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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    At level 40, your opponents are immune to damage and have Armor Class: No and a hundred thousand hit points anyway. What do you care how much damage you deal?
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    I like it, aside from a couple quibbles, and would like to see playtesting.
    1) Needs full BAB. There isn't any other front-liner that lacks it, it won't increase your to-hit by much, and the "flurry" of blows as is is hardly better than a normal fighter, and worse than TWF.
    2) Why is the DR /Lawful? Demons and Devils can be harmed by Good, angels by Evil, Formians by Chaos, etc. because that's the opposite of what they are, and it disrupts them. By that logic, a monk with DR/Law would have defenses based on pure chaos.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    1) The monk is not a front-liner. The revised monk is intended to function as a melee-oriented dps skirmisher and skillmonkey, much like a rogue, ranger or scout (but without the wilderness focus of the latter two classes). It should also be able to step into other roles such as party face or infiltrator.

    2) Good point on the damage reduction. I'll flip it.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    1) The monk is not a front-liner. The revised monk is intended to function as a melee-oriented dps skirmisher and skillmonkey, much like a rogue, ranger or scout (but without the wilderness focus of the latter two classes). It should also be able to step into other roles such as party face or infiltrator.
    A mention of full BAB in two posts, almost consecutively? Darn, its on your first post, jiriku, when they'll get it?

    In any case, I'd like to point something interesting because there seems to be a mild conflict between your intention of making the Monk a skirmisher and the bonus feats, which include stuff like Improved Grapple, Improved Disarm and Improved Trip, which are generally dependant on good BAB (specially Imp. Grapple, which needs a superb BAB). Since the role is to keep it as a skirmisher, having those options open might be a bit troubling for a character who wishes to make a grappler out of a monk (not odd, since you get increased unarmed strike damage to add to the grapple attempts), or a tripper (making the Monk slightly dependant on Strength; Empty Strike helps only a bit on 3rd level but not to the degree of other classes). Generally that's a strong point behind giving full BAB to a Monk, because the idea of making trippers or grapplers out of the chassis should be an option.

    Having said that; there's no alternate option for those few characters who might want to make a more mobile yet still strong grappler or tripper, and that might make some utility out of the extra BAB to succeed on a grapple at least? Pathfinder Monk has a similar option you might just "borrow" to make Monks insane grapplers in any case someone might use the class without a particular focus in skirmishing. Maybe you can make it part of Empty Strike if you desire; it's an apparently minor +5 bonus at level 20, but with good Wisdom and other modifiers you can do a quite surprising grapple during the way.

    Also, minor nitpick, but they are still "unproficient" with unarmed strikes. Just mentioning.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    I've been using the monk in a campaign, as a front-line grappler. Granted, Part of what lets me go toe to toe is the fact that it's gestalt with a psion (empathetic feedback is awesome) but the BAB is perfectly fine as is. I have a +13/+13 flurry at lv 7, and do 1d8+2d6+9. Granted, it's a high power game, but the enemies are fairly tough, and I've managed to grapple, disarm, or flurry for decent damage pretty much at will. Even disarmed a large opponent. that might be due to my DM getting rid of the -4 penalty a sai has to disarm though. +20 disarm total.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    These are important concerns, and good things to hear. In part, I think a lot of the skepticism is probably due to my explaining it poorly. There's a lot of text in those first three posts, and sometimes important points are buried in unlikely places. I promise at that some undefined point in the future I'll go back and reorganize the presentation (again) to make the structure and function more obvious.

    To respond to several concerns, in order of ease of explanation:

    Proficiency with unarmed strikes: Needing "proficiency" with a body part is really quite silly. That's all I have to say about that.

    Does the monk need full base attack? I like numbers. Let's have some.

    Compare number of attacks:
    • Full base attack = 4 attacks per round by level 20, or 8 with full TWF
    • Medium base attack + Greater Flurry = 5 attacks per round by level 20, or 8 with full TWF


    Compare attack progressions:
    • Lvl20 warblade or fighter with Str 20, Dex 20, Wis 10
    • Normal: +25/+20/+15/+10
    • TWF: +23/+23/+18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8
    • Lvl20 monk with Str 10, Dex 20, Wis 20
    • Normal: +25/+25/+25/+20/+15
    • TWF: +23/+23/+23/+23/+18/+18/+13/+13

    Compare damage progressions:
    • Lvl20 warblade or fighter with Str 20, Dex 20, Wis 10, using two-handed sword (or longsword and shortsword)
    • Normal: 2d6+7 (x4) (avg. 56)
    • TWF: 1d8+5 (x4) and 1d6+2 (x4) (avg. 60)
    • Lvl20 monk with Str 10, Dex 20, Wis 20, using unarmed strikes
    • Normal 6d6+10 (x5) (avg. 105)
    • TWF 6d6+10 (x8) (avg. 198)
    Now, feats and gear and class features can change all this, but I think at a minimum these numbers should demonstrate that the monk suffers no disparity. Further, like a martial adept or duskblade, the monk retains most of his offensive capability when fighting on the move.

    What about grappling, tripping, and disarming?

    Did I mention I like numbers? Let's have some more.

    Same martial character, same monk; let's assume they both have Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, and Improved Disarm, since these feats just make sense for anyone who intends to do that stuff.
    • Martialist grapples: +29
    • Martialist trips: +9
    • Martialist disarms: +29 (plus mods for weapon)
    • Monk grapples: +29
    • Monk trips: +14
    • Monk disarms: +29 (plus mods for weapon)
    Again, feats, gear, and class features can change this up, but it looks to me as if the monk has rough parity here. He grapples just as well, trips a bit better, and probably disarms a bit worse, since other classes have access to better disarming weapons.

    Frankly, full base attack bonus is overhyped. It is an extra attack at -15 and a +5 bonus on attacks and a few combat maneuvers. I have not given the monk full base attack; I've given him something different, but just as good. Roll with it.

    If you play with it, you'll find that Empty Strike helps the monk in a lot of indirect ways. For example:

    The warblade can improve his combat effectiveness by buying up his Strength: +6 Strength costs 36k gold, and gives +3 to hit and either +1.5, +3, or +4.5 damage. He also gets +3 grapple, +3 trip, and +3 disarm.

    The monk can buy +4 Dex and +4 Wis for 32k, and receives +4 to hit, +4 damage, +4 grapple, +4 trip, and +4 disarm (he gets more for less). Plus, build synergies grant him +4 AC, +2 Init, +2 Ref save, and +2 Will save as well. And he's still got 4k in the bank.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2011-02-25 at 04:42 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    While the numbers are all nice and good, there's one slight problem I see: dual stat synergy. Specifically, to compete, the sum of your Wisdom and the main stat must be equal or higher than that of the martial character's Strength stat.

    To boot: you're assuming something reasonable in terms of potential stats, but while for another martial character only Strength is important, for a Monk using Empty Strike both Strength (or Dexterity) AND Wisdom is important, just to keep up. Now, that doesn't mean that will reduce the effectiveness of a multi-hit increased damage skirmisher, but it does make a dent on grapple because it's easier to skyrocket one score than both (inversely, and what I really see is the advantage, is that it makes you vulnerable to one stat).

    So, let's assume that 20 STR is reduced to...say, 12 STR because of a Ray of Enfeeblement (a 1st level spell!). Net loss is 4 points to attack rolls, damage rolls and grapple/disarm/trip checks. You still have at least 5 points (or perhaps less than that, basically you start with a +1 over medium BAB and you get an increase every 4-5 levels). The loss will be a bit more important on disarm and trip, but you still can defend on sheer attack power and grapple.

    Same thing on Monk, except this time is either Strength or Wisdom. You lose 8 points of either, and since the net loss would be the same on both sides, the Monk remains competitive. However, and this is a big one: if you get hit on both Dex and Wisdom, you get in trouble. You could argue it's the same for a Fighter that gets a negative level, but unfortunately it's an equal loss for both sides. So, if you get hurt on both sides, you end up losing more because you lose all those stats. Now, very few things affect Wisdom but there are lots of things that affect Dexterity, so you need to be careful about that one. However, while a martial character would only need to focus on two stats (Strength and Constitution, maybe Dexterity if you want to go with TWF), a Monk needs three stats to keep up (fortunately one of those is Dexterity, but you still need Wisdom and Constitution to keep up). What's more, you depend on two stats to be successful while a TWF character needs only one stat and the requisites for another.

    But, that goes even further. TWF and Strength usually don't mix; TWF + Sneak Attack do mix, though. Or TWF + lots of extra damage (which is one of the ways you can play the Monk). But change the tactics completely, and you'll see a big difference; for example, how does a character that depends on two stats run against, say, a PA-using character, which only needs Strength to maximize it's capabilities? There are several ways to pretty much ignore AC, and one hit deals quite a bit of damage.

    But damage isn't the thing; you've stated that the intention is "get a lot of hits while remaining mobile, and rely on two stats and increased fist damage to compensate". In that sense, it's not built badly; since you're applying a bit more static damage than dynamic damage on each hit, you basically compensate for whatever loss in attack bonus while undergoing TWF (same as how the huge damage gain by wielding a 2-handed weapon while using PA offsets the loss of attack bonus when using the feat). The thing is grappling, where every point counts. Tripping is special: you need a way to provoke attacks of opportunity so you might need a good Dex for that, which means either going Robilar's Gambit/Karmic Strike or using a reach weapon (such as the spiked chain), so it's quite expected that the Monk will be at least competitive until someone uses a guisarme or racks up the Tumble checks. Disarming is pretty much pointless, but the bonuses granted by weapons also count. Grapple, though, is the monster. You don't need to beat any other class on grappling; you need to beat the monsters on grappling, and that means compensating for being Large or larger, extra limbs and tactics such as improved grab. In that sense, every point counts, and those 5 points of non-existent BAB might be the difference between evading (or grappling) a monster and failing (on both accounts) to do so. Feats and abilities may make the Monk work it out, but the dependance on two ability scores might not be that good. And even then, the idea is not to make the Monk "just good"; the idea is to make it better. Consider that they get Improved Grapple, Improved Disarm and Improved Trip for free; unless that's something on my behalf, I think the devs had the idea that the monk would be as good, if not better, than the other martial characters at grappling, disarming or tripping (which, of course, doesn't happen; for what it's worth, they also suck on the other combat maneuvers, but YMMV on that one). Empty Strike, on that regard, introduces an artificial balance to the system which allows stacking two stats to compensate for the loss of BAB in order to use these abilities, which is my peeve; you have two chances to get hit on those scores and get your artificial benefit reduced to below effectiveness, causing you to turn slightly more dependent on boosts to ability scores in order to make that worthwhile.

    Example: remember how by having 32,000 GP you can add a +4 to both Dex and Wisdom? Certainly that means you add at least two points on Dexterity and Wisdom when leveling up; a Strength-dependent character needs only to add his bonuses to Strength, so it basically balances up until you bypass Epic, but then again going epic to be better than the martial characters on those kinds of builds is kinda preposterous. In that regard, while still a bit artificial, the solution presented by the Pathfinder books makes slightly more sense; you're equalizing all factors, so that when everything is set and done, the Monk will have a better default score on those abilities than, say, the Fighter or the Warblade. That makes the Monk more attractive than a Fighter or Warblade in terms of making grapple builds (and with the increase in unarmed strike damage, perhaps doubly so), since the latter have increased feats and boosts that increase damage to compensate for the raw increase in dynamic damage from the increase to unarmed strikes.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    A lengthy response! I'll try to address the salient points. I actually put rather a lot of thought into the new monk class features, so woot! I get to talk shop.

    Quote Originally Posted by T.G. Oskar View Post
    ...it's easier to skyrocket one score than both...
    I would contest this. Both the point-buy rules and the costs for stat-enhancing items force you to pay geometrically more for bigger numbers. Stacking restrictions make it harder to apply multiple buffs to a single stat than to apply multiple buffs to multiple stats. It's actually easier to buff multiple stats, both from an opportunity-cost perspective (cheaper items and better point buy ratios) and from a time investment perspective (less need to search multiple books looking for stuff that grants untyped stat boosts or boosts with obscure descriptors).

    [A multiple-stat-dependent character has more stats to defend]
    This is true, but a multiple-stat-dependent character is also harder to debilitate completely. He can get clobbered in one stat without getting totally hosed; this is the concept of distributed risk, or "don't put all your eggs in one basket". The monk will perform more reliably in the face of debuffing - he'll tend to be consistently debuffed a little bit, instead of being intermittently unaffected and intermittently made completely useless.

    Additionally, consider the total package. A monk has several built-in features that make him more difficult to target and affect with debuffs, such as Empty Strike (allowing you to switch between Strength and Dex if one gets badly depleted), Improved Evasion, a high touch AC, a mobile combat style (less likely to be the recipient of full attacks), and swift etherealness. I am cognizant of the fact that the monk has much to defend, and I provide him with a variety of defensive tools.

    A martial character would only need...Strength and Constitution, maybe Dexterity if you want to go with TWF), a Monk needs three stats to keep up (fortunately one of those is Dexterity, but you still need Wisdom and Constitution to keep up). What's more, you depend on two stats to be successful while a TWF character needs only one stat and the requisites for another.
    This analysis is close but I have a quibble. It's a small quibble. This is how I see it:
    • Stock warblade: +Str, +Con, +1/2 Int
    • Stock monk: +Dex, +1/2 Con, +Wis
    • Stock TWF warblade: +Str, +Dex, +Con, +1/2 Int
    • Stock TWF ranger: +Str, +Dex, +1/2 Con, +1/2 Wis
    • Stock TWF monk: +Dex, +1/2 Con, +Wis

    Why does the monk need less Con? He's a striker, like the ranger, not a front-liner. And as you can see, he's no more MAD than any other martial character.

    And even then, the idea is not to make the Monk "just good"; the idea is to make it better.
    Actually, the idea is not to make the monk "better"; the idea is to make it just good.

    remember how by having 32,000 GP you can add a +4 to both Dex and Wisdom? Certainly that means you add at least two points on Dexterity and Wisdom when leveling up; a Strength-dependent character needs only to add his bonuses to Strength, so it basically balances up until you bypass Epic
    Whoa there, tiger. I've shown that +4 Dex and +4 Wis on a monk is superior to +6 Str on a warblade while costing less. If you want to bring ability advancement through leveling into play, +2 Dex and +2 Wis from monk leveling is also superior to +4 Strength from warblade leveling. Plainly put, the monk gets a dramatically higher return from stat investment than other martial classes, and his MAD simply multiplies this benefit by making it dirt cheap to buy up his stats.

    Empty Strike, on that regard, introduces an artificial balance to the system which allows stacking two stats to compensate for the loss of BAB in order to use these abilities, which is my peeve....
    I prefer the term "innovative, refreshing new mechanic" over "artificial balance".

    I appreciate that you love you some full base attack, but the monk is extremely mechanically effective as-is. Perhaps you could set your peeve aside and consider approaching the class in a more flexible, open-minded manner. You might discover that Empty Strike and its supporting features create the opportunity for many new, enjoyable builds and combos.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2011-02-25 at 08:49 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    I know this is slightly irrelevent to the conversation you're having at the moment about full BAB (which I think is fine as is. Maybe one solution would be to use class level as BAB for flurry of blows? make everyone happy?), but I had an idea that might help the skirmishy aspect of the class, and encourage the player to keep moving.

    when he gets abundant step at 8th level, maybe give him an alternate ability thats something like:

    Quickstep: whenever you move 10 ft in one round you gain 20% concealment, as if under the effects of the blur spell.

    Then, this could upgrade at 13th level instead of gaining empty step. Maybe give him displacement instead of blur?

    This would make sure he keeps moving, especially as a tie in with the skirmish ACF.

    just an idea, but by the way thank you so much. This makes me glad that I've kept with monks. and thanks for the esoteric weapon feat as well- who says I can't play the wandering swordsman?

    EDIT: Question about the skirmish ACF. Do your unarmed strikes still deal 1d6 damage? because if not that makes your ki strike must less useful. Maybe clarify that a little in the ability, because as I understand it, you gain no bonuses to damage (so thats 1d4, still lethal though because of the feat), and instead gain 1d6 skirmish at first level.
    Last edited by Castiel; 2011-03-07 at 04:14 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    A monk with the skirmish ACF does not receive any increase in unarmed damage, although he can buy himself better damage with the Superior Unarmed Strike feat.

    So, for example, a level 1 skirmishing monk would deal 1d3+1d6 damage with an unarmed strike.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    gotcha. Thanks for that, but taking that feat would raise unarmed damage to 1d6?

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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    It scales with level, anywhere from 1d4 to 2d6. You can find it in the Tome of Battle, p33.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    I love this revision. Now for some comments.

    IMO, sense the void is actually more iconic to the monk than slow fall, as it gives the image of the blindfolded martial arts master.

    Now on to pros and cons.

    Pros: pretty much everything, dance with the elements is awesome, and better unarmed strike damage and standard action flurry of blows are just icing on the cake.

    Cons: 3/4 BAB. I fully believe the monk should get full BAB.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Quote Originally Posted by Swiftmongoose View Post
    Cons: 3/4 BAB. I fully believe the monk should get full BAB.
    Jiriku has already covered this earlier in the thread; I honestly have to agree with him, the full BAB is kind of unnecessary in this class.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Quote Originally Posted by unosarta View Post
    Jiriku has already covered this earlier in the thread; I honestly have to agree with him, the full BAB is kind of unnecessary in this class.
    Mm, no. I think 6 skill ranks per level and full BAB. Because they don't get attack bonuses from magic weapons.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Quote Originally Posted by Swiftmongoose View Post
    Mm, no. I think 6 skill ranks per level and full BAB. Because they don't get attack bonuses from magic weapons.
    You should look at his numbers. They also gain Wisdom to hit, as well as Dexterity, and that pretty much covers (and maybe then some) the attack bonus. Also, it is generally easier to boost two stats to high levels than one.

    Six skill points per level would be going against the core idea behind the class, which is a minor skirmisher/DPS, and a skillmonkey.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Quote Originally Posted by Swiftmongoose View Post
    Because they don't get attack bonuses from magic weapons.
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  18. - Top - End - #138
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    Ki Strike and Empty Strike say hi.
    Bwahahaha! Exactly! Thanks for the compliments and feedback on the class, Swiftmongoose. You'll find that ki strike includes enhancement bonuses to hit and damage, and that the Improved Ki Strike feat upgrades it further. Moreover, the revised feat support for the monk offers considerably more offensive potential than you're used to seeing in a monk, and the monk's accuracy is further improved because he does not need Power Attack to deal impressive melee damage.

    I promise that another update to the monk is still forthcoming, this one focusing on abilities for higher-level play. I'm just...working some mad stupid hours right now, hip-deep in Excel and PowerPoint, building business presentations for executives who don't understand numbers as well as they think they do. BUT, new monk stuff is in the pipeline.

    Currently, my play group is playtesting a revised monk variant with 10 skill points per level and the decisive strike ACF (which combines very with with Spring Attack) in a group with a swordsage, daring outlaw, and a variant warlock. In the Tomb of Horrors. With the original Gygax traps. And me, a rabid optimizer DM who actually tapes a little skull to his monitor for each PC kill he gets.

    So far the monk has performed quite well, neither dragging his compatriots down nor overshadowing them.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2011-03-18 at 04:30 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Amazing. I'm considering stating that this is now the version of Monk used in my campaign. Nice work. Actually makes one worth playing. Kudos.

    Oh, so does the Monk's belt give a corresponding increase in the other acrobatic skills, since it would be boosting Dance with Elements instead of just plane movespeed? Or does it just boost the speed? Apologies if this has been covered previously.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Thanks!

    The monk's belt doesn't improved speed at all. Perhaps you were thinking of a different item?
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  21. - Top - End - #141
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    Thanks!

    The monk's belt doesn't improved speed at all. Perhaps you were thinking of a different item?
    Crud, you're right. Man, what item was I thinking of? Perhaps it was in the MIC?

    Nevermind. Excellent work. It actually makes playing a Monk fun, as opposed to always being some Martial Adept.
    Last edited by Welknair; 2011-03-18 at 04:35 PM.
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    Welknair you are a god among men. Thank you for creating a playground for the completely insane.
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    There have also been times where I was jealous of your ingenuity and skills.

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  22. - Top - End - #142
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    I've considered a bit, and you know, at some point, you have to give the audience what they want. I've added a Martial Monk variant in the fourth post. The martial monk has...(drumroll)...a full base attack bonus! It sacrifices a few other things for it, so the variant has a trade-off and is not a straight upgrade. However, it should fill the need for players who like the revised monk but want to see a full base attack bonus on the chart.
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  23. - Top - End - #143
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    Ki Strike and Empty Strike say hi.
    ... I think I deserved that, as it's been months since I looked this through (found it before I joined).

    Even so, I clearly remember dance with the elements, it's awesome.

    I still think sense the void is more iconic than slow fall, as nothing comes to mind when I think of slow fall, but the blindfolded martial artist comes to mind when I think of sense the void.

    And I suppose the 3/4 BAB is slightly better than the full BAB one.
    Last edited by Hiro Protagonest; 2011-03-18 at 07:28 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Hello, I'm the test MONKey in jiriku's campaign. How ya doing?

    I've been radically enjoying the abilities of this monk, and the fact that I have been extremely successful with the large skill point pool and the combat features. The skill monkey part has allowed us to continue forward without our rogue at some points, and combined with the warlock we can unlock, disarm, or blow up anything in our way.

    Also, I have taken the ACF Decisive Strike with Superior Unarmed Strike, Snap Kick, and a Monk's Belt. The result is that at level 9 I have a modest +15 to attack (+13 with Snap Kick) and if I hit with both Decisive Strike and Snap Kick I deal 16d6+36 damage. The ability to pull this off with the Spring Attack and a 60ft move speed has allowed me to be incredibly effective in combat. Oh, and I can pull off a trip attack every round too since Improved Trip was one of the built in bonus feat options. Oh yeah, and I have Magic, Adamantine, and Alchemical Silver Ki Strikes. It's beautiful... *sniff*

    The result has been the utter destruction of any and all traps, the destruction of multiple enemies with little to no loss of resources or HP, and some really fun cinematics in my mind of monk awesomeness.

    Now if I can just get rid of this blasted levitation trap effect I'll be really happy. Bloody Gygax, God rest his zombie bones.

  25. - Top - End - #145
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    @Jiriku

    A question, what does the second AC bonus count as?

    Players Guide gives the Wis as untyped (doesn't mention so call it untyped), second one you give here just says can't wear armor. So can you wear Bracers of Armor or Impervious Vestment or is it limited to stats and class, for example.

    Kind of annoying when your class feature is only a 6000gp item buy. :P Like the speed bonus. -.- Still good fun of course, just less straight power.

    @Heidigger
    Did you use Snap Kick with Decisive Strike before level 9? -4 to attack didn't seem like it would work all that well when I was going over the possibilities. And will you be grabbing the other two Spring Attack feats? Not that you'd need them, 3 attacks at near full BAB and equiv to 4 attacks damage is fine really but you know, more damage is like more fire or negative energy. Must.. Have.. And are you using variant Dodge feats or just vanilla? I make characters, don't game. Not many people I know are interested in gaming so lack a chance to try them out.



    Side note, for those wanting more to do with Tumble, try PHB2 and CW, possibly also Cityscape and CS. Combat Acrobat for instance just lists things you can do with Balance. And some other feat lets you Tumble faster, slash someones legs whilst tumbling, etc. With Dance with the Elements, you have Jump, Tumble and Balance checks that are through the roof, and it's a trained skill so you're already proficient with them. Which means all you need to do is establish a reasonable DC for the abilities listed in the feat and you have your alternate uses other than "I roll past the orc". Jump gives you a charge alternative so you can "charge" from 30ft up in the air, or there's a feat/skill trick somewhere allowing you to flip off a wall, but again, just work out a DC for it and you should theoretically be able to do it. Even 10ft is fine though, that counts for the Piercer Cloak (MiC pg118) to give you +2d6 dmg. And there's the bonus to attack from higher ground somewhere, +1?

    Cityscape has Swift Tumbler, feat, allows you to tumble 10ft faster than half speed. But that should just require a higher DC, not a whole new feat. Seems a waste anyway. (2e purist, if that hasn't hit yet. :P) The tactical feats from there, Roofwalker and Roof-Jumper which should require DC's, but jumper is partially useful anyway Walker is useless, just lowers the DC's and grants you +1 AC which you don't need but is requirement for jumper. 'shrugs' If you have +80 to jump, may as well make use of it.

    Maybe I need to make a new thread.. Discussion and revision of feats for Revised Monk. Right after I finish making my Warlock.

  26. - Top - End - #146
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    1) Quivering Palm is unclear. Your description implies that you can flurry and stack a ton of Quivering Palms on a person at once, then activate them, but the ability isn't clear on how to activate it. Is it a action that replaces one attack in your routine, instead of doing damage? Something you can do when attacking someone in addition to your damage dealt? Maybe I just missed something obvious, but my reading left it unclear to me.

    2) Suggestion: A new monk feat to improve the spell resistance. 10+level is typically standard, but with so many tricks out there to boost CLs, it's not hard for casters to just ignore that much entirely.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    The AC bonus is untyped. As is the speed bonus.

    Snap Kick has a +6 base attack bonus minimum, so Heidigger wasn't able to get it until level 9. Regardless, his Wis and Dex are both pretty good, so he tends to hit most of the time. In Tomb of Horrors, it especially isn't an issue because most of the opponents have low-ish AC for their CR.

    I take a... fairly radical approach to feats. I've rewritten a couple hundred of the sub-optimal feats to balance better and scale with increasing level. One of these days I'm going to burn the Book of Feats and the Book of Classes to pdf so I can show what I'm talking about instead of just making vague references. Specifically, in this setting Mobility is part of Dodge, while Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz are part of Spring Attack, unlocking as the character levels up and achieves the appropriate base attack minimums. This means that Heidigger need invest only two feats to get the benefits of Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Bounding Assault, and Rapid Blitz, although he won't get iteratives with his spring attack for many more levels yet. IMO, this is a more appropriate cost for the benefits provided by the feat chain.

    Quivering Palm is delivered as part of a normal melee attack. Its effect is in addition to the damage the attack would normally deal. It can be delivered whenever the monk is making an attack, even on an out-of-turn AoO (although the death trigger can only be performed on the monk's turn, since it's a free action).

    An SR-boosting feat is a good idea. I'm planning to overhaul the OP later this month and do a comprehensive edit to improve the presentation and spruce up the higher-level features a bit. I'll include that feat when I make my edit.
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  28. - Top - End - #148
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Quote Originally Posted by Newt View Post
    @Heidigger
    Did you use Snap Kick with Decisive Strike before level 9? -4 to attack didn't seem like it would work all that well when I was going over the possibilities. And will you be grabbing the other two Spring Attack feats? Not that you'd need them, 3 attacks at near full BAB and equiv to 4 attacks damage is fine really but you know, more damage is like more fire or negative energy. Must.. Have.. And are you using variant Dodge feats or just vanilla? I make characters, don't game. Not many people I know are interested in gaming so lack a chance to try them out.
    Jiriku explained most of why I waited until level 9 for Snap Kick. The good news is that since I was forced to wait until then for BAB to get high enough, the -2 for Decisive Strike vanishes at lvl 9, so I'm stlll only working at a -2 penalty to attacks. As for the stats, as jiriku mentioned, they are pretty good at +5 Dex and +6 Wis bonus, so my offensive and defensive capabilities are pretty high for a monk.

    If I were to continue with this character past the end of the Tomb of Horrors, I would probably go with Robilar's Gambit added on so that I could be getting AOOs with my Decisive Strike and Snap Kick's continued to be added in. It's a tad risky, but with a good AC bonus and decent hit points, I would be able to get around environments where Sprint Attack wouldn't be easily available, or against monsters that get around immunities to AOO from Spring Attack of other feats. Throwing in the DR that gets added on later in the monk, or just taking a few extra feats to get it would also help to balance out the additional threat this would cause.

  29. - Top - End - #149
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Dude, you are getting way too confident. I am totally giving Acererak Leadership and a desert kraken cohort now.
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  30. - Top - End - #150
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk (finally the red-headed stepchild gets some respect and PEACH!

    Hey man, he can cast epic spells, he doesn't need any of your DM hocus pocus mumbo jumbo. Chances are we're going to walk in and then he's going to force our skeletons to jump out of our throats... I should stop talking now before I give you any more ideas.

    And unless you forget, I've been hit by damn near every trap that didn't get disarmed. I even got anti-gravved and spent a session bouncing along the ceiling like the red balloon. My poor monk is probably going to suffer an alignment shift from PTSD.

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