[3.5] The Monk Remixed

[jiriku]

Good plug for the monk! The revised monk has been demonstrated, under extremely strenuous conditions, to be very solid at surviving the traps he inadvertently triggers by failing Disable Device checks. Immunity to poison turns out to be extremely useful on a trap monkey!

The monk also makes an excellent helium balloon, for those of you who have read the Tomb of Horrors and know what I'm talking about.

[CaeruliusVentus]

A point of clarity with the Ascetic Knight feat fix, by smite progression do you mean the number of smites per day as well as damage?

[jiriku]

Yes, exactly. Your smite feature advances up the paladin class table as if you were a paladin of level (paladin level + monk level).

[Hiro Protagonest]

I'm gonna use this revision in my campaign.

[jiriku]

Awesome! Left me know how it goes.

[SPoD]

By way of feedback: I was considering asking a DM to allow this fix, but I changed my mind. I thought it might help you to know why: the campaign is starting at level 1, and my rolled stats are not fantastic. Why does that affect my choice? Because this monk gets to add Wisdom and Dexterity to his attack and damage rolls at level 3... but not before. If I want to play this theoretical high Dex, high Wis monk, I have to labor through two levels relying on Strength and thus having a crappy chance to hit and damage. I could put a high stat in Strength, but then I'm losing out on Dex. I'm right back to the same MAD, and your intro says you were trying to de-emphasize Strength.

I realize most of the homebrew on this board tends to get evaluated based on the high level end of things, but I thought it might help to get the perspective of a 1st level player on the class. Maybe you could allow 1st level monks to replace their Strength bonus to attack and damage with their Wisdom bonus on unarmed attacks, which then increases to adding their Wisdom bonus at 3rd level. That would allow someone to be an effective 1st-level monk with a 10 Strength without really offering much to dippers.

[jiriku]

Hmm, good point. It's the same case of the Dex-based rogue who's sucking wind in melee combat for his first two levels because he doesn't qualify for Weapon Finesse until level 2 and doesn't get a feat slot to buy it until level 3.

Maybe what I could do is implement Versatile Attack for all monks at level 1, instead of the martial monk at level 3. Then I can remove the whole Strength/Dex interchange from Empty Strike, since it will already be provided. This would do more or less what you suggested. Versatile Attack isn't likely to invite dippage because the weapon and armor restrictions make it attractive only to the sort of builds that would want to dip monk anyhow.

Done and done!

[Hiro Protagonest]

Awesome! Left me know how it goes.

I will.

But it's gestalt, and it's gonna be monk/warblade (with a house rule that warblades can use setting sun), so it'll probably be really powerful compared to the rest of the low optimization group. Actually, I'm the DM, it'll be an NPC member of the party. Though it will be treated, for all intents and purposes, as a PC.

[Heidigger]

Hey man, he can cast epic spells, he doesn't need any of your DM hocus pocus mumbo jumbo. Chances are we're going to walk in and then he's going to force our skeletons to jump out of our throats... I should stop talking now before I give you any more ideas.

And unless you forget, I've been hit by damn near every trap that didn't get disarmed. I even got anti-gravved and spent a session bouncing along the ceiling like the red balloon. My poor monk is probably going to suffer an alignment shift from PTSD.

You may be wondering why I'm quoting myself. I am quoting myself because I actually managed to guess how it would end. The only difference is that my soul was torn out of my throat, not my skeleton. F*** instant death demi-lich spells.

[jiriku]

Note: The revised monk has excellent saves, even better than those associates with the regular monk, since MAD is reduced and the character is therefore more likely to have high stat bonuses to contribute to his already-good saves.

Heidigger's monk failed the save against the demi-lich's death howl by only one point, the best result for the entire party (among those who were not immune to death effects). He almost survived.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I think you should make alignment any non-chaotic, not any lawful.

I also think you should add ghost touch to the list of abilities you're able to get from ki strike. I know you can get it with the improved ki strike feat, but that requires you to spend a feat.

[byaku rai]

Playing this fix in a new campaign. I'm at level 3, and it's working great so far. My girlfriend is playing a Warblade in the same party, and I've got slightly more health than her, the same attack bonus, and only slightly worse damage (DM has houseruled that 2-handed weapons do double STR to attack and damage). DwtE has already helped a lot, and I'm looking forward to making him unhappy with the higher level class abilities.

The rest of my party is:
1) A very sub-optimal ranger who has gotten a grand total of one hit so far.

2) A cleric who's gonna become a C-zilla, but who is useless in the meantime.

3) A TN dread necromancer who hasn't managed to collect a zombie army yet.

I want to play your fix through 1-20 (if we make it that far) and I'll be sure to post about its performance. Advance warning: thinking about dipping Warblade 1 for the Sudden Leap maneuver (SL + DwtE = PWN).

[Mayhem]

Nice work. I did catch one slip: At level 5 the 3/4 BAB should be +3, but you have it as +4.

[jiriku]

Corrected!

@ Byaku: Sudden Leap does sound like some powerful potential pwnage. If the ranger player starts to feel useless once the cleric and dread necromancer get their game on, feel free to gently nudge him in the direction of my swift hunter class.

[byaku rai]

Will do. link's in your sig, right?

[Pechvarry]

Playing this fix in a new campaign. I'm at level 3, and it's working great so far. My girlfriend is playing a Warblade in the same party, and I've got slightly more health than her, the same attack bonus, and only slightly worse damage (DM has houseruled that 2-handed weapons do double STR to attack and damage). DwtE has already helped a lot, and I'm looking forward to making him unhappy with the higher level class abilities.

Does this concern anyone else? The damage nudge for 2x STR isn't so horrid, but it's apparently what keeps Byaku's damage from being basically even with a Warblade... but same attack bonus when the Warblade is getting 2x STR to attack?!

[jiriku]

But from an accuracy perspective, here's what you're seeing:
warblade: full BAB (3) + 2*Str + weapon (assuming at least +1 for mwk)
monk: medium BAB (2) + Dex + Wis - flurry (2)

So the warblade's attack bonus must be 4 + 2*Str, while the monk's bonus is 0 + Dex + Wis. Looks like the monk has excellent Dex and Wis while the warblade has unexpectedly low Strength.

Although, given that his character has slightly more hp than a warblade despite having a hit die three sizes smaller, I've got to wonder where all the warblade's stat points went. Int and Cha?

[byaku rai]

Misunderstanding: I have the same attack bonus when not flurrying. o.o If i had the same bonus with the flurry -2, i'd be scared. She has a STR of 18.

As for HP, she rolled badly for her stats and her hit dice. x.x I'm probably gonna push the DM to let her re-roll the 12 (Con) 2 11s (Int and Cha) and 10 (wis).

[CaptainPlatypus]

Posting simply to add publicity! A player requested using this class (along with another option which she seems more interested anyway) in my campaign, and I had to turn her down, because it's balanced too well. What? Well, it's a very low magic/item campaign, and a monk designed to compete with readily available magic weapons/armor would be a bit much when the rest of the party doesn't even reliably have masterwork gear. I absolutely love the way it looks, though, and how it did in my playtesting (speed-ran it through a couple prepackaged adventures with old character sheets for a party of druid/warblade/binder/monk, and it contributed exactly the right amount IMO) and I can't wait to try it out for myself (or just play with one in the party).

I will say, though, that it "feels" like a T3 class to me. That isn't a complaint, because I love T3 play more than anything, but it's almost strictly better than the core rogue from my way of thinking - slightly less versatile out of combat, massively more so in combat, with better defenses. That may be partially due to my poor personal ability to make the most out of sneak attack, though. If that wasn't the case, I'd just go Monk1/Rogue3/Monk2-17 and do ludicrous haste/speed-snapkick-flurry-sneak-attack damage. From Flash of Sunset. Now that's an assassination.

Speaking of which, are Improved Ki Defense/Strike, Sun School and Pain Touch intended to be more or less taken by every revised monk? Or is this just a function of me not (yet!) having the Book of Feats pdf you mentioned being in the works?

[jiriku]

It's great to hear about other playtest results!

My original goal was to bring the class from a low T5 to a strong T4, but I'd be pleased if I overshot the mark and gave it enough versatility to mesh well with T3 classes. My desire has always been to give would-be monk players an option that allows them to fit seamlessly into a mid-power group.

Monk remix is better than rogue, yessir. Rogue fixes aren't as popular because core rogues are actually halfway-usable, but for those desiring a T3 rogue, I recommend my daring outlaw class remix, which combines rogue and swashbuckler with flashy combat tricks, a knack for mischief-making, and very good luck.

There aren't intended to be any overdetermined feat choices, although IKS and IKD are intentionally very strong feats. Even those aren't necessarily the best choice for every monk, though. No one in the playtesting I've conducted has ever taken Sun School or Pain Touch, so I'd say you've probably just hit on a strong combination of feats that works well with the kind of playstyle you enjoy.

[CaptainPlatypus]

It's great to hear about other playtest results!

My original goal was to bring the class from a low T5 to a strong T4, but I'd be pleased if I overshot the mark and gave it enough versatility to mesh well with T3 classes. My desire has always been to give would-be monk players an option that allows them to fit seamlessly into a mid-power group.

Monk remix is better than rogue, yessir. Rogue fixes aren't as popular because core rogues are actually halfway-usable, but for those desiring a T3 rogue, I recommend my daring outlaw class remix, which combines rogue and swashbuckler with flashy combat tricks, a knack for mischief-making, and very good luck.

There aren't intended to be any overdetermined feat choices, although IKS and IKD are intentionally very strong feats. Even those aren't necessarily the best choice for every monk, though. No one in the playtesting I've conducted has ever taken Sun School or Pain Touch, so I'd say you've probably just hit on a strong combination of feats that works well with the kind of playstyle you enjoy.

All of that makes sense to me. And yeah, I just checked out the rest of your homebrew classes last night. Love them, especially the daring outlaw/knight-paladin (though I have to say, I'd have called it a knight-errant) - it's been so long since I messed around with magic classes that I'm not entirely sure on the balance of the others. Can't wait to see the shapeshifter and prophet, though!

As regards Sun School and Pain Touch, it's quite likely that they simply mesh well with both the characters I like to play and the types of encounters I enjoy most - they're excellent for (respectively) reaching and shutting down hard-to-reach-via-melee, dangerous foes, such as casters. And frankly, I was playtesting it along with (and against) traditional, tier 1 and 2 spellcasters, so it's entirely possible that the feats thrive in that environment more than they would otherwise. It's hard for me to believe that effectively extending the duration of stunning fist by X rounds (enjoy your single move action) isn't something everyone would want to do, ditto using abundant step followed by an immediate flurry, but again, that could be (and probably is) entirely playstyle dependent. :)

Anyway, the original point here was to congratulate you on how well the rest of the classes seem to be balanced as well. If you ever get the chance to make a .pdf with the classes/feats/etc all concatenated, that would be brilliant - until then, I may just have to bookmark your "extended signature" post.

[Pechvarry]

I just need to toss it out there: I feel like Empty Strike needs moved to 5th level, where it won't be such a bloat to attack rolls. I guess it doesn't really matter, but that monk-warblade comparison still has me feeling uneasy. The important part is that I know that disparity would disappear by level 6 or so (hence the desire to see the feature delayed a bit.) so I know it's still a good and balanced class feature.

[CaptainPlatypus]

I just need to toss it out there: I feel like Empty Strike needs moved to 5th level, where it won't be such a bloat to attack rolls. I guess it doesn't really matter, but that monk-warblade comparison still has me feeling uneasy. The important part is that I know that disparity would disappear by level 6 or so (hence the desire to see the feature delayed a bit.) so I know it's still a good and balanced class feature.

Frankly, I feel like this is true of DwtE as well - they're both good and balanced class features, but IMO the first levels come a bit too early. Fifth would be a nice spot for Empty Strike in particular because it's the second level at which a medium BAB progression like the monk's gets left out, making it a nice spot to toss this in. On the other hand, I don't think giving Ki Shot and Wholeness of Body at third instead of fifth would be gamebreaking - Wholeness is balanced by the level requirement, and Ki Shot is at once situational for a melee monk and more or less a necessity for a ranged monk (especially one that's using shuriken, which would be the most awesome thing ever).

You could argue that both of those would then be vulnerable to dips, but I don't think either is anywhere near as dip-rewarding as Empty Strike and DwtE.

[CaeruliusVentus]

I think DwtE is reasonable where it is since at 3rd level it lets you be really good at the skills but not really epic. You can tumble freely and jump well enough to make the skill useful in some situations.
Empty strike, on the other hand seems too strong as a class feature when wis is added to damage. Assuming a wis mod of at least 2, that is getting the benefit of weapon specialization on all monk weapons. This in addition to allowing dex as the attack and damage stat (free weapon finesse).

What about if empty strike only adds wis mod to attack and things like grapple? Then you have the capability to go toe to toe with a full BAB as far as being able to hit but not necessarily being able to deal as much damage with each attack.

[jiriku]

Misunderstanding: I have the same attack bonus when not flurrying. o.o If i had the same bonus with the flurry -2, i'd be scared. She has a STR of 18.

As for HP, she rolled badly for her stats and her hit dice. x.x I'm probably gonna push the DM to let her re-roll the 12 (Con) 2 11s (Int and Cha) and 10 (wis).

So, if I understand correctly, the warblade's attack bonus is +11 (+3 BAB + 8 Str). And for your monk to have a +11 bonus at 3rd level, you must have something on the order of 20 Wis and 18 Dex (+2 BAB, +5 Wis, +4 Dex).

I think there's strength in the argument that ki shot and empty strike could be switched, but it seems to me that the monk/warblade comparison is badly distorted by rolled stats that favored the monk very highly over the warblade.

Assuming the elite array, which is fairly standard for NPC opponents:

• warblade 3, Str 15, mwk sword: +6 to hit
• monk 3, Dex 14, Wis 15, mwk staff, FoB: +5 to hit

• warblade 5, Str 16, +1 sword: +9 to hit
• monk 5, Dex 14, Wis 16, ki strike +1, Fob: +8 to hit

Assuming 32 PB, which would allow an 18 in a primary stat and a 16 in a secondary stat:

• warblade 3, Str 18, mwk sword: +8 to hit
• monk 3, Dex 16, Wis 18, mwk staff, FoB: +8 to hit

• warblade 5, Str 19, +1 sword: +10 to hit
• monk 5, Dex 16, Wis 19, ki strike +1, FoB: +10 to hit

Assuming crazy PB, massive min/maxing and gear greatly in excess of WBL:

• warblade 3, Str 20, +1 sword: +9 to hit
• monk 3, Dex 18, Wis 20, +1 staff, FoB: +10 to hit

• warblade 5, Str 25 (w/+4 enhancement), +2 sword: +14 to hit
• monk 5, Dex 20 (w/+2 enhancement), Wis 25 (w/+4 enhancement), ki strike +1, FoB: +15 to hit

I don't see a problem here.

[CaptainPlatypus]

So, if I understand correctly, the warblade's attack bonus is +11 (+3 BAB + 8 Str). And for your monk to have a +11 bonus at 3rd level, you must have something on the order of 20 Wis and 18 Dex (+2 BAB, +5 Wis, +4 Dex).

I think there's strength in the argument that ki shot and empty strike could be switched, but it seems to me that the monk/warblade comparison is badly distorted by rolled stats that favored the monk very highly over the warblade.

Assuming the elite array, which is fairly standard for NPC opponents:

• warblade 3, Str 15, mwk sword: +6 to hit
• monk 3, Dex 14, Wis 15, mwk staff, FoB: +5 to hit

• warblade 5, Str 16, +1 sword: +9 to hit
• monk 5, Dex 14, Wis 16, ki strike +1, Fob: +8 to hit

Assuming 32 PB, which would allow an 18 in a primary stat and a 16 in a secondary stat:

• warblade 3, Str 18, mwk sword: +8 to hit
• monk 3, Dex 16, Wis 18, mwk staff, FoB: +8 to hit

• warblade 5, Str 19, +1 sword: +10 to hit
• monk 5, Dex 16, Wis 19, ki strike +1, FoB: +10 to hit

Assuming crazy PB, massive min/maxing and gear greatly in excess of WBL:

• warblade 3, Str 20, +1 sword: +9 to hit
• monk 3, Dex 18, Wis 20, +1 staff, FoB: +10 to hit

• warblade 5, Str 25 (w/+4 enhancement), +2 sword: +14 to hit
• monk 5, Dex 20 (w/+2 enhancement), Wis 25 (w/+4 enhancement), ki strike +1, FoB: +15 to hit

I don't see a problem here.

No particular argument here either. Frankly, I'd be more concerned about its dippability than how much it affects a straight-up game, but that's only a huge problem because everyone ignores the multiclassing rules. Using them as written, there's not really anything wrong.

EDIT: By the way, as written, Versatile Attack lets you apply Dexterity to damage with shuriken/sling attacks. Is this intended?

EDIT 2: Also, Improved Ki Defense is ambiguous as to whether the additional +1 AC bonus it provides counts for the purposes of gaining more advanced IKD and IKS abilities (assuming you somehow have a high enough BAB relative to AC bonus that it matters). It seems to read as if it does, but that seems a bit too good to be true.

[Newt]

No particular argument here either. Frankly, I'd be more concerned about its dippability than how much it affects a straight-up game, but that's only a huge problem because everyone ignores the multiclassing rules. Using them as written, there's not really anything wrong.

EDIT 2: Also, Improved Ki Defense is ambiguous as to whether the additional +1 AC bonus it provides counts for the purposes of gaining more advanced IKD and IKS abilities (assuming you somehow have a high enough BAB relative to AC bonus that it matters). It seems to read as if it does, but that seems a bit too good to be true.

IKD isn't ambiguous (assuming I read it right), you gain +1 AC to your class based AC which is what the feat requires. HOWEVER you need BAB to get that. You could dip to get more BAB, but then you're losing out on Monk abilities. Oh hey, you got a heap of BAB! Too bad you don't have the class AC to use the abilities now.

There's also no +CL so that's another downer for most dips, and the no armor+light load. Even Rogues get light armor, and they don't get the bonus to AC which Monk does. Then there's the alignment restrictions. So any multiclassing is going to be like multiclassing a PHB Paladin. Not much point when most of your class abilities aren't usable. :P And did I mention no +CL?

Could always add in a multiclass note like the PHB Monk has, namely that Monk's aren't allowed to multiclass barring certain feats like Ascetic Knight, but it's not really needed. IMO of course. Could also conflict with Gestalt, but I've never played that so just guessing.

This in addition to allowing dex as the attack and damage stat (free weapon finesse).

Not quite, they qualify as if they have Weapon Finesse, it's isn't actually WF. The feat grants Dex to attack only, not damage. Think of it like Ranger, can qualify for other feats based upon having this one, but the mechanics are a bit off.

[CaptainPlatypus]

Yeah, I'm trying out a monk//swift hunter in a PbP gestalt game, which is when this (and the other edit) came up - I realized that if IKD helped with its own prerequisites, suddenly I could get Roaring by taking IKD at level 12. This is why I don't normally play gestalt - things get weird and cheesey even when you aren't trying - but it's fun to mess around with.

As far as dipping the monk goes, it's probably best suited to swordsages and druids, for the reason you pointed out - I didn't really think about the armor requirement. No complaints whatosever then. :)

[Pechvarry]

So, if I understand correctly, the warblade's attack bonus is +11 (+3 BAB + 8 Str). And for your monk to have a +11 bonus at 3rd level, you must have something on the order of 20 Wis and 18 Dex (+2 BAB, +5 Wis, +4 Dex).

I think there's strength in the argument that ki shot and empty strike could be switched, but it seems to me that the monk/warblade comparison is badly distorted by rolled stats that favored the monk very highly over the warblade.

Assuming the elite array, which is fairly standard for NPC opponents:

• warblade 3, Str 15, mwk sword: +6 to hit
• monk 3, Dex 14, Wis 15, mwk staff, FoB: +5 to hit

• warblade 5, Str 16, +1 sword: +9 to hit
• monk 5, Dex 14, Wis 16, ki strike +1, Fob: +8 to hit

Assuming 32 PB, which would allow an 18 in a primary stat and a 16 in a secondary stat:

• warblade 3, Str 18, mwk sword: +8 to hit
• monk 3, Dex 16, Wis 18, mwk staff, FoB: +8 to hit

• warblade 5, Str 19, +1 sword: +10 to hit
• monk 5, Dex 16, Wis 19, ki strike +1, FoB: +10 to hit

Assuming crazy PB, massive min/maxing and gear greatly in excess of WBL:

• warblade 3, Str 20, +1 sword: +9 to hit
• monk 3, Dex 18, Wis 20, +1 staff, FoB: +10 to hit

• warblade 5, Str 25 (w/+4 enhancement), +2 sword: +14 to hit
• monk 5, Dex 20 (w/+2 enhancement), Wis 25 (w/+4 enhancement), ki strike +1, FoB: +15 to hit

I don't see a problem here.

Instead of asking to see damage comparisons for those levels, perhaps i should ask if damage comparisons already occurred in this thread? Attack being the same isn't so bad if the monk hits like a wuss. But... he doesn't. Likewise, damage potential isn't so bad if you can't expect to get it all the time (low attack rolls is one way, but a better is more situational damage. see: sneak attack). Of course, this is still much ado about nothing (is that how the saying goes?) since things even out better in a few levels.

[Newt]

Instead of asking to see damage comparisons for those levels, perhaps i should ask if damage comparisons already occurred in this thread? Attack being the same isn't so bad if the monk hits like a wuss. But... he doesn't. Likewise, damage potential isn't so bad if you can't expect to get it all the time (low attack rolls is one way, but a better is more situational damage. see: sneak attack). Of course, this is still much ado about nothing (is that how the saying goes?) since things even out better in a few levels.

There's been a few damage comparisons actually. And the really cool thing? They start on the first page.
But we're talking levels 3-5 so this really shouldn't matter. If something is unbalanced between say 5 and 15, then you've got a problem since that's a major adventuring space and a long time for a class to be superior to all. 3-5 not so much

And if you're still not convinced, start comparing them to a Cloistered Cleric or even better, a Planar Shepard.