[Steam]Survivors Vs. Blu Team Vs. Gordon Freeman Vs. Little Babies Vs. GLaDOS

[Mtg_player_zach]

How about this then. If that's the case, then here's another example that should be fixed.

You can't heal a spy disguised as an enemy.

Why? Because it gives away their cover. I don't want some medic who doesn't know what he's doing healing me and giving my cover away to the other team. An enemy medic healing your own team mate is a fairly dead give away that it's a spy. So that needs to be fixed because the medic being able to heal me is affecting my play style and it was not my choice to be healed.

This is however keeping the roles of the classes the same, and only relying upon the intelligence of the players to allow it to work correctly.

I have called for medic while disguised.....its still a good thing. If I'm on fire, I don't want to have to shoot, then call for medic, then get healed. I want the healed right away. There are also situations where you just don't care if your disguise is given away since you can just pick a new one/cloak. Chances are if you are good they are aware of your existence and are keeping an eye out anyway. Them seeing a medic healing a friendly won't be like omg that team has a spy.

[Griever]

As another medic main person, gonna have to agree with Dogmantra:

Way too many soldiers pull out their Equalizer to randomly hit their allied teammates in the first few seconds of a map and then jump around getting in my way because they can't keep their fingers still. Jumping when everyone is frozen is reserved for the medic, so we can fill our charge faster by targeting more people than those directly in our line of sight. [/pet peeve]

Also, plenty of times I'm pocketing a soldier who is decent, a scout appears from thin air (they do that around me, quite annoying), takes me down to about 50-100 hp before the soldier kills him. Then, bam, a moving sentry comes around the corner and I have to hit uber. At best, the soldier is down 2 rockets and a full shotgun, at worst, he is empty. My luck is consistent, it will be the latter. At this instant, there is no greater friend than the shovel. Beat that level 2.5 sentry to DEATH, don't waste uber reloading, we have things to kill, Russian things.

Pointless point that annoys me anyway: Hurting yourself is all but useless in any start-up time, any decent medic can keep most of the team fully overhealed and get their uber with 20 seconds to spare, stop making me chase you down while you scream for a medic.

[Worira]

Yeah, equalizer soldiers are very slightly worse in an uber. So are natasha heavies.

[The Linker]

Citizens of the playground! I'm thinking of running City 17 in L4D2 in an hour with whoever'll join me. 11:00 PM PST, 2:00 AM EST.

[Worira]

Whaa? That is the worst time.

[The Linker]

Pretty much the only time I can reliably set aside for anything gaming-related. Night owls and Europeans welcome, I suppose. Also Australians.

[shadow_archmagi]

I like the Equalizer because it is a last ditch effort. It's quite common for me to emerge from a firefight with few or no hitpoints, and so knowing that I can WHOOSH back to HP with a good chance of obliterating anything between me and HP is very helpful.

[Byrnbot08]

I seriously can't believe that I'm continuing this.

THE JIBPOCALYPSE

CHAPTER ONE point NINE RECURRING

Aw c'mon. I wanted to kill him in a dramatic and heroically overblown fashion. Not some moral aesop.

THE JIBPOCALYPSE

CHAPTER TWO, SEGMENT 0, PART THE FIRST

Somewhere in Ruritania.

The being awoke on an operating table, the flickering light flashing itself into his eyes. He felt somewhat... tired. And restrained.

He tried to call out.

"..." Something was in his chest... he could feel a dull throbbing. He struggled against the straps.

"Ah, you're avake at last,"

He turned his head to his left. A doctor was carefully examining him, for what he was not sure.

"It's good to have you with us; if ve had been a moment later, you vould have died right there and then," the doctor explained, "You should be thankful for my efforts."

"..." He wanted to direct the doctor's attention to the shrapnel probably still stuck in his leg. The painkillers were probably wearing off.

The doctor shifted his attention to the bizarre sets of tools next to him, jagged and very shiny. Almost too shiny to be friendly. "You may find that ve're halfway done here. You'll be free to go back to sleep in a matter of time my friend."

"..." Wait, his legs were gone, he realised. He started twitching in confusion and horror as he began to contemplate not being able to walk again.

The doctor chuckled with glee, "For a minute there, I almost saw a look of gratitude on your face. Jibar will be very pleased to see vat I've done vith you."

"...!" JIBAR?! He wanted to scream. He couldn't find the words, this was just so-

The doctor injected him with something else. He began to thrash and jitter uncontrollably, his body rejecting the liquid so potently.

"Don't vorry. It'll all be over in a minute Davin," the doctor chuckled, disposing of the needle, very carefully, as he exmained the stitches with pride, "You didn't need a mouth anyvay. Such verds come from them."

Davin's body slowly and surely twitched to a halt. His head rolled back, his eyes uncaring of the glare of flickering lights overhead.

The doctor smiled, "Anuzza successful procedure."

[Dread Cthulhu]

Ooh, new Pendulum album! Awesome! Now they'll be more variety in all those frag videos!

[Volatar]

When is Jibar going to join in on the awesome writing

[Dispozition]

Ooh, new Pendulum album! Awesome! Now they'll be more variety in all those frag videos!

Awesome, just in time for the videos I'm beginning to make!

[Scuzzball]

Ooh, new Pendulum album! Awesome! Now they'll be more variety in all those frag videos!

Please tell me when it does come out. Otherwise I'd forget. And that would be a shame.

[Dogmantra]

What? No. Those are terrible, terrible examples. They don't bear a scrap of similarity to the equalizer. There is just no parallel at all.

No, they're great examples. It's an example of someone picking an unlock, and instead of the weakness affecting just the person who made the choice, it affects someone else too. How about an unlock that slows the Engineer's upgrade and build times down while you're using his dispenser?

Pointless point that annoys me anyway: Hurting yourself is all but useless in any start-up time, any decent medic can keep most of the team fully overhealed and get their uber with 20 seconds to spare, stop making me chase you down while you scream for a medic.

And, y'know, the fact that they patched that somewhere around two years ago so that you get 2.5%/second during setup.

Aw c'mon. I wanted to kill him in a dramatic and heroically overblown fashion. Not some moral aesop.

I think you will find my italics did some foreshadowing there.

[Jibar]

THE JIBPOCALYPSE

CHAPTER TWO, SEGMENT 0, A DIGRESSION

Billy looked under his bed. They were still there. Nomming and gnashing, the yeasty smell of tortillas filling the room and the graters gripped tightly as they ran the cheese across, staring at him pointedly. One had a bottle of ketchup. They were waiting.
"Come on son. It's time to turn the light off."
Billy started, nervously jumping into a sitting position. His dad's considerable frame stood framed in the hallway light. He was leaning on the door frame, a picture frame grasped in his meaty hands.
"It's time to become a man. How will you grow to be big and strong if you're still afraid of the dark."
"But dad, they're looking at me again."
"NONSENSE BOY NONSENSE. There's nothing under your bed. It's all in your imagination."
"But dad-"
"NONSEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE NSE" his dad screamed. The house shook. He brought his great fist swinging at the hall and off went the lights, his knuckles connecting perfectly with the switch.
"Billy"
"Dad they're-"
"Nonsense"
"Biiilllyyy"
"But-"
"NONsense"
"Biiiiiiiiiiiiillleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee"
"Dad they're under-"
"NONSENSE NOW DO I HAVE TO RIP OUT YOUR SPINE AND USE IT TO CHOKE YOU INTO UNCONSCIOUSNESS OR WOULD YOU RATHER I JUST BLOOD EAGLE YOU AND SQUEEZE YOUR LUNGS UNTIL YOU SUFFOCATE TO SLEEP"
His hand gripped round the boys neck and lifted him forcefully, high in the air. Billy could see his house from here because he was inside. His father snorted like a bull, his nostrils flaring, the nose hairs quivering with anticipation.
"You get this from your mother you know, this rebellious streak, this need to make yourself unique." He spat, the floor melting under his acidic phlegm. "God knows you're going to have to give in and accept that you are not a beautiful, unique snowflake. You're the all singing all dancing crap of the world."
Billy pried his father's hand away enough to speak. "Isn't that from Fight-"
"IT'S A FANTASTIC MOVIE AND YOU WILL RESPECT IT. ALL THE CRITICS RAVED ABOUT IT."
"It-it was okay. I just found it's nihilistic overtones unsettling and the homosexual-"
"IT'S A REACTION TO MODERN TIMES YOU'RE JUST A NAIVE OPTIMISTIC SACK OF CRAP IF YOU CAN'T UNDERSTAND THAT! This is it, son, this is precisely what I'm talking about." He dropped his son, he bounced slightly upon landing. "Good night son. We'll talk more in the morning."
And then his father turned around. All the blood drained from Billy's face, his stomach dropped, his breath stopped but he still needed to kinda pee.
There was one attached to the back of his head.
"Da-"
"Good NIGHT. Son. Son no more once light comes again but one more, one another to the inevitable sum." The thing that was his dad left, slamming the door shut. A tumble of locks as a key was turned. The only light the street lamp outside.
Billy pulled the duvet around him, clutching it tight. They were moving beneath him, scratching and yawning and spreading the butter. The realisation of his own mortality came crashing down upon him and suddenly Fight Club was a much better film. Once again they started whispering.
"10, 9, 2, 1, 18. 40. 40. 40. The sum of us all. Soon to be the sum of you. Billy no longer,"
The streetlight outside suddenly snapped off. There were no stars or moon to help him now.

"Jibar forever more."

[Volatar]

ARGH JIBAR! How do I join your team if I don't understand it!

[Byrnbot08]

You don't! HE JOINS YOU.

ACK WORDS WORDS WORDS. Why did Rutskarn start this thing anyway, just curious.

[Worira]

[QUOTE=Dogmantra;8521792]No, they're great examples. It's an example of someone picking an unlock, and instead of the weakness affecting just the person who made the choice, it affects someone else too. How about an unlock that slows the Engineer's upgrade and build times down while you're using his dispenser?
[quote]

Nope. Still an awful example. "Can't use teleporters or dispensers" remains the obvious parallel.

[Player_Zero]

Vis a vis ubering soldiers: if they're not a great soldier you're much better using it on a demoman anyway.

Also, Dogmantra, by your logic using the blutsauger is a detriment to your buddy. It decreases your survivability when you're healing him and thus his.

In other news: people who don't go for direct hits with pipes are small time.

Also, when's this Princess Bride happening?

[Dogmantra]

Also, Dogmantra, by your logic using the blutsauger is a detriment to your buddy. It decreases your survivability when you're healing him and thus his.

The Blutsauger does not remove some of the Soldier's class features. At all. The Soldier being healed can still do anything they want that's provided by the class, assuming they could anyway. The Blutsauger does not stop a Soldier from shooting when you are using it and healing them. The Blutsauger does not stop a Soldier from rocket jumping away from danger. The Blutsauger does not control how the Soldier plays his class.

The Equaliser?
Does.

Worira: You seem to be forgetting that the reason Medics should be healing people is not just to keep the people alive, but also to charge their uber. That's a Medic thing. They charge their uber. It charges twice as fast on people who are not at 150%. Ergo, people who have the Equaliser out are halving uber charge times, and don't say to heal someone else, because 90% of the time, there is only one other person, who is already at 150% health! An unlock that doubles build/upgrade times while you're using the Engineer's dispenser seems like a perfectly reasonable parallel. Slows down the Engineer, just like the Equaliser slows down the Medic. Oh, and this unlock is really cool but it can only get more ammo from taking the metal boxes, and not from Dispensers. That simulates the way that most Equaliser Soldiers run straight past the Medic, take the health pack, then when the Medic's next lit, come back and take it again, despite the fact that if they'd let them be healed for just 5 seconds, they wouldn't have needed the health, and they wouldn't have let the team Medic die.

[Mtg_player_zach]

The Blutsauger does not remove some of the Soldier's class features. At all. The Soldier being healed can still do anything they want that's provided by the class, assuming they could anyway. The Blutsauger does not stop a Soldier from shooting when you are using it and healing them. The Blutsauger does not stop a Soldier from rocket jumping away from danger. The Blutsauger does not control how the Soldier plays his class.

The Equaliser?
Does.

Worira: You seem to be forgetting that the reason Medics should be healing people is not just to keep the people alive, but also to charge their uber. That's a Medic thing. They charge their uber. It charges twice as fast on people who are not at 150%. Ergo, people who have the Equaliser out are halving uber charge times, and don't say to heal someone else, because 90% of the time, there is only one other person, who is already at 150% health! An unlock that doubles build/upgrade times while you're using the Engineer's dispenser seems like a perfectly reasonable parallel. Slows down the Engineer, just like the Equaliser slows down the Medic. Oh, and this unlock is really cool but it can only get more ammo from taking the metal boxes, and not from Dispensers. That simulates the way that most Equaliser Soldiers run straight past the Medic, take the health pack, then when the Medic's next lit, come back and take it again, despite the fact that if they'd let them be healed for just 5 seconds, they wouldn't have needed the health, and they wouldn't have let the team Medic die.

I think this problem could be solved by playing/healing with intelligent, competent soldiers.

[Rutskarn]

Also, when's this Princess Bride happening?

Don't think we know yet. Weekend? Let's ask Sigs.

ACK WORDS WORDS WORDS. Why did Rutskarn start this thing anyway, just curious.

I'unno. Seemed like it had epic potential. I'll get back to it this afternoon, probably.

[Dogmantra]

The trouble is, even good Soldiers who understand exactly how to use it in order to avoid pissing off the Medic can't do it right all the time. I've seen plenty of great Soldiers run straight past me with the Equaliser out while I'm not healing anyone, grab the health, proceed to pocket me and we start dominating. I've seen Soldiers who don't realise there's a Medic behind them despite the fact I said over voice chat that I'm right there, and they run off and die. Even Soldiers who use it to retreat to the Medic often underestimate the healing range and get something else out later than they should to start being healed as soon as possible, and once or twice I saw that lead to their death.

It's not something that can be solved by playing with good people. It's something that can be solved by getting rid of the stupid frigging "Equaliser Blocks Healing" notification that some people who use it don't even know about and stand there hitting you with it while on fire then promptly die and shout at you. If Valve just 'fessed up that making an unlock which had a primary weakness that affected another player was a terrible terrible idea and removed the no healing restriction, then 95% of my problems with it would be gone (the other 5% involve hurt Soldiers thinking that because they're on 37 health it's probably a good idea to charge at the Medic who "won't realise" that they are almost dead and "definitely won't" start shooting them, rather than reload one rocket and take a chance.)

[Emlyn]

Is someone going to resurrect me in this little story or will I have to do that myself? I refuse to die as a moral lesson(especially one that is a lie)

[Byrnbot08]

Woah woah woah. Serious business much here?

I play the Expendable Soldier, what with my Rocket Launcher and Gunboats. Gunboats get me into the battle faster and the Rocket Launcher does good all around damage. I use the Equaliser for suicide rushes, where I am outgunned and outnumbered to try and inconvenience the enemy, or for ell oh ells. I am not really near medics all the time anyway.

However, some people use it as a central part of their playing style; they may use it to quickly move away from battle and to safety.

Yes, they do take your beloved health kits, but they are merely attempting to prevent further losses and to get back into the fight quicker. It allows a limping soldier, the second slowest class in the game, to quickly retreat and recuperate. They may not feel safe until they get that little boost from the health kit.

It is selfish of them to take the medkits when you can heal them back faster, but you know they can forget/ignore/are in too much of a rush to put the equaliser away.

But simply enough, for most Soldiers, the Equaliser is a straight upgrade for them. It is a weapon which encourages them to be aggressive, to be taking damage that could have been sent your way. To kill those who would threaten you, the Medic. Remember that the enemy does not always have a Medic as well, so the soldier is doing damage, which limits the enemy's capability to fight.

'If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight!'

The Soldier's job is to fight your battles without any regards to his safety. The bloody man shoots rockets at his feet to get there. He has no time to bleed and stand around calling for Medic when war calls for him, so why whinge about them not letting you heal them? Heal others if you really feel bad about this, but please don't criticise the Soldier for doing his job.

Oh and Emlyn, I planned on a much more awesome end to your angry angry self in the story. Looks like we need some medi-gel!

[Dogmantra]

However, some people use it as a central part of their playing style; they may use it to quickly move away from battle and to safety.

They can Rocket Jump.

It is selfish of them to take the medkits when you can heal them back faster, but you know they can forget/ignore/are in too much of a rush to put the equaliser away.

It's not just selfish: putting the goshdarned Equaliser away would net them an extra 100 health, and about half the time, let them charge the Medic's uber twice as fast. Everyone's a winner!

He has no time to bleed and stand around calling for Medic when war calls for him, so why whinge about them not letting you heal them?

He doesn't have three seconds?
If he's been behind the enemy lines and messing about, and he's come back after 15 seconds, it will take three seconds to get him back to full, and slightly overhealed.

but please don't criticise the Soldier for doing his job.

Then let the Medic do his job as well.

[Jibar]

I'unno. Seemed like it had epic potential. I'll get back to it this afternoon, probably.

You need something to do now Vatsy and Bruno is finished.
And I need something to do just generally.

Knowledge of where this thing is going would be nice, as I kinda like it right now and would be interested in contributing further.
If Photobucket would load on my borked internet, I would be changing my avatar accordingly.

[Player_Zero]

The Blutsauger does not remove some of the Soldier's class features. At all. The Soldier being healed can still do anything they want that's provided by the class, assuming they could anyway. The Blutsauger does not stop a Soldier from shooting when you are using it and healing them. The Blutsauger does not stop a Soldier from rocket jumping away from danger. The Blutsauger does not control how the Soldier plays his class.

The Equaliser?
Does.

{Additional things}

Your argument is bad and you should feel bad.

[Arbitrarity]

They can Rocket Jump.

Yes, because you use the equalizer when you have health to spare for rocket jumping. Or perhaps you're using the gunboats?

It's not just selfish: putting the goshdarned Equaliser away would net them an extra 100 health, and about half the time, let them charge the Medic's uber twice as fast. Everyone's a winner!

For 3 seconds? Sometimes that's a bit long, and sometimes you need that health boost NOW. If I'm getting chased down, I'm not going to let you heal me for half a second before my pursuer blows me to pieces with splash damage, I'm running, grabbing that half-pack, whipping out the rockets, and killing them.

He doesn't have three seconds?
If he's been behind the enemy lines and messing about, and he's come back after 15 seconds, it will take three seconds to get him back to full, and slightly overhealed.

Yes, because I run for health packs when there's a medic nearby when I'm not in immediate danger... wait, no. And I put away the equalizer when I'm somewhat nearby, though not necessarily at maximum possible range. Sorry, you lose a second. You could have built 2-3% uber.

Then let the Medic do his job as well.

Gunboats stop the medic from doing his job. They gimp the soldier's ability to protect his medic with less reserve ammo, encourage rocket jumping, which typically makes it hard to protect the medic (exception granary, where it's necessary), and mitigate the role of the medic in facilitation rocket jumping. They affect how the medic plays by making soldiers less viable heal targets, and prone to disappearing rapidly.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

There should be no unlock that makes someone else have a weakness. That's my problem. I don't care if the Equaliser gives the Soldier using it a weakness, just I don't want it to give the Medic who's trying to heal him a weakness.

The Blutsauger: Suddenly my Medic is less durable, or has to stop healing me to regain hit points at the normal rate.

The Backburner: Suddenly I burn to death more often if a competent ally equips it...

Targe/Eyelander: Well, there went my team's area denial. That definitely weakens us.

Dalokohs Bar: There went his ability to heal us...

Just how as a Medic I'm less likely to pocket a Targe Demo or a Backburner Pyro, you need to know when you should heal that Soldier and when you shouldn't heal the Soldier. If you could ALWAYS heal him, that's to HIS disadvantage: I've won fights by equalizing the target at the last minute when out of rockets and almost dead. A bit of extra healing and my hp would have been high enough for me to not get the kill, and not high enough for me to have time to reload or get the second shotgun shot off before dying.

And Dog? Hate to say it, but, even if you're a great Medic, you can't be everywhere at once. As a fairly competent Soldier, I know that me being alive is to my team's benefit: thus, the Equalizer allows me to escape and get back to my medic or, if he's busy, say, leading a push, it allows me to run past him to health without breaking our attack strength. I expect my Medic to work with me...if I see that he can heal me without breaking his stride, I'll drop it. If he's needed, then I can get to the health and back into combat faster than I could without it. I've done this many, many times. It works, and it works well.

My conclusions? A competent Soldier will know when and where to use the Equalizer. If you're pocketing me and I'm almost dead, but am at point blank range to an injured foe and out of rockets? Yeah...I may pull out the EQ. And I might just save us both with it. If you find a GOOD Soldier, trust his judgement. It's his job to keep you alive as much as it is yours to keep him alive. Just like he is fully aware that you may run off it you're both really outgunned or you're heavily damaged, expect that he'll use the best weapon for the job at the time it's needed.

[Arbitrarity]

Healblocking is still dumb though. It's not a benefit, it's a disadvantage that has to be worked around.