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  1. - Top - End - #211
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    One exploit that takes a 20th lvl build? And It don't even think it's more powerful then say a Warblade 17/ Bard 3 doing TWF with speed enchanted wepaons, optimized inspire courage, and both Raging Mongoose and Time Stands still. (Heck, I think it might be a bit less powerful then that.)

    I don't think that trick would need a fix.
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    9 attacks seems like a lot, till you realise a Wizard can kill everyone in a 200 mile radius with Locate City and various shenanigans. Well, fail a reflex save and you die, but most people don't stack reflex as high as they should. I think technically he also destroys buildings and trees as well, doing the equivalent of epic spells without all the bother of actually being epic. And a Druid can live in a permanent Timestop bubble. Sorcerers are Sorcerers. This doesn't even bring the Monk up to on par. :P

    A core Fighter might complain, but that's because they're a core Fighter who forgets they should be glad they're not a core monk. A Rogue is going to match it, any class from Bo9S is going to surpass it. If you're putting 20 levels into getting up a decent flurry then you may as well have your little trick. It's like the Wizard Locate City trick, it's going to take most or all of his feats to do so, and there's still a reflex save. So say well done for spending your whole 20 levels working towards being able to do one thing well, now here's an enemy that you can't touch. Have fun

    Or throw in a Huge monster, teleporting around it's head kicking it would be pretty cool. Especially if an AMF popped up. Also, entirely unrelated to game balance but focusing on the wushu section, there's rumours of high level karate sensai's being able to repeatedly kick and keep themselves off the ground. I say rumours because I've never seen them in person, and I don't do karate anyway. It definitely fits the flavour of this particular Monk though.

  3. - Top - End - #213
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    I am continuing to work on tricks for high level monks. I have a little something planned to improve monkly ranged capabilities, but currently my scarce development hours are tied up with follow-up on the shapeshifter and mage slayer fighter ACF, and development of a remixed hexblade and shadowcaster. The monk will eventually have his day, however.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2012-05-10 at 06:29 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Monk Feats

    I don't mean to practice thread necromancy, but I just noticed some slight errors while browsing through this feat that I am planning to use in a campaign
    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    ASCETIC ROGUE [General]
    You have gone beyond the bounds of your monastic training to incorporate new modes of stealthy combat. Although your fellow monks may frown on your methods, none can doubt that your diverse training has improved your ability to strike precisely and bring down your foes quickly.
    Spoiler
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    Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, sneak attack +2d6.
    Benefit: When you use an unarmed strike or special monk weapon with a sneak attack to deliver a stunning attack, you add 2 to the DC of your stunning attempt.
    Your rogue and monk levels stack when determining your unarmed strike progression and sneak attack progression. If you replace either of these features via an alternate class feature, your monk and sorcerer levels stack when determining the progression of that alternate feature.
    In addition, Bluff becomes a monk class skill for you and Autohypnosis becomes a rogue class skill for you. This does not apply retroactively to any skill points you have already allocated.
    Emphasis mine. Also, might I suggest clarifying the prerequisites? Based on the feat description, Monk and Martial Rogue levels will stack for purposes of determining number of fighter bonus feats (an alternate class feature). By default, the Martial Rogue would be ineligible to take this feat, unless he finds another way to get sneak attack.

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    Oh, this is always a work in progress. We're using the monk right now in two current campaigns, and I'm actively working on a revision of it right now. Good point about the feat; I'll make an adjustment.

    Since I'm here, let me solicit anyone who's using this monk right now for your experiences:

    Gaming experience is showing that the monk's damage output is a bit on the high side when compared to members of other striker-type classes, and that other classes need higher levels of optimization to reach its damage output. Is this also your experience with it? I'm considering whether or not I should remove the benefit that grants Wisdom bonus to damage rolls.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2012-08-18 at 09:27 AM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    Oh, this is always a work in progress. We're using the monk right now in two current campaigns, and I'm actively working on a revision of it right now. Good point about the feat; I'll make an adjustment.

    Since I'm here, let me solicit anyone who's using this monk right now for your experiences:

    Gaming experience is showing that the monk's damage output is a bit on the high side when compared to members of other striker-type classes, and that other classes need higher levels of optimization to reach its damage output. Is this also your experience with it? I'm considering whether or not I should remove the benefit that grants Wisdom bonus to damage rolls.
    Are you sure it's the Wisdom bonus only? Also, at what range does the Wisdom bonus begins being too much and at what moment stops being too much?

    Playtesting should always be done at a much wider range than usual, as what may seem abusive at once may become a liability at higher levels. If you usually play between levels 1-6, then optimizing for Strength and Wisdom may seem like a lot (it's two full scores added, not like adding one and a half times your Strength to damage when wielding a two-handed weapon). I recall you mentioned a long time ago that it was easier to optimize two different scores than optimize one; I'd hate to say that backfired on you.

    When I worked on the Warmage, I made a nice table using a bit of data compiled from the Monster Manual, which was the average/maximum HP totals, and then threw a table (with graph) figuring how the Warmage's Edge worked as usual and as I proposed. The way I proposed, on average, followed pretty closely the curve that the average amount of HP made. That was using a single Fireball, with its damage dice cranked up to 20 (as the other bit I suggested for Warmage Edge increases the damage dice cap), and using both the average result for Fireball damage dice and the maximum result (as if you had used Maximize Spell) alongside the bonus damage to figure that out. It always took 2 Fireballs to beat a single enemy, and since that's the average HP for each level (compared to CR), that means it was right on the spot. People insist it's too much, but always seek to change Warmage Edge to Charisma (to make it even SADder) and to nerf the damage potential a bit (because most people using the game tend to see the damage is pretty high), but I also have to see the table results AND what I also playtested.

    From 'brewer to 'brewer, I'd recommend you do the same. If the problem is at low levels, it's probably because people are optimizing both scores, so it may seem a bit inflated (remember you also add Wis to attack rolls, so the chances of landing a hit is higher; that influences the actual damage done, and weighs the total damage usually higher, in comparison to other classes' damage output). If the problem is at high levels, I see another culprit: the huge amount of unarmed strike damage PLUS the amount of attacks you can land. Remember all the tricks you've added and those that already exist still remain in play; any time that you can pull off a full attack routine at higher levels, that's 4d6/6d6 plus two scores (which can be left at a reasonably high level) plus the bonus from your magical fists (up to a +5), and that's 5 hits. With Str, Wis, and enhancement bonuses to attack rolls, you might be hitting more than you think (and at least three hits will land), so you'll end up dealing much more damage than your average Rogue/Ninja/Spellthief by virtue of how weighed damage influences.

    Compare, for example, to how a Rogue with Dust of Disappearance and chucking Alchemist's Fires/Frosts/Sparks or Acid fares against your Monk at each level. At low levels you'll see the results as expected, but at higher levels you may see quite the difference (because while the Monk is hitting normal AC, the rogue is hitting touch AC while flat-footed, so the total amount of AC will be definitely lower). The total amount of weighed damage will influence a lot, but the resources used by the Rogue are equally more. This is assuming equal degrees of optimization, so the Monk is quite probably sporting by that level Periapts of Wisdom and Gloves of Ogre/Belts of Giant Strength, so the damage output will be higher.

    Try, if you want, to not add Wis to Str, but instead replace Str with Wis. Does that seem to resolve your problem? If it still doesn't, then you'll probably notice the problem is different.

    I have the hunch the problem is somewhere else, but that may be my mind playing tricks on me. Perhaps you don't have to remove the Wisdom bonus to damage rolls, but rather shift it or apply it to a lesser degree; otherwise, someone who barely optimize might observe the Monk sucking just as much as it did before, and that's not your goal, isn't it? It's not the same to draw conclusions from players with an eye for optimization than to draw it from NPCs with elite arrays and less WBL than your players.
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  7. - Top - End - #217
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    It's not necessarily the Wisdom bonus per se, but rather, the Wisdom to damage feature is easy to remove without upsetting function of the rest of the class. Thus, if I have to cut damage output, that's the place to start.

    Currently, we are running a low-level monk in a campaign that has just hit level 2, and a high-level monk in a campaign that has just hit level 12. The level 2 monk is doing quite well and fits appropriately into the party, but is not yet of the level where he can stack too many options.

    The high-level monk is stacking a monk's belt, Superior Unarmed Strike, Snap Kick, and +Dex and +Wis items. With Dex 20 and Wis 22, this gives him an unarmed damage of 6d6+11. He makes between 4 and 6 attacks per round, depending on whether he can full attack and whether he is hasted. His attack routine with Snap Kick is +20/+20/+20/+15, so most of his hits will land, especially in fights against numerous lower-CR opponents. His damage output thus averages about 90 - 180 per round, depending on circumstances. He performs noticeably worse in boss fights where his attacks tend to miss much more often. Combining his Sun School feat with Empty Step, there is very little that can prevent him from making at least 4 attacks per round.

    We run fairly high-op games, so these numbers aren't completely beyond the pale, but my concern is that it was easy for him to do this. He's using two popular monk feats and three common magic items to do this. It's not an obscure or fiendishly clever build. So, as mentioned, I'm kind of on the razor edge between "meh" and "oh jeez".
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  8. - Top - End - #218
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    It kinda seems that deliberately making things optimisable is hard. It's easy to make something do a lot of damage, but it seems that making it possible to do damage if you really try is incredibly difficult in anything as self-contained as most homebrew.
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    I'm playing your monk, and at 8th level (it's gestalt with a psion egoist though), and have 16 Dex and Wis, and a monks belt. I can attack with +15/+10, or +14/+14/+9, without being hastened, for 3d6+7 HP. He kicks ass against mooks, but usually almost dies against bosses since he has the lowest AC of our two meleers at 26 (19 before using Inertial Armor) and 61 health. I will say that I haven't caused an AoO the entire game, have jumped up onto a 12' high ledge, and will try to grapple anything that's even remotely my size.

    I think that the monk is designed as a crowd clearer - It's someone capable of rounding up all the mooks and disposing of them while the others work on the boss.

    our game is also a strange mix of over and underpowered. I know I didn't optimize, and I don't think the others did, but it's gestalt, with a free +1 template, and the DM has been throwing us a bit more than WBL.
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    It's not necessarily the Wisdom bonus per se, but rather, the Wisdom to damage feature is easy to remove without upsetting function of the rest of the class. Thus, if I have to cut damage output, that's the place to start.

    Currently, we are running a low-level monk in a campaign that has just hit level 2, and a high-level monk in a campaign that has just hit level 12. The level 2 monk is doing quite well and fits appropriately into the party, but is not yet of the level where he can stack too many options.

    The high-level monk is stacking a monk's belt, Superior Unarmed Strike, Snap Kick, and +Dex and +Wis items. With Dex 20 and Wis 22, this gives him an unarmed damage of 6d6+11. He makes between 4 and 6 attacks per round, depending on whether he can full attack and whether he is hasted. His attack routine with Snap Kick is +20/+20/+20/+15, so most of his hits will land, especially in fights against numerous lower-CR opponents. His damage output thus averages about 90 - 180 per round, depending on circumstances. He performs noticeably worse in boss fights where his attacks tend to miss much more often. Combining his Sun School feat with Empty Step, there is very little that can prevent him from making at least 4 attacks per round.

    We run fairly high-op games, so these numbers aren't completely beyond the pale, but my concern is that it was easy for him to do this. He's using two popular monk feats and three common magic items to do this. It's not an obscure or fiendishly clever build. So, as mentioned, I'm kind of on the razor edge between "meh" and "oh jeez".
    If I recall correctly (at least that's the consensus of the Playground), Superior Unarmed Strike and Monk's Belt do not stack. He's dealing damage as a 20th level monk while at 12th level, and what still worries you is that the Wis to damage hurts the character?

    Your own data tells you another story. In low levels, your monk's damage output is running fine; perhaps a bit higher, but nothing game-breaking. What seems to be the problem is the large amount of hit dice the monk has, coupled with the tricks to make the core Monk viable in terms of damage: I think the 6d6 is influencing a lot more in the damage output than the Wisdom bonus.

    To explain further: the Wis bonus the character has adds a +6 bonus to damage, with the caveat that it also adds a +6 to the attack bonus. The damage dice deal an average of 15 points per blow, while the actual amount is supposed to be half of that (7.5 points of damage). The Monk qualifies for Improved Natural Attack, the third leg on damage optimization, and with Enlarge Person/Extension it gains two damage dice increases. Either one can raise the Monk's damage output at least to 8d6 (the damage for a Colossal weapon) and through calculation may end up close to 10d6-12d6 points. Here's where the damage escalation comes up; treating unarmed strike damage as size increases ends up boosting damage far faster than you'd think. You mention there's little options at 2nd level to deal insane amounts of damage; I just casually pointed two (which grant 1d8-2d6 points of damage plus the bonus). You should reconsider the damage dice increase, if that worries you too much; after all, Wisdom damage increases can only reach so far.

    Even then, it doesn't reach the exorbitant amounts of damage with full-bore optimization with the core Monk. You're basically shooting your own class in the foot because of how easy it is to optimize it at later levels, even if you state that it clears well low-level mooks but still has some challenge with proper or over-CR mooks.
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    Quote Originally Posted by T.G. Oskar View Post
    If I recall correctly (at least that's the consensus of the Playground), Superior Unarmed Strike and Monk's Belt do not stack. He's dealing damage as a 20th level monk while at 12th level, and what still worries you is that the Wis to damage hurts the character?
    Well, sure. The extra damage gained from the feat and the belt is an average of +7 per hit. The extra damage gained from Wisdom is +6 per hit. The two are equivalent.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2012-08-19 at 09:12 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    And a twf build in any party that features a bard with optimized inspire courage and dragonfire inspiration could be dealing a comparable level of damage. And there are Charger builds that can not only match but exceed it at that level.

    And that's not even getting into things that DMM clerics or Natural spell druids can and will do.
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    I think the problem is that he can do it WITHOUT needing any help or optimisation.
    Besides, what if the monk has a dragonfire bard? They make enough attacks for that to hurt.
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    And the Druid and Cleric and Charger barbarian or Paladin all continue to laugh.


    I'm actually playing your Monk in a home brew Oriental Adventures game, and I'm focusing on Trips and Grapples and when I can get the feat's bullsrushing. Right now it's a lot of fun and the party loves me to death cause I keep making there lives that much easier.

    The DM also loves me cause I've got the skills to be a knowledge monkey so I keep rolling knowledge checks on crap and he get's to hand out all this neat information and fluff and even useful details.
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    And a twf build in any party that features a bard with optimized inspire courage and dragonfire inspiration could be dealing a comparable level of damage. And there are Charger builds that can not only match but exceed it at that level.

    And that's not even getting into things that DMM clerics or Natural spell druids can and will do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    I think the problem is that he can do it WITHOUT needing any help or optimisation.
    Besides, what if the monk has a dragonfire bard? They make enough attacks for that to hurt.
    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    And the Druid and Cleric and Charger barbarian or Paladin all continue to laugh.
    I actually laugh at the last proposal. Really, a charger Paladin?

    jiriku's concern is essentially what Lix mentioned: he's worried that only a modicum of optimization is granting a huge load of damage. Your retort is that something heavily optimized for damage deals a whole lot more. It's a question of proportions and options.

    You have to look at the question from the right proportion. jiriku's actual concern is that, with options expected to boost the Monk's power, the class deals a solid amount of damage. To put it in perspective, he's mentioning that only TWO feats, a specialized item for Monks, and items that are essential to ANY build (stat-boosting items) grant at 12th level the ability to deal a whole lot of damage. He actually agrees that it's not enough compared to other types, but that the ease of damage output worries him.

    Now, look at the DFI Bard. The bard needs, at the very least, three feats (Song of the Heart, Dragonfire Inspiration, plus Dragontouched to qualify; if you want the SPECIFIC type of damage, you have to choose a particular race OR get Draconic Heritage with a specific type of dragon, so that's a choice of race and a choice of feat), then get Inspirational Boost (one of your 1st level spells), THEN get Words of Creation (yet another feat). Add a Vest of Legends and you can see how you can grant somewhere around 6d6-10d6 points of energy damage per hit to everybody. Comparatively, the Bard needs 3-5 feats, a spell and perhaps an item to grant insane amounts of damage. That's more optimization than the Monk requires, as the Monk only needs three books (PHB, DMG and Tome of Battle) to the Bard's 5 (PHB, DMG II, Spell Compendium, Dragon Magic, Book of Exalted Deeds) and the amount of resources expended is likewise large (2 feats, 3 items versus 3-5 feats, 1 item, 1 spell, and potentially lock race and/or alignment).

    Let's compare a DMM Cleric as well. A DMM Cleric needs three feats (Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic [Persistent Spell]), possibly Extra Turning, and a whole bunch of Nightsticks. To duplicate the monk's damage potential, it has to deal a minimum of 5 hits, all of them with a reasonable to-hit chance, and deal somewhere along the lines of 6d6+11 points of damage per hit. With Divine Power and Righteous Might persisted, a two-handed weapon enchanted with Greater Magic Weapon (extended, of course), and maybe one or two more things, you can duplicate the effect; however, you're subject to dispelling. Once again, it's a quite complex amount of steps to duplicate what the Monk can do in only a few steps, and do well (recall that the highest attack bonus is +20, a combination of the Monk's BAB plus the bonuses from Dexterity and Wisdom).

    The one character that can easily surpass the Monk in preparation is the Natural Spell Druid, because it only needs one thing to optimize: Natural Spell. Sure, you can optimize a bit further (Venomfire + Fleshraker), but just choosing a bear and mauling everything with Lion's Charge and three attacks works pretty plausibly. If you were to optimize the Monk and the Druid for damage potential to their limits, the Druid would truly laugh at the Monk.

    The Charger Paladin, on the other hand, is the complete opposite of the spectrum. To make a proper Paladin, you need at least three feats (Mounted Combat, Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge), a specific weapon (Lance), a specific ACF (Charging Smite), a specific weapon enhancement (Valorous), a special mount that's worthwhile, a spell (Rhino's Rush) and a way to deal that damage many times (Pouncing Charge? Travel Devotion?). Just a single charge is enough, but it sets you up as a one-trick pony that eventually loses steam. Setting a Charger Paladin requires QUITE a lot of heavy optimization, unlike the Monk, which is jiriku's concern in the first place.

    Now, the whole deal with it is that the Monk's damage output with only a modicum of optimization is not overwhelming, but actually decent enough. With little optimization granting high returns, you can thus open to diversification, expanding some of your other options. If it works phenomenally well with one thing and still can pull off others pretty well, that sets it up right on Tier 3, which is his goal. Comparing Tier 1 options is just...well, misguiding, and comparing a low-op Tier 3 class with a high-op Tier 5 class sorta misses the point. With an equal degree of optimization, the Monk deals a reasonable amount of damage, but the Cleric and the Druid still win because of the breadth of options, whereas the Paladin will suffer because of their lack thereof. His concern is that he simply made things too easy; the proper answer is to address whether that concern is valid or not. Using the equivalent of hyperboles doesn't help to address that concern.
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    Quote Originally Posted by firebrandtoluc View Post
    My friend is currently playing a paladin. It's way outside his normal zone. I told him to try to channel Santa Claus, Mr. Rogers, and Kermit the Frog. Until someone refuses to try to get off the naughty list. Then become Optimus Prime.
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    Ok, if his concern is that it was too easy, then no, it wasn't.


    See, it shouldn't be difficult to make the character do cool/nice things. That was one of the things Tome of Battle did really, really, really well. Anything in the book that was grabbed cause it looked cool was almost certainly just that, cool. Plus, it worked more or less the way you wanted it to 8-9 out of 10 times.

    People want the monk to punch things and cause them to stay down, and do it quickly while just moving all over the freaking place like something out of an action movie. they want to feel Like Neo, or Jet Li, or Chuck Norris, or Bruce Lee, or Jean Claude Van Damn. Or something out of an old Wuxia Legend. Or, yes, maybe an Anime.

    And they want to be able to do this with out years of work and building up system mastery, just to accomplish something significantly less powerful then let's say, rewriting all of reality.

    So, if your dealing strong damage and still have a couple of interesting tricks beyond "I walk up and hit it in the face.", particularly when that in no way helps solve the problem, and this is being done with little work on the part of the player, then your on the right track.



    I know I loved just having to pick a few feats, more then half of which were easy to find, and be able to be really good at the things I wanted to be good at for the Monk I'm playing.
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    While the level of optermisation for this is relatively low it's in part due to the monks belt an item added to "fix" the monk being weak and not having as much to spend wealth on. If I was going to make any fix it would be to see how well the monk works with that item removed or increased in price. Rather than change a class that works well in every way bar that one item, from my experience with it.

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    Ok, if his concern is that it was too easy, then no, it wasn't.

    See, it shouldn't be difficult to make the character do cool/nice things. That was one of the things Tome of Battle did really, really, really well. Anything in the book that was grabbed cause it looked cool was almost certainly just that, cool. Plus, it worked more or less the way you wanted it to 8-9 out of 10 times.
    Of course doing cool/nice things shouldn't be hard.

    Doing a lot of damage is not 'doing cool/nice things.
    Doing decent damage is necessary. Doing optimised damage without optimisation is NOT.
    if you're playing in a game where optimisation is necessary, why aren't you a wizard/cleric/druid?
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    Cause there are only so many ways to make a bear riding a bear leading a bear army and shooting bears entertaining after awhile, and it's nice to want to pick up a different theme and actually have that option?

    And dealing a lot of damage is nothing more then doing cool martial arts moves and then having them actually hit the mark and succeed in taking down the target. Which, in general, is part of what makes the moves cool and the sort of thing you want to do in general.
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    What makes 6d6 cooler than 3d6?
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    It isn't, if 3d6 successfully takes down the target and that's what you wanted to do. If you don't want to take down the target on the swing, it doesn't matter if it's 3d6 or 6d6. If you do, and 3d6 is enough, then it still doesn't matter. If, however, you do, and 3d6 either doesn't or can't do it, but rolling 3 more d6 changes that form "He get's hit and stays standing the swings back" to "He takes it right to the temple and topples like a house of cards.", then 6d6 was that much cooler.

    A stream lined example but I don't feel like writing out a massive fight scene with 2 different endings to make the point.
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    So... you want the fight scene to go /exactly/ as you want?
    Then... why are you playing an rpg, and not writing a story?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    No, but I do want to play someone who's got at what he does. I want to feel like I'm capable and cool.

    And that requires me to win more often then loose, both in major fights and minor one's. Cause that's generally what being good means.
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    And do you have to win on the first hit? Cause really two hits may as well be five hits. It's only one hit that is majorly cooler than any other amount.
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    Considering that in this game failing to drop an enemy fast can very often be fatal, yeah.
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    Then you need a DM who doesn't give you overkilly stuff? :/
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    Or a class that can actually take CR appropriate challenges.
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    Or a class that can actually take CR appropriate challenges.
    Considering a lot of the CR monsters in 3.5 aren't actually fit for whatever level they're set to (I mean, a good chunk of them are, but your DM might be making the mistake, I don't know), I wouldn't call it a problem of the class being inadequate, I'd call it as the DM not knowing how powerful of beasties he's throwing @ his enemies.

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    Whoa, this is going out of proportion!

    Is it really necessary to debate about why enough damage is/not necessary to have fun in the game? If it were about me, I wouldn't mind all the damage: regardless of the relatively "low" optimization, it still requires a few feat and item choices to make it work as-is, whereas the core Monk can deal nearly five times the dynamic part of the dice (around the same level, with Monk's Belt, and then getting INA, Expansion and probably something else in order to stack size increases, or having Greater Mighty Wallop). Compared to that, the increase from Wisdom is small. The advantage of the latter is its static nature, which makes it able to increase through critical hits (but you're working with an unarmed strike, which doesn't have the best crit range OR crit multiplier) and deals sure damage, but I've constantly stressed the idea that the damage dice is perhaps a bit too exaggerate, and could be changed without harming the Monk that much.

    Now, I would debate on whether the Monk can do more than just "punch things really hard", because reducing the damage ratio of the class might somewhat nerf it, considering jiriku's focus is on "mobile skirmisher". Isn't the point to deal a nice amount of damage instead of debating that's "too much", even if it requires optimization (little, but it requires such). I'd consider having taken something too far if I had the idea of "mobile skirmisher" and then made him a better tank than the Crusader (something which wasn't the whole point); however, if he can deal quite a bit of damage without sacrificing movement, then it's fine. Can the playtest character pull off all the attacks after movement, or just about 2? jiriku mentions Snap Kick, plus his flurry works during pouncing or Spring Attacking, so it relies on a specific set of tactics (either stand still and flurry, or move and flurry; if the enemy is airborne and the Monk can't get him, he's toast, and high jump can only take him that far). If, to that, you insist that damage is too little, then it seems you're losing the focus of the class.

    However, it's incorrect to support the other argument based on hyperboles, such as "the Cleric and the Druid can do that, so the Monk must". Ideally, it should be "the Rogue and the Warblade and the Swordsage can, so the Monk should as well". Can the Rogue do loads of damage as effectively as the Monk? Can the Warblade do the same? Does the Swordsage still eclipse the Monk? Those should be the questions answered, rather than comparing them to high Tier classes or considering X amount of damage too much when the focus of the class is high damage and superior mobility (and dabbling into party face and infiltration).

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    Oskar's right on the money here.

    A big focus of my 'brew has been to cheapen attack options, freeing resources to spend on versatility. However, players don't have to spend extra resources on versatility. They can spend them on stacking more attack options, thus creating an unbalanced character. It's great if there's 10 ways to deal x damage; that allows for varied play styles. But it's bad if a player stacks them for 10x damage.

    I like the non-stacking interpretation of monk's belt and Superior Unarmed Strike. Really, nobody needs the ability to do something at class level +9. This honors the basic feedback I'm hearing, that the monk works well out-of-the-box. It also curtails excessive option-stacking.
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