Test of Spite [3.5]

[imperialspectre]

Sorry for the double-post, but this post is from me, not Penny Dreadful Gaming as a whole.

First off, the release is mostly for ToS people, partly because you guys are awesome critics -cough- I meant evaluators, and partly because we absolutely wouldn't be doing this without Test of Spite.

Second, direct criticism, flames, and suggestion to either Jake (Doc Roc) or myself. PMs are fine, or you can use the email address listed as owner on gdox.

Third, I'm really excited about this, especially after the amazing reaction and help many of you gave us for War-Marked.

Edit: And of course this one shows up on a new page, instead of the previous one. Check the previous page for the important announcement.

[sofawall]

This is going to be stream of consciousness as I read it. Just a warning.

HD=Level: Just for PCs, or is an Ogre (for example, I know it will be eventually changed) treated as a level 4 as well?

Barbarian:

• Powerful Rage: Isn't that what made Half-Minotaur so ridiculous?
• Heart of Fury: And how do the temp HP work?
• Cleave: "Normal melee damage" is going to be ambiguous, I can tell.
• Whirlwind: See above.
• Disrupting Presence: DNE?
• Terrifying Presence: How about "At the start of your turn" instead of "On your turn"? How long does it last?
• Shiva's Charge: See Cleave
• Greater Readiness: Is an action type necessary?
• Path of the Ancestors: Seems a tad weaker overall.

Moving onto Monk now... I'll send this to one or both of you, but posting it here helps me get my thoughts in order.

Oh, also, Jake? Seeing Jacob listed as an author made me think, "Wait, where's Jake?" I seriously had to think for a few.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Wow, 38 pages!?!

You guys have been working hard on this one...I'll send you anything interesting I find when I'm done...

[Doc Roc]

Wow, 38 pages!?!

You guys have been working hard on this one...I'll send you anything interesting I find when I'm done...

This is a little less than half what we got. Brace for impact. :)

[Il_Vec]

Just... Got... Rick... Rolld... By... a... Rogue... 's... Track...

Path of the Ancestors: Seems a tad weaker overall.

Mettle, Fast Healing, Bonus to Init... It might not be as flashy, but didn't strike me as weak...

[imperialspectre]

This is going to be stream of consciousness as I read it. Just a warning.

HD=Level: Just for PCs, or is an Ogre (for example, I know it will be eventually changed) treated as a level 4 as well?

See, that's the key to Legend's mechanical balance. I actually wrote up a sample statblock for an Ogre - a 3rd-level Giant (that's one track) with the Ranger's Tracking Discipline and the Barbarian's Path of Destruction. Statblock follows:

Ogre, CR 3
Large Giant (Tracking Discipline primary, Path of Destruction secondary)
Hit Dice: 3d10+16 (46)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 40 feet
Armor Class: 14 (+3 level, +1 item, -1 Dexterity, +2 natural, -1 size)
Base Attack: 3
Melee Attack: Head Crusha (Large-sized greatclub) +10 hit, 3d6+6 damage
Ranged Attack: Pointy Stick (Large-sized javelin) +4 hit, 2d6+6 damage
Space/Reach: 10 feet/10 feet
Special Attacks: Cleave
Special Qualities: Darkvision
Saves: Fortitude 8, Reflex 3, Will 3
Abilities: STR 22 (16 +2 racial +4 size), DEX 8 (12 -2 racial -2 size), CON 18 (14 +2 racial +2 size), INT 8 (10 -2 racial), WIS 14, CHA 8
Skills: Acrobatics +2, Athletics +9, Nature +2, Intimidate +2, Perception +5
Feats: TBD

The bottom line is, a PC can totally be an Ogre. And that PC would gain bits of the Giant track, the Tracking track (lol), and the Destruction track as the PC leveled. And we intend for it to be balanced that way.

Barbarian:

• Powerful Rage: Isn't that what made Half-Minotaur so ridiculous?
• Heart of Fury: And how do the temp HP work?
• Cleave: "Normal melee damage" is going to be ambiguous, I can tell.
• Whirlwind: See above.
• Disrupting Presence: DNE?
• Terrifying Presence: How about "At the start of your turn" instead of "On your turn"? How long does it last?
• Shiva's Charge: See Cleave
• Greater Readiness: Is an action type necessary?
• Path of the Ancestors: Seems a tad weaker overall.

This stuff is why it's in alpha. Some of them are results of poor writing and the fact that I handled all the proofing, and a couple are unanticipated problems. We'll cover these things in the beta, hopefully. Thanks. :)

[Il_Vec]

Off-topic...

Melee Attack: Head Crusha (Large-sized greatclub) +10 hit, 3d6+6 damage

Death by a Head Crusha. Head CRUSHA!
Megadeth anyone?

On topic:

Can you play it (the Ogre) from level 1? Monstrous characters never receive enough attention from WotC...

EDIT: Just realized, this actually isn't on topic...

[Doc Roc]

Off-topic...



Death by a Head Crusha. Head CRUSHA!
Megadeth anyone?

On topic:

Can you play it (the Ogre) from level 1? Monstrous characters never receive enough attention from WotC...

EDIT: Just realized, this actually isn't on topic...

Yes, you could.

[imperialspectre]

You can, in fact, play a succubus or a dragon from level 1, it's just that there's a special, additional track (called the Legendary track) that changes your type if you're one of the special Built of Awesome monsters. Like, for example, a real true wyrm, or an angel on track to be a solar. Succubi, on the other hand, basically are just a Rogue track, a generic mind-bending track, and the Fiend track (which we haven't written yet, but you get the picture).

[The Shadowmind]

Question with the tracks: With them does this mean a Barbarain who is Ancestral track, gains no class features till level 3? Or does the Barbarian get all three tracks, but can swap a track out with the yet-to-be released multiclass feature?

[Doc Roc]

It's the latter.

[The Shadowmind]

Ah, that makes it decent.
The Sage looks like it might make a decent replacement for most conditions a warlock/DFA would work in.

[imperialspectre]

That was the intent. "Warlock that doesn't suck" is how I described it to my friends.

[Adumbration]

It's the latter.

You should specify this somewhere - I was a little confused myself about that.

[Doc Roc]

Penny Dreadful Gaming presents Legend - Alpha Release, Non-Casting Classes only

The link's here. Enjoy.

Some notes:
Relics are here, though they will be in the economy section in the full release.

In the case of barbarian, you get all three tracks.
In general, if a reading of a class doesn't give you an ability at each level, it's a typo on our part, and you should ask a question about it so that we can fix it.

[term1nally s1ck]

Hm. Is there a release date for any races? I'd consider running a test campaign over the summer if we get enough stuff to make it mechanically viable. I have two campaign storylines in my head, and I was looking for a reason to run a second campaign to use the other storyline. This might well be it.


EDIT: Are you meant to be able to get 6x Cha to damage rolls? I suspect the base power level of these classes is a lot higher than before.

EDIT2: Rogue, Swashbuckler, L20 ability...what is the will save DC?

[PhoenixRivers]

Hm. Is there a release date for any races? I'd consider running a test campaign over the summer if we get enough stuff to make it mechanically viable. I have two campaign storylines in my head, and I was looking for a reason to run a second campaign to use the other storyline. This might well be it.


EDIT: Are you meant to be able to get 6x Cha to damage rolls? I suspect the base power level of these classes is a lot higher than before.

The working acronym was SUPR, if I recall correctly. It's designed to rebalance the game around the Sorceror's power level, I think.

[Il_Vec]

You should specify this somewhere - I was a little confused myself about that.

Yeah, it is not explicit anywhere. I only got it when I saw the Monk entry, the only one that reads: "All of the following are Monk class features:", and by the Paladin and Rogue, wich choose three tracks each from a larger pool.

[Doc Roc]

It would be better to say that it was a game designed to make classes which are close to the power-level of the sorcerer and are reasonable in the context of the game world. It's fast, but it's not going to be pure-rocket-tag anymore. We found some pretty slick tricks, that I think you'll enjoy when we release the monster-building kits.

To clarify paladin a little, you actually pick two tracks there, since judgment is a gimme. Paladin was basically my baby, so if there are problems with it, let me know and Daddy Fix.

Terminal, we expect to have you sufficient meat to run a game soon.

[sofawall]

So, rather than continue my post, I'll just post what I have. My internet died last night, so I saved it to notepad.

Much of this is fairly redundant and not really needed, but I want to make sure intent is clear in the document, as sometimes a forgotten sentence or word can change a whole feature. As Imp. Spec said, much of it is going to be fixed in Beta. My concern is that everything does get fixed in Beta, and thus the lists.

HD=Level: Just for PCs, or is an Ogre (for example, I know it will be eventually changed) treated as a level 4 as well?

Barbarian:

• Powerful Rage: Isn't that what made Half-Minotaur so ridiculous?
• Heart of Fury: And how do the temp HP work?
• Cleave: "Normal melee damage" is going to be ambiguous, I can tell.
• Whirlwind: See above.
• Disrupting Presence: DNE?
• Terrifying Presence: How about "At the start of your turn" instead of "On your turn"? How long does it last?
• Shiva's Charge: See Cleave
• Greater Readiness: Is an action type necessary?
• Path of the Ancestors: Seems a tad weaker overall.

Monk:

• Table: Why is there none?
• Flurry of Blows: I was about to make you define 'Attack Action' before remembering Full Attack and Attack are now one. However, I must know, does the -1 apply to all attacks (i.e. AoOs, etc.) or just the main attacks?
• Iron Fang, Stunning fist: Round up or down?
• Way of the Hydra, Hydra's Heads: Do they otherwise act as normal Mirror Images?
• Way of the Hydra, Hydra's Toxin: Are these classified as Poisons?
• Curse of Stolen Time: Do they lose their highest or lowest attack?
• Through the Clouds: Why not reuse the term "Natural Speed"? You just defined it and all.
• Empty Body: Dropping out of Etherealness is a free action?
• Ghost Step: I don't recall miss chances having the unit 'miles'.
• Dance of the Sun and Moon, Reckless Moon: The last line makes me very, very pleased.
• Diamond Soul: Freakin' SR again?
• Cloak of the Sun and Moon: You may want to specify you need to take the same aspect you took earlier.
• Cloak of the Sun and Moon, Careful Sun: See Iron Fang, Stunning Fist.
• Jade Heart: But not ability damage?

Paladin:

• The Knowing: So if you are aware of a creature's presence, so is The Knowing?
• The Few: Ah, Divinations. Major DM work here.
• The Light: Can others see the glow?
• The Truth: It must be the first thing you fail to save against? Like if you're facing an Adamantine Horror and a level 5 wizard, you must save against the Fireball doing ~9 damage, and then die to an Implosion? Also, area spells like Fireball, does the effect not come into play, or do you ignore it? Duration spells like Entangle, does the effect not come into play, do you ignore it for a round or do you ignore it for the duration?
• The Strong: So being healed in the grace period still means death? What about death due to, say, being turned to stone? Or disintegrate?
• The Blade and The Bow: ECL? Isn't it just level now, or is there still some messy LA going on?
• The Fire and The Ice: I support the indication of possible uses for an ability.
• The Just and The Unjust: Relic Sharing only happens with non-Paladins, and Relic Trading only happens with Paladins (ignoring for the moment multiclassing)?
• The Truth and The Folly: Does it ignore the top 2 miss chances, or what?
• The Quick and The Dead: Why does it seem to me that two Paladins working together are weaker than a Paladin and someone else? Is this intentional?
• Aleph and Null: I am in favor of using the term "adjustment" instead of "5-foot step", just on the off chance someone can make 10-foot steps. Define adjustment as a 5-foot step, for example.
• With Your Shield Or On It: I approve of designer intent made clear.
• Conflict: This can be multiplied now? Awesome. I have a pre-Alpha Paladin who needs an update.
• Escalation: A 'failed stun" is a passed save?
• Annihilation: My Paladin is so happy now.
• Scorched Earth: "Escalation Threshold"?
• War Engine: Does not stack with itself, or with anything?
• Dawnsign: One swift action to trigger all fonts?
• Rebirth: Healing to 50 hp might work better, as characters go down fairly far into the negatives sometimes.

3 classes, 14 pages. Ranger later.

[imperialspectre]

Monk:Table: Why is there none?

I have now edited a table into the PDF. There was a problem with copying a Google Docs table into Word, namely that the table became invisible when the PDF was made even though it looked just like the other tables in Word.

There's actually a factual discrepancy in the Monk class entry that will also be changed. Concerns are being noted for the next iteration of the PDF, so thanks for mentioning them.

Edit: One other thing: SR is actually useful in Legend, because methods of increasing caster level are much, much rarer. SR was a useful mechanic in 3.5, it's just that there were so many ways of breaking the RNG that it wasn't taken seriously.

[Doc Roc]

SR is also much rarer. In fact, I think pretty much only monk can get it, right now.

[Godskook]

Why are you keeping the term "CR" as a term? You're going with a tried and true system that's distinctly not the CR system, so why are you using the term. Its confusing and keeping a now meaningless term in your work bogs it down. There's no reason to learn it or waste paper explaining it.

[imperialspectre]

Because we are using CR (at least, a rebuilt version of it) for developing encounters. It's a fundamentally good system and one of the best balancing tools in existence.

[Godskook]

Because we are using CR (at least, a rebuilt version of it) for developing encounters. It's a fundamentally good system and one of the best balancing tools in existence.

Now you see, you're mixing your terms, too. Challenge Rating is individual to specific monsters. Encounter Level is the part of the system that's relevant once you've established how a monster's power compares to the PCs.

The key concept behind CR is that it maintains a measure of a monster's ability to challenge PCs while still saying CR != ECL. Since you've forced CR == ECL for all of Legends, you've done away with the whole point of CR.

[Doc Roc]

I think starting monday I'll be doing char sheet approvals. Let me know if anyone thinks there's something that needs a rush approval, say, for one of the challenges.

[Moonlitdreams]

I'm still spoiling for a quick fight. The character is Tier 4 or 3, but a rather ridiculous tier 3.

I can fight you. I've got a caster-type, about tier 3 I think.

[Glimbur]

I can fight you. I've got a caster-type, about tier 3 I think.

Thread. I don't care what arena we use, and I'd like as few buff rounds as possible.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Anyone want to fight my Tier 2 Minionmancer? I'm going to keep asking until someone answers...

[Eurus]

Since the college semester is over now and I have free time, I thought I'd go back and try to figure out how to make a decent Shadowcaster build again. But one thing has me a bit confused (okay, lots of things confuse me, but I only have one question for now). Does anyone have any idea how the Shadowcaster's bonus feats for paths known work with prestige classes? The relevant text:

Bonus Feats: Beginning at 2nd level, you gain bonus feats equal to half the total number of paths you have access to, rounded down. For instance, most shadowcasters know the first mystery of two different paths at 2nd level, so they gain one bonus feat. If you learn the first mystery of a third path at 3rd level, you still have only one bonus feat, but if you learn the first mystery of yet another path at 4th level, you know four paths, and therefore gain a second bonus feat. Thus, you have a choice: fully master fewer paths and gain access to more high-level mysteries, or branch out into more paths and gain more feats but fewer high-level mysteries. You do not gain a new bonus feat for repeating a path you already know, and fundamentals do not apply for the purpose of bonus feats.

You do not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, such as bonus feats for mystery paths known

Seems clear enough, unless you start as a Shadowcaster, take levels in a PrC, and then go back to Shadowcaster. Because a Shadowcaster has bonus feats "equal to half the total number of paths you have access to," it seems like you would retroactively get those feats that you missed from your PrC levels. Is there any reason that my assumption would be wrong? I know most people don't know much about Shadowcasting anyway (of all the Tome of Magic classes, it's got to be the least-known), but anyone with a good head for wording and logic should be able to help me out here.