[3.5] The Monk Remixed

[jiriku]

Sounds solid!

It is my hope that the remixed monk is an effective grappler against at least a substantial minority of opponents. Let me know how it goes.

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I have some questions sent to me via email that I wanted to answer here for the benefit of other readers. So without further ado, a missive from jiriku's inbox!

One thing that I was wondering about was you fix of the Ascetic feats- I like what you did to them, but I am missing somewhere where you say that the Monk can still freely multiclass between the two classes (like the originals) or did you simply pull that in the change?

It is the latter case. The remixed monk has no multiclassing restrictions.

The other question I had was about the Wild Monk Alternate Class Feature from some old Dragon Magazine. It trades Wholeness of Body for Wildshape. The only thing is it is supposed to be delayed until level 6, how would you work this ACF into your remix?

I would need to see the complete text of the feature in order to work it in, but a simple substitution should be appropriate. I would advise DMs to be cautious about allowing such an ACF: trading a modest healing ability for a powerful combat form is a significant upgrade to the monk's power. With natural attacks, ability score improvements, and natural armor bonuses, you can easily find a monk making 6-8 devastating attacks per round and shrugging off most attacks in such a form. However, the increase in versatility gained by having access to flying, swimming, and scouting forms could be a boon in high-powered games where flexible class features are needed to overcome diverse sets of tough challenges. Carefully consider the power level of your game and the skill level of your players before allowing this option.

Finally, could you give me a quick explanation of your improved Ki Strike and Defense? I think I get the basic idea of adding magic enhancements, but I was wondering if you still need to maintain a basic +1 (to enhance magic items as per the rules) or can you eventually add a full +5 worth of enhancement bonuses without needing the generic +1 as well?

You don't need to (and in fact you can't) buy a basic enhancement with the Improved Ki Strike and Improved Ki Defense feats. A monk's body is not really a magic weapon or armor, so you don't need to comply with the usual rules for enchanting weapons and armor. You simply directly select an ability whose prerequisites you meet, without needing a generic +1.

[Hawkat139]

The wild monk gives away a lot more than wholeness of body. Looking at the article in dragon magazine (324) it seems to lose ac bonuses and all bonus feats. It also says that the wild shape from druid and monk do not stack, so if you have both you keep track of the different wild shape separately.

[Hawkat139]

You have the martial monk receives 6 +int for skills rather than 8 +int, whereas the base skills say 10 + int. Which number is right? I know that with all the revisions a typo could just have been left in so I wanted to clarify.

Also, how do Intuitive Strike (BoED) and Empty Strike interact, I would doubt you add double Wis to your attack, but I could be wrong based on the wording meant by "add to attack".
Thanks.

[Metahuman1]

Actually, since that feat forces you to play at Exhaulted Good alignments, and that can be a nightmare difficulty wise to maintain, I'd say go ahead and let it work. You should get something for that kind of trouble.

[jiriku]

You have the martial monk receives 6 +int for skills rather than 8 +int, whereas the base skills say 10 + int. Which number is right? I know that with all the revisions a typo could just have been left in so I wanted to clarify.

Hmmm? Eh, whichever, I don't care. I put that ACF in to silence the "lolwut no full bab?" crowd. None of the players in my campaigns have ever expressed interest in using it.

Also, how do Intuitive Strike (BoED) and Empty Strike interact, I would doubt you add double Wis to your attack, but I could be wrong based on the wording meant by "add to attack".
Thanks.

A remixed monk with Versatile Attack and Empty Strike class features and the Intuitive Strike feat could choose to add Strength to hit and damage and Wisdom to hit, then substitute Wisdom to hit in place of Strength. The result would be to add Wisdom to hit twice and Strength to damage once.

In isolation, I don't see too much of a problem with this (Dex to hit and damage is more optimal, so this is improving a slightly suboptimal path rather than buffing the strongest choice). However, the DM would be well-advised not to consider it in isolation, but to look at how the player is stacking other options. A monk with a base 20 Wisdom who stacks Wis-enhancing and attack-enhancing items, takes the full BAB ACF, adds Intuitive Strike, and then piles on a few more options could reach a point where hitting is guaranteed and the attack roll is merely a formality.

In my campaigns I apply a level-based cap on both PC and NPC bonus totals in order to keep the game within some level of sanity. I don't know whether I have ever published them, though. I can do so if you are interested.

[Metahuman1]

Right, but again, exalted. This is a feat were it takes all of 30 seconds of DM narration to get rid of it for that player character forever. "Woops, that lady you stopped form getting mugged who just left? She's a drug runner and she's evil. You just helped evil. You loose your exalted feats! Tough break."


I have seen this and similar happen many, many times. If were to consider the feat outside of isolation, all well and good, but that really should be taken into account as well.

[jiriku]

Right, but again, exalted. This is a feat were it takes all of 30 seconds of DM narration to get rid of it for that player character forever. "Woops, that lady you stopped form getting mugged who just left? She's a drug runner and she's evil. You just helped evil. You loose your exalted feats! Tough break."


I have seen this and similar happen many, many times. If were to consider the feat outside of isolation, all well and good, but that really should be taken into account as well.

I assume a competent DM in all my work. I don't write for incompetent DMs who want to punish their players. For those players who are fans of my work and are thinking of running my stuff by their current, incompetent DM, I'd advise "fix the DM issue first, THEN introduce homebrew." You can't balance a D&D game effectively with a DM who's out to punish the players for playing. It's impossible. It can't be done. Game balance has to flow from the DM and a DM who treats the game as his own petty tyranny is incapable of managing the game effectively.

TL;DR, if your DM is inclined to take away your exalted feats on a whim, don't recost the feats -- FIRE THE DM.

[Hawkat139]

I would be interested in hearing more about the level cap you mentioned.

Also- Would unarmed strikes count as special monk weapons for combining Ki Shot with the feat Ringing the Golden Bell. The feat allows ranged attacks with unarmed strike for 1+Wis times per day with a range of 5 ft + t ft for each point of Wis bonus

[jiriku]

I would be interested in hearing more about the level cap you mentioned.

Also- Would unarmed strikes count as special monk weapons for combining Ki Shot with the feat Ringing the Golden Bell. The feat allows ranged attacks with unarmed strike for 1+Wis times per day with a range of 5 ft + t ft for each point of Wis bonus

Combining those seems entirely reasonable to me.

I have posted the Power Level write-up

[jiriku]

Reposted from my email correspondence

1. Does the Monk have the same Lawful (unless they take the Chaotic Monk variant) alignment requirement? If so do they follow the normal monk if they change alignment that they can no longer advance as monk?

We don't use alignment at my table, but there's no reason you couldn't keep the monk's alignment requirements.

2. If they have the same alignment restrictions, and they break them, what do you think would happen with multi class feats like Ascetic Hunter? Could advancing in ranger still advance the monk abilities listed in the feat?

Yes, you should still be able to use abilities normally.

3. Wild Monk that I asked about before requires giving up bonus feats at 1,2,and 6 as well as all slow fall progression. Seeing as you added extra bonus feats, does ti seem reasonable those would also be given up for the ACF?

Yes, bonus feats should be granted or forfeited as a package.

4. I like the Ascetic Naturalist since it specifically spells out that Natural weapons count as monk weapons, but with Wild Monk there would be no druid levels to stack, would the feat stack with another wild shape class such as Master of Many forms (for the wild shape improvements only, not exceptional abilities, shifters speech, etc.) ? I doubt it would, but wanted to ask your take.

Levels in classes that increase your druid level for purposes of wildshape, or that stack with your druid level when improving wild shape, will also count appropriately with the Ascetic Naturalist feat. Your wild shape, unarmed strike, etc will advance as the sum of all levels that improve those features.

[Hawkat139]

What would happen to Dance With Elements if you received a boost to fast movement from another class or prestige class? I would guess as you no longer have fast movement per say, but it would stack with the added speed, but not the skill bonus. Just my take though, what would your thoughts be?

[jiriku]

Because the speed bonus from Dance with the Elements is untyped, it stacks with bonuses from all other sources.

[RegalKain]

In seeing that this thread isn't in the necro range, I'd like to say that not only your Fighter, but this Monk especially is simply the default standard at my table, regardless of DM. We have switched over to Pathfinder (And converted the class with us.) and it plays brilliantly. A+ job on it. I'm personally playing one now, our party comp is, Monk, Soulcrafter, Swift Hunter, Soul Weaver (Spheres of Power) the only thing we're really lacking is a healer (Alas I'm only level 4) and so far the party works brilliantly, Soulcrafter is our front line, I act as a skirmisher, hit and run style, the Swift hunter is our resident skill monkey and often fires in from the back lines. Soul Weaver is a cleric-type, this one focused on undead.

I did have a question for you! The Feat Versatile Unarmed Strike, normally lets you choose what type of damage your unarmed strikes do. (Bludgeoning, Piercing, Slashing) I didn't see anything relating to this in the base class (Or if I did, I passed over it several times, my apologies.) Was it intended that the Monk still needs to take this feat to change their damage types? Or no? Thanks!

[Metahuman1]

Point of clarification: Does this monk still require a feat to deal Slashing/Piercing Damage with it's unarmed strikes, or is it able to just do that out of the box?

[Yakk]

AC Bonus: while balanced against Magic Vestment, it isn't an enhancement bonus. Is there an exploit here?

Flurry of Blows: I get what you are trying to do, but listing feats as "it also works with this!" seems silly.

Why not change it to "once per turn when you make an attack, you can make an extra attack as a free action at a -2 penalty based off her full Base Attack Bonus". Don't have it modify the other attacks you make. At 5th it reduces to -1, and at 9th to -0.

Then Greater Flurry becomes "you get two extra attacks".

Dance with the Elements: Are there any competence bonuses to speed in the game? If not, consider making all bonuses here competence bonuses.

Empty Strike: Double-attribute bonus to accuracy. Hmm.

Still Mind: Tiny static bonus. Boring.

Slow Fall: Consider making monks simply not take falling damage if they are adjacent to a wall, and use the amount only when there is no wall nearby.

Ki Shot: Should be a feat.

Tongue of the Sun and Moon: Why not just give Wisdom as a bonus intead of replace?

Timeless Body: Why no lifetime extension?

[Metahuman1]

So, still waiting for that clarification. Just, mentioning.


Anyway, more importantly.




Playtesting Update.


So, the grapple thing continues to go over well. and with the various suggestions and the monk as currently written, I've made an effective knowledge monkey and a very mobile back up scout for out of combat. So far my damage aside form that first fight doesn't seem to be outpacing the party. I've been shown up on that front in the 3 fights we've had since then. First of which was more of the zombies, but with more HP and a new house rule requiring called shots to avoid there DR. This left me capable, but the Druid, Crusader, Barbarian and party's Werewolf were roughly matching me in that regard. And grappling worked quite well again here, and let me set up enemy's effectively, and knowledge let me learn of the call shot thing and point it out to the group. The second fight was a fight against some swarms of ants, and the only thing I could do was hit it with a torch once a round for 1d6 damage only and give the rest of the group information about them and a flanking bonus to hit. (I wasn't useless, but it was defiantly a fight I was not the best suited too in the party.).

The other fight was against some assassin vines and I wound up rolling poorly on attack rolls and not actually hitting it. The Archer, Mage and Barbarian between them took it out in a surprise round + first round of combat however.

So, I have been able to contribute effectively outside of combat on a somewhat regular basis. I've been able to help but on the whole not dominate combat. It is also worth noting I could, if I desired, up my characters game with a couple of feats and some different tactical choices in most but not all of these, if I needed to keep up with a higher op group.

Game has currently moved up to level 7. I now have improved trip and the Knockdown feat form the SRD. Which gives me an added Debuff option and thus another way to run some support for the party.



Finally it is worth noting that I am holding my own against at least one Tome of Battle user, but am not using any Tome of Battle. Which I think is a good thing.


Feed back has been a few cases of "Wait and see." and "oh, ok, that makes sense." and "hey, that was neat." since last update. The general agreement seems to be when the monk isn't getting crazy high rolls and isn't using knowledge devotion, it's no worse then most of the rest of the party. I actually don't think the knowledge devotion was that bad myself, but this party is a bit lower op then I'd originally anticipated, and moving to more of a support roll with grapples and now trips and knowledge checks to learn things about enemy's seems to have fixed there initial concerns. The DM has also mentioned that later down the line the really high damage output I seemed capable of against certain opponents might come in handy, so I don't think he's hit the party hard yet.