The Fighter Incarnate [3.5 Base Class] (WIP) (PEACH)

[Lix Lorn]

Hmm. A problem I see with that - every class increases Willpower. So for the cost of a 3rd level slot by an equal level caster, you're doubling your Willpower reserve.

Maybe make it half that number in willpower? Or only count classes that grant full willpower progression? And, only Fighters have any way to USE WIllpower, 'less you're overhauling the system.

Also, maybe the spine shatter would be 'doesn't work on creatures immune to critical hits'.

[Ernir]

What would happen if a fighter incarnate, with path of the anvil and use the special strike from the shoulder focus on a gelatinous cube? There might be a spine in there (from a previous lunch), but I don't think breking it will paralyze him.

A whole lot of nothing will happen, as Oozes are immune to paralysis.

Actually, I think every single one of the Sneak-Attack-No types (Constructs, Oozes, Elementals, Plants and Undead) is naturally immune to paralysis.

Maybe make it half that number in willpower? Or only count classes that grant full willpower progression? And, only Fighters have any way to USE WIllpower, 'less you're overhauling the system.

Maybe it should be like Divine Power, granting full Willpower progression to anyone for the duration of the effect?

Non-multiclassed FIs would need something else, then, though...

That's kinda the point. People may complain about the tree christmas effect, but they'll still want to spend their WBL in shiny powerfull stuff at every oportunity. Someone playing incarnum won't exactly discard magic items. He'll just seek ways to bypass the limitations and still come out as a christmas tree.

Just like a druid will get wildshape armor and pimp his animal companion with metal barding and wild clasps in everything else and the wizard will have a fullplate made of magic scrolls and metamagic rods.

Hmm.

Owell. That tendency is not something I'm going to be able to fix.

[Lans]

What about a burrow speed? It gives it a way to counter various barriers, while not being fantastical. Like 5'+5' per will invested?

[Ernir]

Been rather busy the last few days, editing is creeping in slowly.

What about a burrow speed? It gives it a way to counter various barriers, while not being fantastical. Like 5'+5' per will invested?

Hmm, sounds cool, actually. A very useful form of movement, that.

Digging 5+ feet per round is insanely fast by real-world standards, but it's nothing a plain old D&D badger can't pull off.

[Draz74]

That path has been bugging me for a while, actually. (And so has the
Path of the Shadow Warrior). I wanted a Path to give them a social option aside from Intimidate, but I think I missed the goal, here.

You know what I think is a very appropriate social skill for Fighters, yet basically never discussed? Sense Motive. I love the flavor of a Fighter-type with Setting Sun-like tricks.

First: Willpower makes me think of Will, as in the Saving Throw. Actually, I thought Will was short for Willpower (though a quick check of the SRD shows me that I am wrong). I think Determination might work better - it sounds more Fighter-ish to me anyway.

Seconded.

Third: BAB is usually written out with Iteratives in the table (+16/+11/+6/+1 at 16th, for example) - I think technically by RAW your table would imply that the Fighter Incarnate never gets Iteratives (though, now that I think about it, I almost like that idea... hmm - too much of a system overhaul though.)

While it is too much of a system overhaul for one class to take on, it's a much-needed system overhaul IMO ...

Sixth: On tanking: The most efficient and successful way to make Tanks work is, I think, to steal a term from WoW/4e, "Marks" - give the Tank ways to either force someone to attack him, or else punish them dearly for attacking anyone else.

3.5 has very little of this - there's the Shield Other effect (lets you soak some damage for another; is decent but they're probably still better off attacking the Wizard), the Knight's Test of Mettle (decent but save DC requires Knight levels and anyone but you attacking the target breaks the effect), the Goad feat (absolutely awful), the Crusader's Defensive Rebuke (requires being adjacent to protected ally), and as far as I know, that's about it.

The Iron Guard's Glare stance. Against physical-attacking monsters, it's really a terrifically simple and elegant ability to add "tanking." I wouldn't frankly mind if all tank-type classes simply got it as a class feature (and could use it and any other one Stance at the same time).

[Ernir]

How appropriate that you should cast Raise Thread on this today. I had been working in a few modifications today and yesterday, based on the first actual play experience this class has received.

I ran a one-shot last saturday, where I pregenned the characters, so I made one of them a gestalt Fighter Incarnate//Wilder. Not a very good way to do playtesting, but there weren't enough players to cover all traditional party roles without gestalting, so that's how it ended up.

Anyway, I liked how it worked out, overall. It was actually good at doing things Fighters "should" be good at, like preventing a swarm of Dire Bats from flying down a corridor and munching on the squishies (The Path of the Weapon Master gives huge reach!), and breaking down massive stone doors (Path of the Mauler) before everyone drowns from the room-fills-with-water trap.

Some things I am not very happy with, though. One, I think it has too much Willpower available - he was able to keep most of his Paths fully invested most of the time. This was not the intent. Being caught with your reach up and your SR down when the mage teleports in is something I really wanted to keep as a limitation. So expect a rewrite in the Willpower amount in the next hour.
Second, I am really starting to lose my resolve about keeping the Focuses-interfere-with-magic-items thing. When building the character, it did make me consolidate the magic items into a few powerful ones rather than filling all the body slots with cheap ones, but still. It was mostly an annoyance that I at one point fixed by reslotting an item from the head slot to the face slot. Really, if that happens when I make a character with this class, I really should listen to the criticisms more...

You know what I think is a very appropriate social skill for Fighters, yet basically never discussed? Sense Motive. I love the flavor of a Fighter-type with Setting Sun-like tricks.

Sense Motive it has!

Also, on switching from Willpower to Determination - your seconding has been logged.

On a not entirely unrelated note, does anyone know of a way to make Firefox do a search-and-replace?
EDIT: Nevermind, that's what copypastaing out of browser is for.

[DragoonWraith]

On a not entirely unrelated note, does anyone know of a way to make Firefox do a search-and-replace?

No, and I'd love someone forever if they found a way to. Especially if there's RegEx involved.

[peterpaulrubens]

No, and I'd love someone forever if they found a way to. Especially if there's RegEx involved.

Vimperator and Ctrl-i.

[DragoonWraith]

Wow, if there was ever a plug-in that did faaar more than I wanted it to, that's gotta be it. Sorry, I don't much like Vim, and I have little desire to browse in it, RegEx S&R or not.

[Glimbur]

No, and I'd love someone forever if they found a way to. Especially if there's RegEx involved.

It would be ponderous but possible to copy/paste the post into a word browser and find/replace in there.

[Ernir]

I actually got around to making an example character! A level 5 Fighter Incarnate.

It's... pretty much the same as I'd make an ordinary level 5 trip-Fighter. Which serves to illustrate my point. The difference between this guy and the PHB Fighter:

• He can get his reach up to 20', without even using an actual reach weapon. Hello, hugely improved battlefield control.
• He doesn't need to buy three different magic weapons, his flail, guisarme and sling work just fine without.
• If a quadruped comes along, he can increase his trip checks. (By investing into Path of the Mauler. Costs him reach and damage, but he should be able to tip a mule if he has to.)
• If a spellcaster comes along, he can get a fighting chance by giving himself SR 15 and a (slightly) higher Will save.
• He has skills! Like SPOT!

[Tinydwarfman]

First: Willpower makes me think of Will, as in the Saving Throw. Actually, I thought Will was short for Willpower (though a quick check of the SRD shows me that I am wrong). I think Determination might work better - it sounds more Fighter-ish to me anyway.

Hell yes! I've always wanted the fighter to be the Determinator.

[Ernir]

Two changes.

August 3, 2010: Willpower renamed Determination. Focuses no longer prevent the simultaneous use of magic items.

I did the first one with a simple find-and-replace, if you see any sentences that are awkward and/or wrong, please tell.

The second - well, I budged. I expect this to be a rather influential change.

[Aldgar]

/me casts Raise Dead!

Anyway, some nitpicks:

Path of the Marksman:
The Shoulder focus ability lacks a limitation. It just says "you can subtract a number" and then multiply that by X/2, where X=Determination invested.

Now, someone could get silly and subtract -1000, relying on natural 20's to hit and potentially one-shot any monster that isn't protected by miss chances or somesuch if he manages to roll that Natural 20.

Path of the Berserker:
The duration of the investment is listed as "3+Constitution rounds". Maybe that was intented to be "3+(newly improved) constitution modifier rounds?

Immunity to fear is a flavorful, but quite weak capstone on the Lionheart Path.

[Ernir]

Path of the Marksman:
The Shoulder focus ability lacks a limitation. It just says "you can subtract a number" and then multiply that by X/2, where X=Determination invested.

Now, someone could get silly and subtract -1000, relying on natural 20's to hit and potentially one-shot any monster that isn't protected by miss chances or somesuch if he manages to roll that Natural 20.

Path of the Berserker:
The duration of the investment is listed as "3+Constitution rounds". Maybe that was intented to be "3+(newly improved) constitution modifier rounds?

Immunity to fear is a flavorful, but quite weak capstone on the Lionheart Path.

Missing a limitation on the attack roll penalty? Ooops. Will fix.

At the very least, it should have been Constitution modifier, not "Constitution". It doesn't even specify modifier or score. Sloppy.

How about fear immunity in a radius? Fun for the whole family that way, at least. Takes the Heroes' Feast off the Cleric's hands.

[Gideon Falcon]

Very well done. Also, you might want to specify the ability type (Ex, Su, or Sp) of all the class features. I second the idea of an aura of courage-type ability for the lionheart capstone.

In any case, this is my new fighter.

[Ernir]

The fixes/change I mentioned in my last post have been implemented.

Very well done. Also, you might want to specify the ability type (Ex, Su, or Sp) of all the class features. I second the idea of an aura of courage-type ability for the lionheart capstone.

(Ex) Descriptors added to the class features. The paths are explicitly Extraordinary, but yes, that's important for clarity. Wonder how I managed to not have them for all this time...

In any case, this is my new fighter.

Whoo! \o/

[Benly]

Does the arm focus of Path Of The Tactician also spread the increased initiative bonus to allies when Determination is invested?

[Ernir]

I have made a .pdf containing the class, the Paths, and the supporting material I have created at this date. Reasonably printer-friendly.

This is mostly aimed at tabletop groups, where accessing the internet during play is not feasible.

Does the arm focus of Path Of The Tactician also spread the increased initiative bonus to allies when Determination is invested?

That was not my intent. Will make it clear now.

[Ernir]

Path of the Dragon-Slayer, Path of the Peerless Athlete and Path of the Vigilant Defender have been added.

Also, the Paths are now in alphabetical order.

[Gideon Falcon]

I do think it would be better to make the extra attacks from the path of the outnumbered as simply extra attacks, not as costing an attack of opportunity. Otherwise, your fighters are going to run dry pretty fast unless they are specifically focusing on AoO's, seeing as they'll typically only be getting 5 or 6 a round.

EDIT: Oh, I didn't realize you had already changed that. Nevermind.

[Ernir]

I do think it would be better to make the extra attacks from the path of the outnumbered as simply extra attacks, not as costing an attack of opportunity. Otherwise, your fighters are going to run dry pretty fast unless they are specifically focusing on AoO's, seeing as they'll typically only be getting 5 or 6 a round.

EDIT: Oh, I didn't realize you had already changed that. Nevermind.

Yeah, I came to the same conclusion. AoOs are too limited on too many builds for it to be very good as it was.
Now... well, damn, I don't want to be the one flanking a guy with that Shoulder Focus. Particularly if there are mooks around.

And speaking of mooks. Can someone think of an elegant way to make the best way to get bonuses out of that Path something other than bringing a bag of angry badgers and releasing them before battle? It is, I think, the only Path that grants open-ended bonuses, which raises the question.


Also, what do people think of the capstone?

[Gideon Falcon]

Simple. Take on the army.

Alone.

And win.

EPICLY

[Ernir]

Speaking of Epic, I have added a (meager) Epic progression. It is something that I think people would arrive at rather naturally if they study the MoI epic section and the Fighter progression in the ELH, but there it is.

I make no claims about how well the class actually works at epic levels.

[Ernir]

*Bump*

I have made updates!

Path of the Juggernaut and Path of the Rider have been added. Also, the PDF and the thread should again be more or less compatible. Ahem.

As for the Voice Focus of the Path of the Rider... no, it's not magic. The Batmobile doesn't need magic, does it?

[peterpaulrubens]

So I noticed a few things while rolling up a Fighter Incarnate:

First off, it was a TON easier to look at the Paths and Focuses when in table form, so without further ado:

Path	Lesser	Greater	Greatest
Anvil	Foot	Arm	Shoulders
Berserker	Hand	Arm	Heart
Butcher	Hand	Arm	Heart
Combat Acrobat	Foot	Arm	Shoulders
Cunning	Foot	Eye	Heart
Dragon-slayer	Hand	Arm	Shoulders
Hunter	Hand	Eye	Soul
Imperious Commander	Crown	Voice	Soul
Juggernaut	Foot	Arm	Shoulders
Lion's Heart	Hand	Voice	Heart
Mage-killer	Foot	Eye	Soul
Marksman	Foot	Eye	Shoulders
Mauler	Hand	Arm	Shoulders
Mineral Warrior	Foot	Eye	Shoulders
Outnumbered	Crown	Arm	Shoulders
Peerless Athlete	Foot	Arm	Heart
Rider	Foot	Voice	Soul
Shadow Warrior	Crown	Voice	Shoulders
Stalwart	Crown	Eye	Heart
Stoic	Crown	Eye	Heart
Tactician	Foot	Arm	Heart
Vigilant Defender	Crown	Eye	Soul
Watchman	Crown	Eye	Soul
Weapon Master	Foot	Arm	Soul

I pretty much agonized over which Paths to take, and which Focuses I'd want active at most times. This strikes me as a Good Thing^TM for most of the class features. But... there's significant disparity between the number of Paths that have a Voice Focus and the rest of the Focuses. Only 4 Paths have a Voice focus, whereas the Arm focus has 11 associated Paths, making the Arm Focus almost impossible to not take.

And, of those four Voice paths, two of them (Imperious Commander and Lion's Heart) have a rather significant overlap in their Focus ability. Imperious Commander seems like it would benefit from a different ability, maybe something similar to Mindless Rage (Spell Compendium, p. 142), usable every 1d4 rounds or (8 - invested Determination) or something similar. That would fulfill the Tanking and Battlefield Control goals while also distinguishing Imperious Commander from Lion's Heart.

Also, I was confused as to whether you can take Extra Determination more than once. I assume one cannot, but most similar feats (Extra Music, Extra Turning, etc.) can be taken more than once. It might be good to state it explicitly either way.

Finally, Blade Magic Aptitude has a reference to "Blade Magic Training" in the Special: section.

[Ernir]

The table! It's great!

there's significant disparity between the number of Paths that have a Voice Focus and the rest of the Focuses. Only 4 Paths have a Voice focus, whereas the Arm focus has 11 associated Paths, making the Arm Focus almost impossible to not take.

This is a result of me simply not having counted when I first made the class, instead just assigning whatever focuses "felt right". And since this is a martial class, the more physical focuses ended up feeling right more often.

Kind of hard to fix at this point...

of those four Voice paths, two of them (Imperious Commander and Lion's Heart) have a rather significant overlap in their Focus ability. Imperious Commander seems like it would benefit from a different ability, maybe something similar to Mindless Rage (Spell Compendium, p. 142), usable every 1d4 rounds or (8 - invested Determination) or something similar. That would fulfill the Tanking and Battlefield Control goals while also distinguishing Imperious Commander from Lion's Heart.

Hmm. You're right. I saw synergy between the Lion's Heart voice focus and the Imperious Commander's crown and soul focus, but the Voice focuses are very similar.

Also, the voice focus of the Imperious Commander is kind of weak. Changing it now.

Good idea on the Mindless Rage spell. Think I'm going to use that for a new Path.

Also, I was confused as to whether you can take Extra Determination more than once. I assume one cannot, but most similar feats (Extra Music, Extra Turning, etc.) can be taken more than once. It might be good to state it explicitly either way.

It was based on Bonus Essentia, actually, which can't be taken more than once. But sure, I can make it explicit.

Finally, Blade Magic Aptitude has a reference to "Blade Magic Training" in the Special: section.

Oops. Fixed!