[3.5] The Monk Remixed

[CaeruliusVentus]

Not quite, they qualify as if they have Weapon Finesse, it's isn't actually WF. The feat grants Dex to attack only, not damage. Think of it like Ranger, can qualify for other feats based upon having this one, but the mechanics are a bit off.

I agree and I really like this feature. I generally go dex heavy which means agile monks with no real damage. But it also means giving up a feat so that there is a chance of hitting. This class ability solves both problems.

My original point is that adding wisdom to damage emulates a feat that most melee types won't have access to (weapon specialization). Though I think whether it should be allowed or not is best left to the individual DMs.

[Newt]

My original point is that adding wisdom to damage emulates a feat that most melee types won't have access to (weapon specialization).

Yea, but most other classes will get some sort of damage increasing feat specific to them. Craven, for instance. A lovely little thing which any class with Sneak Attack damage will love. Fighters get Weapon Specialization, think there's an archery feat to give damage based on distance, there's a feat to increase Favored Enemy bonuses, Smite bonuses.. Then there's a simple Bulls Strength for +2 to damage.

Now Monks have something, except it's built into their class. You could make it a feat, but then you run into the problem of Class == Feats, so basically an unarmed Fighter. And no-one wants that. :P Actually the main problem with making it a feat is throwing it on said Fighter along with Weapon Specialization. This way it's relatively non-abusable and doesn't appear so far to be over powered going by the play tests that have come up in this thread. I get your point, I merely disagree with the conclusion. :p

Oh, I think Weapon Specialization became available to non-Fighters depending on class (some have it in bonus feat list) and BAB. Possibly a variant rule in UA, CW or some such giving the feat to anyone who had a certain amount of BAB. Out of reach of non-full BAB classes though for a greater part of their careers though.



Totally off topic, Vow of Poverty + Revised Monk..
Yes, in return for all the hard work that has gone into making an unarmed and unarmored class I think up ways to exploit that. If it's any consolation, it would prohibit players from making castles out of gold pieces so wouldn't be used that much, and I was thinking about Warlocks at the time.

[Lix Lorn]

Also, just to point out, Weapon Specialisation is a TERRIBLE feat. Any playgroup more optimised than a core monk avoids it like the plague.

[byaku rai]

Second campaign with the monk today. x.x I did fairly well, keeping up with the Warblade even though she started out the encounter far from the action. The DwtE bonus to Tumble came in extremely handy, and I cheesed it a bit. Unfortunately, I was instagib'ed towards the end of the encounter. x.x critical hits hurt.

As far as problems go, all there really is to report is the easily-abusable Tumble bonus from DwtE. It makes a mockery of traditional combat (not bad in and of itself, I was tired of playing straight fighter-types). What would be really nice is if there was some way to translate the DwtE bonus into some sort of bonus on attacks/damage, i.e. Acrobatic attacks, Jumping attacks, maybe even something cool to do with balance.

btw, I'm playing as a Catfolk (Races of the Wild), which gives +4 Dex and +2 Cha. I have 16 Wis and 22 Dex.

[silphael]

What about the synergy between Ki strike and the enhancement bonus of the vow of poverty?

[NeoSeraphi]

What about the synergy between Ki strike and the enhancement bonus of the vow of poverty?

Enhancement bonuses from different sources don't stack, the higher value overlaps the lower one. So VoP wouldn't help this monk at all, at least in that regard.

[jiriku]

VoP in general is a trap, although there's a homebrewed fix to it floating around this forum that I generally support. The big win for a monk in taking VoP is AC bonus and feats, and I'd support allowing monk-specific feats to be taken as VoP bonus feats, since they can be viewed as products of his ascetic, devoted lifestyle (some DMs may feel differently though).

[ForzaFiori]

As far as problems go, all there really is to report is the easily-abusable Tumble bonus from DwtE. It makes a mockery of traditional combat (not bad in and of itself, I was tired of playing straight fighter-types).

It's so much fun though, isn't it. I've been trying to find ways to make use of all the different huge bonuses. So far I've leapt something like 20' straight up, tumbled across an entire battlefield to leap up and grapple a flying opponent, currently I'm balancing on an invisible pole, and can pass the check by 8 if I roll a 1. Feels like I'm actually playing an eastern monk/wuxia star.

[byaku rai]

My DM hates it when I can just tumble through all the opponents in my way without even rolling, though. XD

[jiriku]

Heh! Poor DM. Give him a tissue and bag of caltrops, with my compliments.

[byaku rai]

Oh, I've boosted my autohypnosis as well. Caltrops won't slow me down /at all/.

[Human Paragon 3]

Just stumbled upon this incredible monk revision! Well done, sir.

I would suggest a variant that trades disable device and trapfinding for survival and track, however, to create a loner wondering the earth, camping out in the forest and tracking down the man who killed his sensei archetype.

[Randomguy]

Empty body's little brother, this ability is a huge game-changer for the monk. Shifting etheral as an immediate action...

Swift etherealness takes a swift action, not an immediate action. Or am I missing something here? You can still activate it after flurrying an enemy so they can't hit you back, so it's still useful, but it can't save you from rocket tag.

Awesome fix, by the way.

[jiriku]

Wow. Oh, wow. We've been playing that spell wrong for the past two years in my group. Wow. You'd think the name would have been a tip-off, right?

Thanks for the compliments! The Manhunter ACF now allows a monk to track instead of trapfind. Good idea.

[Human Paragon 3]

Actually, you can use it as a swift or immediate. check your local listings.

[jiriku]

Explain? I can't remember where I got the immediate interpretation all those years ago, but reading the book now, it's undeniably a swift cast.

[userpay]

I think he might be referring to that its all up to the DM.

[Ornemus]

It is quite funny to see how the same idea, here "keep the monk as close as possible of the 3.5 one" cans lead to such opposite ideas...

To my mind, a trapfinding monk is an example of something far too different from the original one. But the using of a Ki pool is quite natural for me.

Still, I can say that you've made a very, very nice work. I will not use this one straightforward, but I took wide inspiration for my own homebrew version of the monk.

Thank you, then !

[Todash]

Just wanted to let you know, that I'm currently test running your Monk, in preparation for a Tomb of Horrors group. So far, it's seriously the most enjoyable, and most "monk-like" character I've ever played. Great job, and thank you.

[CaeruliusVentus]

What would be really nice is if there was some way to translate the DwtE bonus into some sort of bonus on attacks/damage, i.e. Acrobatic attacks, Jumping attacks, maybe even something cool to do with balance.

Been looking into this and there are actually a number of ways to do this with feats. Acrobatic strike from PHB2 gives you a +4 on an attack against a foe you tumbled past until the end of your turn. The others tend to focus around charging to get bonuses on attack or multiples of damage. I include the charge because DWtE combined with the higher move speed means you can charge across almost any battlefield. (the d&d faq says you can tumble during a charge as long as you go in a straight line, though if you have to get past an enemy you can just jump over them). Also, there are some charging feats that focus on attacking from above which is possible with the jump checks after about level 6.

[jiriku]

I'd agree that there's a vacuum of options at upper levels. Since I first wrote this class several years ago, I've had more opportunity to play and run games in the 10th-16th level range, and I think that while the monk remix will remain combat-effective at those levels, it starts to fall behind in terms of its ability to impact the game world in non-combat situations. I think some support with powerful, level-appropriate feats could fill that gap, especially if they exploit its epic skill-check capabilities. Not really feelin' any good ideas yet, though. Anyone have suggestions?

[Lix Lorn]

Not really on that note, but making a monk who is not a grappler and didn't take stunning fist, I have no option for a useful level 14 feat... perhaps Far Shot?

[jiriku]

It's a bit light for a 14th level feat for my taste, but there really isn't much going on for archers at that level, so I can't think of anything better. Far Shot it is. Reference to Far Shot as it's used IMC:

FAR SHOT [Fighter, General]
You are far more effective than others when using ranged weapons against distant targets.

Spoiler

Show

Benefit: When using ranged projectile weapons, such as a bow, your range increment is increased by +50%. When using thrown weapons, your ranged increment is increased by +100%. You can use ranged weapons in windstorm conditions at a -8 penalty.
Advancement: If you have base attack bonus +8 or greater, treat wind conditions as one category less severe when determining how difficult it is to use ranged weapons.
If you have base attack bonus +16 or greater, instead treat wind conditions as two categories less severe.
Normal: It is impossible to use ranged weapons in windstorm conditions.
Special: Far Shot can be used in place of Point Blank shot to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other special ability. You can take both this feat and Point Blank Shot.

[Newt]

If you're willing to reshuffle you could give some low level "theme" feats, fire, shadow, cold, etc, based ascetics. Although Fiery Fist and Sun School is in there...

A feat that doubles the Wis Mod bonus for Abundant Step? Heh, and a variant of Sun School which uses Shadow. Shadow Dancer Monk like it should be. :D As opposed to being a 25/30 level S.D. and only being able to jump a paltry 4 miles a day. Improved Ki Strike already allows you to turn your weapon ethereal, a feat which allows you to do it as a Swift action? Because a double ended sword that goes ethereal as you slam the door shut is just cool. :P Flashy lol

Once per day as a Swift action you can temporarily swap the bonus from Improved Ki Strike to different one for X rounds. Afterwards the bonus reverts and you are Y. Exhausted seems a bit much, take something of non-lethal damage?

EDIT:

On the other hand, that could be moving into Ninja/Jedi territory and may leave the Wushu path. YMMV

[Lix Lorn]

That's not a bad idea; feats to give you more uses for some of your many wis/day stuff.

[Lix Lorn]

Excellent. With that, a magic item, and another class, I can punch people from 40ft away using magical projections of my hands.

[Newt]

Excellent. With that, a magic item, and another class, I can punch people from 40ft away using magical projections of my hands.

Now for one of those Wushu/bad martial arts movie moments where you leap up, then punch a flying creature to the ground, without touching them. ^ ^

May I ask which item/alt class you're using? I've seen wizards do the touch spell = ranged spell trick, never seen it in melee form.

[Lix Lorn]

I have a necklace of natural attacks (from savage species) that gives two natural weapons +1, Throwing and Distance.
By taking the Swordmage (homebrew) class, I can make magical copies of my fists, although minor shenanigans and feats are necessary to use them constantly.

[jiriku]

It is quite funny to see how the same idea, here "keep the monk as close as possible of the 3.5 one" cans lead to such opposite ideas...

To my mind, a trapfinding monk is an example of something far too different from the original one. But the using of a Ki pool is quite natural for me.

This complaint struck home for me, and I've been thinking about it for months. To address it, I've now moved the monk's Disable Device, Open Locks, and trapfinding into an ACF called School of the Nimble Hand. The default monk will have Decipher Script, Forgery, and Research as a bonus feat, and can trade these things for School of the Nimble Hand.

[Randomguy]

I found a bit of a loophole in your version of the Sun School feat:

A multiclass monk/swordsage with one level in monk can use shadow blink: swift action, grants a standard action, which you can flurry with. Then you use your move action for Shadow stride: another standard action. Lastly, you use your standard action to initiate shadow jump, and gain a third standard action.

If you're a Monk 11/SwordSage 9, you can flurry for 3 attacks as a standard action. That means that using this gets you 9 attacks at your highest BAB. With roundabout kick as one of your feats, that's 12 attacks. Or you could use two teleports and one full round action, for 13.

Was this intentional, or should it be fixed?