BleachITP Reborn: Discussion & Setup Thread 5

[tgva8889]

*coughcough*

His Shikai doesn't really summon compared to what Minazuki does or what Heiwajugi does, both of which in my mind are the closest to summoning that a Shikai can/should go.

This was based off Yori from the last game. So, in canon I'd agree, but you even said "usually"...so, is that bad?

Well, besides allowing someone to play the spirit and someone to play the Shinigami, is there a good reason that it can't just modify the sword? I could see it working as a sword ability, without needing to summon.

It's like the question we had last game about summoning Zanpakuto. Manifesting the Zanpakuto Spirit is something that usually takes 10+ years of effort to obtain. If it's a Shikai...then that part of getting Bankai becomes incredibly trivial.

Like I said, it's not a huge deal and in the end I'm probably the only person who cares, but I have an image of what Shinigami have as powers and what Arrancar have as powers and how the different types of character have been designed in the actual manga, and I like those images. They can be bent, sure, but sometimes the bending bends the images I have in my head a bit too much.

[Innis Cabal]

Well, besides allowing someone to play the spirit and someone to play the Shinigami, is there a good reason that it can't just modify the sword? I could see it working as a sword ability, without needing to summon.

It's like the question we had last game about summoning Zanpakuto. Manifesting the Zanpakuto Spirit is something that usually takes 10+ years of effort to obtain. If it's a Shikai...then that part of getting Bankai becomes incredibly trivial.

Like I said, it's not a huge deal and in the end I'm probably the only person who cares, but I have an image of what Shinigami have as powers and what Arrancar have as powers and how the different types of character have been designed in the actual manga, and I like those images. They can be bent, sure, but sometimes the bending bends the images I have in my head a bit too much.

I think with this sort, it comes from the odd connection that Shizuka has with her spirit.

Those powers are to be gained in games. So, it will all depend on how that plays out. I just wanted to post them so everyone could see them and review them. Its also really the only sort of shikai can do that, making her fairly unique. So, its not like its something every Shinigami can do.

I do understand your reservation with it though, and appreciate you being earnest about it

[KnightDisciple]

Uh...Callos's captain summons a giant whale. What's different here?

The "no one weaker can see" is a bit odd.

[Callos_DeTerran]

His Shikai doesn't really summon compared to what Minazuki does or what Heiwajugi does, both of which in my mind are the closest to summoning that a Shikai can/should go.



Well, besides allowing someone to play the spirit and someone to play the Shinigami, is there a good reason that it can't just modify the sword? I could see it working as a sword ability, without needing to summon.

Would you better with it if the shikai removed Shizuka's sword?

And as for manifesting the spirit, I would say her shikai doesn't count. It's not calling the spirit itself, just the shape it takes in shikai, Shizuka would have to learn how to manifest Heiwajugi himself to even begin to THINK about bankai.

Callos' captain summons a giant whale in BANKAI, in shikai it's like Komammura.

[horngeek]

Actually, I had the idea of someone manifesting their Z-pac spirit as their Shikai.

They'd have to learn to release Shikai without speaking the Zanpaktou's name before going for Bankai, in that case, I'd say.

----

*Mei starts edging away* "Oh, it's fine..."

[tgva8889]

Uh...Callos's captain summons a giant whale. What's different here?

Yes, Callos's captain summoned a whale. In Bankai. In Bankai you can summon whatever you want, I have no problems with Bankai doing that. Shikai is where I have problems, because Shikai don't do that, and if Shikai did than the whole point of the Tenshintai is pointless.

It's not the summoning I have a problem with, it's the summoning in Shikai.

...Its also really the only sort of shikai can do that, making her fairly unique. So, its not like its something every Shinigami can do.

I do understand your reservation with it though, and appreciate you being earnest about it

What happened to the Prince/Princess and Samurai character? That character also summoned something in Shikai. I didn't mention anything about that character b/c I missed the discussion, but it didn't quite sit well with me, however interesting it was.

And really, there should be some limits on what types of effects a Shikai/Bankai can produce, because they should have a different feel from the Arrancar Zanpakuto and Resurreccións and a different feel from the types of powers the Mortals are getting.

Edit@Callos: That would help somewhat, but the flavor behind summoning doesn't fit as much for me. You could just have the sword grant the "elemental" power to do what the summoned "spirit" does.

[Draken]

Actually, I had the idea of someone manifesting their Z-pac spirit as their Shikai.

They'd have to learn to release Shikai without speaking the Zanpaktou's name before going for Bankai, in that case, I'd say. "Oh, it's fine..."

There already is a character who does that.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Yes, Callos's captain summoned a whale. In Bankai. In Bankai you can summon whatever you want, I have no problems with Bankai doing that. Shikai is where I have problems, because Shikai don't do that, and if Shikai did than the whole point of the Tenshintai is pointless.

It's not the summoning I have a problem with, it's the summoning in Shikai

The whole point of the what? O.o

*Mei starts edging away* "Oh, it's fine..."

"Kukuku...Just kidding!"

[tgva8889]

The Urahara invention that bypasses the 10+ years of training required to manifest the Zanpakuto spirit. Urahara's invention allowed Bankai in 3 days because it forcibly manifests the spirit, skipping the lengthy part of getting Bankai.

It was basically a way of saying what I've already been saying, which is that summoning feels like a cheat because other Shinigami have to spend 10 years doing that after they get Shikai.

If I'm the only one who has a huge issue with it, then it's not that big of a deal, but I think we should know what the feel of the different ability types is, because if you wanted to make something that didn't feel like a Shinigami Zanpakuto, you can make a Medium with whatever type of powers you want.

[horngeek]

"Phew..."

*relaxes guard*

[Innis Cabal]

Yes, Callos's captain summoned a whale. In Bankai. In Bankai you can summon whatever you want, I have no problems with Bankai doing that. Shikai is where I have problems, because Shikai don't do that, and if Shikai did than the whole point of the Tenshintai is pointless.

It's not the summoning I have a problem with, it's the summoning in Shikai.



What happened to the Prince/Princess and Samurai character? That character also summoned something in Shikai. I didn't mention anything about that character b/c I missed the discussion, but it didn't quite sit well with me, however interesting it was.

And really, there should be some limits on what types of effects a Shikai/Bankai can produce, because they should have a different feel from the Arrancar Zanpakuto and Resurreccións and a different feel from the types of powers the Mortals are getting.

Edit@Callos: That would help somewhat, but the flavor behind summoning doesn't fit as much for me. You could just have the sword grant the "elemental" power to do what the summoned "spirit" does.

See, I think there is some disctintion between the "types" of characters in the game already.

The Tenshintai was a cheat made by one guy. So...its not really relevent to this, since there was only ever one.

And, we've broken and bent canon in alot of ways already. Some points beyond what people really wanted...so, while I understand your concern, I think this is a point that can be bent in rare exceptions, espcially since it actually promotes RP and character interaction and explores the relationship between the Shinigami and the Zanpakuto Spirit.

[Callos_DeTerran]

The Urahara invention that bypasses the 10+ years of training required to manifest the Zanpakuto spirit. Urahara's invention allowed Bankai in 3 days because it forcibly manifests the spirit, skipping the lengthy part of getting Bankai.

It was basically a way of saying what I've already been saying, which is that summoning feels like a cheat because other Shinigami have to spend 10 years doing that after they get Shikai.

If I'm the only one who has a huge issue with it, then it's not that big of a deal, but I think we should know what the feel of the different ability types is, because if you wanted to make something that didn't feel like a Shinigami Zanpakuto, you can make a Medium with whatever type of powers you want.

Again, I would say the shikai isn't bypassing that 10 years since it's an ability of the shikai, not Shizuka manifesting the spirit herself which IS part of the requirement for bankai (and I thought it took 100 years, or was that mastering bankai?). But what do I know? xD

And if I had wanted to make a Medium, then I'd have made a medium. Instead I created a shinigami with a summoning zanpakuto that...with your revisions...wouldn't summon.

[tgva8889]

I don't really have an argument against it besides "It doesn't feel like a Shikai" so I don't think I can really make any sort of case against it. I'm just saying that I get a sense on what Shikai are supposed to do, and this doesn't quite fit it.

I think part of it is related to how I understood Shinigami gaining power. The Shikai is more like an agreement between the spirit and the Shinigami. The Spirit respects the Shinigami enough to grant them some of its power by changing its physical form (the Zanpakuto) into something else or by allowing its physical form to create magical effects. But I don't think the Spirit, at the Shikai stage, respects its Shinigami enough to do the work for them by manifesting itself. It wouldn't allow that, because it wants to have control over a part of its power. If it allows itself to be summoned, the Zanpakuto Spirit is acknowledging that the Shinigami has total control over them, and from my understanding the Zanpakuto Spirit doesn't really want to be totally controlled. That's why a Shinigami has to train to manifest their Zanpakuto Spirit.

Maybe that's a better description of what I think.

Edit: 100 is 10+. They are equivalent. Edit2: Apparently, Wiki says 10 or more years. I actually did think it was 100, but I decided to say 10+ instead. Meh, whatever. In truth, Bankai happens at the speed of Plot.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I don't really have an argument against it besides "It doesn't feel like a Shikai" so I don't think I can really make any sort of case against it. I'm just saying that I get a sense on what Shikai are supposed to do, and this doesn't quite fit it.

I think part of it is related to how I understood Shinigami gaining power. The Shikai is more like an agreement between the spirit and the Shinigami. The Spirit respects the Shinigami enough to grant them some of its power by changing its physical form (the Zanpakuto) into something else or by allowing its physical form to create magical effects. But I don't think the Spirit, at the Shikai stage, respects its Shinigami enough to do the work for them by manifesting itself. It wouldn't allow that, because it wants to have control over a part of its power. If it allows itself to be summoned, the Zanpakuto Spirit is acknowledging that the Shinigami has total control over them, and from my understanding the Zanpakuto Spirit doesn't really want to be totally controlled. That's why a Shinigami has to train to manifest their Zanpakuto Spirit.

Maybe that's a better description of what I think.

Alright...but in this case let's consider a few points.

-It's not said Shizuka can actually direct what her zanpakuto does. In point of fact, until Innis tells me otherwise, I'm going to assume that all Shizuka can do is yell/talk/scream at him and hopes he listens.
-Minazuki is...exactly what you are describing. Yet you don't seem to have a problem with it. (Okay, the sting-ray thing doesn't look like the spirit, but something is still summoned).

[KnightDisciple]

I think tgva8889 has some valid concerns.

I think the compromise of "her physical sword disappears" might be good. At that point, it greatly resembles the general mechanic of Unohana's sword.

As well, I'm hesitant to wave around "we've broken and bent canon before, so, whee!, let's do it again!". If we're really approaching a point where someone has a concern of this nature, we should at least address and consider it.

[horngeek]

"Phew..."

*relaxes guard*

...You know, we should gather these kinds of things as Omake in the wiki.

[KnightDisciple]

I do have to say, though....this is 2 characters now whose shikai work via "summon sword spirit". It is kind of...hm.

Part of me has to wonder if there are other ways to go about some of these ideas. Both for the sake of those like tgva8889, and for the more general sake of not making such things quite so common.

[tgva8889]

-It's not said Shizuka can actually direct what her zanpakuto does. In point of fact, until Innis tells me otherwise, I'm going to assume that all Shizuka can do is yell/talk/scream at him and hopes he listens.
-Minazuki is...exactly what you are describing. Yet you don't seem to have a problem with it. (Okay, the sting-ray thing doesn't look like the spirit, but something is still summoned).

1) That's fine, but then the question becomes "Why would the Zanpakuto manifest itself to fight for Shizuka rather than forcing Shizuka to do the work herself?" I feel like most Shikai are Shinigami-driven, while Bankai are more driven by the power of the Zanpakuto. Obviously there are exceptions (Ichigo and Ikkaku, mainly) but generally that was the feeling I got.

2) The stingray is the sword, though. It's possible that Minazuki manifests a portion of its power by transforming the sword, it just has so much power than what it provides becomes a giant stingray. She is the second most powerful Captain in Soul Society behind the Commander-General himself, it's entirely possible.

If the physical sword disappears, I can live with that, since I understand that the change that I would like is unreasonable at this point. I would rather allow you to go through with the work that you've put in to making these two characters than force you to abide by my concerns.

@Knight: I think in some cases, there are. If the only purpose of summoning the spirit is to have it fight for you with some special abilities, you could have the abilities just be granted on the actual Shinigami. That's what other Shikai do.

[Innis Cabal]

1) That's fine, but then the question becomes "Why would the Zanpakuto manifest itself to fight for Shizuka rather than forcing Shizuka to do the work herself?" I feel like most Shikai are Shinigami-driven, while Bankai are more driven by the power of the Zanpakuto. Obviously there are exceptions (Ichigo and Ikkaku, mainly) but generally that was the feeling I got.

2) The stingray is the sword, though. It's possible that Minazuki manifests a portion of its power by transforming the sword, it just has so much power than what it provides becomes a giant stingray. She is the second most powerful Captain in Soul Society behind the Commander-General himself, it's entirely possible.

If the physical sword disappears, I can live with that, since I understand that the change that I would like is unreasonable at this point. I would rather allow you to go through with the work that you've put in to making these two characters than force you to abide by my concerns.

@Knight: I think in some cases, there are. If the only purpose of summoning the spirit is to have it fight for you with some special abilities, you could have the abilities just be granted on the actual Shinigami. That's what other Shikai do.

1. I understand its a concern, but its based on personal opinion. And while thats fair, we really don't know how such things work in canon. I'm going to repeat this actually gives us some insight, at least in our own canon. But to add, even in canon we see Zanpakuto spirits have their own personality, so asking "why wouldn't it make the wielder do the work"...well, maybe must of them do. Maybe the two we have are exceptions. In fact, even Chishuu has to do most of the work himself.

2. It shouldn't matter the strength of the Captain. In your own words shikai should have set level of what they can do. So, a Shikai should be a Shikai should be a Shikai. Callos also said she'd lose the sword as well. Shikai can summon, we've seen it done in canon.

I do have to say, though....this is 2 characters now whose shikai work via "summon sword spirit". It is kind of...hm.

Part of me has to wonder if there are other ways to go about some of these ideas. Both for the sake of those like tgva8889, and for the more general sake of not making such things quite so common.

2 out of...how many characters we have isn't all that common. I'd agree with you if there were say, like 4-5, but 2 (played by at least one of the same people as the other) isn't common.

I also think this idea is fairly sound, considering that it does promote RP and exposition which we'd otherwise not get (Maybe).

[KnightDisciple]

It only takes 1 to start potentially causing issues. *Shrugs*

Just because it's "only" 2 doesn't invalidate the potential concern.

And waving your hands with the excuse of "promoting RP and exposition" is...not really helpful.

And the bit about "which we might otherwise not get" doesn't really make sense. I mean, yeah, we probably won't have scenes in the middle of a battle with 2 players controlling shinigami and sword without this explicit conflict. But we'll still have RP and exposition in general.

[Innis Cabal]

I thought the idea of this game was to promote RP and create story lines and such? And to get character interaction. I would say that -is- actually a helpful thing to promote and to bring up. Because thats what sits at the center of this game. Story driven RP between a large player base.

And the bit about "which we might otherwise not get" doesn't really make sense. I mean, yeah, we probably won't have scenes in the middle of a battle with 2 players controlling shinigami and sword without this explicit conflict. But we'll still have RP and exposition in general

This is also taking me a little out of context. I'm not saying without this we wouldn't get exposition or plot or what ever. But, if the last game is any indication (and it lasted well over a year so...it kinda is) most people don't delve into the relationship between their zanpakuto and the character themselves.

In fact, the real first time someone did it is with an idea just like this.

[nothingclever]

I agree with you tgva8889. I'd rather see characters gaining the powers and imagery of their zanpakuto spirits than see them literally manifested. Komamura and Unohana summon things but they don't look like their zanpakuto spirits.

[KnightDisciple]

I'm...pretty sure the idea of the game is RP. Did I say otherwise? Pretty sure I didn't.

And....frankly, while I think it's a nifty concept, I don't see it as that vital, outside of "bankai training scenes". The story is about the Shinigami, not the zanpakutou. While having them express their feeling of "partnership rather than ownership" is good, I don't see why it has to be a large amount of plot. For me, Renji is interesting interacting with other characters beyond his zanpakutou. Frankly, the most recent anime filler didn't enamor me to the concept that much.

I think there's a whole of of chances for RP outside of this.

Beyond that, there's still ways to RP interaction with swords beyond "I manifest my sword spirit in Shikai".

[horngeek]

...I, quite frankly, think summoning is a perfectly fine Shikai ability. From a certain point of view, that's what Hitsugaya's Shikai does (and Natsuko's).

----

Also, Strawberry, just let me know when you do decide who Ruwa will be a Fraccion to.

In the meantime: anyone else want to be part of Mei's Fraccion/Harem?

[Draken]

>_>

Is it really that big an issue if the summon leaves or doesn't leave the sword behind?

If it leaves the sword behind (truly summons it) then whatever.

If it turns the sword into the "summon" (transformation, which is what zanpakutou almost invariably do in shikai), then she could just carry around one of those spiritless swords to use when in shikai. Again, whatever. End result is the same.

[tgva8889]

@Draken: Mechanically, no. Feeling-wise, yes, it does matter to me.

1. I understand its a concern, but its based on personal opinion. And while thats fair, we really don't know how such things work in canon. I'm going to repeat this actually gives us some insight, at least in our own canon. But to add, even in canon we see Zanpakuto spirits have their own personality, so asking "why wouldn't it make the wielder do the work"...well, maybe must of them do. Maybe the two we have are exceptions. In fact, even Chishuu makes him do alot of the work.

2. It shouldn't matter the strength of the Captain. In your own words shikai should have set level of power. So, a Shikai should be a Shikai should be a Shikai. Callos also said she'd lose the sword as well. Shikai can summon, we've seen it done in canon.

1. Well, I never said specifically that I had a problem with Chishuu besides the summoning bit. Part of the reason I didn't comment on that was that I couldn't think of another way the ability could have been done that didn't involve summoning.

And maybe they are exceptions, but in that case why is Shizuka so afraid to mention that she has such a connecting with her Zanpakuto that it's willing to fight for her at such an early stage?

2. Well, in Unohana's case the "set level of power" of her Shikai might just be higher because she is supposedly stronger than just about every other non-Aizen, non-Yamamoto Shinigami that we know about. It's possible that her base level of power made her Shikai that strong. What I was saying is that "summoning the spirit" is something that should only happen when the character is dominating the spirit, I.E. in Bankai. Shikai is not that.

Part of the reason I said nothing about Yori was I was not a major part of the previous game at that time. Whether or not it was my right, I wasn't going to say anything because I felt that I didn't have the respect at the time to say anything. The bigger reason was that I saw a reason why it would work; Tsuhika isn't Yori's Zanpakuto. Tsuhika is Hazuki's Zanpakuto. Yori isn't communing with or summoning his own spirit, he's summoning someone else's.

And this isn't to say I'm not a proponent of Shinigami-Zanpakuto interaction. I think it's important, and we should have more of it for those characters who need to do it to advance (probably by gaining Bankai). But I think there are other ways to include such interaction than through the summoning of a physical manifestation of the spirit at Shikai level.

@horngeek: Actually, I don't think so. It's very different from the summoning that we're thinking of, because in reality Hitsugaya has total dominance over the ice dragon that his sword creates. The dragon isn't his spirit, it's a manifestation of the power that his spirit grants him in Shikai. Hyorinmaru gives Hitsugaya the power to manipulate the weather and to create ice, in my opinion. You can view it how you like, though, since there's really no definitive evidence in any direction.

[Tackyhillbillu]

I thought the idea of this game was to promote RP and create story lines and such? And to get character interaction. I would say that -is- actually a helpful thing to promote and to bring up. Because thats what sits at the center of this game. Story driven RP between a large player base.

This is also taking me a little out of context. I'm not saying without this we wouldn't get exposition or plot or what ever. But, if the last game is any indication (and it lasted well over a year so...it kinda is) most people don't delve into the relationship between their zanpakuto and the character themselves.

In fact, the real first time someone did it is with an idea just like this.

I... fail to see how this addresses anything.

You can speak with your Z-Pac spirit without it being a summoning spirit. Frankly, I intend Ude's Spirit to show up everyonce in a while. He and Ude don't get along. Ude's Zanpaktou Spirit is the White Rabbit from Alice in Wonderland.

As for the Summoning issue... eh, don't really care. Kinda seems redundant, with the Bount around, but as you will.

[horngeek]

As for the Summoning issue... eh, don't really care. Kinda seems redundant, with the Bount around, but as you will.

...actually, this is a valid argument against Z-pac summoning. Because the Bount, in fact, already do it.

[nothingclever]

...I, quite frankly, think summoning is a perfectly fine Shikai ability. From a certain point of view, that's what Hitsugaya's Shikai does

Hitsugaya's ice dragon stuff looks vastly different from his zanpakuto spirit.

[Callos_DeTerran]

And maybe they are exceptions, but in that case why is Shizuka so afraid to mention that she has such a connecting with her Zanpakuto that it's willing to fight for her at such an early stage?

I don't know if you noticed or not, but Shizuka isn't capable of shikai or bankai. And she isn't 'afraid' of mentioning that she is capable of talking to her zanpakuto spirit...she's embarrassed because she can talk to it and her own fear of what it might be capable of doing (a justified fear) keeps her from hearing it's name.