilities. At its basic level, this feature is nothing special, but when combined with Esoteric Weapon Training (longbow), Improved Ki Strike, and Stunning Fist, the monk can deliver formidable ranged attacks.

    Tongue of the Sun and Moon (Ex): A monk of 7th level or higher can speak with any living creature, and may use her Wisdom modifier in place of her Charisma modifier on Diplomacy checks and Handle Animal checks.

    Design Notes:
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    TotSM is now gained at a more level-appropriate point in the monk's career, and now actually help you negotiate with those creatures you can speak to. Wis to negotiation skills also further reduces the monk's MAD.

    Diamond Body (Su): At 7th level, a monk gains immunity to poisons and diseases of all kinds, even those that are magical in nature.

    Design Notes:
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    Breaking the usual rule that only magic can defeat magic, the monk now resists magical poisons and diseases.

    Abundant Step (Su): At 8th level or higher, a monk can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door, a number of times per day equal to her Wisdom bonus (minimum 1). Her caster level for this effect is equal to her character level.

    Design Notes:
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    Usable more often, and over a greater distance, to be a credible competitor with casters using dimension door

    Improved Evasion (Ex): At 9th level, a monk’s evasion ability improves. She still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, but henceforth she takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

    Diamond Soul (Ex): At 11th level, a monk gains spell resistance equal to her monk level + 10. Unlike spell resistance gained from other sources, the monk can automatically choose to waive her resistance without taking an action whenever she would be affected by a spell, so long as she is conscious. When she is unconscious, her spell resistance does not block harmless spells (such as healing spells), but will interfere with any other spells that would affect her.

    Design Notes:
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    Spell resistance on a PC is normally a trap because of the hoops you have to jump through in order to lower it for beneficial spells. I removed the hoops.

    Quivering Palm (Su): Starting at 12th level, a monk can set up vibrations within the body of another creature that can thereafter be fatal if the monk so desires. She can use this quivering palm attack a number of times per day equal to her Wisdom bonus (minimum 1), and she must announce her intent before making her attack roll. Creatures immune to critical hits cannot be affected unless the monk has some means of bypassing the creature's immunity to critical hits. Otherwise, if the monk strikes successfully and the target takes damage from the blow, the quivering palm attack succeeds. Thereafter the monk can try to slay the victim at any later time, as long as the attempt is made within 30 days. To make such an attempt, the monk merely wills the target to die (a free action), and unless the target makes a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + ˝ the monk’s level + the monk’s Wis modifier), it dies. If the saving throw is successful, the target is no longer in danger from that particular quivering palm attack, but it may still be affected by another one at a later time.

    Design Notes:
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    Quivering palm as written was a colossal insult to monk players, an awkward, difficult-to-use ability that hardly ever influenced play, received at a time when casters could reliably slay with a word several times per day. Now usable more often, and it's possible to nova it during a flurry for extra-brutal stompdown.

    Empty Step (Su): At 13th level or higher, a monk can slip magically between spaces for even longer periods, as if using the spell swift etherealness, a number of times per day equal to her Wisdom bonus (minimum 1). Her caster level for this effect is equal to her character level.

    Design Notes:
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    Empty body's little brother, this keeps the monk effective as an infiltrator at higher levels when barriers become more complex than mere locked doors and stone walls, and allows the monk to compete a little better in high-level "rocket tag" combats where getting hit at the wrong moment can result in instant death.

    Empty Body (Su): At 15th level, a monk gains the ability to assume an ethereal state for a number of rounds per day equal to her monk level times her Wisdom bonus (minimum +1), as though using the spell etherealness. She may go ethereal on a number of different occasions during any single day, as long as the total number of rounds spent in an ethereal state does not exceed her daily limit. Her caster level for this effect is equal to her character level.

    Design Notes:
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    Now gained at a more level-appropriate point, and usable more often.

    Moment of Perfection (Su): At 16th level, the monk is nearing enlightenment, and can align herself perfectly with the universe to achieve a single moment of perfection. She can add her monk level as an insight bonus to any one attack roll, opposed skill or ability check, or saving throw, or to her AC against any one attack, as if calling upon the effect of a moment of prescience spell with a caster level equal to her monk level. She can use this ability once per encounter.

    Design Notes:
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    Can be used to become highly effective in social situations, and also serves as yet another panic button to escape certain peril when in combat.

    Timeless Body (Ex): Upon attaining 17th level, a monk no longer takes penalties to her ability scores for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any such penalties that she has already taken, however, remain in place. Bonuses still accrue, and the monk still dies of old age when her time is up.

    Empty Soul (Su): Upon reaching 19th level, a monk achieves a state of complete emptiness, reacting to all situations without premeditation or thought. She continuously gains the benefits of the foresight spell unpon her person at all times.

    Design Notes:
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    The monk is now impossible to surprise. Empty Soul combines well with Empty Step and Moment of Perfection, allowing her to know what sort of trouble is coming and which class feature will help avoid it.

    Perfect Self (Ex): At 20th level, a monk becomes a magical creature and her type changes to outsider. When targeted by spells and magical effects that consider her type, she may choose whether to be considered an outsider or a member of her former type, whichever is most advantageous. Additionally, the monk gains damage reduction 15/chaotic. Unlike other outsiders, the monk can still be brought back from the dead as if she were a member of her previous creature type.

    Design Notes:
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    Perfect Self is commonly considered another trap, since outsider status is a double-edged sword and the damage reduction granted is not very useful in high-level play. I removed the trap and improved the damage reduction.

    The default presentation here assumes a lawful monk, but if the player and DM agree that a monastic order with a different alignment bent is reasonable, this damage reduction should be modified appropriately to match the monk's alignment.

    Change Log:
    • Reduced skillpoints to accomodate a more stereotypical D&D setting, since the description of my treatment of skill points is apparently tl;dr.
      Reduced DR from 20 to 15.
      Added Dance with the Elements, a scaled ability that improves Balance, Jump and Climb.
      Added a note specifying how Flurry of Blows interacts with feats that allow a character to combine movement and other actions.
      Revised the class table to make the Flurry of Blows attack progression easier to understand.
      Added additional bonus feat options for an archery-focused monk.
      Removed the requirement to be near a wall in order to use Slow Fall.
      Reformatted the entire description to include more detailed descriptions of class features, design notes calling out all changes, and some minor tweaks to the upper-level abilities.
      Divided Empty Strike class feature into Versatile Attack, gained at 1st level, and Empty Strike, gained at 3rd level.
      Converted Trapfinding and associated class skills (Disable Device, Open Lock) into an ACF. Monk now has and can sacrifice Research and associated class skills (Decipher Script, Forgery) to have them.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2012-04-14 at 10:58 PM.
    3.5 Homebrew: Remixes to rebalance nearly every base class, all in the authentic flavor of the originals.
    Tier 1 casters breaking your game? Remix your magic with Philosopher's Stone, or try these flavorful mid-tier classes instead: Machinist, Shapeshifter, Avatar, Magus of Blades, Ritualist, Magician, Dawnblade, Summoner, plus 5 elemental casters!


  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    jiriku's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2009

    Default [3.5] Revised Monk Feats

    NEW FEATS FOR MONKS


    IMPROVED KI DEFENSE [General, Monk]
    You have learned to better focus your ki defensively, and your foes find it more difficult to harm you.
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    Prerequisites: Wisdom 13, Monk AC bonus +2 or skirmish AC bonus +2, base attack bonus +6, Autohypnosis 15 ranks
    Benefits: As long as you are wearing no armor and carrying no more than a light load, your class-based AC bonus improves by +1, and you gain an enhancement from the following table, provided you meet its prerequisites. This is a supernatural ability.
    With eight hours of rest, you may spend an hour practicing a series of ki-focusing exercises to redesignate the special enhancement provided by this feat. If you also have Improved Ki Strike, you may change your choices for both feats at this time.
    Advancement: If you have ki strike +5, base attack +15, and Perfect Self, your existing DR 15/chaotic becomes DR 20/chaotic and epic.
    Special: A monk may select Improved Ki Defense as a bonus feat at 10th level, even if he does not meet the prerequisites.


    {table]Prerequisites|Enhancement|Source
    AC Bonus +2, BAB +6|Acidic|MiC 6
    |Anchoring|MiC 6
    |Ectoplasmic feedback|MiC 10
    |Light fortification|DMG 219
    |Mobility|MiC 13
    |Styptic|MiC 15
    AC Bonus +3, BAB +9|Anchoring, greater|MiC 6
    |Axeblock|MiC 7
    |Blurring, greater|MiC 7
    |Hammerblock|MiC 12
    |Retaliation|MiC 14
    |Spearblock|MiC 14
    AC Bonus +4, BAB +12|Moderate fortification|DMG 219
    |Invulnerability|DMG 219
    |Roaring|MiC 14
    AC Bonus +5, BAB +15|Radiant|MiC 13
    |Soulfire|BoED 112[/table]



    IMPROVED KI STRIKE [General, Monk]
    You have learned to better focus your ki offensively, and can imbue your attacks with unusual effects.
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    Prerequisites: Wisdom 13, Ki Strike +2, base attack bonus +6, Autohypnosis 15 ranks
    Benefit: As long as you are wearing no armor and carrying no more than a light load, the enhancement bonus of your ki strike improves by +1, and you gain an enhancement from the following table, provided you meet its prerequisites. This is a supernatural ability.
    With eight hours of rest, you may spend an hour practicing a series of ki-focusing exercises to redesignate the special enhancement provided by this feat. If you also have Improved Ki Defense, you may change your choices for both feats at this time.
    Advancement: If you have ki strike +5 and base attack +15, your unarmed strikes gain the epic descriptor and bypass DR/epic.
    Special: A monk may select Improved Ki Strike as a bonus feat at 10th level, even if he does not meet the prerequisites.
    If you have a favored enemy, you may choose bane (DMG 224, keyed against one of your favored enemies) or hunting (MiC 36). If you also have ki strike +3 and base atack +9, you may instead choose fiercebane (MiC 35, keyed against one of your favored enemies).
    If you have sneak attack or sudden strike, you may choose deadly precision (MiC 32).
    If you have a smite ability, you may choose mighty smiting (MiC 38).
    If you have power points, you may choose mindfeeder (MiC 38).
    If you have Versatile Unarmed Strike, you may choose keen (DMG 225), which functions as long as you deal slashing or piercing damage.
    If you have a supernatural ability drain or energy drain ability, ki strike +4, and base attack +12, you may choose necrotic focus (MiC 29).
    If you can use bardic music, you may choose harmonizing (MiC 35), but you will look very silly.

    {table]Prerequisites|Enhancement|Source
    ki strike +2, BAB +6|brutal surge|MiC 30
    |Corrosive|MiC 31
    |Defending|DMG 224
    |Deflecting|CWar 134
    |Flaming|DMG 224
    |Frost|DMG 224
    |Ghost touch|DMG 224
    |Impact|MiC 37
    |Last resort|CWar 135
    |Magebane|MiC 38
    |Maiming|MiC 28
    |Merciful|DMG 225
    |Resounding|MiC 42
    |Revealing|MiC 42
    |Shattermantle|MiC 43
    |Shock|DMG 225
    |Spellstrike|MiC 44
    |Sundering|MiC 44
    |Sweeping|MiC 44
    |Thundering|DMG 225
    |Vicious|DMG 226
    |Warning|MiC 46
    |Waterborn|Eb 266
    |Weakening|MiC 46
    Ki strike +3, BAB +9|Acidic burst|MiC 28
    |Axiomatic|DMG 228
    |Collision|MiC 31
    |Disarming|CWar 134
    |Doom burst|MiC 33
    |Enervating|MiC 34
    |Flaming burst|DMG 224
    |Icy burst|DMG 225
    |Impedance|MiC 37
    |Incorporeal binding|MiC 38
    |Parrying|MiC 40
    |Psychokiesis|MiC 41
    |Shocking burst|DMG 225
    |Souldrinking|MiC 44
    |Vampiric|MiC 45
    |Wounding|DMG 226
    Ki strike +4, BAB +12|Bodyfeeder|MiC 30
    |Ethereal reaver|MiC 34
    |Implacable|MiC 37
    |Psychokinetic burst|MiC 41
    |Speed|DMG 225
    Ki strike +5, BAB +15|Brilliant energy|DMG 226[/table]



    Commentary on Improved Ki Defense and Improved Ki Strike
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    A design goal of these feats was that they should be significantly more powerful than regular feats, but essentially only available to the monk class. I wanted to offer a menu of options to the monk player without simply creating a monk spell list, and this fulfills that goal while also fulfilling my goal of making the monk less gear-dependent.
    All of the abilities were chosen with the following constraints in mind:
    1. Should be realistic when applied to a monk's body (so throwing and sizing are right out, for example).
    2. Should not offer a save. An SLA would be Charisma-based, and I want to discourage MAD. Further, the players likely to play a monk in my campaigns tend to be bad at calculating save DCs, so the stunning fist will already be keeping them busy.
    3. Should be always on or usable an unlimited number of times per day. The base monk class already has a large number of limited-use abilities to track; I don't want to add any more.



    ASCETIC NATURALIST [General]
    You belong to a special order of religious monks that teaches its adherents that enlightenment can best be achieved through closeness with the natural world. As a student of this philosophy, you have blended your training as a druid and a monk into one seamless whole.
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    Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, wild shape class ability
    Benefit: While in a wild shape, your natural weapons count as special monk weapons, and you may use natural weapons to deliver stunning fist attempts.
    Your monk and druid levels stack when determining your unarmed strike progression, monk AC bonus progression, and wild shape progression.
    In addition, Handle Animal becomes a monk class skill for you and Autohypnosis becomes a druid class skill for you. This does not apply retroactively to any skill points you have already allocated.
    Special: If you have both the Still Mind and Resist Nature's Lure class features, you gain the Slippery Mind ability (as the rogue ability), but only against enchantment effects originating from creatures of the fey type.


    ESOTERIC WEAPONS TRAINING [General, Monk]
    Your monastic training includes practice with an unusual weapon, one not commonly found among monastic orders.
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    Prerequisite: Flurry of Blows class ability (or ACF acquired by trading out FoB)
    Benefit: Select a one-handed, light, or ranged weapon that requires martial weapon proficiency, or any simple weapon. You gain proficiency with this weapon, and it is considered a special monk weapon for you.
    Advancement: If you have the Moment of Perfection class feature, you gain the following ability:
    Expend a use of Moment of Perfection and perform a flurry with the selected weapon: Every attack roll you make as part of the flurry adds the insight bonus from Moment of Perfection and ignores concealment and total concealment (although you must still target the right square).




    REVISED FEATS FOR MONKS

    Note:
    the feats revised below represent a significant change in power, scale and design from the source material, and directly attack the stereotype that "melee can't have nice things". While the names may be familiar, each feat has been radically modified to make it more effective or to exploit new game mechanics. Many feats scale in power as you advance in level and/or accumulate additional resources.

    While I don't expect them to be overpowered in campaigns that see heavy use of strong feats like Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, Robilar's Gambit, Arcane Thesis, or Practical Metamagic, DMs who are accustomed to low-power, low-optimization campaigns where Weapon Specialization and Spring Attack are considered the height of power may wish to think carefully before allowing these feat revisions. If you're permitting the revised monk, you probably aren't going to be concerned about these feats, but as with all things found on the internet, caveat emptor.


    ASCETIC HUNTER [General]
    You have gone beyond the bounds of your monastic training to incorporate new modes of bringing the unlawful to justice. Although many of your fellow monks frown on your methods, none can doubt that your diverse training has added to your ability to strike precisely and bring down your foes quickly.
    Spoiler
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    Prerequisites: Improved unarmed strike, favored enemy
    Benefit: When you use an unarmed strike or special monk weapon to deliver a stunning attack (or other special attack that expends stunning fist uses) against a favored enemy, increase the DC of the effect by your favored enemy bonus.
    Your monk and ranger levels stack when determining your unarmed strike progression and your favored enemy progression. If you replace either of these features via an alternate class feature, your monk and ranger levels stack when determining the progression of that alternate feature.
    In addition, Survival becomes a monk class skill for you and Autohypnosis becomes a ranger class skill for you. This does not apply retroactively to any skill points you have already allocated.


    ASCETIC KNIGHT [General]
    You belong to a special order of religious monks that teaches its adherents that self-enlightement and honorable service grow from the same well of purity. As a student of this philosophy, you have blended your training as a paladin and a monk into one seamless whole.
    Spoiler
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    Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, Smite ability, Divine Grace ability
    Benefit: When you use an unarmed strike or special monk weapon to deliver a smite and a stunning attack (or other special attack that expends stunning fist uses), increase the DC of the effect by your Divine Grace bonus.
    Your paladin and monk levels stack when determining your unarmed strike progression and smite progression. If you replace either of these features via an alternate class feature, your monk and paladin levels stack when determining the progression of that alternate feature.
    In addition, Ride becomes a monk class skill for you and Autohypnosis becomes a paladin class skill for you. This does not apply retroactively to any skill points you have already allocated.


    ASCETIC MAGE [General]
    You practice an unusual martial art that mixes self-taught spellcasting and melee attacks to great effect.
    Spoiler
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    Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, ability to spontaneously cast 2nd-level arcane spells.
    Benefit: As a swift action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, you can sacrifice one of your daily allotment of spells to add a bonus to your unarmed strike attack and damage rolls for 1 round. The bonus is equal to the level of the spell sacrificed. The spell is lost as if you had cast it.
    Your sorcerer and monk levels stack when determining your unarmed strike progression and your monk AC bonus Progression. You use Charisma instead of Wisdom as the primary ability for your monk class features. If you replace either of these features via an alternate class feature, your monk and sorcerer levels stack when determining the progression of that alternate feature.
    In addition, Spellcraft becomes a monk class skill for you and Autohypnosis becomes a sorcerer class skill for you. This does not apply retroactively to any skill points you have already allocated.


    ASCETIC ROGUE [General]
    You have gone beyond the bounds of your monastic training to incorporate new modes of stealthy combat. Although your fellow monks may frown on your methods, none can doubt that your diverse training has improved your ability to strike precisely and bring down your foes quickly.
    Spoiler
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    Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, sneak attack +2d6.
    Benefit: When you use an unarmed strike or special monk weapon with a sneak attack to deliver a stunning attack, you add 2 to the DC of your stunning attempt.
    Your monk and rogue levels stack when determining your unarmed strike progression and sneak attack progression. In addition, Bluff becomes a monk class skill for you and Autohypnosis becomes a rogue class skill for you. This does not apply retroactively to any skill points you have already allocated.
    Special: If you replace either the monk's unarmed strike damage progression or the rogue's sneak attack with an alternate class feature, your monk and rogue levels stack when determining the progression of that alternate feature. You may still qualify for this feat, although its prerequisites will differ. Your DM will assign an appropriate set of replacement prerequisites.


    AXIOMATIC STRIKE [General]
    You can turn your fist into an instrument of law.
    Spoiler
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    Prerequisite: Ki Strike (lawful)
    Benefit: Your unarmed strikes become axiomatic weapons, dealing 2d6 bonus damage to chaotic creatures and creatures with the chaotic subtype or DR/lawful.
    Advancement: If you have base attack +11 or greater, your unarmed strikes become axiomatic burst weapons. In addition to the bonus damage above, you deal 2d10 damage whenever you score a critical hit against a creature vulnerable to your axiomatic strike.


    EAGLE CLAW ATTACK [General]
    Your superior insight allows you to strike objects with impressive force.
    Spoiler
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    Prerequisites: Wis 13, Improved Sunder, Improved Unarmed Strike
    Benefit: When you make an unarmed strike against an object, you may ignore 5 points of hardness for every feat you have which requires Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite (including this one).
    Advancement: If you have either ki strike (adamantine) or at least five feats (including this one) which require Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, then you may ignore all hardness when attacking objects with your unarmed strikes.


    EARTH'S EMBRACE [General, Monk]
    You can crush opponents when you grapple them.
    Spoiler
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    Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Strength 15
    Benefit: When grappling, if you pin your opponent, you deal critical unarmed strike damage each round that you maintain the pin, as if you had rolled a natural 20 and confirmed a critical. If you receive bonus attacks or damage because of effects that trigger when you score a critical hit, these effects are rolled normally but may not also become critical hits.


    FIERY FIST [Fighter, General]
    By channeling your ki energy, you sheath your limbs in magical fire. Your unarmed strikes deal extra fire damage.
    Spoiler
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    Prerequisites: Dex 13, Wis 13, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, base attack bonus +8.
    Benefit: As a swift action, you can expend one of your uses of the Stunning Fist feat to surround your fists and feet in flame. For the rest of your turn, your unarmed strikes deal an additional 1d6 fire damage, +1 per character level yo have.
    When you select this feat, you gain an additional daily use of Stunning Fist.
    Advancement: If you have at least three feats that require improved unarmed strike as a prerequisite, the damage is 2d6 plus 1/character level. If you have at least six feats that require improved unarmed strike as a prerequisite, the damage is 3d6 plus 1/character level.
    Special: A monk with the Stunning Fist feat can select Fiery Fist as her bonus feat at 2nd level, ignoring the other prerequisites.


    FIERY KI DEFENSE [Fighter, General]
    You channel your ki energy into a cloak of flame that injures all who attempt to strike you.
    Spoiler
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    Prerequisites: Dex 13, Wis 13, Fiery Fist, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, base attack bonus +8.
    Benefit: As a swift action, you can expend one of your uses of the Stunning Fist feat to cloak yourself in flame. You gain fire resistance of 5 x the number of feats you have that require Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, and any creature that strikes you with a melee attack takes 1d6 fire damage, +1 per character level you possess.
    When you select this feat, you gain an additional daily use of Stunning Fist.
    Advancement: If you have at least three feats that require improved unarmed strike as a prerequisite, the damage is 2d6 plus 1/character level. If you have at least six feats that require improved unarmed strike as a prerequisite, the damage is 3d6 plus 1/character level.


    FISTS OF IRON [General]
    You have learned the secrets of imbuing your unarmed attacks with extra force.
    Spoiler
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    Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, base attack bonus +2
    Benefits: Expend a use of Stunning Fist and make an unarmed strike. If you hit, your attack deals damage as if it was of a larger size category. This benefit does not stack with other effects that cause your unarmed strike to deal damage as if it was larger in size. Your maximum "effective size" when using this feat is Colossal.
    Advancement: If you have base attack +8 or greater, your unarmed strike functions as if it were two sizes larger. If you have base attack +15 or greater, your unarmed strike functions as if it were three sizes larger.
    Advancement: If you have ki strike +5, base attack +15, and the Improved Ki Strike feat, your maximum "effective size" is not limited to Colossal.


    FLYING KICK [General]
    You literally leap into battle, dealing devastating damage.
    Spoiler
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    Prerequisites: Str 13, Jump 4 ranks, Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack
    Benefit: Your unarmed strikes deal double damage on a charge.


    FREEZING THE LIFEBLOOD [General]
    You can paralyze an opponent with an unarmed attack.
    Spoiler
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    Prerequisites: Wis 17, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, base attack bonus +10
    Benefit: Expend a use of Stunning Fist and make a touch attack with your unarmed strike. If you hit, you deal no damage, but your opponent is paralyzed (Fort negates, DC 10 + ˝ your character level + your Wis bonus). This paralysis lasts 1 round for each feat you have which requires Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite (including this one). The Fortification ability offers protection from this attack.


    PAIN TOUCH [General]
    You cause intense pain in an opponent with a successful stunning attack.
    Spoiler
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    Prerequisites: Wis 15, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, base attack +2
    Benefit: Victims of your stunning attack are subjected to such debilitating pain that they are nauseated following the round they are stunned. This nauseated condition lasts 1 round for every feat you have which requires Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite (including this one).


    RAPID STUNNING [General]
    You can use your stunning attacks in rapid succession.
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    Prerequisites: Combat Reflexes, Stunning Fist, base attack bonus +6.
    Benefits: You are no longer limited in the number of stunning attacks you may declare each round.
    Normal: You may only declare a stunning attack once per round.


    ROUNDABOUT KICK [General]
    You can follow up on a particularly powerful unarmed attack with a mighty kick, spinning in a complete circle before landing the kick.
    Spoiler
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    Prerequisites: Str 15, Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack
    Benefit: If you score a critical hit with an unarmed strike, immediately take a bonus attack using the same attack bonus that you used for the original roll.
    Advancement: If you have Power Critical, the follow-up attack is at +4 to hit and damage.
    If you have Improved Critical, the follow-up attack is made at your highest base attack bonus, even if the initial attack was one of your iterative attacks taken at a -5, -10, or -15 penalty.


    SUN SCHOOL [Tactical]
    You have learned a number of esoteric martial arts techniques inspired by the sun.
    Spoiler
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    Prerequisites: Flurry of Blows ability, base attack bonus +4
    Benefit: The Sun School feat enables the use of three tactical maneuvers.
    Inexorable Progress of Dawn: To use this maneuver, you must strike your foe twice while using a flurry of blows. Your foe must move back 5 feet, and you may move forward 5 feet if you wish. Neither of you provokes opportunity attacks for this movement.
    Blinding Sun of Noon: To use this maneuver, you must successfully stun your foe two rounds in a row with a stunning blow. The opponent is confused for five minutes.
    Flash of Sunset: To use this maneuver, you must move adjacent to a foe using a teleportation effect, such as the dimension door spell or the monk's Abundant Step class feature. You gain a bonus standard action which can only be used to take an attack against that foe. You may flurry with your attack if you wish. This extra action is an exception to the standard rules for dimension door, which state that you may not take any actions after using a dimension door.


    WEAKENING TOUCH [Fighter, General]
    You can temporarily weaken an opponent with your unarmed strike.
    Spoiler
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    Prerequisites: Wis 17, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, base attack bonus +2
    Benefit: Expend a use of Stunning Fist and make a touch attack with your unarmed strike. If you hit, you deal no damage but your target takes a -8 penalty to Strength. This penalty lasts for 5 minutes, and does not stack with itself. The Fortification ability offers protection against this attack.
    Advancement: If you have at least three feats that require Improved Unarmed Strike, the target is also fatigued. If you have at least six feats that require Improved Unarmed Strike, the target is also exhausted.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2013-02-23 at 01:08 AM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk Alternative Class Features

    MONK ALTERNATIVE CLASS FEATURES


    CRASH LIKE A WAVE, BEND LIKE A REED
    At 1st level, you may choose to trade in your level-based AC bonus and increased unarmed strike damage. You gain the skirmish class feature instead, which applies whenever you attack with an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon while wearing no armor. Whenever you gain levels in a class that would improve your monk unarmed strike progression, it instead improves your skirmish progression. If you choose this alternate class feature, the Superior Unarmed Strike feat improves your base unarmed strike damage instead of increasing your effective monk level. You may multi-class freely with ranger, and you qualify for the Swift Hunter feat as if your monk levels were levels in the scout class.

    Commentary:
    • This ACF reinforces the monk's role as a fast-moving skirmisher and enables him to use monk weapons without taking a hit to his damage output at higher levels.
    • Small monks will appreciate it as well, as it replaces a damage booster that is size-dependent with one that is not. This ACF also opens up some interesting possibilities for monk/ranger multiclass combinations.
    • Normally skirimish is a bit of a downer because it restricts your full attack, but the monk doesn't get an iterative until level 8, and by level 9 his Tumble bonus from Dance with the Elements is high enough to take 10' (instead of 5') adjustments, so the revised monk can qualify for skirmish on a full attack pretty routinely.

    DECISIVE STRIKE
    If you select the Decisive Strike Alternate Class Feature (PH2), you may execute a decisive strike as a standard action, rather than a full-round action.

    Commentary:
    Since the revised monk can flurry as a standard action, it makes sense that Decisive Strike, which replaces flurry, should also become a standard action.

    MANHUNTER
    Level: 1st
    Replaces: If you select this class feature, you do not gain Research as a bonus feat at 1st level, nor do you gain Decipher Script or Forgery as class skills.
    Benefit: You gain Track as a bonus feat, and Survival becomes a monk class skill for you.

    MARTIAL MONK
    Take this class variant when taking your first level of monk. A martial monk attacks using the full base attack progression, but does not gain the Empty Strike class feature at level 3. A martial monk gains 6+int skill points per level rather than 8+Int.

    Commentary:
    For players who want a monk with a full base attack bonus, here it is. This variant gains the ability to make more attacks, at a small cost in accuracy, damage, and skill points.

    SCHOOL OF THE NIMBLE HAND
    Level:
    1st
    Replaces: If you select this class feature, you do not gain Research as a bonus feat at 1st level, nor do you gain Decipher Script or Forgery as class skills.
    Benefit: You gain trapfinding as a rogue, and Disable Device and Open Locks become monk class skills for you.

    SENSE THE VOID
    At 4th level, you may choose to trade in your slow fall ability. You gain blindsense 20 ft. instead. At every even-numbered level thereafter, the range of your blindsense increases by 10 ft. At level 12, you also gain blindsight at half the range of your blindsense.

    Commentary:
    StV is better than Slow Fall. However, many players perceive Slow Fall as an iconic monk class ability and don't want to lose it, even if it makes their character less optimal, so I provided StV as an ACF rather than making a replacement. Also, Dancing with the Elements opens up opportunities to leap from great heights more frequently, making Slow Fall more valuable and rendering this ACF more of an even trade.

    STUDENT OF CHAOS
    Prerequisites: About to take their first level of Monk, chaotic alignment.
    Benefit: May treat all references to Lawful in the Monk class as instead reading Chaotic. In addition, they may take the feat Axiomatic Strike as Anarchic strike, dealing their bonus damage to lawful creatures or those with DR/chaotic.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2012-06-23 at 02:51 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (yes I know...please PEACH anyway)

    Reserved for build stubs and demonstrations of concept. To be filled in tomorrow PM most likely.

    Comparison of ranger 6 w/revised monk 6 (low optimization)
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    32 PB disregarding race or level-based feats (but donating weapon finesse to the ranger)

    Monk Str 10, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 9
    Feats improved grapple, combat reflexes, improved trip
    assuming periapt of wisdom +2
    hp 36, AC 19, Fort +6, Ref +8, Will +10
    skill points 99
    attack routine w/flurry +11/+11, dmg 1d8+6
    two attacks available with full attack, standard attack, or AoO
    trip check +12, grapple check +16

    Ranger Str 12, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 9
    assuming +1 longsword, +1 shortsword, +1 chain shirt
    feats TWF, ITWF
    hp 42, AC 19, Fort +7, Ref +9, Will +4
    skill points 54
    full attack +9/+9/+4/+4, dmg 1d8+2 or 1d6+1
    standard attack or AoO: +11, dmg 1d8+2
    trip check +4, grapple check +7

    Analysis: Ranger has an advantage in durability and slightly better defenses across the board. Monk has 4 more skills at maximum ranks. Monk is slightly more accurate and much more deadly while on the move, ranger has a better full attack. The monk is also considerably more capable than the ranger at tripping and grappling, but this example doesn't bring into play the ranger's spells or animal companion. I think these two are in approximately the same ballpark, which was the intent.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2010-04-23 at 12:58 PM.
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    Tier 1 casters breaking your game? Remix your magic with Philosopher's Stone, or try these flavorful mid-tier classes instead: Machinist, Shapeshifter, Avatar, Magus of Blades, Ritualist, Magician, Dawnblade, Summoner, plus 5 elemental casters!


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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Looks cool to me, but I don't know what I'm talking about.
    One thing, I assume that you need to be lawful, but the requirements aren't up there.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Skill Points at 1st Level: (10 + Int modifier) x 4
    Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 10 + Int modifier.
    How many skill points does a rogue have in your house rules? 12? 14? Because 10 for the monk is really excessive. That's stepping on the rogue's toes, hard. I'd go with the bard's "skill-monkey-lite" 6SP/level. Which in your house rules would work out to 8SP/level. 10 is just insane.

    Also, what? No full BAB? Why can't the monk get a break on this? It would allow them to actually do their job of wading into melee, without all the complication of Flurry of Misses.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    I likey. However, the skillpoints seem a bit (and by a bit, i mean WAAAAAAY) excessive. Unless of course the rest of the classes get more skillz.

    I really like empty strike, for some reason. As a martial artist, I really do enjoy this class.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    I agree with Zeta - better to go for 8 skill points/level (same as Ranger by your rules... unless they count as a "caster") and full BAB.

    Incidentally, you may want to fix some of the monk weapons. I have a house rule that you can sacrifice off-hand strikes while dual-wielding to attempt a disarm or a sunder as if using a two-handed weapon (making the Sai and the Nunchaku have a point to their existence). You may want to make this a two-point skill trick, but it certainly isn't worth a feat.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Lets see.
    More skill points and class skills. That's good (I fully agree that non-casters should have more skill points, I'm actually making a similar rule in my games, giving extra skills to fighters and monks)
    Full BAB. A classic fix. I think a skirmisher should benefit from it as much as a frontliner.
    Better AC. In the ends it gets 1 better point than core. So so.
    Flurry now has normal flurry, and "partial flurry" that is making your normal full attack as a standard action. I like, simple, and allows monks to attack multiple times when moving, leaving the "full" flurry as full round actions.
    Unarmed damage. Hmm. Ends up a bit stronger, yes. I don't know if the increase of dice damage makes it too strong or not.
    Bonus feats. Good too, allow better customization. Another rule I'm thinking about using too, giving more feats for non-casters.
    Skillmonkey abilities. Not sure about it either. Kinda takes away from the rogue, but seeing as so many classes have it these days, it's not really an issue, just another option for skill monkeys.
    Wis and Dex to attack rolls/damage. Made into class features instead of feats. Very good. I could also suggest making it into feats, and have them be bonus monk feats, so you can choose them or pick something else, if you do decide for a high Str monk.
    Ki strike. It was increased to be stronger than just "counts as a magic weapon" to actually BE magic weapons. Like having permanent magic weapon/fangs. Considering his role. I wouldn't say it's overpowered.
    Wholeness of body. More HP healed with high wis. Good as the Paladin's lay on hands now.
    Having Quivering Palm usable by day instead of week is already good. Several times is insanelly good. Considering the difficult to using it, I'd say it's alright. Can it be used in the same target more than once in the same day? I'd say that it should be usable only once in each enemy every day, to avoid people quiverying flurring.
    The top abilities that mimic some high level spells. Not sure about the balance, but I think it's flavourful, so I guess it's alright.
    DR 20/chaotic seems a bit too much, though. Most DRs don't go past 10/something. You already swapped magic for chaotic, that's good enough
    Others abilities being beefed up or usable more than once is a really nice tough.


    All in all, I like. Beefs up a monk, and let him do what he should do.

    A note on your "ki" or "maneuver" comments. I think they'd work nice with monks, I mean, "Ki strike", "Flurry of Blows", "Stunning Fist", and "Quivering Palm" all does sound like maneuver or ki powers to me. The classes that offer new ones just have better mechanics than the core monk. Your version offers a stronger and more usable class, but offers not many more options than the core monk. It is, as people say, give him bigger number (that we know the monk needs), but more options in combat would be nice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Loss View Post
    I likey. However, the skillpoints seem a bit (and by a bit, i mean WAAAAAAY) excessive. Unless of course the rest of the classes get more skillz.

    I really like empty strike, for some reason. As a martial artist, I really do enjoy this class.
    Yes they do. All non-casters get two more in my setting. However, since it's apparently tl;dr, I've subtracted the extra skill points for ease of critiquing.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    I REALLY like this. This is the first monk fix I've seen that I've actually thought was an actual mystic martial artist type character, and wasn't sucky.

    Now I just need to find all the different books I'd need to play one...

    Sorry about the, but I'm not that good at it. I don't see some of the points behind the agreed upon bad or broken things... However, if I ever get a chance to play this guy, I will be sure to let you know how it went.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    This is very, VERY nice. I like it. A lot. I'd definately play this guy.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    What book is Earth's Embrace from?
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Question concerning Empty Strike. I'm making a mojavo monk using this build, but I'm confused. I've got Weapon Finesse put on him to use dexterity in place of strength modifiers to determine his attack for monk skills. With empty strike and Dexterity as my higher tween str and dex, do I simply add the dex mod again?
    Last edited by Wrathofautumn; 2010-05-30 at 02:15 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Hmm, a couple of things stand out:

    Empty strike: If a monk has high DEX, does he get DEX + WIS to hit, and to damage, and to combat manoeuvres? If so, STR is reduced to just providing carrying capacity, and every monk will take high DEX for the AC bonus. If not, that should be rewritten.

    Sense the Void: This is such an obvious choice there's no reason to not ever take it. In addition to better senses, blindsight let's you ignore concealment penalties, like for attacking invisible things.

    IMPROVED KI DEFENSE/IMPROVED KI OFFENCE: Awesome enough that every monk will want them. The 'take at level 10 even without requirements' bit really only means they can take it without autohypnosis, as they have everything else at level 9. Since they will almost certainly take both feats though, it doesn't really help as they need to put skill in autohypnosis anyway. Either let monks take them as bonus feats at level 10 or later, or get rid of the autohypnosis requirements, or get rid of the line about the special exemption at only level 10 (it's just clutter otherwise).

    General commentary: The flurry for extra attacks on a standard action is nice, and the increase in damage means a monk is a bit stronger than a fighter without shock trooper shenanigans. The monk still has issues with flying things: this could be alleviated by making abundant step a move action rather than a standard action. DR/20 is a lot, so unless you're fighting a lot of Titans and Balors (which the core monk was already perfectly decent at fighting), the monk 20 will be pretty much immune to physical attacks. Backing it down to 10 would be reasonable.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dilb View Post
    Hmm, a couple of things stand out:

    Empty strike: If a monk has high DEX, does he get DEX + WIS to hit, and to damage, and to combat manoeuvres? If so, STR is reduced to just providing carrying capacity, and every monk will take high DEX for the AC bonus. If not, that should be rewritten.

    Sense the Void: This is such an obvious choice there's no reason to not ever take it. In addition to better senses, blindsight let's you ignore concealment penalties, like for attacking invisible things.

    IMPROVED KI DEFENSE/IMPROVED KI OFFENCE: Awesome enough that every monk will want them. The 'take at level 10 even without requirements' bit really only means they can take it without autohypnosis, as they have everything else at level 9. Since they will almost certainly take both feats though, it doesn't really help as they need to put skill in autohypnosis anyway. Either let monks take them as bonus feats at level 10 or later, or get rid of the autohypnosis requirements, or get rid of the line about the special exemption at only level 10 (it's just clutter otherwise).

    General commentary: The flurry for extra attacks on a standard action is nice, and the increase in damage means a monk is a bit stronger than a fighter without shock trooper shenanigans. The monk still has issues with flying things: this could be alleviated by making abundant step a move action rather than a standard action. DR/20 is a lot, so unless you're fighting a lot of Titans and Balors (which the core monk was already perfectly decent at fighting), the monk 20 will be pretty much immune to physical attacks. Backing it down to 10 would be reasonable.
    DR 20 will not be negating the majority of damage at level twenty. No where near. By then, fireballs are flinging around for like 15d6 damage, and swords are +10 with 30, 40 strength behind them. DR 20 is nothing at that level.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    First, DR doesn't apply to fireballs, which are still 10d6. Delayed blast fireballs are up to 15d6 sure, but they still allow evasion, and it's easier for this monk to pump DEX to the point where he makes that save more often then not: maybe a 29 DC delayed blast fireball, versus the monk's ~23 (at the lowest) save, so he needs a 6 (a 2 for a regular fireball). Plus the monk as a 45% chance of SR being effective against an equal level caster. So he takes no damage at all ~80% of the time from blasting that allows a reflex save. Since this monk has a touch AC probably in the 40s (10 + 12 WIS + 6 from the levels + 6 DEX + 5 ring = 39), touch attacks aren't too reliable either, necessitating a use of true strike first.

    Second, typical damage at level 20 is ~40 for an attack that's part of a full attack. A CR 20 dragon is gargantuan, and has a 4d6 + STR bite attack, doing about 27 damage on average. The tarrasque only does 4d8 + 27 damage, average 45, with a bite attack. Even if they power attack for an extra 20 damage, DR/20 is still a third of that, and the secondary attacks are worthless (they get half STR, and I don't know if they get anything from PA).

    A non-shock-trooper fighter has a +5 great sword, + 3d6 energy damage, + 18 STR damage (that's from 34 STR), + 2 from weapon specialization, giving 5d6 + 25, averaging 42.5 damage per hit. He can't power attack for that much because even a brilliant energy weapon will miss his ~40 AC, as none of his AC comes from armour. DR/20 cuts the damage in half.

    This monk will absolutely trounce anything that can't get through his DR, which is hard enough as DR/20 chaotic, let alone DR/20 chaotic and epic.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Is there a reason that this monk can't fly?
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dilb View Post
    First, DR doesn't apply to fireballs, which are still 10d6. Delayed blast fireballs are up to 15d6 sure, but they still allow evasion, and it's easier for this monk to pump DEX to the point where he makes that save more often then not: maybe a 29 DC delayed blast fireball, versus the monk's ~23 (at the lowest) save, so he needs a 6 (a 2 for a regular fireball). Plus the monk as a 45% chance of SR being effective against an equal level caster. So he takes no damage at all ~80% of the time from blasting that allows a reflex save. Since this monk has a touch AC probably in the 40s (10 + 12 WIS + 6 from the levels + 6 DEX + 5 ring = 39), touch attacks aren't too reliable either, necessitating a use of true strike first.

    Second, typical damage at level 20 is ~40 for an attack that's part of a full attack. A CR 20 dragon is gargantuan, and has a 4d6 + STR bite attack, doing about 27 damage on average. The tarrasque only does 4d8 + 27 damage, average 45, with a bite attack. Even if they power attack for an extra 20 damage, DR/20 is still a third of that, and the secondary attacks are worthless (they get half STR, and I don't know if they get anything from PA).

    A non-shock-trooper fighter has a +5 great sword, + 3d6 energy damage, + 18 STR damage (that's from 34 STR), + 2 from weapon specialization, giving 5d6 + 25, averaging 42.5 damage per hit. He can't power attack for that much because even a brilliant energy weapon will miss his ~40 AC, as none of his AC comes from armour. DR/20 cuts the damage in half.

    This monk will absolutely trounce anything that can't get through his DR, which is hard enough as DR/20 chaotic, let alone DR/20 chaotic and epic.
    All you've proven here is that this new monk is stronger than: An unoptimized member of the WEAKEST CLASS, and is able to beat some of the WEAKEST spells out there.

    When did we start judging balance based on the Fighter and Evoker?
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Quote Originally Posted by ForzaFiori View Post
    All you've proven here is that this new monk is stronger than: An unoptimized member of the WEAKEST CLASS, and is able to beat some of the WEAKEST spells out there.

    When did we start judging balance based on the Fighter and Evoker?
    You're the one who brought up fireballs and +10 swords. I know perfectly well this monk isn't going to win against batman. Similarly, a fighter with a +50 sword isn't going to win against batman either, but that doesn't mean we should give him that sword to try and even things up.

    With DR/20 chaotic and epic, I'm pretty confident this monk can solo a tarrasque with no real danger to himself (which actually only has +17 damage on it's bite, not +27), which strikes me as just a bit overpowered in the "hitting stuff" department. jiriku said he's aiming for a tier 4, and as I'm pretty sure with DR/20 (that they can't get through, because they can't afford epic weapons) this can beat up most tier 4 classes easily. On top of that, he gets diplomacy and a bunch of other useful skills, and a few dozen ways per day to escape traps/grapples/forcecages.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dilb View Post
    With DR/20 chaotic and epic, I'm pretty confident this monk can solo a tarrasque with no real danger to himself (which actually only has +17 damage on it's bite, not +27), which strikes me as just a bit overpowered in the "hitting stuff" department. jiriku said he's aiming for a tier 4, and as I'm pretty sure with DR/20 (that they can't get through, because they can't afford epic weapons) this can beat up most tier 4 classes easily. On top of that, he gets diplomacy and a bunch of other useful skills, and a few dozen ways per day to escape traps/grapples/forcecages.
    He doesn't have the wish to kill the tarrasque, though, and if "soloing the tarrasque" is "bringing it way down into the negatives without actually killing it" then any low-level character with flight and a ranged weapon qualifies as well.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost View Post
    He doesn't have the wish to kill the tarrasque, though, and if "soloing the tarrasque" is "bringing it way down into the negatives without actually killing it" then any low-level character with flight and a ranged weapon qualifies as well.
    You have a low level character that can hit AC 35, beat DR/15 epic, and fast healing 40, and do 850 damage? And really, wish is hardly the important part when the monk just out-punched godzilla. Is it that hard to imagine he has a ring of three wishes (as I certainly didn't claim the monk was naked, and he has WBL to spare thanks to the fact that he doesn't need to purchase weapons or armour equivalents), or someone had a scroll and donated it to the "I don't want to be eaten by a tarrasque" fund where an NPC wizard cast it, or that obstacles deliberately designed for 3 of 11 classes aren't forced upon solo characters? This is the homebrew forum, not theoretical optimization.

    This monk can also take on balors, pit fiends, gargantuan dragons, and titans, and will win pretty much anytime he doesn't roll a 1 on a save or die after failing a SR check, assuming that "they fly/teleport away" isn't counted as a loss for the monk. I really don't think there's anything controversial about saying that with DR/20 this monk is kinda strong, compared to say:
    CR 20
    Tier 4 classes at level 20
    This monk at level 19

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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dilb View Post
    You have a low level character that can hit AC 35, beat DR/15 epic, and fast healing 40, and do 850 damage? And really, wish is hardly the important part when the monk just out-punched godzilla. Is it that hard to imagine he has a ring of three wishes (as I certainly didn't claim the monk was naked, and he has WBL to spare thanks to the fact that he doesn't need to purchase weapons or armour equivalents), or someone had a scroll and donated it to the "I don't want to be eaten by a tarrasque" fund where an NPC wizard cast it, or that obstacles deliberately designed for 3 of 11 classes aren't forced upon solo characters? This is the homebrew forum, not theoretical optimization.
    It's not impossible with practical optimization at the 6-8 level range, before even getting into TO territory; the fact that it is in fact possible means "It can solo the tarrasque!!" isn't a good measure of power or lack thereof. 20th-level characters are nigh-unto gods; the problem isn't with the PC's power level, it's that a puzzle monster with no ranged attacks, no magic, and no countermeasures aside from bouncing rays isn't anywhere near CR 20.

    This monk can also take on balors, pit fiends, gargantuan dragons, and titans, and will win pretty much anytime he doesn't roll a 1 on a save or die after failing a SR check, assuming that "they fly/teleport away" isn't counted as a loss for the monk. I really don't think there's anything controversial about saying that with DR/20 this monk is kinda strong, compared to say:
    CR 20
    Tier 4 classes at level 20
    This monk at level 19
    DR 20 is not nearly as amazing as you seem to think. Heck, a vanilla rogue 20 with the TWF tree and appropriate WBL is getting at minimum 16 damage with sneak attacks, and after other typical feats and items should be hitting a minimum of 25 or 30 damage per attack for 6-7 attacks--and rogues aren't even primary martial damage-dealers.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost View Post
    It's not impossible with practical optimization at the 6-8 level range, before even getting into TO territory; the fact that it is in fact possible means "It can solo the tarrasque!!" isn't a good measure of power or lack thereof. 20th-level characters are nigh-unto gods; the problem isn't with the PC's power level, it's that a puzzle monster with no ranged attacks, no magic, and no countermeasures aside from bouncing rays isn't anywhere near CR 20.
    Could you tell me what that build is? Last I saw it takes more like a cleric 13, or several dozen of archers. And again, the monk is standing there trading blows, not flying safely out of reach: if you feel in a direct brawl, trading attacks back and forth, the tarrasque is underpowered for CR 20, then you have really different expectations of what is appropriate for martial characters.

    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost View Post
    DR 20 is not nearly as amazing as you seem to think. Heck, a vanilla rogue 20 with the TWF tree and appropriate WBL is getting at minimum 16 damage with sneak attacks, and after other typical feats and items should be hitting a minimum of 25 or 30 damage per attack for 6-7 attacks--and rogues aren't even primary martial damage-dealers.
    Please, run some math for me. Calculate how much damage that rouge does, assuming he gets sneak attacks in this 1 on 1 battle, on average, both with and without that DR/20, recalling that the monk has 41 AC. Calculate how much damage the monk does.
    Here, my numbers are:
    Rogue: ~14d6 + 8 damage, at +33/+28/+23 to hit, twice. Average damage against 41 AC, about 150 per round. With 20 subtracted from each hit, that drops to 100 per round.
    Monk: 6d6 + 24 damage, at +39/+39/+39/+34/+29. Average damage against 41 AC (which is harder for the rogue to get, as he doesn't have DEX and WIS to AC, and doesn't get +6 enhancement on his armour), 190 per round.
    Bear in mind that even if the monk is flatfooted, he keeps his AC from WIS and class levels, and to feint you need to beat a sense motive + BAB check, which even untrained is at +27 for the monk.
    DR/20 takes it from "the rogue has a chance in a straight fight, especially if he wins initiative" to "the rogue almost certainly loses".

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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dilb View Post
    Could you tell me what that build is? Last I saw it takes more like a cleric 13, or several dozen of archers.
    Obviously using a weapon instead of spells is going to make it harder, but a warblade/bloodstorm blade with Stone Dragon maneuvers can do it, as can a ranger with hunter's mercy or other auto-crit abilities, a swift hunter build with Power Shot or another Power-Attack-with-ranged-weapons analog, or similar.

    And again, the monk is standing there trading blows, not flying safely out of reach: if you feel in a direct brawl, trading attacks back and forth, the tarrasque is underpowered for CR 20, then you have really different expectations of what is appropriate for martial characters.
    1) Sitting there trading punches with a wight or other energy-draining undead is also a bad idea, but it doesn't raise their CR, it means you're going about it wrong. The fact that the tarrasque can be soloed by vastly lower-level PCs, even at level 15 or so, means it's over-CRed, regardless of whether a solo monk flurrying it to death has trouble with it.

    2) I'm not talking about martial characters vs. the tarrasque, I'm talking about any character. If a monster can't deal with flight, or miss chances, or ranged attacks, or similarly ubiquitous tactics, it really doesn't deserve a CR above 10 or so, regardless of how annoying it is to finally kill permanently, regardless of its HD.

    Please, run some math for me. Calculate how much damage that rouge does, assuming he gets sneak attacks in this 1 on 1 battle, on average, both with and without that DR/20, recalling that the monk has 41 AC. Calculate how much damage the monk does.
    Here, my numbers are:
    Rogue: ~14d6 + 8 damage, at +33/+28/+23 to hit, twice. Average damage against 41 AC, about 150 per round. With 20 subtracted from each hit, that drops to 100 per round.
    Monk: 6d6 + 24 damage, at +39/+39/+39/+34/+29. Average damage against 41 AC (which is harder for the rogue to get, as he doesn't have DEX and WIS to AC, and doesn't get +6 enhancement on his armour), 190 per round.
    Bear in mind that even if the monk is flatfooted, he keeps his AC from WIS and class levels, and to feint you need to beat a sense motive + BAB check, which even untrained is at +27 for the monk.
    DR/20 takes it from "the rogue has a chance in a straight fight, especially if he wins initiative" to "the rogue almost certainly loses".
    So what you're saying is that a rogue, a non-primary combatant who relies on situational damage and multiple attacks (which are always weak vs. DR) doesn't beat a front-line, combat-focused character with DR? Shocking. Did I ever say I expected the rogue to own the monk? No, because like archers, TWFers, and other multi-attackers the rogue hates DR; I simply said he's not useless against the monk (just comparing minimum damage with DR), and given their HP, he can even kill the monk if he gets a surprise round and wins initiative, just like the monk can do if it does the same.

    Granted, this monk overshoots the Tier 4 set in the OP, but that's not a bad thing; the rogue sits on the fence between tiers 3 and 4 depending on what it's built for, so a tier 3 monk should be a cut above the rogue in the combat department. I only mentioned a rogue to show that he won't auto-lose to the monk; compare it to another Tier 3 frontliner and it'll come out roughly comparable.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Do you have any links to builds which actually do so? I don't see how, for example, a spell allowing 1 critical hit a round with a bow is going to do more than 70 damage at very low levels.

    But I really don't care if there are smarter ways of fighting the tarrasque. The point is the monk can fight it in accordance with the Marquess of Queensberry rules and has a good chance of coming out on top. It's a huge step up in power compared to a monk 19. Even if there are non-hitting ways of beating the monk, that's no reason to throw out balance for the hitting parts.

    If you really must, imagine my super-duper homebrew creature: flying tarrasque. It flies, moves really really fast (10 000 feet per round, perfect manoeuvrability), and it can see you (+ a billion to spot, and blindsight, and it sees and hits things on the ethereal plane, and it can follow you through teleports and plane shifts and everything else, regardless of the time elapsed if it's busy), and it specifically wants to kill you and your party in particular. It's attacks and defences are exactly as strong as normal tarrasque. Does it seem reasonable that the monk can out-box it?

    If you feel DR/20 is appropriate then a monk 19 is underpowered. I feel DR/20 is too much, and think monk 20 is overpowered. Either way, suddenly getting DR/20 is an anomalous jump.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dilb View Post
    Do you have any links to builds which actually do so? I don't see how, for example, a spell allowing 1 critical hit a round with a bow is going to do more than 70 damage at very low levels.
    I can't find any links at the moment, but here's a build off the top of my head: a generic fighter 2/rogue 6 (either a psionic race or human with Wild Talent) with +4 Str and Dex mods from items or race or whatever, with the PBS, Psionic Shot, Fell Shot, Psionic Meditation, and Craven feats, and with a +2 shocking mighty composite (+4) longbow, one or more scrolls of greater invisibility, and a wand of hunter's mercy deals (1d8+4d6+12)x3 damage per round, which works out to an average of 76 damage after DR (min 36, max 117) or 36 after DR + regen (min 0, max 77). With Fell Shot he's targeting the tarrasque's 5 touch AC, so there's no danger of him missing any time soon. Swift for the wand, move to regain focus, standard to fire, repeat.

    All he has to do is keep plinking away and he'll have the tarrasque dead in an average of just over 2.5 minutes. That's without using more than a fraction of WBL, using common archery and rogue feats, and without undue optimization. If he's a level higher, he can pick up Telling Blow and no longer need the greater invisibility scrolls; if he wants to spend more WBL, he can add more damage enchantments/items to kill Big T faster. If I were to actually open my books and go through the good items and rogue feats to really optimize this, I'm sure I could kick this up a notch, and if I were to remove the rogue restriction and bring bloodstorm blade into this, it gets an order of magnitude easier.

    Satisfied?

    But I really don't care if there are smarter ways of fighting the tarrasque. The point is the monk can fight it in accordance with the Marquess of Queensberry rules and has a good chance of coming out on top. It's a huge step up in power compared to a monk 19. Even if there are non-hitting ways of beating the monk, that's no reason to throw out balance for the hitting parts.
    Why should fisticuffs be out of the question just because it's the tarrasque? Level 1 characters can go toe-to-toe with goblins; level 7 characters (think Hercules) can go toe-to-toe with hydrae; where's the magical cutoff where slugging it out according to Queensberry rules is suddenly not a good thing?

    If you really must, imagine my super-duper homebrew creature: flying tarrasque. It flies, moves really really fast (10 000 feet per round, perfect manoeuvrability), and it can see you (+ a billion to spot, and blindsight, and it sees and hits things on the ethereal plane, and it can follow you through teleports and plane shifts and everything else, regardless of the time elapsed if it's busy), and it specifically wants to kill you and your party in particular. It's attacks and defences are exactly as strong as normal tarrasque. Does it seem reasonable that the monk can out-box it?
    If you're giving it godlike powers, it doesn't make sense for anything to defeat it. At that point it's no longer a huge brute but rather an unstoppable hunter-killer machine, so all bets are off as to what seems "reasonable."

    If you feel DR/20 is appropriate then a monk 19 is underpowered. I feel DR/20 is too much, and think monk 20 is overpowered. Either way, suddenly getting DR/20 is an anomalous jump.
    I don't think suddenly giving DR with no precedent is necessarily a good capstone, and would support DR = level at some point (13th or thereabouts) so it caps at 20 but gets there gradually. I was only arguing against the notion that DR 20 is too good at that level; where it fits in with the rest of the monk is still up for debate.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Huh, swift action spell wands are errataed to swift actions. That's stupid. Thanks though. Although sneak attack damage isn't multiplied by crits.

    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost View Post
    Why should fisticuffs be out of the question just because it's the tarrasque? Level 1 characters can go toe-to-toe with goblins; level 7 characters (think Hercules) can go toe-to-toe with hydrae; where's the magical cutoff where slugging it out according to Queensberry rules is suddenly not a good thing?
    Of course fisticuffs are the option. My point is that you shouldn't be able to out-fisticuff an equal CR challenge with almost no risk. Thanks the the DR, the tarrasque is not a threat in combat to the monk. The tarrasque does ~30 damage a round, the monk does over 200 to the tarrasque. Result: dead tarrasque, slightly inconvenienced monk.

    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost View Post
    If you're giving it godlike powers, it doesn't make sense for anything to defeat it. At that point it's no longer a huge brute but rather an unstoppable hunter-killer machine, so all bets are off as to what seems "reasonable."
    Again, my point is this monk can easily defeat it. A 4 man party, even 4 core fighters can defeat it working together, but this single monk can take it on at even less risk to himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost View Post
    I don't think suddenly giving DR with no precedent is necessarily a good capstone, and would support DR = level at some point (13th or thereabouts) so it caps at 20 but gets there gradually. I was only arguing against the notion that DR 20 is too good at that level; where it fits in with the rest of the monk is still up for debate.
    Sure, that would make more sense, yeah.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dilb View Post
    Huh, swift action spell wands are errataed to swift actions. That's stupid. Thanks though. Although sneak attack damage isn't multiplied by crits.
    Whoops; haven't made that mistake in a while. Throw in Power Shot and add collision, corrosive, and frost to the arrows, then, and you're back to the same average damage; either way, you can get up to 70 damage easily enough, and again the rogue is the worst way to do it.

    Of course fisticuffs are the option. My point is that you shouldn't be able to out-fisticuff an equal CR challenge with almost no risk. Thanks the the DR, the tarrasque is not a threat in combat to the monk. The tarrasque does ~30 damage a round, the monk does over 200 to the tarrasque. Result: dead tarrasque, slightly inconvenienced monk.
    Why not? A barbarian full-attacking with a greataxe can do the same thing, with the higher HD and Con most likely soaking up the damage the DR would cover and with his higher damage ending combat sooner. Above 6th level, you get most of your damage by sitting in one place and full-attacking, unless you're a charge build in which case you move around to charge. Trading blows in melee is inevitably going to happen with any and every effective melee character.

    Again, my point is this monk can easily defeat it. A 4 man party, even 4 core fighters can defeat it working together, but this single monk can take it on at even less risk to himself.
    As shown above, a single character of almost any Tier 4 or higher class can solo it with zero risk if built right. "Can class X defeat monster Y by itself?" isn't a good question; you need to test it against a wide variety of challenges and compare its abilities to comparable monsters and classes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by abadguy View Post
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    I command thee, thread, to rise again, and walk the earth once more!

    (This thread necromancy carries the moderator seal of approval. No undead were harmed in the making of this post.)


    I will first respond to previous posters, in case any are still drifting about this forum.

    ForzaFiori: Earth's Embrace is from Complete Warrior. I have a homebrew version of it which I intended to include in the feats post and I now see that I forgot to do so. I'll add that tonight when I get home from work.



    Wrathofautumn: Weapon Finesse is not intended to stack in any useful way with Empty Strike. Empty Strike is intended to be Weapon Finesse++. I'd recommend retraining Weapon Finesse to another feat.



    Dilb: You are correct. Strength can easily be used as a dump stat for the revised monk, although I worded Empty Strike in such a way that a character who wants a big, burly, muscular monk can play one if he wants too. It's slightly less optimal, but since this is a base class I want to leave all the doors open.

    Your next observation is also correct: Sense the Void is much better than Slow Fall. However, I didn't want to remove Slow Fall, since it's an iconic monk ability in the minds of many players. Thus, I added StV as an ACF. I expect that most optimizers will trade away Slow Fall for an ACF, either StV or something else.

    I see that I made an error in setting the requirements for Improved Ki Defense and Improved Ki Strike. There requirements are intended to force the monk to choose either an offensive or defensive slant with his abilities. A monk can't have both without committing extra resources (the skill points put into Autohypnosis). Also, because of the Autohypnosis requirement, it's difficult for someone who dips monk to acquire these feats without investing an even larger number of skill points (they're paying cross class or burning a feat on Able Learner). I've increased the requirement from 12 points to 15; this means that acquiring one of the feats via the monk bonus feat progression is now an early access method.

    I'm persuaded by your concerns about the damage reduction. I'll reduce it to DR 15/chaotic, increasing to DR 20/chaotic and epic with the Improved Ki Defense feat.


    Doc Roc: I dunno why, but flying monks just don't sit well with me. It seems goofy somehow. More than half of the Tier 3 classes don't have ready access to flight, but now that I think of it, the non-flyers all have something useful to do when facing flying opponents. After some considering, I see the design hole you're pointing out, though. Maybe there's room for compromise? How about ridiculously large bonuses to Balance, Jump, and Tumble, enabling the monk to hit epic skill DCs in the mid-teens (run up a wall, balance on a blade, dash across a lake, and other wuxia-style actions), and some improvement in ranged attacks that make the various monk thrown weapons more viable? Can you offer any suggestions in this vein?
    Last edited by jiriku; 2010-06-22 at 10:58 AM.
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