Epic v.s Epic:

[Lord Loss]

Is there any way for an EL 20 character to defeat at lvl 36-ish Paladin?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Hundreds.

Step 1: Be a spellcaster.
Step 2: Use any number of well-known no-save spell combos, or just one or two really powerful spells.
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Profit.

Most level 20 full-casters would wreck a level 36 Paladin. How's he going to get out of a forcecage, for example?

[Tavar]

Any particular character? And does the Paladin have anything specific?

[Mushroom Ninja]

Is there any way for an EL 20 character to defeat at lvl 36-ish Paladin?

Yes. I think a 20th level wizard would have a pretty good chance if the Paladin doesn't use his/her wealth very intelligently.

[Mando Knight]

Round 1: Fly.
Round 2: ???
Round 3: Profit!

[Lord Loss]

yes. He an army at his disposal, including a lvl 18 druid. He also picked up some underpowered PrC giving him electricity resistance and a template (celestial, or something along those lines.

I can use any class.

[Mushroom Ninja]

How has the paladin used his wealth? Can he fly? Can he UMD? What is his access to teleportation? Freedom of movement?

[Tavar]

Use a form of the Mailman or Cindy build. Those can get around most of the common defences, leaving him to deal with having over 300 damage dealt, per spell. First, you probably want to take out the druid or other high level casters.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Also, what level of Cheese? None, a mild cheddar, a stronger brie, or all-out gouda?

[Lord Loss]

He has a multitude of Ioun stones, can fly thanks to a hippogriff he trained (or the druid trained?) and can UMD.

[Mushroom Ninja]

and can UMD.

That's going to be your biggest problem, I think, since with a lvl. 36 WBL, he can afford to be a very powerful wizard.

[Tavar]

Use this.

Even better, make yourself Ethreal, and then target him with Transdimensional(Com Arc) spells.

[Flickerdart]

Construct The Cube. Win by attrition.

[Optimystik]

As others have said, you'll need some divinations to figure out what he spent 36 levels worth of dough on.

[tyckspoon]

On strength of class features, yes- any caster should be able to pull it off. Epic Paladin provides almost nothing of note, and the Paladin's list of Epic Bonus Feats is quite lame. The Special Mount may actually be the hardest part to deal with, as a level 36 paladin could easily be partnered with an Adult-Old dragon (or even older- this gets very, very silly if you use the DMG's suggested guidelines for alternate paladin mounts. I'm just guessing the age range based on Draconomicon's Dragon Steed feat, which caps its listed chart at Young Gold for a 20th level character.)

If the Paladin has intelligent use of his wealth, then you have a problem. Epic wealth allows the purchase of so many defenses and contingency items that you will need some fairly extreme cheese to compete (just for starters, you can probably assume the Paladin is immune to Mind-Affecting, negative energy, death attacks, ability damage, an energy type or two, and has 40+ points of Touch AC, all before you start approaching his ridiculously high saves. Oh, and he probably permanently sees invisible and at least has a way of activating True Seeing.)

[Dr Bwaa]

No.

he's a Paladin who has somehow survived to level 36. This means he holds a position of power, which means he has leadership, which he has used to obtain the services of a lvl 34 Wizard cohort (he has done this because his high WIS lets him know it's the best option available to him). His cohort simply handles the puny challenger long before he becomes a threat.

Alternate story: he a Paladin who has somehow survived to level 36. This means that he has the direct protection of his deity (no other explanation). Said deity knows weeks or months in advance about the Paladin's challenger, and if it's a true threat, can take whatever actions are necessary to quash it, including but not limited to: alerting the paladin weeks in advance of the other character beginning to make plans (causing the Paladin to use his near-infinite wealth to directly counter whatever the lower-level character is attempting), directly interfering in the other person's plans, indirectly interfering with the other person's plans, RFED, etc.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

The biggest problem is probably the 18th level Druid, Special Mount, and army. The Paladin himself can most likely be locked down pretty easily.

Be a Wizard 20. Here's one way to do it.

• Obtain a Bag of Holding and a Portable Hole. Hold the Portable Hole over the Bag of Holding.
• Quickened, Stilled Dimension Door next to the Paladin, making sure he's not immediately surrounded by powerful minions. Maybe through Sudden Metamagic in order to retain high level spell-slots.
• As a free action, drop the Portable Hole in the Bag of Holding.
• Everything within 10 feet of you is sucked to the Astral Plane (no save). It's just the two of you there, by the way. Also, the Astral Plane has the Enhanced Magic trait, allowing all your spells to be automatically Quickened for no additional cost.
• With your move action, take a 5ft step back.
• With your standard action, cast Time Stop.
• On round 1, trap the Paladin in a Forcecage. Use the bars in order to retain line of sight.
• Use the remaining rounds to buff yourself up.
• When the time stop expires, cast greater celerity.
• Cast a sudden maximized maddening scream for 5 rounds of interruption-free destruction on a target incapable of making Reflex saves or taking actions. I believe there's a spell that paralyzes on a failed reflex save: try using that, dispelling your Forcecage, and Coup de Gracing the victim with polar ray or some other high damage spell. If it fails, replace forcecage instantly, as it will be quickened.
• Take as long as you want. Maybe pause to rest up. After all, Forcecage will be lasting 20 hours...

[Jack_Simth]

Let's see... how cheesy do you want?

If you're a Dragonblooded Sorcerer, Greater Arcane Fusion takes a standard action, and lets you cast two spells. GAF uses up it's slot, it doesn't cost you any extra.

If you've got a way to eliminate the extra casting time of metamagic for a Sorcerer (there's several ways... but for this, you want the feat for it that requires a lot of spellcraft).

Sanctum Spell makes a spell count as a level lower (if cast outside your Sanctum).

So you do Greater Arcane Fusion(Sanctum Spell(Greater Arcane Fusion), any damage spell). The Interior Greater Arcane Fusion is, of course, the exact same combo as the outer one. All paid for by the intial casting of Greater Arcane Fusion. So you blast with Fireballs (Possibly Energy Substuted through the Archmage ability) until everything within Long range is dead, then Teleport away.

Quickened, Stilled Dimension Door next to the Paladin, making sure he's not immediately surrounded by powerful minions. Maybe through Sudden Metamagic in order to retain high level spell-slots.

Two things:
1) You don't need to Still Dimension Door, as it has no Somatic Components (just Verbal).
2) Dimension Door ends your turn - you can't take any actions on your turn after it's happened. Replace with Teleport.

[Flickerdart]

Dim Door won't work, you can't take any actions after using it. It'll have to be Teleport.

[Godskook]

L20 character versus a L36 Paladin?

Comes down to 1 thing, and that's if the Paladin is built 'well' or 'poorly'. A well-built Paladin can curb-stomp anything pre-epic. For one simple reason that I'm sure everyone else hasn't realized: Epic spellcasting(Yes, Paladins get it). Insult-to-injury, a L36 Paladin probably has a high enough UMD score and WBL to give himself an encounter's worth of L20 wizard spellcasting, but he doesn't even need that much. He just needs 3 or 4 scrolls in order to get his spell research going, and then his epic spells will do the rest(Gate and Genesis, any others?).

And you don't stand a chance in hell if your opponent is built with a certain Champion of Valor feat, with or without epic spellcasting on the table.

[absolmorph]

Construct The Cube. Win by attrition.

This is the best idea yet.

[Jack_Simth]

L20 character versus a L36 Paladin?

Comes down to 1 thing, and that's if the Paladin is built 'well' or 'poorly'. A well-built Paladin can curb-stomp anything pre-epic. For one simple reason that I'm sure everyone else hasn't realized: Epic spellcasting(Yes, Paladins get it). Insult-to-injury, a L36 Paladin probably has a high enough UMD score and WBL to give himself an encounter's worth of L20 wizard spellcasting, but he doesn't even need that much. He just needs 3 or 4 scrolls in order to get his spell research going, and then his epic spells will do the rest(Gate and Genesis, any others?).

And you don't stand a chance in hell if your opponent is built with a certain Champion of Valor feat, with or without epic spellcasting on the table.

You know, I hadn't considered that - a Paladin-10/Divine Crusader (Complete Divine)-10 has access to 9th level spells, and so could qualify for Epic Spellcasting at 21st. Hmm. That could make this a PROBLEM.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

You know, I hadn't considered that - a Paladin-10/Divine Crusader (Complete Divine)-10 has access to 9th level spells, and so could qualify for Epic Spellcasting at 21st. Hmm. That could make this a PROBLEM.

It might be, but only one PrC was mentioned: "He also picked up some underpowered PrC giving him electricity resistance and a template (celestial, or something along those lines."

Not sure we have to worry.

[Jack_Simth]

It might be, but only one PrC was mentioned: "He also picked up some underpowered PrC giving him electricity resistance and a template (celestial, or something along those lines."

Not sure we have to worry.

Electricity Resistance 5 at Divine Crusader-3, resistance to electricity 10 at Divine Crusader-9. "Perfect Self" at Divine Crusader 10 makes you a native outsider.

Are you sure?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Electricity Resistance 5 at Divine Crusader-3, resistance to electricity 10 at Divine Crusader-9. "Perfect Self" at Divine Crusader 10 makes you a native outsider.

Are you sure?

Hm. You could be right.

This could be worse than anticipated.

[Godskook]

You know, I hadn't considered that - a Paladin-10/Divine Crusader (Complete Divine)-10 has access to 9th level spells, and so could qualify for Epic Spellcasting at 21st. Hmm. That could make this a PROBLEM.

A Straight Paladin, using a feat on his own epic-bonus-feat list(Read: Really, guys, you missed this?) qualifies for Epic Spellcasting on his L30 feat, with one epic feat to spare.

Take Epic Spellcasting off the table, and Sword of the Arcane Order still gets us double-digit wizard-compatible spell slots on a Paladin Chassis.

And then there's Divine Crusader, as you mentioned, and Epic Leadership.

[absolmorph]

People, the solution was already posted.
The Cube is immune to most stuff. And disintegrates anything you hit. And flies.

[Godskook]

People, the solution was already posted.
The Cube is immune to most stuff. And disintegrates anything you hit. And flies.

The cube is not immune to everything that's pre-epic, and an epic level, epic-casting, caster with feats to spare on Spell Stowaway(Time stop) isn't going to be bothered by something that's both (A)Pre-epic and (B)Vulnerable to something.

[Oslecamo]

Hm. You could be right.

This could be worse than anticipated.

Codzilla:Don't worry! It's just a paladin with some underpowered prestige class! My animal companion can solo it!
Batman Wizard: Wait, how do we know if it's underpowered?
Codzilla: Bah, you worry too much! We're fullcasters, what could possibly go-OH GODS HE HAS EPIC SPELLCASTING! THE PAIN! NO, PLEASE DON'T USE CHEESED OUT GATE OH S***-
Batman wizard: Ooookkkk, I guess I'll try to get some more levels.

Prcs that grant 9th level spellcasting before epic: fixing noncasters on epic since Complete Arcane.

[Emmerask]

Use this.

Even better, make yourself Ethreal, and then target him with Transdimensional(Com Arc) spells.

Transdimensional only works the other way as far as I know.

ie being on the material plane targeting etheral being -> np
being on the etheral plane targeting material plane beings -> no