Doing away with the divine

[Altair_the_Vexed]

Here's an idea I was toying with:

D&D without divine caster classes.

I thought of this while I was reading the generic classes variant, and the idea that the Spellcaster class can cherry pick their spells from any list.

So, if I only allow "arcane" casting - so no armoured clerics any more, and no Turn Undead - but allow all the spells on the Cleric and Druid lists to be used by the Spellcaster class, what changes in game?

Well, the churches no longer have absolute proof of their faith's power. Churches in game become more political entities, where one's position isn't dependent on the number of Resurrections per day you can perform.

This might foster a more dark-ages feel: churches might seek to control the power of wizards through political means.
It might make no difference - the churches would still be full of casters, but they'd be Spellcaster class characters, using arcane spells in the service of their gods.

Personally, I think it'd be interesting to try D&D with a non-caster priesthood.

[Optimystik]

There are some very handy divine spells you'd need to think about replacing - restorations, raising, and dealing with poison/disease for instance. Though I suppose alchemy can sub for the last two.

Doesn't Dragonlance do the whole "no real clerics" thing? Or it did before the trilogy anyway.

[mikeejimbo]

It's interesting that this idea comes up more than the converse of "no arcane casting, only divine".

[Agrippa]

There are some very handy divine spells you'd need to think about replacing - restorations, raising, and dealing with poison/disease for instance. Though I suppose alchemy can sub for the last two.

Cleric/druid spells would be open to all casters.

[White Blade]

Well, the churches no longer have absolute proof of their faith's power. Churches in game become more political entities, where one's position isn't dependent on the number of Resurrections per day you can perform.

Well, I was never under the impression that the number of resurrection spells per day was the source of authority within the church. Rather, as the trust that a god places in their cleric grows, the strength of that cleric's magic grows, so that by the time that the god has placed his cleric at 20th level that cleric has the complete faith of the deity to do what he expects of him. Obviously, such a cleric make an excellent choice if you need to delegate responsibilities because you can trust him.

[Optimystik]

Cleric/druid spells would be open to all casters.

Ah, I understand now.

I'm not sure what exactly would change - each church would just keep a cadre of Spellcasters handy to perform boons and miracles for the people. While there would now be less magic concentrated among the clergy, the various churches' reliance on magic to influence faith doesn't seem like it would diminish any.

A church is still the best organization in a medieval-ish society to accumulate the resources necessary to fund powerful magic. There's a reason clerics were the ones fueling the diamond trade.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

Well, I was never under the impression that the number of resurrection spells per day was the source of authority within the church. Rather, as the trust that a god places in their cleric grows, the strength of that cleric's magic grows, so that by the time that the god has placed his cleric at 20th level that cleric has the complete faith of the deity to do what he expects of him. Obviously, such a cleric make an excellent choice if you need to delegate responsibilities because you can trust him.

I guess I was being facetious to make a point - one can gain a whole bunch of levels through adventuring, but none of that makes you a better church leader... and yet it seems a bit ridiculous to have a Patriarch of the Faithful who is significantly lower level than their juniors.

[Greenish]

and yet it seems a bit ridiculous to have a Patriarch of the Faithful who is significantly lower level than their juniors.

Think inside the box game. Such concerns do not apply.

[Doc Roc]

I guess I was being facetious to make a point - one can gain a whole bunch of levels through adventuring, but none of that makes you a better church leader... and yet it seems a bit ridiculous to have a Patriarch of the Faithful who is significantly lower level than their juniors.

Actually, all challenges count for XP, based on rules explicitly left the GM's devising. So I guess it's up to you how much waging peace against a neighboring country is worth to the leader of a placid theocracy. That's at least a level per day. I mean, this is a fantasy world with things like planar binding. Your day to day life as a religious leader is going to make the cuban missile crisis look like a calm cricket match.

[Omegonthesane]

It's interesting that this idea comes up more than the converse of "no arcane casting, only divine".

Possibly because there are more people would rather not be forced to be the servant of a higher power to play a magic-using spellcaster than people who think it's worth forcing that. Although I saw a make-a-setting thread based on Mesopotamia where all the magic was going to be divine in nature for fluff at least.

[klemdakherzbag]

So it looks like you are building a Dragon Age-style campaign. I think that as long as you still allow for some healing magic most player's wont have a problem

[Velden]

That would make the game more similar with common rpgs archetypes. I never liked the fact that divine casters can wield armor. Afterall, a healer is a common unit that is supposed to be protected by their companions while he/she heals them.

And a cleric answers to their god, no their church.
An adventuring cleric could perfectly reach level 20, all the enemies slain are by the name of their god. Think of it as sacrifices/tributes and that way gaining his favor (more spells). A cleric that defies his/her faith loses his/her spells. (ok, there is no rule that says this I think, but it should make sense)

It´s not like all the clerics on the world would prefer to go adventuring, abandoning their homes and exposing themselves to the well known danger known as random encounter.

[taltamir]

abandoning their homes and exposing themselves to the well known boon known as random encounter.

fixed

OOTS campaign setting is that "monsters" were created by the gods as a source of XP for their chosen; so they could do more then just purify water and summon monster 1... this is pretty much spot on.
Random encounters rock!

OP, the only problem is that you giving somewhat of a boost to already overpowered classes... so you need to think of some way to balance that.

[Ravens_cry]

You could add at least one new school of magic for the ones that the usual wizard schools wouldn't cover, such as the healing spells.

[~LuckyBoneDice~]

Lemmie say this: this is a bad idea... This makes the d&d multiverse degenerate into chaos... BAD theory. Call Dr. Ian Malcom for more details y'all

[Altair_the_Vexed]

Why is it exceptionally awesome to give the Spellcaster access to the Cleric and Druid spell lists? He's only got a limited number of spells know, anyway, so why can't he pick them from any list?
The RAW for the Spellcaster says he can.

Why is chaos going to reign in the "D&D universe" (which universe / multiverse are we talking about here? Eberon..? Faerun..? Oerth..? Terra..? Mundia..? Forsandel..?) because there are no divine casters?

Depending on how one applies this idea, you could retain your whole priests-as-full-casters concept, and just say they're Spellcasters who specialise in the spell selections appropriate to their gods. The only difference between that and regular D&D is that the priests don't get to wear armour, they have more spells per day, but less choice, and there's no Turn Undead.
Is that so big a change that it destroys the setting? No. Not unless you refuse to bend the setting a little.

Anyway, my idea was to have the churches of my setting be only political / religious organisations, with a wide variety of classes within their clergy. Probably plenty of Aristocrats, Experts and yes, a few Spellcasters.

[Jarawara]

Lemmie say this: this is a bad idea... This makes the d&d multiverse degenerate into chaos... BAD theory. Call Dr. Ian Malcom for more details y'all

I don't understand what you mean. Please explain?