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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    We may find ourselves disagreeing on this, but I'm concerned that ten years of monk suckage may be subconsciously influencing you here. Looking at your comments:

    Fiery Defense: I think you've got a point here. I'll nerf this one.
    Eagle Claw Attack: a monk could do the same thing with an adamantine club. If a feat can't do half of what a non-magical weapon material does, what can it do?
    Improved Ki Strike and Defense: I agree. Hard to evaluate. They sort of straddle the border between feats and class features.
    Flying Kick: compare to the feat Spirited Charge, or the 1st-level spell rhino's rush. Again, if a feat can't do what a 1st-level spell can do, what can it do?
    Fists of Iron: Again, why is our frame of reference here a 1st-level power? Why not compare this to mighty wallop or greater mighty wallop instead, or even to righteous might or giant size for that matter?

    We've got to get ourselves out of this trap of thinking that a feat should be weaker than a 1st-level spell or a minor piece of gear.
    Eagle Claw: True, but the sheer amount of hardness that it pierces is daunting. The fact that an Iron wall has Hardness 8 makes the fact that you get to pierce like hardness 50 pretty fast is weird. The scaling mechanic is almost completely unnecessary, and too fast. If you want it pierce everything, just say that it pierces everything.

    Flying Kick: This is just my opinion, but those are badly designed. Straight up doubling should almost never be used. They are balanced if you take 1 attack, not an entire flurry. Ridiculous damage ensues. I think when you use it it should impose some kind of a penalty, like a -5 to attack or something.

    Fists of Iron: This is true... I tend not to like to compare to spell, because then we end up with feat-form celerity, but this is true. IMO, Greater Mighty Wallop is overpowered, but I guess you do have to wait until higher levels until you can use it. Just make sure that it cannot stack with itself.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Well, I can see your point on Eagle Claw. There really isn't much in the game that has hardness greater than 20. Conversely, there ought to be a place in that progression at which the monk can bypass hardness on boards, but not steel bars. I'll cut it to a five-point progression, include a bump for ki strike (adamantine), and make it uncapped after 20. I gotta admit there really probably aren't many situations where you're facing a hardness of 30+.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2010-07-13 at 04:41 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    I really like this class... I find it to be the salvation of the monk that isn't:

    "Unarmed Swordsage go go go."

    However, I did have a problem with the Dance of the Elements. In many of the games I've been apart of, skill-monkey's win, and having a flat enhancement to your Jump, Tumble and Balance that's larger then most people will ever see seems a little ridiculous. Pumping full skill points into it you would be able to do epic skill uses at level 9. Seems a little too powerful.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    You are spot on - the revised monk is a very good skill monkey. If the DM offers challenges in which skillmonkeys will win, then the monk is going to do some winning.

    As for the epic DC's, what is your concern about them? Is the word "epic" that's got you disturbed? Because this is what epic skill DCs allow you to do:
    • walk on water
    • run up walls
    • hover
    • stand up quickly
    • fall off a cliff and not get hurt


    Last time I checked, a 5th-level cleric or wizard can duplicate every single one of those effects. "Epic" skill uses aren't really very epic.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Agreed. In fact, jiriku, i'd say that the skill bonus is probably my favorite revision. The thing about epic skill usage that kills me (besides the fact you already pointed out - namely, that magic does it better and waaaaay sooner), is the simple fact that very few characters will ever see epic play. This gives these fun abilities the chance to stretch their collective muscles and get some actual use for a change. I support that.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Hmmm, I think I smell a revised rogue in here somewhere, one that gets a version of skill mastery that does something slightly outrageous like doubling the effect of skill ranks....hmmm, I must think on this.

    Edit:
    I've reformatted the entire OP to make it more readable. For those who are actually using the revised monk in your games, it should be a lot easier to use the OP to play by without having the have the Player's Handbook open right next to you for reference.

    Edit Edit: Created an Ascetic Naturalist feat supporting a druid-monk multiclass, at the suggestion of Fitz10019. Thanks for the excellent suggestion, Fitz!
    Last edited by jiriku; 2010-10-29 at 02:01 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    I am concerned that Esoteric Weapons Training may lead to some genre-clashing situations (e.g. a monk with a cutlass, monk-pirates, yarr!), but I'll leave it to DM discretion to decide when to stomp on any particularly bizarre weapon choices.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wushu_dao.jpg

    You recognise that yea? That pose with that type of sword has been in plenty of movies, used in an RL martial arts too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Changquan

    Cutless is a sabre, same as Dao.

    Yarr or ... Whatever ninjas say when they do their equivalent of a lunge. Maybe laugh madly for effect.


    Nice revision though, it's instantly recognizable as a core Monk, but effective. And the ability to flurry on the move is sweet. :D Actually fits my idea of where Monk should be, up there with a Rogue for tumbling around being awesome. Well done

    I am so using it as a Chang Quan monk, would work brilliantly. Still like Two-Bladed Sword, but a cutlass Dao is fine.


    One thing with the description, Quivering Palm spoiler box has the Empty Step text and Empty Step has half of some text from something. For when you're in an editing mood.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pechvarry View Post
    I understand what you're saying -- that it's frighteningly similar to Power Points, for instance. But I think what you're considering doing in its place is pretty similar in function, if not form: X uses of Abundant Step that you can instead use to go Ethereal instead. Might be easy to grant them Stunning Fist and simply have everything based off of Stun uses.
    I'm having this debate on another thread at the moment.

    With Ki as the focus for all of a Monks abilities, but the Monk not focused around gaining Ki, you start to lose bad.

    A Psion uses PSP's, but the entire point of their existence is gaining PSP's, not hitting people. A Monk that uses Ki for its core abilities will reach a point early on where it novas and dies. And we don't want to do that to our poor Monk.

    Compare the core Monk to a Rogue, instead of Sneak Attack to boost dagger damage, they gain unarmed damage, instead of pursuing the TWF tree (because why wouldn't you?) they gain Flurry of Blows. Skill wise, 3E had the right idea with 5 skill points, as a Human that gets you to 6. Rogues are still charmers and Assassins with their Int/Cha focus, so there's still room for them. Monks just wuxia the hell out of the place instead of wearing black and quick drawing a dagger. :P

    But yea, helps if you think of Monks as Rogues, Rangers as Ninjas, etc. Variants, but the same fuzzy and lovable base class underneath.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Good catch. I'm still running playtests on this class, and I still consider it a WIP, but so far the results have been pretty satisfactory.

    I see a lot of people who compare the monk to the fighter and try to push it in that direction, but to me it seems obvious that the monk is a skillful class, more like the rogue or ninja (as you pointed out). Monks are famous for feats of mobility, insight, and dexterity, not for grouping up into armies and conquering their neighbors.

    Playtest results so far have shown the monk to be a highly mobile striker able to contribute well in running battles, sneak about stealthily, or perform the occasional feat of impressive martial arts (punch down a door or make a standing leap to the top of a wall).

    Keep the feedback coming, as I'm always tinkering with this class and revising it bit by bit!
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    I'm currently working with this class in a gestalt game (Mixed with a psion), and it is doing amazing. It doesn't put out as much damage as a fighter or anything like that, but has an attack modifier that is through the roof. This is a really well made class
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Hello.

    I've stumbled upon this thread today and checked it thoroughly. From my limited and subjective view, this is a great implementation and I can't wait to try it out.

    What could I add to this...
    Martial arts styles as an optional addition? Along the lines of the ones listed in OA.
    Or something like this.


    A few additional feats could help the class too.
    Here are some that looked fitting:

    There is a trio of similar skills, one of which was listed by you - Flying Kick.
    As others had pointed out, double the damage seems somewhat overpowered, maybe it could be modified and/or mixed together with the following:

    Battle Jump
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    You know how to launch a devastating attack from above by dropping onto your opponent.

    Benefit: You can execute a charge by simply dropping from a height of at least 5 feet above your opponent. For example, a ledge 10 feet above the floor of a cavern would suffice for jumping on a Medium-sized creature, while a ledge 15 feet high is required for a jumping on a Large creature. You can't jump from more than 30 feet above your opponent, nor can you effectively battle jump while under the influence of a fly or levitate spell or effect, as you have to hurl yourself down on your foe.
    If you hit, you can choose either to deal double damage with a melee weapon or natural attack or to attempt a trip attack. You are treated as one size category larger than normal if you try to trip your opponent with the battle jump. After you attack, you take falling damage as normal for the distance you jumped. You are entitled to a Jump check (DC 15) to take less damage, as if you had fallen 10 feet less than you actually did. If you fail this Jump check, you fall prone 5 feet from your opponent.
    You can also use Battle Jump to begin a grapple attempt instead of making a normal attack. If you do, you are treated as one size category larger than normal for the first grapple check following the battle jump.
    Normal: Anybody can try to jump down on an enemy, but it is not considered a charge, and they do not gain double damage or the size bonus for the ensuing attack.

    Leap Attack
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    You can combine a powerful charge and a mighty leap into one devastating attack.

    Prerequisite: Jump 8 ranks, Power Attack.

    Benefit: You can combine a jump with a charge against an opponent. If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump, and you end your jump in a square from which you threaten your target, you can double the extra damage dealt by your use of the Power Attack feat.
    If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from Power Attack.
    This attack must follow all the normal rules for using the Jump skill and for making a charge, except that you ignore rough terrain in any squares you jump over.

    So, what if the modified feat only doubles the damage added by Power Attack usage? Together with a two-handed fighting style (hammer fist) it would be multiplied by 3.
    Plus keep the option of exchanging the extra damage in favor of trip attack (like in Battle Jump).
    Call it something like Mantis Leap.

    Hammer Fist
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    You are trained in an unarmed fighting style that emphasizes two-handed strike.

    Prerequisite: Str 13, Improved Unarmed Strike
    Benefit: You may make a single unarmed attack with both hands to add 1-1/2 your Strength bonus on the damage roll. This extra damage does not
    apply if you make a flurry of blows attack or you are holding anything in either hand.


    Snap Kick
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    You have continued to hone your unarmed combat skills, and you deal more damage with your unarmed strikes.

    Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +6.

    Benefit: When you make a melee attack with one or more melee weapons (including a standard attack, full attack, or even a strike maneuver), you can make an additional attack at your highest attack bonus. This attack is an unarmed attack that deals damage equal to your base unarmed attack damage + 1/2 your Str bonus. You take a -2 penalty on all attack rolls you make this round.


    Superior Unarmed Strike
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    Your unarmed strikes have become increasingly deadly, enabling you to strike your foes in their most vulnerable areas.

    Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +3.

    Benefit: You deal unarmed damage as a monk four levels higher.


    Versatile Unarmed Strike
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    You employ a variety of unarmed fighting styles, allowing you to alter the type of damage your attacks deal.

    Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike

    Benefit: As a swift action, you can opt for your unarmed strikes to deal your choice of bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage. Once you make this choice, your unarmed strikes continue to deal the chosen damage type until you use another swift action to change it.


    Acrobatic Strike
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    Your dexterous maneuvers and skilled acrobatics allow you to slip past a foe's defenses and deliver an accurate strike against him.

    Prerequisite: Tumble 12 ranks

    Benefit: If you succeed in using Tumble to avoid an opponent's attack of opportunity, you gain a +4 bonus on the next attack that you make against that foe as long as the attack occurs before the end of your current turn.


    Knock-Down
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    Your mighty blows can knock foes off their feet.

    Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +2, Improved Trip, Str 15+.

    Benefit: Whenever you deal 10 or more points of damage to your opponent in melee, you may make a trip attack as a free action against the same target.

    Errata-ed: Use of this feat cannot be combined with Improved Trip to generate an extra attack, and successful use of this feat does not grant an extra attack through the Cleave or Great Cleave feats.


    Snatch Arrows
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    You are adept at grabbing incoming arrows, as well as crossbow bolts, spears, and other projectile or thrown weapons.

    Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +3, Deflect Arrows, Dex 15+, Improved Unarmed Strike.

    Benefit: You must have at least one hand free (holding nothing) to use this feat. When using the Deflect Arrows feat, you may catch the weapon instead of just deflecting it. Thrown weapons such as spears or axes can be thrown back at the original attacker as an immediate free action or kept. Projectile weapons such as arrows or bolts can be fired back normally on your next turn or later, if you possess the proper kind of bow or crossbow.


    Choke Hold
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    You have learned the correct way to apply pressure to render an opponent unconscious.

    Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Stunning Fist.

    Benefit: If you pin your opponent while grappling and maintain the pin for 1 full round, at the end of the round your opponent must make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 +1/2 your level + your Wisdom modifier). If the saving throw fails, your opponent falls unconscious for 1d3 rounds.


    Defensive Strike
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    You can turn a strong defense into a powerful offense.

    Prerequisite: Int 13+, Expertise, Dex 13+, Dodge.

    Benefit: If an opponent attacks you and misses while you are using the total defense action, you can attack that opponent on your next turn with a +4 bonus on your attack roll. You gain no bonus against an opponent that does not attack you or against an opponent that attacks and does not miss.


    Defensive Throw
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    You can use your opponent's weight, strength, and momentum against her, deflecting her attack and throwing her to the ground.

    Prerequisite : Dex 13+, Improved Unarmed Strike, Dodge, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes.

    Benefit: If the opponent you have chosen to receive your AC bonus from the Dodge feat attacks you and misses, you can make an immediate improved trip attack against that opponent. This attempt counts against your allowed attacks of opportunity this round.


    Falling Star Strike
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    You have mastered the art of striking a nerve that blinds a humanoid opponent.

    Prerequisites : Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +4 or higher, Stunning Fist, Wis 17+.

    Benefit: Against a humanoid opponent, you can make an unarmed attack that has a chance of blinding your target. if your attack is successful, your target must attempt a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 your level + your Wisdom modifier).
    If the target fails this saving throw, he is blinded for 1 round per level you possess. In addition to the obvious effects, a blinded creature suffers a 50% miss chance in combat (all opponents have full concealment), loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, grants a +2 bonus on attackers' attack rolls (they are effectively invisible), moves at half speed, and suffers a -4 penalty on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skills.

    Should most likely count as 1 usage of stunning fist.


    Grappling Block
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    You can catch and pin an opponent's weapon with your bare hands.

    Prerequisite : Improved Unarmed Strike, Deflect Arrows, Int 13+, Expertise, Improved Disarm, Combat Reflexes.

    Benefit: You must have both hands free or be holding weapons designed to catch other weapons to use this feat. Once per round when you would normally be hit by a melee weapon, you may make a special disarm attempt against your opponent. This attempt counts against your allowed attacks of opportunity this round. You make an opposed attack roll (with your unarmed strike, sai, or jitte) against the attack roll that hit you. The opponent's attack roll is not modified by the size of the weapon. If you succeed, you grab the weapon away from your opponent (if you are unarmed) or knock the weapon to the ground (if you are armed). You may only use this feat against weapons up to two sizes larger than you.

    Deflect Arrows requirement seems excessive here.


    Prone Attack
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    You attack from a prone position without penalty.

    Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +2 or higher, Dex 15+, Lightning Reflexes.

    Benefit: You can make an attack from the prone position and suffer no penalty on your attack roll. If your attack roll is successful, you may regain your feet immediately as a free action. Opponents gain no bonus on melee attacks against you while you are prone.


    Unbalancing Strike
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    You can strike a humanoid opponent's joints to knock your target off balance.

    Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Wis 15+.

    Benefit: Against a humanoid opponent, you can make an unarmed attack that has a chance of unbalancing your target, if your attack is successful, you deal normal damage and your target must attempt a Reflex saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 your level + your Wisdom modifier). If the target fails this saving throw, he is thrown off balance for 1 round, losing any Dexterity bonus to AC and giving attackers a +2 bonus on their attack rolls.

    Also as 1 stunning fist attack?


    Deft Opportunist
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    You refuse to give into death while your comrades still depend on you.

    Prerequisites: Combat Reflexes, Dex 15

    Benefit: If you begin your turn adjacent to a foe who did not attack you in the last round, you may immediately make an attack of opportunity against that foe.


    Elusive target
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    Trying to land a blow against you can be a maddening experience.

    Prerequisite: Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +6

    Benefit: The Elusive Target feat enables the use of three tactical maneuvers. Negate Power Attack: To use this maneuver, you must designate a specific foe to be affected by your Dodge feat. If that foe uses the Power Attack feat against you, the foe gains no bonus on the damage roll but still takes the corresponding penalty on the attack roll. Diverting Defense: To use this maneuver, you must be flanked and you must designate one of the flanking attackers to be affected by your Dodge feat. The first attack of the round from the designated attacker automatically misses you and may strike the other flanking foe instead; the attacking creature makes an attack roll normally, and its ally is considered flatfooted. If the designated attacker is making a full attack against you, its second and subsequent attacks function normally. Cause Overreach: To use this maneuver, you must provoke an attack of opportunity from a foe by moving out of a threatened square. If the foe misses you, you can make a free trip attempt against this foe, and the foe does not get a chance to trip you if your attempt fails.


    Deadly Defense
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    You are at your most dangerous when forced to protect yourself.

    Benefit: When fighting defensively, you deal an extra 1d6 points of damage with any light weapon or with any weapon to which the Weapon
    Finesse feat applies (such as a rapier, spiked chain, or whip).
    This feat’s benefit applies only when you are unarmored or wearing light armor and not using a shield.

    Special: If you have the Combat Expertise feat, you also gain the benefit of Deadly Defense when taking a penalty of at least –2 on your attack roll from that feat.


    Melee Evasion
    Spoiler
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    Your speed, agility, and talent for intelligent fighting allow you to avoid your opponent's blows. You take careful stock of an opponent and slip away from his sword blow just as he commits to the attack.

    Prerequisite: Combat Expertise, Dodge, DEX 13, INT 13

    Benefit: While fighting defensively, you can attempt to negate a single attack made by the target of your Dodge feat. If this opponent attacks you, use an immediate action to make a d20 roll modifi ed by your highest base attack bonus. The result is used as your normal AC and touch AC against that single, specifi c attack from your opponent. You cannot use this feat if your Dexterity bonus to AC does not apply against your opponent's attack.


    Feign Weakness
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    You capitalize on your foe’s perceptions of your unarmed status.

    Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +2, Improved Unarmed Strike.

    Benefit: If you make a successful Bluff check against your opponent’s Sense Motive check, you lure the foe into attempting an attack of opportunity because he thinks you are unarmed. But you are armed, and you make your attack against your drawnout foe who is caught flat-footed, before he takes his attack of opportunity.
    You also may attempt this feat with a Tiny or Small weapon with which you are proficient by attempting to hide it until the last second, but you incur a –2 or –6 penalty on your Bluff check, respectively. You can use this feat with a disguised weapon, such as a war fan, at no penalty on the Bluff check.

    Errata-ed: Using Feign Weakness is a standard action, just like a feint, except that if you succeed you get to make your attack immediately. You can only Feign Weakness once per encounter. After one use, your opponents are too wary to fall for this maneuver again.


    Pulverize foe
    Spoiler
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    You enjoy smashing your opponents into submission.

    Prerequisites: Str 15, base attack bonus +6, proficient with bludgeoning melee weapon.

    Benefit: If you hit the same enemy more than once in a single round with a bludgeoning melee weapon, you deal an extra 1d6 points of bludgeoning damage with each hit after the first.



    The alternative class feature from Dungeonscape seems nicely fitting too.

    Alternative Class Feature: Wall Walker
    Spoiler
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    You have the uncanny ability to travel along vertical surfaces for a short time.

    Level: 4th.

    Replaces: If you select this alternative class feature, you do not gain the slow fall ability.

    Benefit: Beginning at 4th level, as a move action, you can run up or down a vertical surface a total distance of 20 feet without making a Climb check. You add 10 feet to this distance at 6th level and every two levels thereafter, up to your maximum speed. You can use this ability only once per round (so you can’t make a double move up or down a wall).
    If you do not reach the top of the vertical surface or find a suitable hand- or foothold, you must make a Climb check appropriate to the surface. If you succeed on the check, you can use this ability again in the next round.
    Otherwise, you fall or make no progress, as determined by the check result.
    You can’t use this ability to traverse a ceiling or overhang.


    Aaand another one:

    Prayerful Meditation
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    Your religious convictions protect you from the spells and
    magical abilities of those who oppose your beliefs.

    Level: 3rd.

    Replaces: This benefit replaces the still mind class
    feature.

    Benefit: Your adherence to a religious path has developed
    in you a resistance to antithetical magic. You gain a +2 bonus
    on saving throws against spells and effects from chaotic-
    aligned creatures and creatures with a moral (good/evil)
    alignment component opposite to yours. This is a super*
    natural ability.




    Edit: Also, there was something that added Wis modifier to the number of AoO, but I can't find it now.
    And something about the hands that can make them deal any of the 3 damage types: slashing, bludgeoning or piercing.

    May I suggest making the innate speed bonus the monks have stack with enhancement speed bonus somehow?
    Last edited by huyche; 2011-02-18 at 04:20 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Why does it have two different abilities called Empty Body in the text, one of which is called Empty Mind in the table?

    ...also you still don't mention lawfulness on the class, despite me mentioning it in the first post that wasn't you.
    Oh, it is implied by the Ex-Monk bit though. May I request/beg an ACF that allows you to be nonlawful, and changes your DR at 20th level to match?
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Why does it have two different abilities called Empty Body in the text, one of which is called Empty Mind in the table?
    I believe the first one is supposed to be called 'AC Bonus (Ex)'.


    Isn't it implied that monks should be lawful? And anyway, ex-monks still retain all of their abilities.
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    A monk's training requires strict discipline. Only those who are lawful at heart are capable of undertaking it.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Implied, but not stated.

    Student of Chaos

    Prerequisites: About to take their first level of Monk, chaotic alignment.
    Benefit: May treat all references to Lawful in the Monk class as instead reading Chaotic. In addition, they may take the feat Axiomatic Strike as Anarchic strike, dealing their bonus damage to lawful creatures or those with DR/chaotic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    Why does it have two different abilities called Empty Body in the text, one of which is called Empty Mind in the table?

    ...also you still don't mention lawfulness on the class, despite me mentioning it in the first post that wasn't you.
    Oh, it is implied by the Ex-Monk bit though. May I request/beg an ACF that allows you to be nonlawful, and changes your DR at 20th level to match?
    Wow, how have I overlooked that typo for 10 months? It's fixed now. And the option for variant alignment and thus varied damage reduction is added, because Lix is a sweetie. Lixie... you can pay me later.


    @ Huyche: I actually have a rather large collection of new and modified feats that I use in my own games. However, it clocks in at over 25 pages, so it's really beyond the scope of this class to post the entire thing. Instead, when I post a homebrew class, I just toss in an appetizer of a handful of my custom feats that are most relevant to the class at hand. I put more than the usual number in this thread because a) this was my first base class attempt and I was kind of feeling around in the dark, and b) monk-related feats are so consistently godawful that I couldn't in good conscience revise the monk and yet leave the community with the expectation that they should rely on those trash feats.

    However, I agree with where you're coming from, that any comprehensive rebalance of the game ultimately needs to include a rebalance of several hundred badly balanced feats in order for the overhaul to be complete.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Student of Chaos
    Prerequisites: About to take their first level of Monk, chaotic alignment.
    Benefit: May treat all references to Lawful in the Monk class as instead reading Chaotic. In addition, they may take the feat Axiomatic Strike as Anarchic strike, dealing their bonus damage to lawful creatures or those with DR/chaotic.
    Chaos Monk (DR335 p88)
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    Alignment: any Lawful any Chaotic

    Class Abilities

    Flurry of Blows Greater Flurry Flailing Strike
    When making a Full Round Attack with either Unarmed Strike or a Kata (i.e., special monk) weapon, the Chaos Monk has the option of taking the listed Penalty to hit (initially –2, reduced to –1 at 5th level, and becoming –0 at 9th level) to receive a random number of extra attacks.
    1d4-1 at 1st
    1d4 at 5th
    1d6-1 at 10th
    1d6 at 15th

    Purity of Body Erratic Advance
    When charging, the Chaos Monk’s target is Dazed for 1 round (Will Neg, DC = 10 + Chaos Monk class level). Usable Wisdom modifier times per day (min 1).
    Wholeness of Body Displacing Stance
    When active, attacks on the Chaos Monk have a 20% Miss Chance at 7th level and a 50% at 12th level. Activating this ability is a Standard Action and it can be used (˝ Chaos Monk class level) rounds per day (not necessarily consecutive).
    Ki Strike (lawful) Ki Strike (chaotic)
    Diamond Body Freedom of Thought
    If the Chaos Monk fails a Will save vs. a Mind-Affecting effect, he/she may immediately reroll the save, though the second roll must be kept. Usable 1/day.
    Perfect Self Anarchic Self
    As Perfect Self, but the Chaos Monk gains the (chaotic) subtype.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    Wow, how have I overlooked that typo for 10 months? It's fixed now. And the option for variant alignment and thus varied damage reduction is added, because Lix is a sweetie. Lixie... you can pay me later.
    Yaaaaaaay! What currencies do you accept?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    It's like the feng shui version of an orbital death laser.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    For Dance of the Elements, was it necessary that you gave level three characters a +10 bonus on four skill checks?

    I mean, I read your notes, but that still doesn't make any sense to me. Tumble is an incredibly powerful skill, allowing you to entirely invalidate entire builds focused on Attacks of Opportunity. I agree with giving monks the option of being really good at Tumble, but +10 at level three? And plus +60 at level eighteen? That is something I cannot agree with. At level nine, they can move without provoking attacks of opportunity without a chance of failure, without any Dexterity modifier, ranks in the skill, or circumstance bonii.

    As a suggestion: it seems reasonable to let monks gain Abundant Step at will at higher levels.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    It's instead of giving them fly. They can hit Epic skill DCs in mid teen levels and thus walk on clouds.
    Functional AND elegant.

    Oh, could I recommend an addition to Improved Ki-Strike?
    'If you have Versatile Unarmed Strike, you may choose the Keen enhancement, which functions as long as you deal slashing or piercing damage.'

    Edit: I'd also request Ki Blast get a boost/rewrite. Because awesome.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    It's instead of giving them fly. They can hit Epic skill DCs in mid teen levels and thus walk on clouds.
    Functional AND elegant.
    Invalidating an entire build is hardly elegant. Also, they cannot walk on clouds even with this bonus. Walking on clouds is a DC 120 Balance check, which, even at higher level, is incredibly unlikely to happen unless they are level twenty or have items that boost their Balance check.

    And it honestly isn't a replacement for fly, or an effective one, at the very least. Long jump is a number of feet equal to the check, which is nice, but not fly. It is like fly, if one had to come down every round, and couldn't fly up very high. Honestly, the highest they are going to get with it at mid levels is +60, and that is with a bit of optimization. If they do reach that, they are going up 15 feet. Which honestly isn't that much. A caster with Fly can fly at 60 feet per round in any direction.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Quote Originally Posted by unosarta View Post
    For Dance of the Elements, was it necessary that you gave level three characters a +10 bonus on four skill checks?

    I mean, I read your notes, but that still doesn't make any sense to me. Tumble is an incredibly powerful skill, allowing you to entirely invalidate entire builds focused on Attacks of Opportunity. I agree with giving monks the option of being really good at Tumble, but +10 at level three? And plus +60 at level eighteen? That is something I cannot agree with. At level nine, they can move without provoking attacks of opportunity without a chance of failure, without any Dexterity modifier, ranks in the skill, or circumstance bonii.

    As a suggestion: it seems reasonable to let monks gain Abundant Step at will at higher levels.
    Have a look up the thread, and you'll find this has already been discussed:

    @ paddyfool: A +60 bonus is extremely large, it's true. But +Win to Balance, Jump, and Tumble is still less potent than a Fly speed with Perfect maneuverability, which many other classes can access well before level 10. My goal is to enable monks to run up trees, dash across lakes, balance on an opponent's sword blade, and do all the cool stuff you see in wuxia movies like Kill Bill, Hero, or Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. Also, as a design goal I want to compensate for the lack of flight by enabling them to use their amazing mobility to get within jumping distance of low-flying enemies, then leap, flurry attack, and land unharmed.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Quote Originally Posted by paddyfool View Post
    Have a look up the thread, and you'll find this has already been discussed:
    Except this entirely invalidates the rest of the class as anything but extra, and makes it just dip-material. "Monk twenty? Psha, I am going monk 3/Swordsage 17". Honestly, they would gain more benefit from that three level dip and bonus than this class does. The rest of the class A) isn't able to do many character roles/types well (which is also a fault of the original monk), and B) doesn't have many combat options.

    "I can melee attack with my fists. I can melee attack with my fists. I can spend a standard action to do several melee attacks with my fists. I can shoot my fists? How does that work? I can Dim Door, but that is an inherently weak spell, especially considering that it can't even really account for mobility in this case, since I is a melee attacker. I can use a SoD a few times per day, but using Fortitude, the highest monster save, and if they make it they face no repercussions, and I can't even use it on them again. I can go ethereal. Woo. No combat change, I am still fighting with my fists, and I can't even attack now. Once per encounter, I can add my monk levels to anything. Still no combat change. I gain damage reduction. Still no change."

    All of the interesting combat features come at low levels. Actually, let's just look at the first three levels. You gain: Two bonus feats, Flurry of Blows, Wis to AC, Trapfinding, Unarmed Strike, Evasion, Empty Strike, Still Mind, +10 Movement speed, +10 to Tumble, Jump, and Balance checks.

    This is literally, probably the most dippable class I have yet to see. None of the higher level abilities encourage interesting combat options. I would have no reason at all to stay in this class past level three. It retains one of the main problems of the original monk.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    All of the interesting combat features come at low levels. Actually, let's just look at the first three levels. You gain: Two bonus feats, Flurry of Blows, Wis to AC, Trapfinding, Unarmed Strike, Evasion, Empty Strike, Still Mind, +10 Movement speed, +10 to Tumble, Jump, and Balance checks.
    That unfortunately is true. Move DwtE higher? 6th level?
    Leaving the usual tasty things available to those taking only the few first monk levels.
    Anyway, isn't the whole 'I take 1 level in something to reap a couple of great bonuses' issue inherent to the majority of (prestige) classes? But I got your point that this revision makes it one of the more attractive ones to do so.

    On a semi-related note I wanted to share this monkly prestige class, as the first 7 levels of it seemed rather attractive.


    Edit: the other homebrew monk class made me wondering if its possible to combine the better sides of both into one superior class (no longer tier 5 poop), while simultaneously preserving the original flavor.

    I think that there should definitely be a choice of picking a fighting style, that comes in the form of an assortment of feats, certain bonuses and 'maneuvers'.
    that any comprehensive rebalance of the game ultimately needs to include a rebalance of several hundred badly balanced feats in order for the overhaul to be complete.
    Mostly because of the above, but without the ki-points and other resources overcomplicating the mechanics.

    Saves against monk's abilities should be: X + 1/2 monk's level + monk's Wis bonus
    And the daily uses of abilities should be equal to X + monk's Wis bonus.

    Finally, think out the ways to make it unfavorable to dip into the early levels.
    Last edited by huyche; 2011-02-19 at 01:01 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    I am not overly concerned with people multiclassing between monk and other classes. Heck, people do that now.

    It's also true that the revised monk can invalidate an AoO build. So can ten other classes, half of which are in the PHB. AoO fighters are weak; any character built around the assumption that all of his opponents will be melee combatants who are incapable of passing a DC 15 skill check is flawed.

    I agree that providing alternative sets of bonus feats to mimic specific fighting styles would be a neat way to customize the monk. However, that gets into murky territory in which any chain I propose would have to contain revamped feats, since so many feats suck so badly. I doubt the community would ever come to consensus on which feats should be rewritten and how, so I think I'll simply endorse the concept and leave individual DMs and players to hammer out the details.

    @ Lix: I don't take currency...

    The idea of keen as an option for Improved Ki Strike is pretty sweet. It's added. Just be careful shaking hands! I'd like to improve Ki Blast, because, well, yeah, shoryouken, but the feat sucks so bad I'm kind of at a loss on that one. Maybe set the damage to 1d6/character level or something? 3d6 is just a tickle.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    I am not overly concerned with people multiclassing between monk and other classes. Heck, people do that now.
    And that is a detractor. A base class should be as enticing going to the twentieth level as going to the first three, unless one is only going through them to gain specific class features that do not exist elsewhere. The class features that you have that don't exist else where at low levels are a +10 bonus to Jump, Tumble, and Balance. The high level class features are either not very powerful, not very interesting, or come to late, if they do come at all. The class features that exist are all passive and rarely increase any actual strategy for playing the monk class itself, which is my main problem with this class, and something you still have yet to deal with.

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    It's also true that a monk can invalidate an AoO build at 3rd level. So ten other classes. AoO fighters are weak characters; any character built around the assumption that he will never face an opponent capable of passing a DC 15 skill check is a weak character.
    It is DC 25, actually. Which, honestly, most low level characters cannot reach, even at level 7. In fact, the only level that you can reliably hit the DC (reliably being 80% of the time), is at level 10, without focusing entirely on it, which is class doesn't either, besides a footnote ability that provides a massive boost without increasing the options that one can use Tumble for.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Your criticism is noted, although I really think you should fact-check the numbers you're quoting, as they don't line up with my understanding of the rules at all. I'll also comment that playtest has shown the revised monk to be a versatile and effective character who easily finds a role within a party of mid-tier characters.

    Other than the one you previously mentioned, do you have any specific suggestions for improving the class?
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    Your criticism is noted, although I really think you should fact-check the numbers you're quoting, as they don't line up with my understanding of the rules at all. I'll also comment that playtest has shown the revised monk to be a versatile and effective character who easily finds a role within a party of mid-tier characters.
    Seventh level character, with full ranks and a 20 in Dexterity, but without any outside items or bonii = 10+5 = 15. The DC is 25. That means they have a half and half chance of not being AoOed, or being AoOed. At level ten: 13 ranks, plus a 24 in Dexterity = 13+7 = 20. 20/25 = 4/5 = .8, or 80%. If they do not max out Dexterity, or do not have full ranks in tumble? It gets even lower.

    For a level three monk with only an 18 in Dexterity: 6+10+4 = 20. That right there is already a reliable means of success, and it goes even higher when if the monk has a racial bonus to Dexterity, or Dexterity boosting items. So, basically, a level 3 monk who has the same proportion of ranks and Dexterity (which the monk is already being provided an incentive for, which is honestly fine).

    If the monk were to focus in it, and have an item? 6 (Ranks)+10 (DwtE)+4 (Dex)+3 (Skill Focus)+1 (Item)+2 (Mwk item) = +26, able to do it earlier than any other class. Even if you removed the crafted item of Tumble, you still have a 100% chance of making the check at level three. I would be honestly fine with that, though, if you had some other options to use Tumble for. But you don't. You are given those bonuses and never given anything more to do with them, which would make a far more interesting and capable melee warrior.

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    Other than the one you previously mentioned, do you have any specific suggestions for improving the class?
    Able to use Jump before an attack roll in order to boost damage. Being able to intersperse standard action flurries with tumble movement. Being able to avoid grapples/charges/trips with Balance. Being able to do things with your skills besides just using them to Jump/Tumble/Balance with them. Doing this for other skills as well would be cool. More options for Trip, Grapple, Charge, Bull Rush, etc, that the monk can get as actual class features rather than feats. Or, being able to pick a path of specialization to go through with class features (like you could have a Grappling monk, or a Charging monk, or a Tripping monk.) These abilities would be more in the end levels of the class, along with the general all around useful class features like Empty Step, etc.

    Basically, classes should be able to be multiple different character roles (brawler, monastical fighter, streetfighter, grappler, jyujutsu master), and also provide combat utility as well as out of combat utility. Combat utility involves being able to choose multiple different options for each combat, besides simply "I run in. I hit him a bunch of times with my fists. I continue to hit him a bunch of times with my fists." Out of combat utility is usually (for non-casters anyway) provided by skills, which you seem to have covered.

    Just my two cents.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Ahem. It's usually 15, not 25.

    Your suggestions are intriguing.
    • Jump check to increase damage.
    • Movement during a flurry of blows.
    • Balance to avoid grapples, charges, and/or trips.
    • Additional trap/grapple/charge/bull rush options.


    I'll think about this. Several of those options are already enabled by feats, but you make a good point that there's a difference between having the option of spending your feats on something and having that thing as a class feature and being free to spend your feats elsewhere.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Quote Originally Posted by unosarta View Post
    And that is a detractor. A base class should be as enticing going to the twentieth level as going to the first three
    While a lofty goal, that is your ideal; not a game design paradigm. I can only think of a single base class in 3.5 that follows your example: Knight. And it's one of said class' biggest weaknesses.

    You seem very hung up on this comparison on skill checks between monk and other classes, instead of what this class can accomplish vs other classes. A level 5 swordsage can teleport at will, a level 7 wizard can destroy a game world. This monk fix gets something to compensate for not being able to fly.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    Shoot, misread "move through enemies space" as "move through any area that opponent threatens."

    Good point.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pechvarry View Post
    While a lofty goal, that is your ideal; not a game design paradigm. I can only think of a single base class in 3.5 that follows your example: Knight. And it's one of said class' biggest weaknesses.

    You seem very hung up on this comparison on skill checks between monk and other classes, instead of what this class can accomplish vs other classes. A level 5 swordsage can teleport at will, a level 7 wizard can destroy a game world. This monk fix gets something to compensate for not being able to fly.
    But the capstone doesn't even feel like a capstone. The later abilities aren't any more interesting than going into a PrC would be for combat related abilities. This isn't about comparing to other base classes, but comparing between this class and prestige classes that can be gotten into. Most of the monk (and melee classes, really) suck, but they will still probably have more combat options than this class. But honestly, why not compare it to other classes? If I can do the same things with another class, and with more power, then why wouldn't I?

    As for flying; as I mentioned earlier, DwtE doesn't even begin to cover it.
    Last edited by unosarta; 2011-02-19 at 08:29 PM.
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