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    Default BleachITP Reborn: Discussion & Setup Thread 7

    There was discussion of a reboot for the BleachITP-verse. A new beginning, more structured and with an overall lower power level. Similar deal to Ultimate Marvel.

    This thread is for discussing that, to keep it out of the main thread.

    Important stuff so far:

    DISCUSSION THREADS
    First Discussion Thread
    Disccusion Thread 2
    Discussion Thread 3
    Discussion Thread 4
    Discussion thread 5
    Discussion thread 6

    EPISODES

    Episode 1: "Prologue! A new tale, a new Shinigami!"

    Episode 2: Hannibal's Past: Flashback to the Old!

    OTHER HELPFUL LINKS
    Character Registry
    Wiki

    A while ago we chose Central 5, a group of five people who work as a governing body for the Soul Society. They are Kasanip, Zarah, Callos_DeTerran, Sucrose and Frozen_Feet. They are tasked with such tasks as deciding Captain promotions and upholding laws of Seireitei. Details can be found below.

    In the second last thread people voted and decided that there would not be a Quincy vs Shinigami war before the actual start of the story/roleplay unlike in canon. It was also decided through a vote that Quincy arrows would destroy souls as they do in canon through a vote. People are open to the possibility of future conflicts between the two factions and the Quincy learning how to purify souls with their arrows. Learning how to do so would likely be a significant plot point.

    Quincy players have decided that anyone that makes a Quincy should write up a description of their family/clan's history.

    Souls that are fully absorbed and become part of a hollow permanently fuse with it. When a hollow is purified the souls it absorbed are not split up. They are reborn as a single entity.

    Frozen_Feet's proposed take on this:
    Spoiler
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    Life Cycle of Hollows.

    Canny Hollows:
    these are beings like Grand Fisher and Shrieker - normal Hollows that stay behind in Mortal World much longer than usual. Why? Either they still have unfinished business... or they were already crooked in life.

    My reasoning is as follows: when a good Plus turns into a Hollow, it seeks to destroy its loved ones like any other Hollow. However, the mind of the good souls can't hold together once they're done with that. They lack killer's instinct, and might even feel guilt for breaking what was once dear to them in life. This is why they seek oblivion.

    Evil souls, on the other hand, gain much more pleasure from tormenting living beings. Even after they've killed those they had a personal beef with, they stay in Mortal World, because their bestial desires won't let them leave. In a way, they still have something to do that defines them and stops them from losing their inviduality, even if it's only "kill all things":

    Menos Grande Gillians: When a soul becomes Hollow, the first thing it does is destroy all things it held dear in mortal life. In most cases, having lost their purpose and consumed by their own loneliness, Hollows wander into Hueco Muendo, where they instinctively seek out other souls who died in the same way. Seeking embrace of sweet oblivion, they engage in cannibalistic orgy and fuse into Menos Grande Gillian. Fusion of souls is permanent; once eaten by a Gillian, a soul cannot be separated again.

    Menos Grande Gillian's have no identity, only scattered fragments of negative memories and emotions. When such a Gillian is purified, its soul passes into Soul Society as essentially blank slate. However, due to originally being gestalt of multiple entities, such soul has much vaster Reiryoku than normal and is more likely to fragment into Zanpakuto spirit and Inner Hollow. Thus, a purified Menos Grande Gillian is very likely to become a shinigami.

    Adjuchas and Vasto Lordes: As noted, Menos Grande Gillians are gestalt formed from people who died in the same way. Adjuchas happens when the amount of souls reaches a critical mass, causing a new personality to bloom from the fragmented memories. This being is effectively personification of its "cause of death". However, Adjuchas aren't stable, and must keep absorbing other Hollows who died the same way to increase in power. Should they fail to absorb other Hollows, starvation will make them regress, reducing them back to mindless beasts. Once Adjuchas has eaten enough souls, it evolves into a Vasto Lorde. However, this requires that they beat all of their challengers, letting none who manage to eat a bit of them to get away.

    So, why can't Adjuchas who gets a bit of itself eaten become a Vasto Lorde? It's because losing to another Hollow means there's another being with same Aspect of Death who is more powerful. A Vasto Lorde is a Menos who has absorbed or proven itself to be stronger than all other Hollows with the same aspect of death. They are, effectively, anthropomorphic personifications of their Aspect of Death, and rule supreme over lost souls who died that way. As long as they remain undefeated, they are stable; if a Vasto Lorde does lose, it begins to regress like Adjuchas until it can destroy the Hollow that defeated it.

    Arrancars: A Hollow can become an Arrancar in any point of its life, as long as it has a personality at the time. An Arrancar is a Hollow who learns to define itself by way other than its Aspect of Death, thus rising above its bestial instincts.

    All Arrancars are stable. While an Arrancar can keep eating souls to increase in power, it no longer fuses new souls with the core of its person - the nommed soul only loses its reiryoku. A soul eaten by Arrancar is usually reborn as a new Hollow. In any case, eating Pluses or other Hollows is pretty much voluntary for an Arrancar - they mostly do so because there is no other food in Hueco Muendo. Because of this, Arrancars can't be held as inherently worse than humans or Shinigami.

    Menos and Purification: Shinigami who don't remember their lives were Menos who got purified. As the identity of a Menos is effectively a new entity and is only born after death, Konso unfortunately wipes that all away. For purposes of Redemption, a soul which has gone through Oblivion of the Gillian phase is exempt from Hell's punishment. They become Shinigami because of huge amount of Reiryoku they accumulated as a Hollow.

    Resurreccion and Segunda Etapa: Resurreccion is an Arrancars ability to retake its form as a Hollow, and consequently as the manifestation of its aspect. The power of an Arrancars resurreccion is in part directly proportional to how much the Arrancar's behaviour reflects its Aspect.

    While achieving Segunda Etapa is only typical for Vasto Lordes who already rule over their Aspect, theoretically any Arrancar can achieve it through meticulous training and self realization.


    Soul Society and the inhabitants of Las Noches (The King of Hollows, the Epsada and their underlings) have a truce between each other at the start of the game/story but both sides want to break as soon as they gain a substantial upper hand on the other.

    People that want to make captain entries should write up a history for their preferred division including duties, a past captain or two and whatever else you might think important to add. It can be significantly different from canon.

    Strawberryman would like input on how to revise his S.W.O.R.D. faction:
    Spoiler
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    Anyway. In light of some recent changes to our world, it occurs to me I also need to update S.W.O.R.D's writeup. Just so we don't have more clashes;

    I'd like people's feedback/input on the new writeup for S.W.O.R.D.

    So everyone can be happy.

    For reference, the old writeup. The faction itself will be in my sig from now on.


    General
    Spoiler
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    Originally Posted by Zarah
    We need a clearly directed plot in order to keep things trucking along without getting stalled, and I had a thought of a way to help accomplish that. Basically, we come up with some central themes for this game. This isn't a revolutionary idea, and some people were already doing just that in the previous game, but I'm saying we all come up with and agree on two or three major themes for this story. Ones that will continue to appear again and again across many of the plotlines throughout the entire game. It'll help direct the plot and could potentially give some good ideas for other characters. Not to mention, it'll give much more of a satisfying payoff in the end once the themes are fully realized.

    Whatever they are, they should be fairly general, so they can be adapted to as many of the plots that we have going. Of course, we can expand to include as many motifs and themes as we want in our own stories, but if we have a set of continuous themes to draw from, then it'll really help make things much more connected. Even more coherent.

    Obviously, the one I'm gunning for with Kujo is "Law vs. Chaos," and Bleach in of itself has tons of themes we can pick from. "Inner Conflict" is a big one, for example. But hey, I'm open to other suggestions. Any thoughts?
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by KnightDisciple
    I think "Law vs. Chaos" is good.

    I'd like to play off of strawberryman's suggested faction, as well as off of what we've seen in our current game, and suggest something dealing with the question: How far do you go to accomplish something? Do you do evil in the name of a greater good? (Sorry. I couldn't help myself.) Or do you make sure to never compromise your principles, large and small, no matter the cost?

    Not sure how to compress that into a pithy phrase, but there we go.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by KnightDisciple
    The following came about in a discussion about the nature of various Shinigami and Arrancar hybrids and such.

    The Hougyoku is a substance used to perfect the hybridization of hollow and shinigami. It might have been created, or not. If it has, the creators were most likely vanquished by the powers of the Seireitei and Las Noches, who then sealed the thing off into some forsaken spot of some forsaken demiplane, with only the Ghost King and the Commander General being aware of its location. Both factions had problems with mad or power-hungry Artificial Arrancar and Stable Vizards, deciding that it better to forget the thing.

    Shinigami Hybrids:

    Unstable Vizard
    An unstable vizard is a shinigami who, through some sort of accident or other means, has gained minor hollow powers.
    An unstable vizard has access to a personal hollow mask, but does not have any unique powers and his hollowfication never progresses sufficiently to make a resurreccion or segunda etapa possible, and the unstable vizard gains access only to cero and garganta.
    Becoming an Unstable Vizard is dangerous and hardly ever intentional, as the name implies, most accidents that would result in an unstable vizard result in a dead shinigami or a hollow, instead. Unstable Vizards must fight off their inner hollow and hollowifcation fully, to prevent the being from overcoming them utterly, but this is a fight that never truly ends.

    Stable Vizard
    A stable vizard has been created through use of the hougyoku. They do not have to fight off the hollowfication or an inner hollow, which is melded into their person completely.
    A stable vizard has access to all hollow powers (cero, bala, sonido, garganta and hierro), and their masks might grant them a unique power, they also have the power to achieve resurreccion and even segunda etapa.

    ---

    Hollow Hybrids

    Natural Arrancar
    Natural arrancar are hollows who arrancarised themselves, or with the help of other hollows who know how to speed up the process. The arrancar gains an arrancar zanpakutou, which has no spirit, and is merely most of the arrancar's unique powers sealed into sword shape.
    Natural arrancar have access to resurreccion and may develop segunda etapa. But do not have access to shinigami abilities.

    Artificial Arrancar
    Artificial arrancar are created through the Hougyoku. They have the potential to sunder off one of the souls that forms their colective and form it into a second zanpakutou capable of granting shikai and even bankai. Artificial arrancar have the potential to learn shinigami techniques such as Hoho, Kido and Hakuda.

    ---

    Mortal/Hollow Hybrids

    Living Vizard
    A Living Vizard is a mortal with a hollow mask, the mask comes with an innate, unique power, and when on, it gives the normal boosts and hollow abilities. Living Vizards can, eventualy, achieve resurreccion. A vizard mask cannot ever be lost, and if broken it can be resummoned almost instantly.

    Living Arrancar
    A living arrancar gains an arrancar zanpakuto (no spirit), hollow abilities (sonido, cero, hierro, bala) and the power of resurreccion. Resurreccion relies on the zanpakuto, which, unlike the vizard mask, can be broken (in which case it needs awhile to regrow).

    Hollowing
    A hollowing is a mortal who gains the power to turn some body part into a hollow-like version with greater strenght, speed and resilience. The powers in this hollowlike limb can be bolstered through training, but only up to a limit. As this limit is reached the hollowing must, in order to increase her powers, absorb hollow reishi, either form the atmosphere of hueco mundo or through the cannibalization of hollows, which allows even more of the Hollowing's body to turn into hollow-like parts.
    The powers of the hollowing come at a risk, for, when enough of the hollowing's body becomes hollowlike, he risks becoming trapped into the monstrous shape.

    Shinigami/ Mortal Hybrids:

    Substitute Shinigami
    This should be pretty basic and obvious.

    Living Shinigami
    Living shinigami are mortals with access to a shinigami zanpakutou while still in their mortal bodies.


    Sereitei
    Spoiler
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Zarah
    Also, I'm reposting my Central 46 idea, since it got lost two OOC threads ago, and it's far more relevant here. So once again:
    Anyway, we've been going on about all of this and that in the Bleach universe, but I came to the realization that we completely forgot about a little group of people hiding away in Soul Society: The Central 46. Probably because in both canon and our game, they've done next to nothing other than... Well, die. However, I felt that if we were going to go with a new setting, why not actually make them practical?

    Here's what I suggest: We nominate three or four trusted players to act as the Central 46. Any of these people can post as the entire body, and essentially act as an administrative organization both in and out of character. You might think that doesn't make sense, but in actuality, the duties would cross-over a lot more than you might imagine. For example, say a player wants his character to be promoted to a captain at some point in the RPG. The Central 46 would be the ones who analyze the situation and make a decision, but they'd have to look closely at both the character and the player to see if they're ready for the responsibilities. As another example, imagine that a group of rogue Shinigami appear in the mortal world and start causing trouble. The 46 would decide whether or not Soul Society goes to war with them, and thus whether or not any of the more powerful characters get involved in the plot. Think of them like a set of unofficial moderators for the RPG, who keep things in check both ICly and OOCly.

    I think it could also add a whole new layer of role-playing opportunities. Let's say a group of low-powered academy students are training in the mortal world when one classmate decides to do something reckless and ends up getting them into dire straits. They make it back to Soul Society alive and in one piece, but now they have to answer to the Central 46 and explain their actions. Having actual players behind the council instead of just mindless NPCs (or corpses) makes it a bit of a nagging threat in the back of people's minds, and could even indirectly prevent players from going overboard. Since I know that if I were sitting on the council, I would not be a gracious host.

    EDIT: I forgot to mention. I wanted to do something with the central 46 that wasn't "kill them all," and this seems like a pretty practical application of them.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Shades of Gray + Frozen_Feet
    Gotei divisions and their tasks:
    1) Administrative.
    2) Ninjas.
    3) Execution?
    4) Healing+Hospitality.
    5) Messengers.
    6) Reinforcements.
    7) Logistics.
    8) Tactical planning
    9) Recon.
    10) Internal Police.
    11) Fight.
    12) Science.
    13) Patrol.


    Hollow, Arrancar and Las Noches
    Spoiler
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    Originally Posted by Draken
    Now, on to other matters, we need to decide how a few things work. For instance, the menos fusion. When first someone asked what happened to the souls that form a menos, we decided, back then, to have it so that they remain separate (which means when the menos is destroyed all souls are released). But I think it is best if (save exceptions) we have it so that they all permanently fuse.

    This has two benefits:

    1. It adds a depth of moral doubt to the destruction of an arrancar. They aren't mindless monsters like hollows, they can be argued with, and destroying them won't fre thousands of innocent souls. Just erase their memories.

    2. It creates a good "soul number check". We assume that, along with the reincarnations, new souls are, indeed, created. But then... There are only means to increase the number of souls in place. None to reduce them (save awful, vile acts and stuff). The menos "singularity of souls" would be a decent means of keeping the soul population under control.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Draken
    On Las Noches, I was thinking of this organization:

    The King of Hollows: The King of Hollows, duh.
    The Espada: Captain/Nobility Equivalents.
    Fraccion: The liutenants, officers and close persons to the Espada.
    Numeros: The soldiers of Las Noches.
    Rest: The rest.

    I perceive Las Noches as a city in Hueco Mundo, a city governed by arrancar and open to shinigami, mortal and hollow alike. A city where all beneath the artificial sun is under scrutiny of the law enforcement of the city, but where the shady alleys are hive to scum of the worst sort, criminals, traitors, traficants. A place where the Commander General and the Big Bad can look face to face and not be expected to try to kill each other on the risk of losing free access to this (mostly) safe haven.

    The idea here isn't that arrancar and hollows are friendly.

    The idea is that one vasto lorde decided to open his domain to other spiritual beings. Mainly because rational menos actually have very little reason to fight shinigami except spite, this is because your average menos won't ever leave Hueco Mundo unless goaded out by some other force. Menos have no interest in plus or living souls, they eat other hollows.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Draken View Post
    1. I will be assigning the Espada, most likely.

    2. I will also, probably, not keep the numbers strongly tied to the power of each character.

    3. The Ghost King will not be the primera.

    4. My main arrancar character (King's gonna stay in the background) will be the Queen of Hollows, and she will not be an espada either. I will keep those positions for other players.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet View Post
    About Aspects of Death: it's established that once a Hollow has destroyed things that were dear to it, they wander into Hueco Muendo and seek out other Hollows to ease their pain / to forget about their lives. I propose they instinctively seek out others who died in the same way, and thus their suffering condenses into their Aspect. Arrancars gain power when the ascended personality realizes this and works around / with it.

    Fae
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    Okay, I think I now have enough to bring this for discussion.

    The Fae
    Spoiler
    The State of the Afterlife of the British Isles
    Britain’s afterlife is stable – just. Long periods of internal strife between the psychopomps of Britain, known to themselves as the mac Lir or fab Lly^r, and to others as the Fae, left ample time for Hollows to develop and grow. Now, Britain faces a deep-rooted infestation of well-hidden Menos, but the Houses of the British Isles are united in their desire to rid the islands of these threats.

    Annwn – the Afterlife
    The British afterlife is called Annwn, a place that reflects the most untouched corners of the British Isles in its geography. The four courts of monarchs are located in a roughly central location within a few hours journey of each other by normal walking speed. Passage between Annwn and the mortal world is achieved by passing through thick banks of mist that function as the Fae equivalent of Senkaimon. The mac Lir make use of ravens, rather than butterflies, to guide them through the misty realm between Annwn and the mortal world.

    The Organisation of the Fae
    The British Isles are ruled by four monarchs – one each for Ireland, Scotland, England and Wales. Each of these monarchs governs passage of souls into Annwn in the country they are tied to. They each possess three Houses under their command, each ruled by a Tiarna or Pennaeth, individuals equal to the captains of Soul Society. A Tiarna or Pennaeth is directly supported by their Dara or Ail, equivalents to the Japanese Vice-Captains. The rest of the House is made up of thirteen mionn cheangal or lw rhwymo, equivalents to seated officers, plus any other Fae who are members of the House but deemed unworthy of the distinction of the upper ranks. The specialisations of each House vary depending on the current Tiarna or Pennaeth, but it is very rare for their not to be at least one House dedicated to combat in each country at any given time. The ranks of the Houses are held for life, unless the bearer of a rank forfeits it. A House member is usually given a title and land in Annwn upon forfeiting a rank. These titles are hereditary, and their bearers and their family often become the British equivalent of the Noble Houses of Soul Society.

    Every year, a randomly selected twenty members of each House are chosen to leave Annwn and go out into the mortal world and deal with Hollows as they see fit. Fae on such leave from their House are known as Fianna, and are exempt from all laws of their lords until the end of their sojourn and return to Annwn.

    Each monarch also rules a small Royal House. Tiarna or Pennaeth who truly distinguish themselves are promoted to this rank to serve as the monarch’s guardians and personal champions.

    Alongside the House structure exists the Aois-dàna, a loose affiliation of bards and druids that serve as advisors to the lords of the Houses, historians, genealogists, legal specialists, and experts in Ealaín, the British form of kido.

    Capabilities of the Fae
    All abilities the Fae possess are mirrors of the abilities of shinigami. They can walk on air like their Japanese counterparts, and focus their training on Scileanna Laochra (Zanjutsu), Ystwythder (Hoho), Gan a Arm (Hakudo) and Ealaín (Kido).

    --------------------------
    A Note on Language
    Whilst most of the terminology for the Fae is based on Celtic languages, some, particularly the specifics and names of Ealaín, were brought to Britain from elsewhere. These use Ancient Sumerian.
    --------------------------

    In addition, every Fae possesses a Treoir Anam, their equivalent of a zanpakutou. These possess the potential for a Rhyddhau (shikai) and a Nerthol Rhyddhau (bankai) as a zanpakutou does. The only notable difference between a Treoir Anam and a zanpakutou is that the former are quite likely to take a shape other than a sword even when sealed, spears and axes in particular being quite common, and no small number of Aois-dàna druids possessing sickles.

    Ealaín
    The mystic arts of Britain function identically to kido, the spells of a given path and number function the same as their foreign counterpart.

    Spoiler
    Silakus: “Way of Destruction”
    1, Taka (Push)
    4, Sagir (Pale Lightning Flash): Balor! Unlid the third eye that graces your brow, and let forth the spite of clouds!
    11, Nuhuš Gír (Tamed Lightning)
    31, Urinti (Blood Arrow): Balor! Unlid the third eye that graces your brow, and let forth the tide of chaos!
    33, Nissati (Blue Arrow): Balor! Unlid the third eye that graces your brow, and let the west crash forth!
    54, Su-luh Izi (Cleansing Flames): Balor! Unlid the third eye that graces your brow, and empower me to remove impurity from your sight!
    58, Imiuru (Windstorm)
    63, Anurimiriu (Threefold Storm Roar)
    73, Erim Nissati (Host of Blue Arrows): Balor! Unlid the third eye that graces your brow, drown out the sun, and call forth the sundering west winds!
    88, Aralimiriutil (Apocalyptic Threefold Netherworld Storm)
    90, Gitil (Black Ending)
    96, Ašgir Mànu (Single Sword Immolation)

    Girserusu: “Path of Shielding Arts”
    1, Šaga (Captive)
    4, Sigulul (Golden Chain)
    8, Tamšen (Reflecting Mirror)
    9, Eda (Paralysis): Balor! Lid your third eye, call up the hounds of Annwn, and grace us with the living death!
    21, Urinimi (Blood Cloud)
    26, Zah Bu (Hiding Light): Balor! Lid your third eye, turn your gaze away, and put the sun in their eyes!
    30, Ešhu Ulul (Three-Bird Restraint)
    37, Ulgu (Star Net)
    39, Senbu (Shielding Light): Balor! Lid your third eye, turn your gaze to me, and guard me with thine wrath!
    58, Igisar Lasar (Seeing the World, Knowing All): Balor! Lid your third eye, extend your sight forth, whisper in my ear, and let me see thine sight! The sun and moon are my eyes, the trembling ground my ear!
    61, Asni E-kurbu (Six-Body Prison of Light): Balor! Lid your third eye, gift the sun unto to me, and let its halo trap them!
    62, Ûšukur (Hundred Spear Fence)
    63, Gisigulul (Locking Golden Chain)
    73, Išibalsig (Rotated Mountain Wall)
    75, Aš Barzilba-an (Five Adamant Pillars)
    77, Kadigir (Mouth of the Gods): Balor! Lid your third eye, and gift me with your voice! The clouds are as my mouth, and the skies are as my lungs!
    81, Barù-la (Splitting Nothingness)


    Geasa
    Unlike shinigami, the Fae bear an additional restraint upon their power: geasa (sing. geis). These are taboos for the Fae in question that they must not commit, or lose access to spiritual power or suffer some other misfortune. Anyone can bring a geasa on a Fae, though the Fae in question must willingly accept it. Treoir Anam spirits often require their wielder to agree to a geis before granting Rhyddhau or Nerthol Rhyddhau. They also pay a part in Fae society, geasa often being included in oaths to one’s lord or in marriage vows.

    Samsara
    Spoiler
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    Originally Posted by Innis Cabal View Post
    As far as the plot is concerned. Here is my contribution, or at least, hopefully. The Samsara plot, and reasoning for their dark activity.

    As much as I personally loathe the name of our new city, I figured it could be incorporated into the plot. With a little brain storming with Callos, and a look at the set up of the new game, I’ve noticed there are –a lot- of spiritually aware children. This led to me thinking –why- that might be the case. Its not a normal occurrence. So, here me out.

    Phoenix Town () is a center of reincarnation, both out going and inbound to the spiritual world. This inundates the area with spirit particles, thus leading to the relatively high number of the spiritually aware. The Samsara’s main plot in the first game, and the carry over here, is to rebalance the passage of souls, destroying the Valley of Screams, and removing the Blanks from the Cycle of Reincarnation. Thus fixing the balance of the spiritual world. To do this, their plot is to flood the city with Blanks, and over time detonate them once a certain number of highly aware mortal souls are collected. This puts them in direct conflict with the mortal characters for several reasons.

    1. The humans –are- those souls, thus making them prime targets for the Samsara to go after.
    2. This will blow up the city, killing off the whole area. That’s bad for those living inside the city, with family and friends. Making this a plot that –all- mortal characters can get involved in early on.

    Well, that’s my idea for the Samsara plot. Innis tested, Callos Approved. Now, to the playground, think it’ll work?
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Innis Cabal View Post
    The Samsara


    Leadership: “The Boss”
    Second in Command: Go Nagi
    Mortal World Relations:

    Primary Grunt Force: Blanks (Augmented Blanks)
    Physical Location: The Valley of Screams

    Overview: The Cycle of Reincarnation is not a simple or perfect thing. Souls traveling between the worlds sometimes fragment, their memories fading into some unknown location, the soul falling into a realm that should never exist. These are the blanks, souls without memories, lost forever from the Cycle of Reincarnation, unable to return for they cannot remember how. It is unknown how, but when a number of these memory less shells accumulate, a separate realm, the Valley of Screams, is created to house them. This real, lies between Soul Society and the Mortal World. But the memories of these creatures are not destroyed or lost forever. The swirling mass of memories and experience’s coalesces into an object known as the Memory Rosary, the accumulation of all memories lost between Reincarnation and the journey there in.

    The Samsara

    The Samsara are akin to Arrancar in that they are an artificial creation, Blanks granted the copies of memories from the Rosary itself. The likeness between themselves, Shimigami, and Arrancar end at this small analogy, not truly meant to exist the Samsara are the thinking force behind the Valley of Screams, the heralds of those cast out by an imperfect system.

    Standard Powers of the Samsara
    Blank Manipulation: Every member of the Samsara is capable of utilizing Blanks for various purposes. They may duplicate Kido (if their memories contain such information), create weapons or simple items, duplicate flashstep or sonido (again based purely on their memories), or fly. Samsara may also heal with the power of the Blanks, capable of restoring even lost limbs if given proper time and concentration.

    Individual Powers


    The powers of a Samsara depends entirely on his or her memories, granting each a highly individualized level of capabilities and powers.

    What this is, is a simple dolling up of what seems to be the first Villian team of the Reborn game. We're looking for member's currently. So, if anyone's interested, roll a character up and lets see where it goes

    Mortals
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by strawberryman View Post
    ...Okay, well, I assume because there was little reaction it would help if I actually explained what the faction I was planning is.

    It's more or less like the Men In Black... It's a multi-national secret organization that deploys agents to clean up after the various mishaps that Soul Reapers can't. As such, the various Soul Reaper organizations usually leave them well enough alone.

    ...That's their cover op, though. What they are really trying to do is make Mortals able to fend for themselves, and be self-sufficient on the matters of the spiritual. Which meshed pretty well with Ran's goal during the last cycle... but, that's an aside. They track and recruit various spiritual humans: Quincies (in fact that may possibly be a large base of their agents), Living Vizards, various anomalies, just plain spiritually aware humans, or maybe even Bount.

    ...As for why they may be considered villainous or antagonistic to the Enclave is their willingness to do literally anything to achieve their ends; assassinations, theft... etc. And it's likely that the various runes they possess will be like their Holy Grail. For reasons I don't feel like fully explaining, I would like to keep some secrets.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Zarah View Post
    Well, I was under the assumption that Phoenix Town was going to be another spiritual hot spot, which explains why so many mortals are developing their own powers. Of course, the introduction of outside forces will help as a catalyst, but it's mostly just the fact of where the people live more than anything. The same abundance of spiritual power in the city would also explain why there might be various factions vying for power in the region even from the beginning.

    Also, about the idea of the cold war turning hot, I like that plan. I like it a lot. It fits perfectly with Kujo's intentions, and is more or less what I was planning to work toward anyway, so I'm giving it a hearty thumbs up.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Innis Cabal View Post
    Well, here is what I was thinking for the over all "History". Its diluted yes, and I'll extrapolate more on it when I can sit down and really pound it out.

    Spoiler
    The Quincy Bloodlines, as they were, are connected to the ancient Ninja Clans of the Sengoku Jidai, now far removed and interbred with the general populace of Japan, the Quincy themselves would retain lasting familial alliances, hatreds and pacts with other blood lines


    Translators: Word Reference is a pretty good one for English to Spanish. Just don't translate phrases with it.
    Last edited by nothingclever; 2010-05-28 at 09:13 PM.

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    Default Re: BleachITP Reborn: Discussion & Setup Thread 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Innis Cabal View Post
    Alright, it does seem as if I was mistaken. Having re-read over Hirako Yoshi, I have some questions. Well, one question.

    Why did he join up with the Kido Corp in the first place if he felt the psuedo-mystic aspect of Kido to be "Muddied" by ritual and spirituality. Kido would never be taught "as a science". The entire "field" of Kido is deeply entrenched within spiritual, physical and mystic studies. Perhaps at the base level such things are boiled down to some blanket topics and methods, but the deeper one would go, the more one would be exposed to the ideology and intricate teachings of the Kido Corp itself.

    I guess what I'm saying here is, its not like he wouldn't have known well in advance on how the Kido Corp runs in regards to their more seperate and distinct feel against the Gotei 13. It may be possible that Hirako Yoshi simply thought he could deal with it. If thats where your comming from KD then I understand, but thats mere assumption on my part.
    He thought it wasn't as heavy and pervasive as it seemed, and that he could deal with the atmosphere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Innis Cabal View Post
    As it stands Hirako Yoshi isn't just a "Fringe" within the Kido Corp, but the entire Soul Society. Kido works (at least as far as the wide majority of Soul Society is concerned) as its written in the Kido Corp write up. He'd be more then fringe in the Corp itself, he'd be a heritic for proposing the centuries long time tested concepts where in fact needless, and that kido was a science. Would they be militant in their feelings towards him? Certainly not. But with such beliefs, he would be one in probably none in an entire division of 300 people.
    Wow. Gee, thanks Innis. My character is now a "heretic".

    When did Kido become a religion? Because I'm really curious about that.

    And it's fine to say he'd be alone in the Kido Corps. But is it your right to say "All of Soul Society but you views it like this"? Isn't that kind of...god-mod-y?

    But him being a "heretic"? No. I won't accept the use of that term. "Fringe element", sure. "Odd duck", sure. But not "heretic". Pick a different word.

    Edit: And since when did you get to declare how Kido "works"? Kido works like Kido, which is to say like spells. Unless you've radically changed a basic mechanic of the setting, you use an incantation, a certain amount of energy, and maybe a gesture, and an effect happens.

    Are you saying Kido invention happens like you say?

    Because Yoshi probably invented one or two of the kido on his list of "most often used".
    Last edited by KnightDisciple; 2010-05-27 at 10:32 AM.

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    Default Re: BleachITP Reborn: Discussion & Setup Thread 7

    Sorry for double post, want to make sure this isn't lost in the shuffle.

    Changed Aspect back to Darkness, especially in light of Genevova's aspect.

    Vicente, Fraccion to the Cuarta Espada
    Spoiler
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    Name: Vicente Ortiz
    Gender: Male
    Age: ~600, counting his short mortal life, and his days as a non-Arrancar Hollow. ~475 years as an Arrancar.
    Height: 6'2"
    Weight: 165 lbs.
    Reiatsu: Dark Slate Grey (OOC: Speech also bolded)
    Eyes: Black
    Hair: Black
    Aspect of Death: Darkness

    Appearance:
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    Hollow Hole: 1 inch in diameter, in the place most people have a belly button.

    Mask Fragment: A 1/2inch strip of bone going over both eyebrows (and the space in between). At the outer edges of the eyebrows, it angles up at 45 degrees for 3/4inch (here it sticks out on its own, rather than being attached to his face/scalp/brow). Branching off from the middle and down his nose is another strip, 1/4inch wide. It runs just past the tip of his nose, curving a bit, somewhat like the beak of a bird of prey.

    Some might almost call Vicente "handsome". At the very least, he might be considered "striking". Tall, fairly lean, and always serious, he tends to cut his way through a crow with little effort. His black hair is kept on the shorter end, parted from the left. He wears a pair of yellow-tinted glasses, citing a light case of farsightedness. These glasses occasionally seem to reflect available light, generating a somewhat intimidating effect for observers.

    Vicente tends to wear fairly simple clothing. Loose pants, a loose long sleeved shirt. Simple, rugged military-style black boots. He does have an ankle-length black hooded cloak with a white interior that he's rarely seen without. Whenever people see him, he does not have the hood up, and the cloak is worn such that some mistake it for a cape. He also wears a pair of pure white gloves. If someone were to remove his shirt, they'd see he also wears bandages around his lower abdomen, covering his hollow hole.

    Finally, Vicente has taken to wearing a sturdy belt with a large number of pockets and pouches on it. These seem to be made to carry his various inventions he's developed for the purpose of combat. (OOC:Devices detailed further down.)


    Personality:
    Spoiler
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    Complex. On the surface, Vicente seems to be all-business, interacting with other residents will cold professional courtesy. Most people have never seen him smile; some swear he can't.

    He can. Very occasionally, it's a smile produced by debating things with Alejandro, or some other stimulating intellectual conversation.

    Otherwise, he's smiling due to some cruel plan of his coming to fruition. While not the "experimenter" some of his fellows might be, Vicente is know to occasionally take captured enemies, or those who break more minor laws in Las Noches, and experiment on them. Most often testing various poisons, acids, gases, and even weapons on them. Not for the sake of cruelty, but to test the results.

    Of course, even that isn't the full picture. Science is not an end in itself, but a means to a further end. That of sharpening his abilities in the fight against Soul Society. And the occasional hunt for souls, of course.

    In truth, Vicente is a rigid man. He believes in following the rules of Las Noches, at least by and large. Those he doesn't agree with, he will obey in letter but not spirit, often seeking loopholes. He freely uses cruelty, intimidation, torture, murder, and a whole host of other horrid deeds to accomplish his end goals. Outside of a very tiny group of individuals, he is completely willing to backstab, betray, and belittle his comrades. And even "superiors" in the form of other Espada. Vicente crafts multiple plans and contingencies to deal with everyone from the lowest Numeros, to the Primera. He dares not plan against the Ghost King, but he doesn't wish to at any rate; Von Geister is one of the few he genuinely respects, alongside Renee and Alejandro. (OOC:Perhaps others as I get a better feel for characters).


    General Abilities:
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    Bala: Vicente's Bala are notably stronger than average, approaching the strength of his (admittedly somewhat weaker than normal) Cero, with no loss in his firing speed.

    Cero: Vicente fires cero by pointing his pointer and index finger straight, with all other fingers curled back. His Cero are rather weak for a Fraccion (55/100 out of 65/100 would be one way to picture it); however, he is able to continuously fire one for 10 seconds. Combined with the comparatively thin size (perhaps 6 inches across), this makes his cero into a sort of "cutting beam", fitting his precision-based fighting style.

    Hierro: Decently strong, though certainly not his strongest asset. Vicente might not be able to continuously block sword blows (except of someone notably weaker than himself, such as a low Numeros or fresh Unseated Shinigami), but neither will he be sliced in half upon the first or second blow.

    Sonido: Fairly quick. Each jump carries Vicente a good distance (up to a couple hundred yards) at fairly high speeds. More than that, his endurance allows him to string together a few dozen jumps, and if given time to recover for a few minutes, he can repeat such a string a few times.
    Oddly, despite the technique name, his sonido are completely silent.

    Garganta: Basic capability.

    Pesquisa: Excellent. Not only does he get a decent picture of enemy positions, and a hint at their strength, he's able to navigate in completely normally via a modified version of this skill. It only works within about 50 feet, and is mostly effective in enclosed spaces (open areas allow the pulse to dissipate more easily, and things like sand tend to just absorb the pulse), but it's a unique ace up his sleeve.


    Zanpakuto:
    Spoiler
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    Sealed form: A katana with a plain steel blad. The guard is a solid oval, placed so that the longer dimension is parallel with the blade's orientation. The handle is wrapped in leather, with a simple metal pommel cap. The guard, grip, and pommel are all a dark brown, with flecks of lighter brown and white mixed in.

    Resurrección: Ave del Atardecer (Dusk Bird); .
    Spoiler
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    Upon release, Vicente's sword disappears, and his whole body glows for a moment. After the glow dies, it reveals a radically changed man.

    At a glance, Vicente may remind some people of a humanoid Great Horned Owl. Almost all of his body is covered in feathers, most of them a deep black, with some (such as his front abdomen) colored a lighter gray. He retains his pants and belt, however.

    Vicente's feet now resemble 5-toed bird's talons, with everything past his ankle being covered in an odd scale-like iteration of his armor. His toes each have a 5-inch long talon that's as strong and sharp as steel. Just as capable as any sword. He also has such a talon at his heel, albeit only 3 inches long. All are fully retractable. His hands gain the scaled appearance, but do not change in overall structure. He sprouts 5-inch talons from his fingers, as well.

    Attached to his back are two large wings, midnight black, shaped similarly to those of his "totem creature".

    His head has changed rather drastically. It not generally resembles the head of a Great Horned Owl, with a squatter neck, rounded skull, and a Hollow Mask that covers the entire front of his face, forming a beak at the front, as well as extending over the sides and up and out into the distinctive "horn" shape of an owl. His eyes are about 4 times larger than before, protected by a transparent membrane that acts as a weaker version of Hierro (mainly to protect his eyes from debris, both from fights and from flying at high speeds; it cannot protect his eyes from dedicated attack). He can turn his head nearly 180 degrees both left and right, giving him approximately 330 degrees of vision.

    Specific Abilities:
    Spoiler
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    Generic Boosts:Vicente's strength, speed/sonido, Bala, and Cero all recieve a boost of about 50%.
    Flight: Most obvious. Vicente's wings allow him to fly, even if conditions are such that he normally couldn't air-walk. He can't go as fast as when he's applying Sonido specifically, but it's actually less tiring for him. As well, he can dive from great heights to achieve at least some measure of the same speed as his Sonido, albeit with less accuracy and a longer "set-up" time.
    Silent Movements: More even than with his sealed form, Vicente is utterly silent as he moves about. His Cero and Bala make only slight sounds. His voice is, of course, normal, so he has no trouble speaking if he wishes to. But otherwise, he's unnervingly silent. As a nocturnal predator should be.
    Enhanced Vision: Vicente's vision is incredibly augmented in this form. He's able to see incredible detail from over a mile away, with his overall vision (picking up at least general shapes) is often limited only by obstructions or the curve of the world. As well, he's able to perceive subtle motions with a great degree of clarity, as well has having the ability to visually process incredibly fast motion (meaning he can see someone who's moving faster with much more clarity than the average observer). He can now see in even pitch black conditions. He is not, however, especially sensitive to at least normal light levels, though sudden bright light can cause some issues.
    Enhanced Hearing: The "horns" on Vicente's mask, as well as the large rounded areas beside his eyes, serve a purpose: they enhance his hearing in a similar manner to a mortal owl. He is now able to pick up much softer sound than before.
    Softener Hierro: Vicente's base Hierro stays the same. However, it is augmented by the feathers all over his body. They serve to vastly soften any blow coming at his person, leeching an attack of movement-related energies. They also dissipate a small portion of the energies of attacks such as Cero and Kido. This is not an absolute defense, but it is definitely one of Vicente's more useful abilities. It does not actually enhance his Hierro more than is typical for a being of his strength.
    (Blackout Feather) (Refined name pending): Vicente has the ability to fling a somewhat limited (maximum of 20) feathers from his wings, out to a distance of 50 feet. These feathers emit a sphere of darkness 20 feet in diameter. Sufficiently powerful light sources can cancel this effect (special zanpakutou abilities, other such abilities, particularly bright kido, and the like). The feathers cannot cause physical harm being too soft for direct attacks. Instead, they can stick to any target. The darkness and "stickiness" last for a total of 1.5 minutes.
    Vicente can produce these feathers as long as he is released, with no cost to himself. He has no problems seeing in the darkness generated, though almost any other being's sight will be incredibly limited. If it functions at all in such darkness.
    The feathers can be "un-stuck" completely via a sufficient application of one's own energies. The feathers are also vulnerable to being physically destroyed, either via large-area attacks that hit them, or physical damage, typically via someone picking one off of themselves and tearing it in two. Damage to the feather itself negates the darkness effect. If you pull one off of you shirt with your hands, it will stick to your hands; it requires application of spirit energy to non-destructive remove.


    Segunda Etapa: None yet. (OOC:If/when I determine something, I'll post it and notify people. Right now, I've got nothing. He may not ever have one.)


    Other Equipment:
    Spoiler
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    Acid Pellets: Small balls containing a comparatively potent acid. Roughly equal to half the strength of one of Vicente's Bala. 10 stored in belt.
    Blackout Bomb Pellets: Produces a momentary effect similar to the feathers he uses in Resurreccion out to 10 feet. The effect only lasts 5 seconds; just enough for a quick escape. 20 stored in belt.
    Tear Gas Pellets: Produces about 15 seconds of moderate coughing, tears, and nasal irritation. Effect is lessened if subject does not breath in for the 3 seconds gas cloud is effective. Can be avoided by immediate departure from area of forming cloud. Cloud covers 10 feet. Less effective on those of sufficient strength. (OOC: Not a license for every single PC out there to completely ignore them.) 5 stored in belt.
    Tanglefoot Bomb Pellets: Produce ~6 feet of tanglefoot substance on any surface it strikes. This substance notably hampers the movements of anyone touching a fair sized portion of it. Substance dries in 15 seconds, making it very easy to break away. Can be broken by someone exerting enough force. 5 stored in belt.
    Razor Discs: 4 inch wide discs. Between their razor-sharp edges, and the momentum Vicente imparts, they are capable of doing approximately 50% of the damage of one of his bala. 15 stored on belt.
    Grapple Gun: Seemingly anachronistic for a being that can fly and walk on air, Vicente nonetheless seems expert in its use. Not only can he scale fairly large buildings with it, he seems expert at using it to nab unsuspecting victims. 1 stored in belt.
    Reiatsu Cloak: Vicente's trump card, and his most prized possession. This cloak, the one he seems to wear at all times, helps "muffle" his energy signature, making him much harder to detect. Shinigami instruments might well perceive him as a glitch, so long as he isn't using too much power. It cannot cloak the signature of things like his Cero and Bala, and if he raises his reiatsu too high, the effect is partialy nullified, giving away his position. It is "absorbed" during his release (along with much of his clothing), rendering it non-functional. It is keyed to his unique energy, so no other being can use his cloak. Whenever he is asked to make more, he cites a "happy lab accident" that means he can't make another, and he can't trade this one. The truth of this statement has yet to be fully determined.


    Battle Stats:
    Spoiler
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    Offense: 60; Vicente is rather skills in both armed and unarmed combat, rendering him an opponent others must take seriously.

    Defense: 60: Between his Hierro's strength (especially in Resurreccion) and his own learned skill, Vicente isn't an opponent someone can easily harm.

    Mobility: 55: Vicente's sonido is on the high end of average; it is more his endurance than his speed or distance that stands out. As well, he has exceptional reflexes, allowing him to do startling last-moment dodges of various attacks (especially with his augmented vision in Resurreccion).

    Intelligence: 90: Vicente is, frankly, a genius. Not only does he have a knack for combat, he has great invention skills, a strong sense of scholarship in many fields, an inquisitive intellect, excellent observation interpretation skills, and the ability to quickly process new ideas and circumstances. He is definitely something of an intellectual giant. Fitting for the Fraccion of the Cuarta.

    Cero/Reiatsu: 50: Vicente's energy attacks are, ultimately, average. His over-strength Bala are compensated for by his under-strength Cero. Even the continuous fire ability doesn't compensate.

    Total:315


    Possible connections:
    Spoiler
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    -Ghost King Von Geister
    -Cuarta Espada
    -Victims


    Tropes:
    Spoiler
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    Lawful Evil: He's a bad guy. But he's orderly about it.
    What is Evil: Doesn't care about such labels. Just power. And hunting.
    Cool Chair: Has one in his lab.
    Utility Belt: Of Course!
    Grappling Hook Pistol: Helps sneak around.
    Smoke Bombs: In a couple of different ways.
    Crazy Prepared: Or at least he hopes so.
    Properly Paranoid: Las Noches is kind of a scary place...
    Stealth Hi Bye: Between his cloak, and his unusually silent movements, Vicente can pull these pretty easily.
    Evil Twin: Maybe he's an alternate universe one of Satoshi?
    The Combat Pragmatist: Always.
    Pragmatic Villainy: He pretty much does all the horrible things he has and will do for a reason. Mainly to advance the power and safety of himself and his people.
    Scary Shiny Glasses: Of Course!
    (OOC:More to possibly be added later.)
    Last edited by KnightDisciple; 2010-05-27 at 07:01 PM.

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    Default Re: BleachITP Reborn: Discussion & Setup Thread 7

    Art - Homebrew - Avatar adoptions
    Spirit Artist in the Playground

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    Default Re: BleachITP Reborn: Discussion & Setup Thread 7

    Quote Originally Posted by KnightDisciple View Post

    When did Kido become a religion? Because I'm really curious about that.
    Lets put it this way: when did it not? This is magic we're talking about. It's called demon arts. It used by spirits, literal gods of death.

    By those qualifiers alone, it's not a stretch to say Kido is heavily entrenched in mysticism and religion. Many of the spells sound like prayers, or refer to mythology. That this spiritual angle is emphasised in Innis's take on it is a welcome change to me.

    You're right, though, that there are likely wildy varied opinions on Kido, and your character probably isn't alone, even in Kido corps, with his more material or scientific take on it. I'd imagine there are a lot of people in Gotei who see Kido as just another tool, nothing more, nothing less.

    But Innis is right that if your character has an outlook very much in odds with the rest of the organization, he will be viewed as a radical element, and that might interfere with his chances for promotion. Whatever he might be labeled as, it's not really something to get upset about.

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    Default Re: BleachITP Reborn: Discussion & Setup Thread 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Prime32 View Post
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    More like this:
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    Default Re: BleachITP Reborn: Discussion & Setup Thread 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet View Post
    Whatever he might be labeled as, it's not really something to get upset about.
    Yes, this. Please don't get in a fight again, you two.

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    Default Re: BleachITP Reborn: Discussion & Setup Thread 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet View Post
    Lets put it this way: when did it not? This is magic we're talking about. It's called demon arts. It used by spirits, literal gods of death.

    By those qualifiers alone, it's not a stretch to say Kido is heavily entrenched in mysticism and religion. Many of the spells sound like prayers, or refer to mythology. That this spiritual angle is emphasised in Innis's take on it is a welcome change to me.

    You're right, though, that there are likely wildy varied opinions on Kido, and your character probably isn't alone, even in Kido corps, with his more material or scientific take on it. I'd imagine there are a lot of people in Gotei who see Kido as just another tool, nothing more, nothing less.

    But Innis is right that if your character has an outlook very much in odds with the rest of the organization, he will be viewed as a radical element, and that might interfere with his chances for promotion. Whatever he might be labeled as, it's not really something to get upset about.
    To some degree, sure, it could be.

    But ultimately, Kido is spells. Which, as D&D shows us, can be rather scientific, too. After all, with Kido, X chant, Y power supply, and Z hand gesture end up with AA Kido. Always.

    But no, he doesn't get to label him a "heretic". Sorry, I'm going to be firm on that particular word.

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    Default Re: BleachITP Reborn: Discussion & Setup Thread 7

    Not much issue with the promotion on the Corps since he transfered to 12th, where his views are much agreed upon by the captain if by no one else.

    And I think Kazuo will be damn proud of being called a Heretic.

    From merrian-webster's:

    2 : one who dissents from an accepted belief or doctrine : nonconformist.
    Last edited by Draken; 2010-05-27 at 10:54 AM.
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    Homebrewing

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    Default Re: BleachITP Reborn: Discussion & Setup Thread 7

    Quote Originally Posted by KnightDisciple View Post
    To some degree, sure, it could be.

    But ultimately, Kido is spells. Which, as D&D shows us, can be rather scientific, too. After all, with Kido, X chant, Y power supply, and Z hand gesture end up with AA Kido. Always.
    As D&D shows us, the chant X can be a prayer to power supply Y, who is a god and can screw you over if he's feeling petty, and the gesture Z is more about showing respect than anything. Or, since we're talking about Demon arts, you might really be calling to hell and bargaining your soul with forces of darkness. That's without taking into accord Sorcerers or other Cha casters, who bend the forces of nature with their willpower since they damn feel like it, no scientific understanding of anything required.

    Quote Originally Posted by KnightDisciple View Post
    But no, he doesn't get to label him a "heretic". Sorry, I'm going to be firm on that particular word.
    Why so serious? it's not aimed at you, it's aimed at your character, by organization with increasingly odd standards which you might care nothing about.

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    Default Re: BleachITP Reborn: Discussion & Setup Thread 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Draken View Post
    Not much issue with the promotion on the Corps since he transfered to 12th, where his views are much agreed upon by the captain if by no one else.

    And I think Kazuo will be damn proud of being called a Heretic.

    From merrian-webster's:

    2 : one who dissents from an accepted belief or doctrine : nonconformist.
    Yeah. Yoshi isn't very old anyways, and he was only in the KC 10 years.

    I actually addressed this in his history; he'd gotten a general "mystical" feel in the Academy, but got hit full-bore when he joined proper. He'd not realized the extent. As well, he tried to shrug it off at first and "blend in", but it never worked.

    Also, regarding the word "heretic", I could find it acceptable if it is stated as such: A majority of the Kido Corps, those with the heaviest connection to the mystical aspects, use the word "heretic" with themselves. The rest merely think of him as an "odd person" or something similar. Most of the rest of Soul Society doesn't care one way or the other.

    That way, you can call him a "heretic", but it at least kind of makes sense.

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    Default Re: BleachITP Reborn: Discussion & Setup Thread 7

    Quote Originally Posted by KnightDisciple View Post
    But no, he doesn't get to label him a "heretic". Sorry, I'm going to be firm on that particular word.
    "Heresy is a controversial or novel change to a system of beliefs, especially a religion, that conflicts with established dogma."

    Whether your guy is right or wrong, it sounds very much like he'd qualify as a heretic to me, if you make the assumption that the majority of Kido practitioners view it as mysticism.

    That becomes the question though: Does everyone see it as mysticism, or not?
    So far, I don't see any solid argument towards the latter. I can agree that many might see it as just a tool, yes... but that doesn't imply that they see it scientifically, as opposed to mystically. It just says that they give it less reverence, and use it as they wish. Regarding it as science would still be a radical view.

    That said, while I believe mysticism seems more likely, I don't see a strong push in that direction either, though I don't really see anything against it.


    In the whole, I believe this is only an issue because it is being made into one. The character is described as being a controversial element, and Innis is pushing that he would be a heretic due to heavy mystical tones to Kido.
    Both of these, I think, are making assumptions that perhaps should not be made, at least not so strongly (if people are going to get so riled up over it, at least).
    Last edited by AmberVael; 2010-05-27 at 10:59 AM.

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    Default Re: BleachITP Reborn: Discussion & Setup Thread 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet View Post
    As D&D shows us, the chant X can be a prayer to power supply Y, who is a god and can screw you over if he's feeling petty, and the gesture Z is more about showing respect than anything. Or, since we're talking about Demon arts, you might really be calling to hell and bargaining your soul with forces of darkness. That's without taking into accord Sorcerers or other Cha casters, who bend the forces of nature with their willpower since they damn feel like it, no scientific understanding of anything required.
    Ah, but clerics' powers continue to work unless they go outside alignment restrictions. Or they can be clerics of vague concepts.

    And in my mind, Sorcerers (and other Cha casters) are self-consistent. That is, due to the way spells in D&D work, a Sorcerer who wants X affect always uses Y method, even though Y method is unique to them.

    And I'd point to canon; they're called "demon arts", but never once is there talk of demons actually having anything to do with it.

    So suddenly saying the actual mechanics aren't what they were before is...disingenuous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet View Post
    Why so serious? it's not aimed at you, it's aimed at your character, by organization with increasingly odd standards which you might care nothing about.
    1.)I'm somewhat attached to my characters. 2.)I'm not a big fan of that word getting thrown around at any time, reserving it for serious situations that fully merit its use. 3.)This is a game, and I'd really rather not have to start dealing with concepts of heresy. 4.)His statement felt absolute, which I don't appreciate.

    I already revised myself as to how I'd feel comfortable seeing its use.

    As for non-mystical views of kido?

    I didn't want to drag him into this, but Masaru's view would be pretty close to Yoshi's. He's rather skilled with Kido, but doesn't view it as anything more than a skill/tool. No mystical strings attached. He wouldn't stomp out more mystical views in his Division, mind. Just try to discourage people getting too wrapped up in such thoughts.

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    Default Re: BleachITP Reborn: Discussion & Setup Thread 7

    Quote Originally Posted by KnightDisciple View Post
    And I'd point to canon; they're called "demon arts", but never once is there talk of demons actually having anything to do with it.
    .
    Never wondered what exactly what that "Black Dog of Rondanini" (sp?) was? Or any other of the oddly poetic or mystical elements of the Kido chants? It isn't explicitly stated, but the nature of the setting and the chants themselves give strong reason to suspect connection. There's a real Hell around, after all. It always puts fantastic dragons in new light when there are real dragons running around.

    And to beat the horse a bit more, even though Clerics and, say, Psions have consistent powers, they still acquire those powers through meditation and prayer, and other mystical practices. So while the powers can be examined in scientific ways, it's clear attaining them requires subscription to spiritual practices and faith in supernatural.

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    Default Re: BleachITP Reborn: Discussion & Setup Thread 7

    "I will bolt a steering wheel to my balls before I believe that pumping your brain full of booze and narcotics can make you better at anything other than embarassing yourself."

    ---

    And psions don't really need anything. Clerics do, but the deity only provides a channel for power. Deities and Demigods explicitly states that the cleric's training is what allows the casting of spells (it is why Gods themselves can't cast divine spells unless they have levels in divine spellcasting classes).

    This, however, does not apply, because the energy to fuel kido comes from one's own reiryoku. Not from an external source like divine magic.
    Last edited by Draken; 2010-05-27 at 11:20 AM.
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    Default Re: BleachITP Reborn: Discussion & Setup Thread 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet View Post
    Never wondered what exactly what that "Black Dog of Rondanini" (sp?) was? Or any other of the oddly poetic or mystical elements of the Kido chants? It isn't explicitly stated, but the nature of the setting and the chants themselves give strong reason to suspect connection. There's a real Hell around, after all. It always puts fantastic dragons in new light when there are real dragons running around.

    And to beat the horse a bit more, even though Clerics and, say, Psions have consistent powers, they still acquire those powers through meditation and prayer, and other mystical practices. So while the powers can be examined in scientific ways, it's clear attaining them requires subscription to spiritual practices and faith in supernatural.
    Wait. Psions don't need spirituality. They just have to sit and focus themselves.

    I can accept that, for some Kido users, mysticism aids them.

    But I'd rather we not require that any user of Kido be required to pray for spells or something. Or that my character be viewed as a heretic by anything more than a majority/core of the Kido Corps.

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Draken View Post
    "I will bolt a steering wheel to my balls before I believe that pumping your brain full of booze and narcotics can make you better at anything other than embarassing yourself."
    "I've yet to find any trouble casting or researching Kido while completely sober."
    Last edited by KnightDisciple; 2010-05-27 at 11:21 AM.

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    Default Re: BleachITP Reborn: Discussion & Setup Thread 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Draken View Post
    "I will bolt a steering wheel to my balls before I believe that pumping your brain full of booze and narcotics can make you better at anything other than embarassing yourself."
    "I'm with you, pal. Also, that so-called commander of theirs needs a spankin'. Who gave booze to the toddler anyway?"

    Quote Originally Posted by KnightDisciple View Post
    Wait. Psions don't need spirituality. They just have to sit and focus themselves.
    You'd find it hard to convince me that people who can warp the laws of nature by meditating or reach outside their bodies to the realm of Gods and Ghosts with their mind don't subscribe to spirituality.
    Last edited by Frozen_Feet; 2010-05-27 at 11:26 AM.

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    Default Re: BleachITP Reborn: Discussion & Setup Thread 7

    Well, I have a little bit of time to post before I'm off to graduation (augh, I'm the valedictorian!!!). I thought during class today and decided that Katarina's animal/hollow-ish/whatever it's called () should still be mythical and otherworldly, so I came up with....a unicorn! She would be stubborn, free-spirited, passionate, everything associated with that. I'm pretty sure there's no unicorn arrancar, so I'll start working on her new release.
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    Quote Originally Posted by InyutheBeatIs View Post
    ...Oh beautiful and stylish woman, Moon Wolf. Please, take these internet flowers as a token of my love, and an appeasement so that I may not have to endure your wrath.
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    Default Re: BleachITP Reborn: Discussion & Setup Thread 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Wolf View Post
    Well, I have a little bit of time to post before I'm off to graduation (augh, I'm the valedictorian!!!). I thought during class today and decided that Katarina's animal/hollow-ish/whatever it's called () should still be mythical and otherworldly, so I came up with....a unicorn! She would be stubborn, free-spirited, passionate, everything associated with that. I'm pretty sure there's no unicorn arrancar, so I'll start working on her new release.
    Unicorns, eh?

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    Default Re: BleachITP Reborn: Discussion & Setup Thread 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet View Post
    You'd find it hard to convince me that people who can warp the laws of nature by meditating or reach outside their bodies to the realm of Gods and Ghosts with their mind don't subscribe to spirituality.
    Really?
    They're meditating to calm and order their minds. This allows them to organize their unique internal energies, which are themselves naturally tapping the Astral plane (or something, I don't know). They're manipulating energy the same way Magneto manipulates magnetism, or any telekinetic moves stuff with his brain. Transfer and application of energy. Nothing more, nothing less.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Wolf View Post
    Well, I have a little bit of time to post before I'm off to graduation (augh, I'm the valedictorian!!!). I thought during class today and decided that Katarina's animal/hollow-ish/whatever it's called () should still be mythical and otherworldly, so I came up with....a unicorn! She would be stubborn, free-spirited, passionate, everything associated with that. I'm pretty sure there's no unicorn arrancar, so I'll start working on her new release.
    Moon Wolf....I have to repeat our earlier questions. If she's so utterly "nice", why is she with murdering monsters like, well, all the rest of the Arrancar?

    I mean, unless you notably change her demeanor, she'd fit in more with Soul Society than Las Noches.

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    Default Re: BleachITP Reborn: Discussion & Setup Thread 7

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Wolf View Post
    Well, I have a little bit of time to post before I'm off to graduation (augh, I'm the valedictorian!!!). I thought during class today and decided that Katarina's animal/hollow-ish/whatever it's called () should still be mythical and otherworldly, so I came up with....a unicorn! She would be stubborn, free-spirited, passionate, everything associated with that. I'm pretty sure there's no unicorn arrancar, so I'll start working on her new release.
    Why not a narwhal? Maybe she tells people it's a unicorn.
    Last edited by Prime32; 2010-05-27 at 11:32 AM.
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    Default Re: BleachITP Reborn: Discussion & Setup Thread 7

    And psions don't really need anything. Clerics do, but the deity only provides a channel for power. Deities and Demigods explicitly states that the cleric's training is what allows the casting of spells (it is why Gods themselves can't cast divine spells unless they have levels in divine spellcasting classes).

    This, however, does not apply, because the energy to fuel kido comes from one's own reiryoku. Not from an external source like divine magic.
    Reposting for anyone who might have missed it.
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    Default Re: BleachITP Reborn: Discussion & Setup Thread 7

    Quote Originally Posted by KnightDisciple View Post
    Moon Wolf....I have to repeat our earlier questions. If she's so utterly "nice", why is she with murdering monsters like, well, all the rest of the Arrancar?

    I mean, unless you notably change her demeanor, she'd fit in more with Soul Society than Las Noches.
    Getting to that, I knew I forgot something. If she was a unicorn, then I'd probably change her to be really caring and kind towards her master, but shy and perhaps even agressive towards others. I mean, that's what my horse is like, so that's where I'm getting this from...
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    Quote Originally Posted by InyutheBeatIs View Post
    ...Oh beautiful and stylish woman, Moon Wolf. Please, take these internet flowers as a token of my love, and an appeasement so that I may not have to endure your wrath.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime32 View Post
    Gah! Onmitsukido'd!

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    Default Re: BleachITP Reborn: Discussion & Setup Thread 7

    @Moon Wolf, I actually have to say that it could look pretty awesome. But I have to echoe everbody elses' concern in that she seems too nicey-nicey to want to be hanging out with basically a bunch of cannibals and murderers (no offense).

    In other news, I will do my best to get a first draft of a character sheet posted today. School has been whooping me in more ways than one.

    Edit: I GOT NINJA'D!!!
    Last edited by InyutheBeatIs; 2010-05-27 at 11:52 AM.

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    Default Re: BleachITP Reborn: Discussion & Setup Thread 7

    Aw, thanks!

    Can't wait to see your character! (But since Katarina's personality is based on my horse's....she'd probably kick your character... )
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    Quote Originally Posted by InyutheBeatIs View Post
    ...Oh beautiful and stylish woman, Moon Wolf. Please, take these internet flowers as a token of my love, and an appeasement so that I may not have to endure your wrath.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime32 View Post
    Gah! Onmitsukido'd!

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    Default Re: BleachITP Reborn: Discussion & Setup Thread 7

    No problem! And yeah, it would be interesting to see what would happen between the two characters should she decide to kick him.

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    Default Re: BleachITP Reborn: Discussion & Setup Thread 7

    One more rant about the Kido stuff:
    Quote Originally Posted by KnightDisciple View Post
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    Really?
    They're meditating to calm and order their minds. This allows them to organize their unique internal energies, which are themselves naturally tapping the Astral plane (or something, I don't know). They're manipulating energy the same way Magneto manipulates magnetism, or any telekinetic moves stuff with his brain. Transfer and application of energy. Nothing more, nothing less.
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    Astral plane is literally where bodies of dead gods slumber, where spirits haunt and where your mind makes it real. For a sufficiently advanced psion, his brain isn't even needed to warp reality, and neither is the rest of his body; it's literally his disembodied spirit doing most of the work. ("Organizing internal energies" or "Transfer and application of energy, nothing more, nothing less" can fit within or be the basis for a spiritual belief system, so they don't really work as counter-arguments.)

    Remember the setting: there are "real dragons" around, and a psion is automatically one of those in the know. I have a very hard time imagining a character with Knowledge (psionics) past level one who doesn't acknowledge the spiritual ramifications of that knowledge to his or her worldview.

    Now, if the default setting is changed to something where the basics are different, then you have a point. But that's not the case in Bleach, is it? It is about spirits of the dead. Most Shinigami probably have seen gates of Hell at some point, depends on how optimistic you want to be. When there are real demons around... why would they call something "Demon arts" for fun?

    @Draken:
    I noticed your post allright. Whatever point you tried to make flew past me, as whatever training allows a Cleric to cast spells unquestionably has mystical and spiritual aspects. It has to with gods and supernatural after all.

    It might not apply to Kido in the same way, but even then, a Shinigami is a spirit using spiritual energies to affect the world of spirits. To say there aren't spiritual elements in play is a misnomer.


    tl;dr : the setting itself is spiritual, and taking the stance that something directly relating to afterlife and psychopomps is not is really funny to me.

    As we might be working with different benchmarks and definitions and this all is spiralling far OOT anyway, discussing the issue further isn't really fruitfull or necessary.
    Last edited by Frozen_Feet; 2010-05-27 at 12:16 PM.

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    Default Re: BleachITP Reborn: Discussion & Setup Thread 7

    My point is just that I really see Kido as more of arcane magic than divine magic.

    But then again, I have no problems with the religious view on kido practice of the new corps. But I would really prefer if it is not the only way it works.
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    Default Re: BleachITP Reborn: Discussion & Setup Thread 7

    The thing is, we're using the word "spiritual", but I think we're applying two different meanings.

    You're using "spiritual", and applying mystical/religious overtones.

    Draken and I are using "spiritual" as a literal thing. They're "spirits". As has been slammed over our heads by some, this isn't an "afterlife", it's just "another life".

    Shinigami are, when you get down to it, basically metahumans. They're born with innate powers that they have to train to master. As well, they each have a unique power in the form of their zanpakutou. These aren't mystical things. They're simple facts, the way of life for these people.

    What if it was labeled "elemental energy"? If the name was the only thing changed, would it radically change everything about Kido? Or would it show that "spiritual energy" is just a label for an internal well of power. One that is accessed through intentional personal training. If mysticism, prayer, and so on help someone train, that's fine. But it's not required.

    Webster definition of spiritual. You seem to be interpreting it as 2 and 3, whereas Draken and I are more going with 1 and 5. In my mind, the context of Bleach makes "spiritual" just a label of the type of being using it, a "spirit". A mostly non-corporeal being existing in a state separate from the view of most mortal beings born on the physical earth.

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Draken View Post
    My point is just that I really see Kido as more of arcane magic than divine magic.

    But then again, I have no problems with the religious view on kido practice of the new corps. But I would really prefer if it is not the only way it works.
    This, right here. My point is that people can make it into a pseudo-religious practice. But requiring that it be such is something I disagree with.
    Last edited by KnightDisciple; 2010-05-27 at 12:23 PM.

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    Default Re: BleachITP Reborn: Discussion & Setup Thread 7

    ...I don't really give a hoot either way, but, uh, no one person should be able to declare how a universal tool for Shinigami is universally viewed or used.
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