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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    PirateCaptain

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    Default The rules

    The 10% homosexual population is as grossly inflated as the "3 million homeless in the U.S." statistic that gets trotted out every so often by well-meaning but woefully misinformed Small-Minds.

    The thing about homosexuality is that it's not only "kitchy" these days, but when it's represented in comic books certain rules follow:
    (1) They are a recognized minority and therefore must always be presented in a positive and sympathetic light, just like African Americans (am I to believe in all of Gotham there isn't one black gang member for Batman to slap around?).
    (2) There must not be villains who are defined by their sexual preference, only strong, upstanding gay heroes.
    (3) You must not impugn, judge, or ridicule homosexuals and their behavior. (You can bash conservatives freely because they are not a recognized minority. Religion is fair game as long as you don't target a specific faith, e.g. Muslims, Catholics, Jews, and any other faith with a powerful antidefamation lobby. [throws out script in which Supergirl converts to Catholicism, on which the banner on the cover pronounces her as "the world's easiest superhero!"]).
    (4) Homosexuality must be a choice, and not caused or prompted by alcohol, drugs, or some sort of mind-control [throws out script in which a gay villain taints the city's water supply with homosexuality-inducing chemicals, and another in which he blankets the city in "gay gas"].

    Because it pisses off the loony right wing (And that's ALWAYS a good thing)
    Yes, and the loony left isn't out there slapping ratings on our TV programs (ugly little monstrosities which destroy lives, cost jobs, and rob us of our rights as Americans), crying for laws to restrict freedom of speech because they don't like something someone said on the radio that was critical of them, and pushing for stiffer parental guidance laws for the music and film industry. Oh, wait.... :-[


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  2. - Top - End - #32
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: [shrugs]

    Quote Originally Posted by Alchemistmerlin
    A) Changing what character? It's a DIFFERENT character. Many people have worn the various batcowls, Batman goes through sidekicks and spinoffs like Joker goes through laughing gas.
    No, go back and read the article. It's the same Batwoman, just retooled to be politically correct. The article actually says that did it for purposes of "diversity" which is codeword for whatever's trendy on the left at the moment.

    Ok, so I see that several people claimed that Batwoman is a new character. I've quoted below the portion of the original article which says otherwise. I've also included the portion where they say that they're trying to include "diversity."

    Quote Originally Posted by CelestialStick
    Updated:2006-05-31 18:48:53
    Batwoman Is Back as a Lesbian
    By LARRY McSHANE
    AP
    AP/DC Comics
    [snip]

    The original Batwoman was started in 1956, and killed off in 1979. The new character will share the same name as her original alter ego, Kathy Kane. And the new Batwoman arrives with ties to others in the Gotham City world.

    [snip]

    "This is not just about having a gay character," DiDio said. "We're trying for overall diversity in the DC universe. We have strong African-American, Hispanic and Asian characters. We're trying to get a better cross-section of our readership and the world."

    [snip]
    Oh, as far as the much-vaunted 10% figure, the Kinsey Report concluded that among sex-offenders in prison 6% of the population was homosexual. Leftists then "rounded" that figure up to 10% and applied it to the entire population. Based on a plethora of other studies, the gay population actually comes in around a percent or two in America, as someone already posted.

    That's about the size of the Jewish population in America. Are there any Jewish DC superheroes? I know that there's one Marvel Jewish supervillain (Magneto) but I'm not familar with any Jewish superheroes. I'd personally like to see one who goes around stopping anti-semitic terrorists from setting off nukes and biological weapons in America.

    Oh, and as long as we're talking about diversity, how about some fundamentalist Christian superheroes? There are far more fundamentalist Christians than homosexuals in America, but I don't see fundamentalist Christians represented in comics. For that matter, how about a Catholic superhero? Are there any of those? Catholicism is the single largest Christian denomination in the America. So to be property representative, there should be a whole league of Catholic superheroes.

    That would assume, of course, that DC is interested in some sort of real diversity or real representation, rather than just following the latest trendy ideology.
    Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

    The irony is that my favorite colors are black and red, and I almost always play chaotic good characters.

  3. - Top - End - #33
    DeathQuaker
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    Default Re: [shrugs]

    Quote Originally Posted by CelestialStick

    No, go back and read the article. It's the same Batwoman, just retooled to be politically correct. The article actually says that did it for purposes of "diversity" which is codeword for whatever's trendy on the left at the moment.

    Ok, so I see that several people claimed that Batwoman is a new character. I've quoted below the portion of the original article which says otherwise. I've also included the portion where they say that they're trying to include "diversity."
    Your quote contradicts what you claim here.

    The quote from the article:
    The original Batwoman was started in 1956, and killed off in 1979. The new character will share the same name as her original alter ego, Kathy Kane. And the new Batwoman arrives with ties to others in the Gotham City world.
    So.... reading comprehension 101:

    It says that the Original Batwoman/Kathy Kane died in 1979. So that means the original character is dead, still dead, and always dead.

    It says that the new character has the same name as the character that is dead. This means that she is a NEW character, not someone coming back. That she has the same name does not make her the same person, or else they would saying that the old Kathy Kane who died in 1979 is not dead and is returning. They would not be calling her "new."

    And it again refers to her as the new Batwoman. Again, "new" indicates she is not a character we have seen before. We might extrapolate that she is based on the Kathy Kane who we have not seen in 27 years (and as far as I can tell, was not really MISSED in 27 years). But she is still, as the article clearly states several times, a NEW character.

    What I said about the character in my first post still applies and is consistent with the article. And the other people who said she is a new character are clearly not wrong either.

    And as much as I'd love to dig into the political and moral debating going on, I don't come to this board to discuss real life. It's a comic book, guys.

  4. - Top - End - #34
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Batwoman Is Back as a Lesbian

    Sigh.

    Can't they make a character who's lesbian without making a Big Stupid Thing out of it? I mean, it's just one of those things that some people are -- why is it the defining characteristic? Why, furthermore, does she have to dress like that?

    ::looks at rant::
    ::realises this is asking "Why can't everyone just be Neil Gaiman?::

    Sigh. I blame the patriarchy.

  5. - Top - End - #35
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Batwoman Is Back as a Lesbian

    Has it occured to you that a large portion of the comic-book buying public are the quote unquote "baby dykes"? They don't tend to goto the conventions, mostly because comic book conventions are crammed full of Comic-Book-Guy's of the Simpsons fans and the 'last' thing a gay teenage girl wants it to be surrounded by them all day, but it's still a large demographic of the readership, just a fairly quiet one.

    I know for a simple fact (if you actualy get out and live rather than get wound up about comic book re-writes) that alot of the now very assuredly gay women read things like the old X-men comics. There've been entire conversations i've been involved in about who worked out they liked girls after getting a crush on X female comic book hero/villain. Incidently, it's been established as Harley Quinn, followed by Rogue as the two leading characters.

    You have to accept something, the comic books from the 60's, are not the same as the ones from the 80's. The ones from the 80's are not the same as the ones now. They change according to the social trends.

    Brief description of trend for the people who will add a 'y' on the end: A social trend is a particular set of behaviour that emerges within society, be it a general conseus of opinion within a large group, or just a small demographic.

    One of the social trends we're enjoying now is that you're allowed to be gay, it's not something that makes your mother usher you inside and tells you to 'Stay away from X, he/she's not right'. And i'm glad for that. I'm also glad that it's reached a stage where the mainstream media is allowing their pillar of the community archetypes to have a different sexuality too.

    Then you've got to remember that the comic book writers didn't run out into the streets and scream OMFG!!! LOLZ LOOK WHAT WE DID! BATGIRL IS GAAAAAAY!!!!

    The media picked up on it, and because lesbians sell papers and make people watch the news, they blew it right up. As the writers said, it was a decision they made to diversify a little bit. If they'd made Batman (openly?) gay, they'd have been ripped apart by everyone going 'We told you so!' and if they made another male character gay, they'd have been accused of trying to corrupt the youth of the world by some bunch of homophobes. The fact is that women have always been seen as the less threatening gender and therefore female homosexuality is the first to be accepted. In ten to twenty years time, we'll hopefully be allowed to see a gay male superhero too.


    And as for the statistics on the gay population...did you know that 99.8% of statistics are made up on the spot?

    Since a 'ton' of gay people arn't 'out' and those that are might not want to announce it on a survey, and since an actual national survey (surveying everyone in the nation, rather than five people from each state and claiming it's national) are very rarely conducted, you can't rely on those numbers anyway...

    And there have easily been over a hundred super-heroes in the past 40 years, so by your own statistics, we're due at least two or three gay ones by now.

  6. - Top - End - #36
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default whoa

    stick quoth
    the latest trendy ideology.
    again: as of when was sexual identity a matter of trendy ideology? gayness to you is just a trendy ideology? i suppose then that religion is also just a trendy ideology to you, stick?

    and as for jewish characters: kitty pryde (x-men). my info is at least 1.5 decades out of date at that.

    ed
    \"i think this line\'s mostly filler\"--willow rosenberg, once more, with feeling, season 6, buffy the vampire slayer

  7. - Top - End - #37
    DeathQuaker
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    Default Re: Batwoman Is Back as a Lesbian

    Quote Originally Posted by Playelf
    In ten to twenty years time, we'll hopefully be allowed to see a gay male superhero too.
    There are gay male superheroes... in Marvel and Image comics, IIRC. They're just not very well known.

    And there are a lot of gay and bisexual characters in comic books, though again, not very well known. Catwoman's sidekick Holly has a girlfriend. Birds of Prey had a man in love with another man.

    And again, somehow it flew completely under the radar, but Wonder Woman--a pretty big name character--had a woman in love with her. They didn't have a relationship, but Wonder Woman didn't reject her "because she was gay" (it was more to do that... ah, never mind. It was a really convoluted plot not worth explaining). But it's _good_ that it flew under the radar... people went, yeah, she has a potential female love interest... oh, isn't it a shame it didn't work out... and moved on...

    Just somehow, for some reason, this has hit the media, probably just because it has the bat-logo on it. It's nice, I think, that there are more diverse characters in comics--but I agree people shouldn't be waving flags going, "WOO! LOOK! WE'RE DIVERSE!" as yeah, it does smack a bit of exploitation. There's a difference between visibility and inclusivity versus PC-pandering.

    What really amuses me is it strikes me that the people who seem the most visibly outraged by this whole thing are the people who clearly do not read comic books and have no idea what kind of characters are in them these days.

    We can see from the beginning of the thread that a bunch of people thought the "Batwoman" character was an entirely different person than who they thought she was--much of the ensuing drama was based entirely on ignorance and misconception.

    As are much of these kind of debates, it seems. *sigh* Hence I think I'll head out soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by CelestialStick
    For that matter, how about a Catholic superhero?
    The Huntress in DC comics is Catholic. For a long time she wore a cross on her uniform. She did go through a story arc where she "lost her faith" but this was to do with a personal issue, and IIRC she is practicing once again. I remember her telling Black Canary she was planning to attend mass a little while ago.

    And I'm sure she's not the only one. My X-men knowledge has gaps, but wasn't Nightcrawler a monk or something?

    Perhaps before you ask, "Where is such-and-such a kind of character" in comics, you ought to go out and read a few. With the exception of examples of real-life extremists (such as fundamentalists of any religion) you'll probably find a character that represents one group or another.

  8. - Top - End - #38
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    TinSoldier's Avatar

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    Default Re: whoa

    Quote Originally Posted by ed
    again: as of when was sexual identity a matter of trendy ideology? gayness to you is just a trendy ideology? i suppose then that religion is also just a trendy ideology to you, stick?

    and as for jewish characters: kitty pryde (x-men). my info is at least 1.5 decades out of date at that.

    ed
    While his word choice could have been better, I think what he means by "trendy ideology" is more along the lines of how Haggis described it above.

    Suddenly it is trendy to vaunt this aspect of a character's personality in order to sell the comic books. "Hey, look at us! We're cool and with the times because we have a gay main character!"

    I'm sure there were better ways of doing this. Heck, our TV news stations picked up on this!

    I remember a couple of years ago wasn't there a Catwoman comic where she was lesbian? I think I flipped through a couple of the issues but I wasn't impressed with the storytelling or the artwork. The orientation issue had little or nor bearing on it.

    Plus I think there have been several hints or suggestions that Selena Kyle was at least bisexual... but since I've only got a couple of graphic novels and none of the comics I don't have a good reference.

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: [shrugs]

    Quote Originally Posted by DeathQuaker

    Your quote contradicts what you claim here.

    The quote from the article:

    So.... reading comprehension 101:

    It says that the Original Batwoman/Kathy Kane died in 1979. So that means the original character is dead, still dead, and always dead.

    It says that the new character has the same name as the character that is dead. This means that she is a NEW character, not someone coming back. That she has the same name does not make her the same person, or else they would saying that the old Kathy Kane who died in 1979 is not dead and is returning. They would not be calling her "new."

    And it again refers to her as the new Batwoman. Again, "new" indicates she is not a character we have seen before. We might extrapolate that she is based on the Kathy Kane who we have not seen in 27 years (and as far as I can tell, was not really MISSED in 27 years). But she is still, as the article clearly states several times, a NEW character.

    What I said about the character in my first post still applies and is consistent with the article. And the other people who said she is a new character are clearly not wrong either.

    And as much as I'd love to dig into the political and moral debating going on, I don't come to this board to discuss real life. It's a comic book, guys.
    Let's see: "new" character has the same name as an "old" character, including the same alter ego name. Sounds like the same character to me. Indeed it is the same character, or people wouldn't be debating whether the change is good or bad.

    In any case, getting snippy doesn't make you more persuasive; it just shows your lack of tolerance for anyone who doesn't march in lockstep with your beliefs.

    If you don't want to discuss anything political, then don't discuss it. Don't discuss politics and then claim that you don't come here to discuss it. At least be honest.

    Fundamentalist Christians don't believe anything that wasn't considered mainstream Christianity a few decades back, and indeed share a good deal of beliefs with the largest Christian denomination in America, Catholicism. It's the people who have, like you did here, tried to portray anything seriously Christian as "extremism" who are the extremists. I say that as someone who's Jewish, not Christian, himself. And I'm not even an observant Jew. But I do teach history, and I do know intolerance and ignorance when it comes out of someone's mouth, as it has from yours right here. I don't agree with serious Christians about a good many things, but in my experience they are more tolerant and less extreme than people like you.

    So there's one Catholic superhero? Hey, that's great! Was she Catholic in any meaningful sense or just a token Catholic? Did she act in any way in line with serious Catholic theology, or did she just conveniently wear a cross around her neck?

    Frankly I don't really care whether they have a Jewish or Catholic or fundamentalist Protestant superhero. But let's not pretend that retooling Batwoman to be gay has anything to do with diversity or representation. It's political correctness, pure and simple.
    Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

    The irony is that my favorite colors are black and red, and I almost always play chaotic good characters.

  10. - Top - End - #40
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Batwoman Is Back as a Lesbian

    poor gay people...even when people talk about diversity they're left out and labled PC.... ::)

    because you know since they're diffrent including them isn't about diversity.....


    anyway.

    Catholic Superheros:
    Daredevil: one of his motivations is "catholic" guilt, this was played up in the movie
    Nightcrawler: Is VEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERY catholic. was once in the seminary but concluded that it wasn't god's path for him after some soul searching
    Bruce Wayne: non-practicing Catholic or Anglican

    (technicly fundamentalist isn't a religion its a pt of view, and often one that consists of i'm right end of story, but i think you meant Evangelical christians some include)
    Ultimate Rogue
    Superman: with the small town christian values
    the Crazed military scienctist from: GOd loves man kills (hey not every character has to be a positive role modle for their ideology)

    Later Day Saints
    I believe Blade was mentioned as this

    Jewish
    Kitty Pryde
    Magneto (lasped)
    Ben Grim AKA The THING

    its pretty diverse out there allready in terms of religion. however its been a LONG time comming for sexual diversity, the ban agianst gay and bi characters has hurt the industry, causing them to scrap some good ideas and bring in bad ones. heres some examples of how its hurt the industry

    1) Nightcrawlers parentage.
    INTENDED: Destiny is his mother impregnated by Mystique in male form. note that his Catholic beleifs might cause some hellofa good drama if this were revealed just to add to the delightful chaos
    WHAT WE GOT: his father's an immortal demonish mutant (supposidly the devil is based on this mutant) who was banished to another realm by Angel's descendants. this brings several problems...1) Azreal the demon guy, has been shown leaving the plane to impregnate women...why does he keep going back. 2) Marvel verse allready established that there are REAL demonic forces. Mephistopholis for example had previously been stated as being many culture's iinspiration for their Devil characters. there was no reason to rewrite the demonic origins into a mutant POV when you allready achknowledge there are Real freaking demons....

    please don't let this tripe happen to your favorite comic book

  11. - Top - End - #41
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    PirateCaptain

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    Default Re: Batwoman Is Back as a Lesbian


  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: Batwoman Is Back as a Lesbian

    I thought Superhero religions had come up before on this forum. If so sorry for reposting this link, but it is a list of most of the superheros and thier religions. There are quite a few catholics on there:

    http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/..._religion.html
    Avatar by potatocubed

  13. - Top - End - #43
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Batwoman Is Back as a Lesbian

    Hmmmm --- a character whose alter-ego name is the same...whose superhero name is the same... who has the same ties in Gotham...

    but, alas, a different character altogether....ho-hum

    Sexual orientation aside, sounds like a bunch of doublespeak to me. :yawn: Besides, Batwoman never got me reading the comic just for her.

    Kinda like WNBA....their mechanics are good, just can't dunk.

    Snooo snoo...hehe

  14. - Top - End - #44
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default hm

    tin soldier: maybe so, but i've read a number of stick's posts and he's usually pretty clear in his thinking and explanations. perhaps it would be best if we let stick speak for himself. heaven knows the man's capable of it. :>

    ing, i had no idea re: kurt's parentage, thanks! when was all this revealed? evidently i missed it. he's always been one of my favorite of the x-men.

    draxton: thanks for the new pic. personally, i like the costume. i was afraid they were gonna make her look too lipstick.

    ed
    \"i think this line\'s mostly filler\"--willow rosenberg, once more, with feeling, season 6, buffy the vampire slayer

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: hm

    Quote Originally Posted by ed
    tin soldier: maybe so, but i've read a number of stick's posts and he's usually pretty clear in his thinking and explanations. perhaps it would be best if we let stick speak for himself. heaven knows the man's capable of it. :>

    ed
    True, and I thought of that when I posted it. It's just that I generally agreed but it's just the way that he said it -- oh, we've already had this conversation :D !

  16. - Top - End - #46
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Batwoman Is Back as a Lesbian

    Quote Originally Posted by Ing

    Catholic Superheros:
    Daredevil: one of his motivations is "catholic" guilt, this was played up in the movie
    Nightcrawler: Is VEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERY catholic. was once in the seminary but concluded that it wasn't god's path for him after some soul searching
    Bruce Wayne: non-practicing Catholic or Anglican

    (technicly fundamentalist isn't a religion its a pt of view, and often one that consists of i'm right end of story, but i think you meant Evangelical christians some include)
    Ultimate Rogue
    Superman: with the small town christian values
    the Crazed military scienctist from: GOd loves man kills (hey not every character has to be a positive role modle for their ideology)

    Later Day Saints
    I believe Blade was mentioned as this

    Jewish
    Kitty Pryde
    Magneto (lasped)
    Ben Grim AKA The THING

    its pretty diverse out there allready in terms of religion. however its been a LONG time comming for sexual diversity, the ban agianst gay and bi characters has hurt the industry, causing them to scrap some good ideas and bring in bad ones. heres some examples of how its hurt the industry

    1) Nightcrawlers parentage.
    INTENDED: Destiny is his mother impregnated by Mystique in male form. note that his Catholic beleifs might cause some hellofa good drama if this were revealed just to add to the delightful chaos
    WHAT WE GOT: his father's an immortal demonish mutant (supposidly the devil is based on this mutant) who was banished to another realm by Angel's descendants. this brings several problems...1) Azreal the demon guy, has been shown leaving the plane to impregnate women...why does he keep going back. 2) Marvel verse allready established that there are REAL demonic forces. Mephistopholis for example had previously been stated as being many culture's iinspiration for their Devil characters. there was no reason to rewrite the demonic origins into a mutant POV when you allready achknowledge there are Real freaking demons....

    please don't let this tripe happen to your favorite comic book
    Thanks for the list.

    In Christianity, "fundamentalist" refers to people who believe in getting back to the "fundament" or root of Christianity--the New Testament. Their basic perspective is that the Old and New Testaments mean what they say, rather than being allegorical as non-fundamentalists often claim. "Evangelical" refers to those who believe that Christianity places a duty upon them to "evangelize" i.e. spread the Word of God. Not all evangelical Christians are fundamentlists, but so far as I know, all fundamentalists are evangelical--that is, they believe that the New Testament specifically charges them to go out and covert other people, and that one cannot be a good Christian without trying to save others from Hell, which according them one an do ony by accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. So where I used "fundamentalist" I mean it, and not "evangelical."

    Let me emphasize once again that I am explaining, not evangelizing, because I am not Christian, but Jewish, not an observant Jew either.

    Speaking of Judaism: nobody talks about non-observant Jews (like Magneto or me) as "lapsed." Indeed I have rarely heard anyone use that term for anyone who has stopped practicing a religion other than Catholicism, though "lapsed" does get used from time to time in other contexts.

    When DC decided they wanted more black superheroes, they didn't turn Hal Jordan black, they invented John Stewart, and in so doing, created a cool new character. If they want a gay Batwoman, let them invent a new one instead of rewriting the existing one. If they have to be politically correct, they could at least be original about it.
    Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

    The irony is that my favorite colors are black and red, and I almost always play chaotic good characters.

  17. - Top - End - #47
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Batwoman Is Back as a Lesbian

    Quote Originally Posted by Ing
    Jewish
    Ben Grim AKA The THING
    Speaking of'things'... Was he originally Jewish or did he convert post-metamorphosis? I only wonder because there is that minor surgical procedure involved in being Jewish and how do you perform it on a thingie made of rock?

    These are the questions that keep me awake at night...

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: Batwoman Is Back as a Lesbian

    It's not that big of a deal. Marvel already has multiple gay characters. Of course, they were all in team comics. I just hope that they make her the superhero who happens to be lesbian, instead of the lesbian superhero.
    Avatar by DarkCorax

  19. - Top - End - #49
    DeathQuaker
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    Default Re: [shrugs]

    Quote Originally Posted by CelestialStick
    Let's see: "new" character has the same name as an "old" character, including the same alter ego name. Sounds like the same character to me. Indeed it is the same character, or people wouldn't be debating whether the change is good or bad.

    In any case, getting snippy doesn't make you more persuasive; it just shows your lack of tolerance for anyone who doesn't march in lockstep with your beliefs.
    WHOAH whoah whoah whoah. Okay, I got snippy, I am SORRY. But somewhere along the lines things got a little out of hand here. I felt you misread the article. I pointed out, strongly, why. I am STILL of the opinion that people are not realizing that the character in question is a nod to another character that died 27 years ago and that therefore doesn't constitute a huge change/big deal. That is, however, my opinion.

    You CLEARLY disagree. That's fine. Contrary to what you might think, I have no problem with someone disagreeing with me. I just encourage people to back up what they know with facts. I felt you had very seriously mis-read the article and were perpetuating fallacies based on that misreading. Hence the strong language, because otherwise I felt I would be ignored.

    I am sorry for upsetting you.

    If you don't want to discuss anything political, then don't discuss it. Don't discuss politics and then claim that you don't come here to discuss it. At least be honest.
    I didn't feel that I discussed anything political in that quote. I did mention in a subsequent post that I agreed with the folks that some of the seeming "PC-ness" is exploitative. Other than that, anything that sounded political was unintentional, and again, I sincerely apologize.

    Fundamentalist Christians don't believe anything that wasn't considered mainstream Christianity a few decades back, and indeed share a good deal of beliefs with the largest Christian denomination in America, Catholicism. It's the people who have, like you did here, tried to portray anything seriously Christian as "extremism" who are the extremists.
    What? Huh? Where did I mention Christians at all? (Apart from describing Huntress as Catholic.)

    I mentioned "not fundamentalists of any religion." I have been led to believe that fundamentalists are very, very extreme. (And "extreme" isn't bad, per se, just hard to write in something written for general consumption, like a comic book, which is why I thought they would not be included in comics.) Perhaps, as it appears, I misunderstood the word "fundamentalist."

    I was not intending to say anything nasty about Christians nor any other religion in general in any way, and do not feel that I did. Again, it seems I misunderstood the term "fundamentalist." I am very sorry for doing that. I was not looking to pick a fight over that. It was a poor choice of words.

    (Addendum: And didn't I say ignorance was the source of most debate? See? I've proved my point, if rather embarrasingly. :) )

    For the record, I am a devout and practicing Christian Quaker (hence the avatar). I have absolutely no problem with anyone devoting themselves to a religion, as I do myself. And being a Christian, specifically, it's awfully hard for me to be intolerant of the actual faith that I practice. :)

    So there's one Catholic superhero?
    As I'd mentioned, she was just an example. :)

    Hey, that's great! Was she Catholic in any meaningful sense or just a token Catholic?
    Yep, and nope. It was just part of her character.

    Did she act in any way in line with serious Catholic theology
    Yes and no, and when she felt she had seriously fallen out of her faith's teachings is when she had her crisis of faith. It was a very good story.

    Frankly I don't really care whether they have a Jewish or Catholic or fundamentalist Protestant superhero.
    Well, you did ask. :)

    I really feel at this point you greatly misunderstood a lot of what I said, and I hope I've cleared things up a little. We seem to have gotten off on the wrong foot, CelestialStick, and I apologize for my part in that in getting "snippy." I won't bother you any further.

  20. - Top - End - #50
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    [deleted earlier comments as they were based on a misreading of somebody else's comments about a "rocky thingie." ;)]

    Quote Originally Posted by DeathQuaker

    WHOAH whoah whoah whoah. Okay, I got snippy, I am SORRY. But somewhere along the lines things got a little out of hand here. I felt you misread the article. I pointed out, strongly, why. I am STILL of the opinion that people are not realizing that the character in question is a nod to another character that died 27 years ago and that therefore doesn't constitute a huge change/big deal. That is, however, my opinion.

    You CLEARLY disagree. That's fine. Contrary to what you might think, I have no problem with someone disagreeing with me. I just encourage people to back up what they know with facts. I felt you had very seriously mis-read the article and were perpetuating fallacies based on that misreading. Hence the strong language, because otherwise I felt I would be ignored.

    I am sorry for upsetting you.


    I didn't feel that I discussed anything political in that quote. I did mention in a subsequent post that I agreed with the folks that some of the seeming "PC-ness" is exploitative. Other than that, anything that sounded political was unintentional, and again, I sincerely apologize.


    What? Huh? Where did I mention Christians at all? (Apart from describing Huntress as Catholic.)

    I mentioned "not fundamentalists of any religion." I have been led to believe that fundamentalists are very, very extreme. (And "extreme" isn't bad, per se, just hard to write in something written for general consumption, like a comic book, which is why I thought they would not be included in comics.) Perhaps, as it appears, I misunderstood the word "fundamentalist."

    I was not intending to say anything nasty about Christians nor any other religion in general in any way, and do not feel that I did. Again, it seems I misunderstood the term "fundamentalist." I am very sorry for doing that. I was not looking to pick a fight over that. It was a poor choice of words.

    (Addendum: And didn't I say ignorance was the source of most debate? See? I've proved my point, if rather embarrasingly. :) )

    For the record, I am a devout and practicing Christian Quaker (hence the avatar). I have absolutely no problem with anyone devoting themselves to a religion, as I do myself. And being a Christian, specifically, it's awfully hard for me to be intolerant of the actual faith that I practice. :)


    As I'd mentioned, she was just an example. :)


    Yep, and nope. It was just part of her character.


    Yes and no, and when she felt she had seriously fallen out of her faith's teachings is when she had her crisis of faith. It was a very good story.


    Well, you did ask. :)

    I really feel at this point you greatly misunderstood a lot of what I said, and I hope I've cleared things up a little. We seem to have gotten off on the wrong foot, CelestialStick, and I apologize for my part in that in getting "snippy." I won't bother you any further.
    Thank you for your apology and if I misinterpreted what you meant then I'm sorry too. :)

    Edit: Of course Quaker beliefs have been at odds with the beliefs of many other Christian denominations since the get-go; peacefully at odds, you might say. ;)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prince of Cats
    Speaking of'things'... Was he originally Jewish or did he convert post-metamorphosis? I only wonder because there is that minor surgical procedure involved in being Jewish and how do you perform it on a thingie made of rock?

    These are the questions that keep me awake at night...

    BEn Grimm has always been Jewsih, they just wern't allowed to say it until censorship was lowered.

    nidently the THING movie rocks and is kick ass....The THing comic character is the Earth element to the fantastic Four

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ing


    BEn Grimm has always been Jewsih, they just wern't allowed to say it until censorship was lowered.

    nidently the THING movie rocks and is kick ass....The THing comic character is the Earth element to the fantastic Four
    Ah, here, I found his Wikipedia entry, and here's a snippet:

    Some personality traits of the cantankerously lovable, occasionally cigar-smoking, Jewish native of the Lower East Side are popularly recognized as having been inspired by those of co-creator Kirby, who in interviews [citation needed] said he'd intended Grimm to be an alter ego of himself. However, as was usual for comic-book characters of that era, no religion was publicly mentioned. Grimm has since been revealed to be Jewish, like Kirby; the revelation occurred in Fantastic Four (Vol. 3) #56, published in August 2002, in a story titled "Remembrance of Things Past".

    I think, by the way, that the censorship was self-censorship on the part of Marvel: there certainly wasn't any federal law which with I'm familiar that kept Marvel from saying that The Thing is Jewish. Most likely they were just afraid they would lose readership back then, though I wonder if that's really true or if they were just unnecessarily afraid of it.

    I read the Wikipedia entry on Huntress and see that there have been several different versions. Apparently one version had her as the child of a Mafia don, and thus Catholic. She does, however, sleep around quite a bit according to the entry, so it doesn't sound much like she's a practicing Catholic. Alas the entry contains nothing about her crisis of faith. :( On the flip side, however, it does contain a couple of hot drawings of her. ;)

    Edit: From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Jump to: navigation, search

    List of Catholic superheroes is a list of superhero characters whose Catholicism plays a significant or intense role in their characters stories.

    * Crazy Jane
    * Daredevil
    * Jackie Estacado
    * Gambit
    * Huntress
    * The Magdalena
    * Nightcrawler
    * Sara Pezzini
    * Polaris
    * Havok
    * The Punisher
    * Venom


    Edit: Also from Wikipedia:

    Each of these characters are all three of the following (1) Jewish in practice, not just Jewish in background, (2) superheroes, and (3) primarily associated with comic books. Exceptions to each of these are noted separately below.

    * Atom Smasher (formerly Nuklon of Infinity, Inc.) (DC Comics)
    * Colossal Boy of the Legion of Super-Heroes (DC Comics)
    * Doc Samson (Marvel Comics)
    * Justice (formerly Marvel Boy of the New Warriors) (Marvel Comics)
    * Masada (Team Youngblood)
    * The Monolith (DC Comics)
    * Nite-Owl II (DC Comics Alan Moore's The Watchmen)
    * Prime (Malibu Comics)
    * Ragman (DC Comics) Ragman (miniseries) #1 Oct. 1991 DC Comics
    * Sabra (Marvel Comics)
    * Seraph of the Global Guardians (DC Comics)
    * Shadowcat (Kitty Pryde) of the X-Men (Marvel Comics)
    * Songbird of the Thunderbolts (formerly Screaming Mimi)
    * The Thing (Ben Grimm) of the Fantastic Four (Marvel Comics)
    * Volcana (Marvel Comics)
    * The Escapist

    [edit]

    Non-Jewish in practice, though Jewish in backgrounds

    * Iceman (Marvel Comics) - half-Jewish
    * Moon Knight (Marvel Comics) Moon Knight (1st series) #37 May 1984 Marvel Comics
    * Sandman (Golden Age) (DC Comics) - half-Jewish
    * Phantom Stranger (DC Comics) - possibly Jewish
    * Gertrude Yorkes of the Runaways (Marvel Comics) - Jewish family, currently agnostic
    * Magneto (Marvel Comics) - born Jewish and as a boy was a Jewish prisoner at Auschwitz, but turned his back on his human ethnicity and religion and has for years only identified himself as a mutant. [1]
    * Scarlet Witch -- Wanda Maximoff -- self-identifies with the Roma people, raised by Roma, her mother Magda was Roma, and an Auschwitz survivor, but her father Magneto was born Jewish.
    * Quicksilver -- Pietro Maximoff -- he has not so completely identified himself with the Roma, but like his twin sister Wanda Maximoff, was raised by the Roma and his mother was Roma, while his father is the Jewish Magneto.
    * Nyssa Raatko -- Jewish mother, non-practicing.
    * Polaris -- possibly Jewish father.
    * Sublime (Wildstorm Comics) - Jewish mother and raised in a Jewish household but non-practicing.

    [edit]

    Other comic characters who are not superheroes

    * Reuben Flagg (American Flagg!)
    * Harvey Pekar (American Splendor)
    * the main characters in Maus
    * Bernie Rosenthal, ex-girlfriend of Captain America (Marvel Comics)
    * Two-Gun Kid (Marvel Comics)
    * Arthur (The Tick)
    * Jonathan August (Albino Comics)
    * Aurora Rabinowitz Marvel Comics Tomb of Dracula

    [edit]

    Not primarily associated with comic books

    * Jesus Christ, The New Testament
    * The Hebrew Hammer (Mordechai Jefferson Carver) (Movie) (2003)
    * Ron Stoppable (sidekick to Kim Possible) (Television) (2002-2005)
    * Captain Hero (Drawn Together)
    * Willow Rosenberg (Buffy the Vampire Slayer)
    * Jewcano (Minoriteam)

    [edit]

    Also of Note

    There also exists a team of Judaicly themed superheroes known as "The Jewish Hero Corps", printed by Leviathan press. They include Menorah Man, Yarmulke Youth, Matzah Woman, Driedel Maidel, Magen David, Minyan Man, and Shabbas Queen. They are not commonly recognized as actual characters primarily because only one issue of the comic is known to have been produced at this time.


    I might also add that when I was a kid there was a comic book about the characters Batmensch and Rubin. It contained one particuarlly funny scene picturing a Superman-look alike with Batmensch saying to to Rubin, 'Funny, he doesn't look Jewish.' :D

    Edit: I Googled "Batmensch and Rubin" and discovered that Pocket Books published it back in 1966, which puts it out at the same time as the campy Batman live-action tv series. I also discovered that there's another 45-year-old man who remembers Batmensch because he's running around the internet with the username "Batmensch." :D
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  23. - Top - End - #53
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    yah so like i said there's plenty of religious diversity.

    the "self-censoring" is kinda iffy since there was that Comiccode authority that stamped stuff they approved of and claimed it was evil if they didnt have their stamp. its primarily the reason u started having campy superheros...such as Gaybatman and pedophileRobin, or overly cub scout superman, or vibrating molecules solve any problem flash

    fun story: Spiderman was the first to buck them and publish without their authority


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    This is a very cool thread. My compliments to everybody involved. Things heated up for a while, but now everyting is all nice and civilized again. I hope the mod's won't shut this down for touching on real world religion and sexuality.

    But back on the topic. Fundamentalist ultimately means the same in religion and in philosophy. A fundamentalist takes some things as fundamental truths. Some things are seen as self-evidently true, and they are used as the building blocks of a worldview.

    A fundamentalist christian conciders the existance of God (and Jesus) as fundaments (and some other christian beliefs as well usually) and his/her worldview springs from these things. This makes rational discussion with an atheist or an agnostic very difficult for these people (just an observation).

    As for gay superheroes (male ones) one of the most cool and powerful supers in Stormwatch / Authority is Apollo, and he has a serious relationship with another male superhero in the same team. That doesn't feel PC at all, and it's not used as a "OMFG! Those guys are GAY!!" gimmick, but rather as a normal part of life for those characters and their team-mates. If anything some of their team-mates are jealous of them managing to find and maintain a steady and working relationship.

    edit: I didn't know Ben Grim is jewish either. Stoopid timid Marvel keeping secrets about my favorite superhero!

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    Semi on topic note, Superman was originally jewish before he was made into a proper comic book character like we know him today.

    Back on topic... Unless they over do it I think it will just be an interesting deviation, nothing spectacular but just another personality trait which could be used for some interesting storylines.
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    true but funadmentals of christianity is accepted by most of everyone who calls themselves christians.

    in the US at least, it has unfortunatly, taken to refering to a specific form of protestant Christians. and unfortunatly the conotation of their use of the word boils down to "These are the basic grounds of the religion, if you don't agree then you're not christian". in America its used to refer to a heterogenius often radical group of sects lacking a central authority or shared ritual structure but sharing a semi-unifying set of beliefs, that at times seem more political than spiritual

    this is not a dig at Christians, i am mearly making a statement that fundamentalists as the term is used in the states refers usually to this alleged group of christians, regardless of whether or not they are a) really funadmentlist to christian teachings or b) even have beliefs REMOTELY christian like. for example there is the God hates... web sites, run by a group of chaps who consider themselves fundamentalists but whose idology matches Jim Jones more than it does JC. unfortunatly just as Conservative no longer means what its supposed to in the american geo-political landscape fundamentalist is not a term bastardized beyond any orignal meaning.

    my 2 euros there



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    Quote Originally Posted by Prince of Cats
    Speaking of'things'... Was he originally Jewish or did he convert post-metamorphosis? I only wonder because there is that minor surgical procedure involved in being Jewish and how do you perform it on a thingie made of rock?

    These are the questions that keep me awake at night...
    It wouldn't be an issue, since it's only performed on a baby boy, never on an adult. At least to my knowledge, which is pretty good, since I'm Jewish.
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    why does the term Jackhammer and sand blaster come to mind?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Blinky

    It wouldn't be an issue, since it's only performed on a baby boy, never on an adult. At least to my knowledge, which is pretty good, since I'm Jewish.
    Well, it's performed on adults in the Bible, although it could be that in modern Judaism it isn't.
    HUMANS....... ARE....... SUPERIORRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    But she was naked! And all... articulate!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Holy_Knight
    Well, it's performed on adults in the Bible, although it could be that in modern Judaism it isn't.
    More to the point non-Orthodox Judaism, Orthodox might although certainly isn't required. There are certain more extreme sects, as in any religion, that might suggest that.

    All that being said Batman is generally suggested to be a non-practicing a Catholic. As for our new Bat character, like I need another one to keep track of. That being said with the whole One Year with not Bats, Supes or Wonder Woman things should be interesting allow more focus on some of the lesser know characters.

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