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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Actually, if they both have DR/Epic, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that mean that they both also punch through DR/Epic?

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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jiriku
    How about ridiculously large bonuses to Balance, Jump, and Tumble, enabling the monk to hit epic skill DCs in the mid-teens (run up a wall, balance on a blade, dash across a lake, and other wuxia-style actions)
    I support this.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    OK, I've added Dance with the Elements at level 3. This gives the monk a competence bonus to Balance, Jump, and Climb Tumble, equal to his bonus move speed.

    Jump:
    • By level 6, the monk can leap 10 ft up, to strike targets 20 ft above him. This is enough for most high-ceiling rooms and indoor encounter areas.
    • By level 18, the monk can leap 30 ft up. With likely reach, he can tag someone 60 ft above, meaning casters using close-range spells are not safe.

    Balance:
    • By level 6, we're looking at balancing on thin branches and other precrious places.
    • By level 18, the monk can run across dash across the water, stand on surfaces that technically cannot support his weight, even balance on a cloud.

    Tumble:
    • At level 6, not so impressive, but the monk is a proficient tumbler.
    • At level 18, the monk can take 10-ft steps, use tumble to run right up a wall, kip up without devoting a feat to it, even ignore falling damage (which renders slow fall pointless, but as Delb has pointed out, that's probably getting replaced with an ACF anyhow).

    This is going to support several design goals:
    • The monk can use Tumble and Balance to exploit environmental features to gain altitude, then use Jump to cover additional distance in order to strike at flyers. Battle Jump becomes a more attractive feat for him. I could see Hood builds that might use this monk. His Slow Fall feature and improved Tumbling are now more useful, since leaping from ridiculous heights becomes a more viable combat tactic and the monk needs the ability to land without splatting.
    • The monk is even less reliant on gear. The competence bonuses he's getting are better than (and won't stack with) any level-appropriate skill-boosting items he might find, so he's no longer interested in skill-boosters, at least for those three skills.


    I still need something to improve the monk's ranged potential.

    Current capabilities:
    • He can already flurry with shurikens as a standard action.
    • He's Dex-reliant so he'll be fairly accurate.
    • He gets bonus damage from both Dex and Wis on those shuriken.
    • Although they're disposable, shuriken can be enchanted or made from special materials cheaply, since they count as ammunition.
    • If using the Crash Like a Wave, Bend Like a Reed ACF, he's also adding up to 5d6 skirmish damage to his flurried shuriken (or up to 7d6 if he takes the Improved Skirmish feat).
    • Range is quite limited though, even if he takes Far Shot.


    Anyone have any suggestions? Perhaps I could extend the Ki Strike feature and Improved Ki Strike feat to apply to special monk weapons. What impact do you think that would have?
    Last edited by jiriku; 2010-06-22 at 12:26 PM.
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    I like those skill bonii.
    How about some kind of Ki Shot allowing him to launch shuriken a longlonglong way?
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    OK, I've added Dance with the Elements at level 3. This gives the monk a competence bonus to Balance, Jump, and Climb equal to his bonus move speed.

    Jump:
    • By level 6, the monk can leap 10 ft up, to strike targets 20 ft above him. This is enough for most high-ceiling rooms and indoor encounter areas.
    • By level 18, the monk can leap 30 ft up. With likely reach, he can tag someone 60 ft above, meaning casters using close-range spells are not safe.

    Balance:
    • By level 6, we're looking at balancing on thin branches and other precrious places.
    • By level 18, the monk can run across dash across the water, stand on surfaces that technically cannot support his weight, even balance on a cloud.

    Tumble:
    • At level 6, not so impressive, but the monk is a proficient tumbler.
    • At level 18, the monk can take 10-ft steps, use tumble to run right up a wall, kip up without devoting a feat to it, even ignore falling damage (which renders slow fall pointless, but as Delb has pointed out, that's probably getting replaced with an ACF anyhow).

    This is going to support several design goals:
    • The monk can use Tumble and Balance to exploit environmental features to gain altitude, then use Jump to cover additional distance in order to strike at flyers. Battle Jump becomes a more attractive feat for him. I could see Hood builds that might use this monk. His Slow Fall feature and improved Tumbling are now more useful, since leaping from ridiculously heights is now a more viable combat tactic and the monk needs the ability to land without splatting.
    • The monk is even less reliant on gear, as the competence bonuses he's getting are better than (and won't stack with) any level-appropriate skill-boosting items he might find, so he's no longer interested in skill-boosters, at least for those three skills.
    Woah. +60? If you also max out the skill points (although the net benefit of this might be rather less than investing in other skills you don't get this bonus in), that's a total of +81 at 18, before you get into stat, racial, or item-based bonuses. Going up alongside bonus move speed does seem very appropriate, however - how about just half this as a bonus? Also, don't you mean "Balance, Jump and Climb Tumble" (here and on p1)?

    I still need something to improve the monk's ranged potential.

    Current capabilities:
    • He can already flurry with shurikens as a standard action.
    • He's Dex-reliant so he'll be fairly accurate.
    • He gets bonus damage from both Dex and Wis on those shuriken.
    • Although they're disposable, shuriken can be enchanted or made from special materials cheaply, since they count as ammunition.
    • If using the Crash Like a Wave, Bend Like a Reed ACF, he's also adding up to 5d6 skirmish damage to his flurried shuriken (or up to 7d6 if he takes the Improved Skirmish feat).
    • Range is quite limited though, even if he takes Far Shot.


    Anyone have any suggestions? Perhaps I could extend the Ki Strike feature and Improved Ki Strike feat to apply to special monk weapons. What impact do you think that would have?
    I think that would be pretty reasonable.

    Some other suggestions:
    • Dragon mag feat: Ring the golden bell
    • Wands
    • Zen archery feat
    • Alternative monk weapon sets, some including bows (pretty sensible, really).


    Also, see this variant monk class for some other ideas.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    [QUOTE=paddyfool;8759268]Woah. +60? If you also max out the skill points (although the net benefit of this might be rather less than investing in other skills you don't get this bonus in), that's a total of +81 at 18, before you get into stat, racial, or item-based bonuses. Going up alongside bonus move speed does seem very appropriate, however - how about just half this It's MEANT to be big enough to pass epic checks.

    Plus it doesn't stack with items.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    I've created a new feat, The Arrow Knows the Way, which provides access to the longbow as a special monk weapon. I've also added some new bonus feat options so the monk can easily qualify for TAKTW at level 1, and can find some in-class support for acquiring necessary archery feats as he advances in level.

    Ki Shot is a good idea. Still thinking about how to implement it.

    The Zen Archer monk variant has some good gems too. Still considering what to steal.

    @ paddyfool: A +60 bonus is extremely large, it's true. But +Win to Balance, Jump, and Tumble is still less potent than a Fly speed with Perfect maneuverability, which many other classes can access well before level 10. My goal is to enable monks to run up trees, dash across lakes, balance on an opponent's sword blade, and do all the cool stuff you see in wuxia movies like Kill Bill, Hero, or Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. Also, as a design goal I want to compensate for the lack of flight by enabling them to use their amazing mobility to get within jumping distance of low-flying enemies, then leap, flurry attack, and land unharmed.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    I concede the point. (But you still need to fix the bits where it says "Climb" rather than "Tumble").

    Incidentally, I could see a use for a "rare weapon discipline" feat that allows you to gain proficiency with any single one-handed, light, or ranged martial weapon and treat it as a monk weapon.
    Last edited by paddyfool; 2010-06-23 at 11:19 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    This is really good work. I would play this monk.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    @ Merk: Thank you!

    All mistaken instances of "Climb" should now be corrected to "Tumble." OMG it was hard to find them. I need more sleep.

    I have replaced The Arrow Knows the Way with Esoteric Weapons Training, which is essentially the former feat with weapon proficiency thrown in for free, fewer prerequisites, all applicable to a broader class of weapons. It's much better than the Eberron feats involving using an unusual weapon, but honestly those were lousy feats anyway. I am concerned that Esoteric Weapons Training may lead to some genre-clashing situations (e.g. a monk with a cutlass, monk-pirates, yarr!), but I'll leave it to DM discretion to decide when to stomp on any particularly bizarre weapon choices.

    I finally have an idea for Lix's suggestion of the Ki Shot, and will implement this soonKi Shot is now added at 5th level. It allows the monk to expend a use of Stunning Fist to ignore range increment penalties and apply Ki Strike to all ranged attacks made with special monk weapons for 1 round.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2010-06-23 at 01:58 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    i wouldn't give monks the ability to fly, but have you thought about air walk? that's wuxia style...
    Last edited by zugschef; 2010-07-08 at 04:08 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    I disagree with any need for air walk. Epic uses of Balance include running across things that can't support your weight, such as the thin branches at the tops of trees, water, and even clouds. How much more Wuxia does it get?

    EDIT: Incidentally, OP, don't forget to remove the limit of max Jump distance by height.
    Last edited by UserClone; 2010-07-08 at 08:37 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Love this redux.... might play it next time I can....
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Air walk is pretty darn similar to fly.

    @ UserClone: you're thinking of 3.0 Jump rules. 3.5 removed the height limit on jumping.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    How about ridiculously large bonuses to Balance, Jump, and Tumble
    I'm definitely in favour. Perhaps other Skills as well.

    Martial Arts Homebrew is something I am very interested in. Good Job. Perhaps you'd be interested in cooperating on a more extensive Martal Arts Homebrew coverage?

    I suggest splitting the AC bonus into Dodge and Deflect Bonuses and having each of them advance to +5.

    I'd also suggest something I just suggested for a different Homebrew Class:
    Give them the ability to take 10 foot steps instead of just 5 foot steps.

    Also perhaps an ability that allows them to add any damage their DR soaked over the last round to their melee or thrown attacks (distributed as they like) to represent redirecting the energy of their opponents attacks.

    EDIT: I'd also suggest increasing BAB to Full.
    Last edited by Rowanomicon; 2010-07-11 at 01:04 AM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    The 10' step is already built right in! Per Oriental Adventures, a character can move 10' on a 5' step with a DC 40 Tumble check. While OA is 3.0 material, it received a 3.5 update and the option was not removed in the update. Although it's true that most D&D games don't have much of an oriental flavor to them, I'd say OA is certainly a valid resource for a character who's playing a monk, neh?

    At 8th level (when he first acquires an iterative attack), a revised monk with maxed ranks in Tumble and a modest Dexterity of 14 has a +33 Tumble modifier and can make the DC 40 check 70% of the time. By 9th level, his Tumble mod is +44 and he can succeed without rolling even if suffering a -5 penalty for adverse terrain.

    Because really, why are you playing a badass monk if not to flip over some dude's head and then ginsu him into bits?


    Regarding a collaborative effort, I'm far from the best homebrewer on this forum, and I'm not really looking for a project right now, but send me a PM and pitch it to me and we'll see if it's something I could contribute to.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2010-07-11 at 10:07 AM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Just going to randomly pop in here and say that you should at least briefly consider stat boosts... the way I did it with my version was "pick 4 stats when you take your first monk level, at every monk level increase whichever of those is the lowest by 1"... deals with MAD, and goes along with "perfection of mind, body, and spirit". Combined with all your other fixes it might be too much, and you probably already have MAD handled somehow, at least to some extent, but I think that balance is part of the basic idea of a monk, thus this MIGHT be worth undoing some of that.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    I would just like to say that this monk is awesome enough that I'm playing one in a game right now, and (when the dice decide to stop hating me) it's working great. It still doesn't have the same damage output (which may change with the weapon feat) but I hit so much more (or at least, I would if i didn't always roll 2s) It's an excellent class so far, though I'm only lv 6, and haven't gotten to try out all the stuff yet.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    That's cool, I didn't know about the 10' step.
    Admittedly I've never really had extensive access to non-core books.
    In fact it's been a long time since I've used any books.
    I use d20srd.org when I have to look something up.

    I'm not particularly the best homebrewer either, and certainly not compared to what I've seen on this forum.
    That's why I'm looking for help.
    I've asked a couple other people too.
    I'll definitely send you a PM with some of my ideas.

    I like what you've done with the Monk and certainly a good place to start with Martial Arts in D&D.

    EDIT: HAHAHA! I forgot the "not" in "I'm not particularly the best homebrewer either" sorry...
    Last edited by Rowanomicon; 2010-07-13 at 08:04 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    I like what you've done to the Monk. Now he can run around and circles, while at the same time doing flips, on a cloud! And he can jump up to the cloud!
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Quote Originally Posted by NecroticPunch View Post
    I like what you've done to the Monk. Now he can run around and circles, while at the same time doing flips, on a cloud! And he can jump up to the cloud!
    Which is really where it's at!

    Quote Originally Posted by ForzaFiori View Post
    I would just like to say that this monk is awesome enough that I'm playing one in a game right now, and (when the dice decide to stop hating me) it's working great. It still doesn't have the same damage output (which may change with the weapon feat) but I hit so much more (or at least, I would if i didn't always roll 2s) It's an excellent class so far, though I'm only lv 6, and haven't gotten to try out all the stuff yet.
    Wow! I'm excited to hear someone's using it. What can you tell me about your build? What sort of damage have you been scoring, against what types of opponents? Are you using the basic chassis with unarmed strikes, or are you using Crash Like a Wave, Bend Like a Reed with monk weapons?

    Edit: Actually, now that I think about it, I bet I know why your damage is low. You're using all those stock monk feats where you've got to invest in a three-feat chain in order to deal 0.00001 points of extra damage per attack once per day. I've updated my second post with some homebrew variations on classic monk feats. These are the standard feat options for monks in my campaign that I run. Taken with the revised monk, these feats should offer you enough options to deal the same damage the other melee characters are doing. With the right feat selection, you can even rival the damage output of heavy-hitting classes like barbarian, swordsage, and warblade.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2010-07-11 at 06:37 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    It's gestalt, Monk6/Psion6, so a small amount of MAD, though the psion is mainly to get a few long lasting boosts and healing. In the game, each PC and NPC has a template that changes their type (for instance, my character is a human, with an energy template that makes him elemental).

    So far, I've managed to land both attacks off a flurry onto a construct Treant, dealing 18 and 15 damage (getting a +10 or +11 on attack depending on the weapon, and +7 damage, +19 to disarm with a sai due to a houserule that a sai doesn't take a -4 to disarm). Against an ogre, I scored 10 damage, though by this point, the dice decided to hate me. I don't think I've rolled a decent roll in over an encounter, and the one before that wasn't great. Nearly disarmed the ogre earlier, but rolled a 5.

    All in all, at 6th level, I'm the skill-monkey of the group, AND managing attacks of 25-30, and damage of around 20. Disarm attempts should average in the 30s. AC is my only problem, at 16 normally, 22 after a quick power in the mornings. As someone who's tried billions of different monk builds and fixes, I can say that this is easily the best one I've seen so far. The class has a role, and can hit constantly, even if it doesn't always do damage. I can land more hits per round than a fighter, since I can hit with a flurry. He may do 40 damage on a hit, but I do 20 twice. All in all, an excellent fix.

    No idea how good it is against casters though, all we've fought so far have been tanks.

    EDIT: Also, on the feats, you might wanna put a time limit on the fire attack and fire defense ones, or you can blow a use of stunning fist and be surrounded by fire forever.
    Last edited by ForzaFiori; 2010-07-11 at 10:40 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    That does sound pretty solid. When compared to a rogue, scout, or ranger, you're more skilled than the usual scout or ranger, you're dealing better damage than a typical scout, and you're more mobile than most rangers or rogues. AC 22 is actually pretty solid for most ECL 6 characters, especially skirmishers, although it sounds like your group may be facing tougher challenges than usual (I suppose that's par for the course in a gestalt game).

    Against casters, your high saves, high touch AC, and Evasion should make tagging you with a direct attack quite difficult. With good Ref saves, in-class Balance and Escape Artist, and blindsense through the ACF if you took it, you're also well-equipped to overcome the typical CR-appropriate battlefield control spells like grease, web, and glitterdust.

    Keep me posted as you find anything interesting...it's great to hear field reports on the class!
    Last edited by jiriku; 2010-07-11 at 10:51 PM.
    D&D Remix for 3.x: balanced base classes and feats, all in the authentic flavor of the originals. Newest: shadowcaster. Most popular: monk and fighter.

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  24. - Top - End - #54

    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    The class looks amazing. But I think some of the feats are ridiculously overpowered. Specifically, a lot of the "you get more the more IUS feats you have". The fire one, for example, is like Burning Blade++ that doesn't take an action to activate. Now, this would be all well and good on a normal monk, but on your monk they seems too strong.

  25. - Top - End - #55
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Your comparison to burning blade is persuasive. I've modified Fiery Fists to be much more like the burning blade series of maneuvers. Damage will still scale with feat acquisition, but much more slowly now.

    I'm open to reconsidering any of the feat revisions. Many of them have not yet been playtested in my campaign (there are far more than you can tack on a single monk). Do you have specific complaints about any of the other feats?
    Last edited by jiriku; 2010-07-12 at 11:31 AM.
    D&D Remix for 3.x: balanced base classes and feats, all in the authentic flavor of the originals. Newest: shadowcaster. Most popular: monk and fighter.

    Innovative new mid-tier classes compatible with 3.x and 3.x Remix: Machinist, Shapeshifter, Avatar, Magus of Blades, Ritualist, Magician, Dawnblade, Summoner, plus 5 elemental casters!


  26. - Top - End - #56

    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Fiery Defense suffers a bit the same problem as the fists, but it's not as bad.
    Eagle Claw Attack should require an expenditure of stunning fist uses to prevent monks from having passwall at will.
    Improved Ki Strike and Defense are hard to evaluate, especially considering how MAD has been reduced. I don't know.
    I am wary of Flying Kick, and if you can flurry on a charge it will do ridiculous damage. Uberchargers are frowned upon in my opinion.
    I fell that Fists of Iron should require additional Stunning Fist uses as it gets stronger, to keep it in line with Expansion and the like.

    Thats all for now. I'll post more later.

  27. - Top - End - #57
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinydwarfman View Post
    Fiery Defense suffers a bit the same problem as the fists, but it's not as bad.
    Eagle Claw Attack should require an expenditure of stunning fist uses to prevent monks from having passwall at will.
    Improved Ki Strike and Defense are hard to evaluate, especially considering how MAD has been reduced. I don't know.
    I am wary of Flying Kick, and if you can flurry on a charge it will do ridiculous damage. Uberchargers are frowned upon in my opinion.
    I fell that Fists of Iron should require additional Stunning Fist uses as it gets stronger, to keep it in line with Expansion and the like.

    Thats all for now. I'll post more later.
    We may find ourselves disagreeing on this, but I'm concerned that ten years of monk suckage may be subconsciously influencing you here. Looking at your comments:

    Fiery Defense: I think you've got a point here. I'll nerf this one.
    Eagle Claw Attack: a monk could do the same thing with an adamantine club. If a feat can't do half of what a non-magical weapon material does, what can it do?
    Improved Ki Strike and Defense: I agree. Hard to evaluate. They sort of straddle the border between feats and class features.
    Flying Kick: compare to the feat Spirited Charge, or the 1st-level spell rhino's rush. Again, if a feat can't do what a 1st-level spell can do, what can it do?
    Fists of Iron: Again, why is our frame of reference here a 1st-level power? Why not compare this to mighty wallop or greater mighty wallop instead, or even to righteous might or giant size for that matter?

    We've got to get ourselves out of this trap of thinking that a feat should be weaker than a 1st-level spell or a minor piece of gear.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2010-07-12 at 04:51 PM.
    D&D Remix for 3.x: balanced base classes and feats, all in the authentic flavor of the originals. Newest: shadowcaster. Most popular: monk and fighter.

    Innovative new mid-tier classes compatible with 3.x and 3.x Remix: Machinist, Shapeshifter, Avatar, Magus of Blades, Ritualist, Magician, Dawnblade, Summoner, plus 5 elemental casters!


  28. - Top - End - #58
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    As a fan of remakes whose tables look almost exactly like the PHB tables, I approve of this fix.

    Some thoughts you're welcome to ignore:

    I'd still consider lowering their skills to 6+int (as ranger), unless you use a Rogue "fix" in your campaign, as well. Especially with the super-huge skill bonuses, they shouldn't actually need to max those skills. This is pretty low on my priority list of things that should change.

    Oddly, I really like that you kept it medium BAB. The way flurry works, and with you making it function the way it should be (really like the combat reflexes bit, btw), the extra iterative of full BAB is moot. A quick comparison. Standard DPS is (Full BAB + weapon enhancement + Stat). Your monk is (.75 BAB + greater magic weapon values + Stat + WIS). At lower levels, this is actually much more potent than full BAB, though the gap closes as level increases -- though it'll certainly never fall below full BAB unless You're Doing It Wrong™.

    That reminds me -- the bit where players get to add Dex to attack/damage if they choose. I'd consider adding a line about "treat as if they possess Weapon Finesse for meeting prerequisites". On the other hand, Shadow Blade is pretty sick on this class. Up to you if you want the synergy to be that high.

    Diamond Soul not being in the text, I assume it's unchanged except for level obtained?

    Ki Shot class feature requires Stunning Fist uses, which your Monk may or may not possess. This brings me to another issue:

    Wis uses/day can get a bit convoluted with multiple abilities to track. You have wis uses/day of at least 4 different abilities, not to mention Wholeness of Body points to track and Stunning Fist uses to boot.

    Have you considered trying to unify that, some? I don't mean to shove my ideas down your throat, but a method I was intending to implement with my own monks and ninjas is a systemic change:

    Ki Pool
    Characters have a Ki Pool equal to (Monk Level + Ninja Level + 1/4th non-monk/ninja HD + WIS modifier). In theory, all characters have such inner talent, but require the correct class features or feats (usually Stunning Fist) to access it.

    This meshing of Ninja's Ki Pool and the Stunning Fist mechanic means Ninjas gain a lot more Ki uses later on in their career, while Monks gain significantly more in the early parts of their career. Naturally, Stunning Fist uses 1 point per use. From here, you can simply change a lot of Monk's class features to take Ki in varying amounts. Then you can load up the late end of their career with improving previous abilities through the expenditure of additional Ki. For example, 12th level: Abundant Step as a move action and 2 points, 16th: Abundant as a Swift for 3-4 points. And maybe even 20th: Immediate action Abundant Step at an astronomical Ki cost (Abrupt Jaunt doesn't seem bad as a capstone...). Also worthy of note, if you actually use that example, it'd be ideal to limit the character to only 1 Abundant Step/turn.
    Last edited by Pechvarry; 2010-07-12 at 05:18 PM.

  29. - Top - End - #59
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Skills: I'm inclined against changing the skills, but you're the third person to suggest it, so let's talk shop.
    My position is that the revised monk is intended to take its place as a skill monkey alongside the beguiler, rogue, factotum, scout, ninja, expert, and spellthief. Since the monk has Int as a dump stat, I maintain that, like the rogue and scout, he needs 8 skill points per level at a minimum to fill that role. Beguiler, spellthief and factotum have an Int focus and spells to boot, so they can get away with only 6 points per level. Expert and Ninja have 6 points per level without spells or an Int focus, and frankly, the expert is an NPC class for a reason and limited skills is one of the reasons the ninja class sucks. Let us not go down that road.
    So, what's your reasoning behind preferring 6 points per level over 8?

    Base Attack: Thank you for seeing this! Many people don't seem to get it. My approach was "monks have a medium base attack, and don't function in melee. So, let's add class features so that the monk does function in melee with its current attack bonus." You'll also note that every one of the skill monkey classes I mentioned above has a medium base attack bonus as well. And as you've observed, medium base attack + empty strike + flurry >= full base attack in almost every situation, and the ability to flurry on the move puts the monk well ahead of classes like fighter, knight, and paladin in the mobility department -- which is as it should be for a skirmisher.

    Weapon Finesse: I can see how giving virtual Weapon Finesse is helpful for meeting prerequisites. Otherwise you have to spend a feat to no effect. I'll add that in.

    Diamond Soul: Unchanged, but moved to a level at which it's a more level-appropriate benefit.

    Ki Shot: You've got a good point. I may grant stunning fist as an automatic bonus feat and substite another feat at 1st level. Stunning fist is really an iconic monk ability anyhow -- and so many of the splatbooks feats are built around the assumption that you have it.

    Ability Management: Yeah. One of my concerns is that there are a lot of consumables to manage. I specifically don't want to add a new power system like power points or ki points or anything like that. For me, that crosses the line between "revised monk" and "new class that is very monk-like". Also, others have already done psionic monks, ki monks, and martial initiator monks. Those wells have already been tapped, IMO. I'm really aiming for Monk Classic here.

    What I could do is create a menu power, where you have x uses per day of your power and gain additional options for those uses as you advance in level. I've done that a lot with other classes and feel pretty comfortable within that design space. Let me think on this.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2010-07-15 at 09:57 AM.
    D&D Remix for 3.x: balanced base classes and feats, all in the authentic flavor of the originals. Newest: shadowcaster. Most popular: monk and fighter.

    Innovative new mid-tier classes compatible with 3.x and 3.x Remix: Machinist, Shapeshifter, Avatar, Magus of Blades, Ritualist, Magician, Dawnblade, Summoner, plus 5 elemental casters!


  30. - Top - End - #60
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    Skills: I'm inclined against changing the skills, but you're the third person to suggest it, so let's talk shop.
    My position is that the revised monk is intended to take its place as a skill monkey alongside the beguiler, rogue, factotum, scout, ninja, expert, and spellthief. Since the monk has Int as a dump stat, I maintain that, like the rogue and scout, he needs 8 skill points per level at a minimum to fill that role. Beguiler, spellthief and factotum have an Int focus and spells to boot, so they can get away with only 6 points per level. Expert and Ninja have 6 points per level without spells or an Int focus, and frankly, the expert is an NPC class for a reason and limited skills is one of the reasons the ninja class sucks. Let us not go down that road.
    So, what's your reasoning behind preferring 6 points per level over 8?
    No reason. You just converted me.

    Ability Management: Yeah. One of my concerns is that there are a lot of consumables to manage. I specifically don't want to add a new power system like power points or ki points or anything like that. For me, that crosses the line between "revised monk" and "new class that is very monk-like". Also, others have already done psionic monks, ki monks, and martial initiator monks. Those wells have already been tapped, IMO. I'm really aiming for Monk Classic here.

    What I could do is create a menu power, where you have x uses per day of your power and gain additional options for those uses as you advance in level. I've done that a lot with other classes and feel pretty comfortable within that design space. Let me think on this.
    I understand what you're saying -- that it's frighteningly similar to Power Points, for instance. But I think what you're considering doing in its place is pretty similar in function, if not form: X uses of Abundant Step that you can instead use to go Ethereal instead. Might be easy to grant them Stunning Fist and simply have everything based off of Stun uses.

    As-is, at least you're using the same formula for it. It kinda bothers me when I see homebrew stuff where there'll be stuff like "you can use it 3+Cha times/day..." and then another ability that you can use "a number of times per day equal to half your levels in this class + your cha mod" so now you have an ability that's 3+cha times/day and another that'll end up 10+cha, and it just gets hard to keep track of what and suddenly you're adding 3+cha to damage instead of just cha or what-have-you. yours is a pretty simple Wis times/day min 1. Write it on your character sheet like spells per level and you're good to go.
    Last edited by Pechvarry; 2010-07-13 at 01:16 AM.

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