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  1. - Top - End - #241
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    It's great if there's 10 ways to deal x damage; that allows for varied play styles. But it's bad if a player stacks them for 10x damage.

    I like the non-stacking interpretation of monk's belt and Superior Unarmed Strike.
    There's your fix right there. Make Superior Unarmed Strike a named bonus the same as Monk's Belt, or simply say they don't stack. I've seen similar in Wizards material talking about Wizards and Spell Penetration, no reason Monks are exempt.

    Although mid game you still might have a problem since there's two bonuses to attack/damage. That alone makes it easier to buy for since you won't run into the "named bonuses don't stack" problem like other classes will. If a Rogue wants to stack Dex, there's only so many ways he can do it before it becomes prohibitively expensive to get the numbers he wants. A Monk can say well the +6Wis I want is too high, but +3Wis and a +3Dex items are much cheaper.

    Can't see it being a game changer, but it would definitely boost him that little bit for a while.

  2. - Top - End - #242
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    this truely is amazing. it vastly improves the standard 3.5 monk.
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  3. - Top - End - #243
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    Well, it's a Medium BAB Chassie, and it's not hard for a good dm to adjust for that with enemy's that either prioritize mobility so that the monk can't pin them down in large numbers every turn, thus giving the rest of the party time to do some killing, with enemy's that can take a significant beating and thus will take a round or two to drop each, Trolls coming to mind just for a MMI example off the top of my head, or enemy's that are good at not taking straight hits for full damage. Just a human with a tower shield get's a 50% miss chance right there. Or a human with a spiked chain and an enlarge person spell tripping targets.



    And all that's being done with little to know spell casting, and no spell casting above 1st lvl spells. That's entirely reasonable for a mid level party to be fighting.
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  4. - Top - End - #244
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    @LordErebus: Thank you!

    We'll make the adjustment to non-stackingness during our next game session. We'll see how it plays, as there's likely to be a lot of combat in the next game session. The PCs walked right into an ambush in the last game and barely escaped with their lives. The monk's mobility saved the day, however, allowing him to grab the phylactery they were after just before they teleported out (pity it was a fake ).

    10/28/2012 Update: The non-stacking adjustment smoothed group balance rather well. I'm finding that the monk still pushes the envelope on damage output, however, and that in particular boss fights are over too soon. I am considering moving the +Wis to damage feature out of the class and into the Eagle Claw Attack feat, which will have the effect of slightly slowing the power progression of monk players who want to stack feats in order to deal insane damage. Still mulling it over.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2012-10-29 at 09:39 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #245
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    I WANT TO PLAY THIS CLASS
    *convulses on the floor*

  6. - Top - End - #246
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    Thank you! You'll be glad to know that if you convulse on the floor while playing this class, it's rather easy to make the Tumble check to stand up again as a free action on your next turn.
    D&D Remix for 3.x: balanced base classes and feats, all in the authentic flavor of the originals. Newest: shadowcaster. Most popular: monk and fighter.

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  7. - Top - End - #247
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    Quote Originally Posted by zzuxon View Post
    I WANT TO PLAY THIS CLASS
    *convulses on the floor*
    You need to. This is easily my favorite monk fix of all time, and just plain fun to play.
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  8. - Top - End - #248
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    I've just gotta say that I love this design for the Monk class. It maintains that same Monk feel while becoming far better at what it should be able to do.
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  9. - Top - End - #249
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    This is amazing! Shame I'll never find a game/DM to play it in, most likely...

    EDIT: Probably obvious, but just for clarification purposes...

    1. I assume Dance with the Elements' bonus to Jump is in addition to the general +4 you get per 10 ft of speed above 30 ft.

    2. I assume the speed bonus, like the original monk's fast movement and the haste spell, applies to any movement mode you have a listed speed for. So someone drops a Fly spell on the monk, it applies to that; monk is an aquatic race with a swim speed, it applies to that; and so forth....

    And you know, I was thinking... Dance With the Elements should also benefit climb. And consider at some point adding the ability to cut the jump DC for vertical by half. With a DC of 4 per 1 ft jumped, even if you have a jump check of 100, you're only leaping 25 ft up.
    Last edited by StreamOfTheSky; 2012-11-18 at 01:31 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #250
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    1. Yes

    2. Yes

    Good suggestion! I'll add that to my idea hopper for the monk update I'm working on.
    D&D Remix for 3.x: balanced base classes and feats, all in the authentic flavor of the originals. Newest: shadowcaster. Most popular: monk and fighter.

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  11. - Top - End - #251
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    Love this redesign, currently polishing a character based on it. Couple questions though:

    • If I have Fists of Iron, can I use it multiple times during a flurry?
    • Do I understand correctly that each advancement of ki strike after the first grants an additional property to a monk's unarmed strikes, so that by 20th level they will be considered a magical, adamantine, alchemical silver, cold iron and lawful weapon? Or is the monk just supposed to select one of these properties?
    Last edited by Jojomo; 2012-12-07 at 06:06 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #252
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    Quote Originally Posted by Jojomo View Post
    If I have Fists of Iron, can I use it multiple times during a flurry?
    Normally you cannot, because you can only use Stunning Fist once per round. However, I think there's a feat somewhere that lets you use Stunning Fist multiple times per round. If you had that, then you could do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jojomo View Post
    Do I understand correctly that each advancement of ki strike after the first grants an additional property to a monk's unarmed strikes, so that by 20th level they will be considered a magical, adamantine, alchemical silver, cold iron and lawful weapon?
    Yes exactly. Monks are quite good at overcoming damage reduction.
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  13. - Top - End - #253
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    Should an undead (or non-living construct) monk become an outsider upon achieving enlightenment? Because that creates a whole bunch of headaches.
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  14. - Top - End - #254
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    Any specific examples of the trouble that might occur?
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  15. - Top - End - #255
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    They suddenly have a con score again, is the first one
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  16. - Top - End - #256
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    While technically true with a narrow reading of the rules, interpreting the rules with a reasonable mindset resolves that problem. Are there any rules conflicts created that defy attempts at a common-sense solution?
    D&D Remix for 3.x: balanced base classes and feats, all in the authentic flavor of the originals. Newest: shadowcaster. Most popular: monk and fighter.

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  17. - Top - End - #257
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    While technically true with a narrow reading of the rules, interpreting the rules with a reasonable mindset resolves that problem. Are there any rules conflicts created that defy attempts at a common-sense solution?
    The Undead type has a whole host of immunities and such built right into it. Losing that, strictly speaking, severs those immunities, not to mention all the feats that require being Undead. You might cry "common sense" again, but really, it isn't all that common, and it at least deserves a mention in the description of the ability.
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  18. - Top - End - #258
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    Can't remember if I posted this as feedback before but wanted to share my results. Played as designed except without the WIS to hit and damage (mostly to get the DM to agree to using homebrew). The character is 7 monk/3 paladin with a focus on movement feats like leap of the heavens and tactical feats like improved trip. There is also using able learner to allow use magic device as a class skill (may not be RAW, but DM allowed).

    The result is I can deal damage a bit below the party barbarian, unless I use smite evil and/or a spell like rhino charge. In the latter case, I can do burst damage paired with a stun attack that has a high DC (thanks to ascetic knight) that is impressive. That said, the best part of the class is that I haven't had to focus on getting damage up (no monk belt, no damage increase feats), so I can describe things like running up a wall and jumping so I can charge an opponent from above. Or the moment when the DM realized I could stand as a free action after failing to trip an opponent.

    Having multi-classing that actually works means I can have a fearless medium fighter that has okay AC, insane saves, and enough versatility that I can charge into battle knowing I can probably survive any mishap while still having a chance to affect the battle more than just annoying the big bad.

    The remix could be used to max damage (such as using the improved ki strike to get elemental damage) or it can be used to max versatility or role playing. I think it should be up to the player and the DM to decide which is appropriate for the campaign.

    The Wis to attack and damage hasn't been missed at all, except it might be nice to have just for opposed checks like trips, disarm, and grapple.

  19. - Top - End - #259
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    In regards to the above post:

    I personally rather liked grabbing several tricks through feats and affiliations to build an Int SAD monk. Sure, Dex helped, and I needed about a 13 in Str for feat prerequisites and a number higher then 0 for wis and cha, but I had pretty much everything running off Int. It was actually really cool to just need to pump that one stat and fluff it as my intricate knowledge of Ki control, the mechanics and lay out of all manner of bodies, and a mastery of getting the most out of physics of my own body. Add focusing my skills on Knowledge Monkey with a bit of dabbling into other roles for flavor and I was golden.

    This was particularly hilarious as with a few tricks form feats and affiliations and some fairly minimal gear, I had this Petite dude not even 5ft tall running around a setting were everyone else seemed to be built like they were auditioning for Conan The Barbarian or Red Sonja respectively, and I was still kicking ass.
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    Hi, Jiriku! thanks for the past clarifications of my inquiry on alternate class feature progression. Now, I would just like to point out that you still had that (very minor) typo on your Ascetic Rogue ACF from before.
    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    Special: If you replace either the monk's unarmed strike damage progression or the rogue's sneak attack with an alternate class feature, your monk and sorcerer levels stack when determining the progression of that alternate feature. You may still qualify for this feat, although its prerequisites will differ. Your DM will assign an appropriate set of replacement prerequisites.
    Emphasis mine. Just thought every little bit of help/critique counts.

    As for feedback, I had only one campaign where I managed to roll your monk. Unfortunately, it quickly fizzled just a page or two after. And everywhere else where I applied for a monk character never took off. So I am still looking forward to finally using this awesome fix, especially the more monk-friendly Ascetic Rogue ACF. Wish me luck!
    Last edited by ben-zayb; 2013-02-22 at 10:51 PM.

  21. - Top - End - #261
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    Everyone, thanks for all the excellent feedback and play results! I'm really pleased that this work is allowing so many people to enjoy playing a monk.

    Monk 2.0 is in the works, and while I haven't made final decisions, the changes I'm planning include:
    • A significant nerf to Empty Strike
    • A significant buff to Moment of Perfection and Timeless Body
    • A revamp of the monk bonus feat options
    • A revamp of some of the "ki" line of feats to produce a usable bonus feat path
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  22. - Top - End - #262
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    Might I suggest killing the "Improved Ki" feats and taking their stuff?

    Seriously. Give the monk a "ki progression table" of ki attack/defence abilities known. Limit how many are active at a given time (total level of abilities active?), modest cost to switch up which are active.

    A feat could grant more known, or meta ki feats that modify what a ki ability does (if flaming fists is a level 1 ki attack for +1d6 damage, enhanced flaming fists is +3d6 as a level 2 ki attack).

    What is more fantasy monk-like than a character that can set their hands on fire?

  23. - Top - End - #263
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed



    Why are you nerfing Empty Strike at all, let alone significantly?!

    I LIKE that feature. It, along with the dex to attack/damage, singlehandedly fixes MAD, limits of medium BAB, *and* the monk's damage and maneuver check bonus problems.

    Why on earth would you nerf that?

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post


    Why are you nerfing Empty Strike at all, let alone significantly?!

    I LIKE that feature. It, along with the dex to attack/damage, singlehandedly fixes MAD, limits of medium BAB, *and* the monk's damage and maneuver check bonus problems.

    Why on earth would you nerf that?
    I second this notion! That ability makes it possible to build a Monk who can keep up with a str based melee using a two handed weapon (You know, for that 1+1/2 times str. Or x2 str with exotic weapons and one level of exotic weapons master.) Why would you not want to let your "punchy/trippy/grapply/bulls-rushy or your twfey monk NOT be able to make a respectable showing by comparison?
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    Guys, let jiriku finish his new monk before you tear it apart. There will be plenty of time for righteous indignation later.
    The name is "tonberrian", even when it begins a sentence. It's magic, I ain't gotta 'splain why.

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post


    Why are you nerfing Empty Strike at all, let alone significantly?!
    It might just be turned into a feat with a minimum level requirement. That would be fairly significant while still letting you play a damage monk if you so desire. The problem in a lot of campaigns is homebrew against vanilla, so if you're playing with vanilla warriors then losing Empty Strike is kind of justified. In a higher power level campaign then having it as a feat would allow the monk to grow in power while limiting the amount of damage feats he can take.

    You'll be a bit MAD prior to the feat, but a lot less than the vanilla class.

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    I have to ask something here... How is dr 20 (at level 20) anything even vaguely useful? Most of the melee characters in my groups can frequently hit 40 damage... at level 7. The party does 100's a round with good rolls. At level 20? Ha give me DR 100/- as a challenge.
    Last edited by flamewolf393; 2013-05-13 at 04:56 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    As for the undead monk, dont worry about it. On the official type ranking pyramid, outsider and undead are both top level that cannot be over-ridden any further. So keep both. Be an undead-outsider with both types. For the flavor, Undead already have a tie to a negative energy plane, just strengthen that tie, make it a little more prominent in their nature.

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    Quote Originally Posted by flamewolf393 View Post
    I have to ask something here... How is dr 20 (at level 20) anything even vaguely useful? Most of the melee characters in my groups can frequently hit 40 damage... at level 7. The party does 100's a round with good rolls. At level 20? Ha give me DR 100/- as a challenge.
    Well, it does apply to each hit, not per round; someone using a ton of natural weapons and flurrying is going to feel the pinch unless they can break it. (DR 20/- on someone who makes 15+ attacks per round is a solid 300 damage less, which is nothing to sneeze at.) For that matter, even if it only reduces damage by 15% or less, it's still having some effect.

    Finally, it's unlikely that monsters do as much damage per hit as optimized melee PCs, and since this is designed as a primarily PC ability to help against NPCs or monsters, that's the relevant case.

    Quote Originally Posted by flamewolf393 View Post
    As for the undead monk, dont worry about it. On the official type ranking pyramid, outsider and undead are both top level that cannot be over-ridden any further.
    The type pyramid is an artifact of 3.0; it no longer exists, and a 3.5 creature can only be of one type. Also, the problems of having, or not having, a Con score, immunities relating to not being alive, and so on are not resolved by handwaving some sort of Heisenberg uncertainty monk.
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Monk Remixed

    I would agree. DR should be considered in light of multiple attacks. For example, my remixed fighter is capable of making not less than 6 attacks per round at level 20. If 5 of those attacks land, the monk is spared 100 damage; that's the equivalent of 2/3 of a heal spell.

    Too, in high-op games, DR is just the last link in the chain of your overall damage mitigation strategy, which should include action denial, battlefield control, tactical placement, immunities, miss chance, armor class/spell resistance/saving throws, and finally damage reduction/energy resistance. The monk has the convenience of having DR "in the can" and not needing to go buy it from an (overpriced) item or feat or beg it from an allied spellcaster.
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