BleachITP Reborn: Discussion & Setup Thread 7

[Frozen_Feet]

Webster definition of spiritual. You seem to be interpreting it as 2 and 3, whereas Draken and I are more going with 1 and 5. In my mind, the context of Bleach makes "spiritual" just a label of the type of being using it, a "spirit". A mostly non-corporeal being existing in a state separate from the view of most mortal beings born on the physical earth.

It's more that I think you can't have 1 and 5 without 2 and 3, but that's another matter entirely. In any case, I agree with you that there should be other ways of, or traditions exploring Kido. Besides that, I have little else to say.

[tgva8889]

I think how a person views kido, just like how a person views other unproven topics, should be up to them. Maybe some people view it as some kind of religious thing and consider it "heresy" to talk of it in the scientific. Maybe some people consider it a science and disregard the mystical connotations of the spells. Maybe some people don't give a hoot and see it as another ability in their Shinigami arsenal. But that's up to each individual person.

What is the problem with an Arrancar being kind? Why is it wrong to say a kind person would hang out with generally unkind people? Maybe they want her there so they can destroy her light later. Maybe she thinks she can change them. Maybe she's there because she likes the color of the flooring and no one has been able to convince her to leave. Why is it so important that her temperament "fit" a Fraccion (whatever that's supposed to mean)?

[Innis Cabal]

Wow....fine. What the hell ever. I'm not even going to bother to really tackle this. I didn't mean this as an attack on you KD, once again your taking things way the hell out of proportion. No one's allowed to ask questions about your character. So I'm not going to do it again, since all it does is make an argument, and I'm sick of it. So, just going to address the question as to why I should get a say in the way Kido operates in Soul Society.

Because it directly impacts the Division I'm working on. Why the hell do you get to decide how your Division runs? Because its the Division your working on. No one is comming in and telling people that just because Division X works the way its written that you can play it differently because you don't care for the flavor, or that you shouldn't get to run the Division because its a wide set in Soul Society, and no one should get to decide that for themselves.

Yes, its a broader tool, but its the only thing the Kido Corp works on. Why -shouldn't- their theories and ideals be the core foundation of how Soul Society views and works with Kido. They've existed for as long as the Gotei (or slightly less long), but their theories and views on Kido are just one of a multitude that seems to exist in Soul Society? Who the hell is make the other theories and methods to use Kido? Because if there are other groups doing it on a level it can compete with the Kido Corp (and its not them) why bother having a Corp at all.


Not -ONLY- that, but not bloody once did I say "This is how Kido works". I said "As far as Soul Society is concerned". I didn't say if it was correct or incorrect. Thats what the Kido Corp believes. Thats what their going to teach people. Thats what their going to teach -other- people to teach. So again I ask, why the hell should they not get a say on how Kido is viewed considering their the ones dishing out the information?

I also didn't say your character was -WRONG- in his views on how Kido works. I said that the Kido Corp thought he was incorrect. You may be attatched to your character, but it just dosn't make sense someone like him would actively just go into a Division with a great deal of knowledge that everything he believes is looked down on.

[Draken]

Looks to me like there is nothing else that needs discussing. Kido Corps teaches one way, 12th division thinks they are all drugged loons, rest of Soul Society doesn't care.

[Innis Cabal]

Why bother making the fluff at all then? If its all frankly going to be ignored, I could very well have written that kido comes from surly teenaged penguins and it would generate the same effect as taking the time to try and make kido interesting and unique in our setting other then the bland set up it has in canon.

[Frozen_Feet]

As I said, I personally like what you've done with the Corps, Innis. Some characters might belittle or ignore their teachings, or not buy the whole thing, but that doesn't invalidate your work. Kido isn't a major focus for all characters. I know I'll be incorporating some of your ideas to Hachirou and Sayuri.

All I ask is not to drag the issue down in flames. Petty infighting does not make things better.

[tgva8889]

I'm fine with Kido Corp being the main entity for teaching and having a specific method of teaching Kido. At the same time, however, there should be other views, just like there alternative views on other things. Alternative views exist on most subjects that aren't concrete, so they should exist for Kido, which is not concrete. What the "dominant" opinion is really depends on what characters show up and decide to talk about it.

Basically, I don't think any particular division should be able to decide how others think, just like I don't think any character should. If you suggest that Kido Corp teaches it in this manner, then they teach it in that manner. But just because someone is taught something doesn't mean they have to agree with it.

I also have no problem with the term "heretic." I think, KD, that you are taking the distinction too seriously.

[Draken]

I am just saying that it is not something that actually influences the day to day life of most people.

That is true for everything, really. The spin you gave to it is interesting, but it is hardly something players out of the kido corps intend to use, I believe.

And indeed. What tgva said applies too.

[Innis Cabal]

As I said, I personally like what you've done with the Corps, Innis. Some characters might belittle or ignore their teachings, or not buy the whole thing, but that doesn't invalidate your work. Kido isn't a major focus for all characters. I know I'll be incorporating some of your ideas to Hachirou and Sayuri.

All I ask is not to drag the issue down in flames. Petty infighting does not make things better.

Well, thank you. But I really feel this is a valid concern here. I'm not sure why such venom was lofted about, maybe it was the word heretic. But I'm not really sure if another word carries the same level here.

The problem is, everyone else is quick to step up and demand their Division dosn't become invalidated, made to look incompetent or otherwise suffer any negative light due to personal incompetence.

As it stands, the Kido Corp (if everyone gets a say on how their characters view kido) come out looking like incompetent (they can't even bloody keep members from going to another branch of the military), backwards (The 12th teachs their own view on Kido, and its more in line with the modernized Soul Society) loons.

But its all the Kido Corp does. They are were new Kido is made, they are the place where old kido is studied and kept archived. Their the ones who work with Kido first and foremost. Should a Division of the Gotei 13 really be able to step all over their stuff and invalidate them like that? Should any Division be able to do that? As I said above, if its the case...then there's no need what so ever for the Kido Corp if the Gotei 13 handles it all on their own.

The Kido Corp is the group that goes into the Acadamy and teachs Kido. Their the ones most suited to do so. They teach other Shinigami how to teach Kido. Because its all that concerns them. That means their idea's are the main bulk of whats getting out to the populace. Are you telling me the 12th can come in and teach a class that runs counter to the Kido Corp?

Everyone else asks players who play in their Division to follow the fluff of said Division. Why is it different when it comes to the Kido Corp? Why is it the only one people can willingly choose to ignore the fluff written simply because it dosn't suit their character when everyone else is asked to write their character with the flavor of a Division in mind?

If Kido is literaly left to the whim of every last person, there really is no reason for me to have spent as long as I did on the write up. There was no reason really for my write up at all outside of its general duties of "Well, they're one group that works on Kido." and how its set up.

There's also no reason for Takeshi, as the majority of what I wanted to explore with him will literaly not matter. There's no impact on Soul Society if he somehow comes to some great revelation about Kido. Its just a personal opinion, its no longer a revelation or earth shattering, its just one persons interpertation.

Edit:@TGVA- I haven't once said there can't be other views. There surely would be. But why is the Kido Corp's just "One of the multitude" when their the ones with their foot forward, and teaching said theories longer and louder?

[strawberryman]

Basically, I don't think any particular division should be able to decide how others think, just like I don't think any character should. If you suggest that Kido Corp teaches it in this manner, then they teach it in that manner. But just because someone is taught something doesn't mean they have to agree with it.

This. Again.

[Innis Cabal]

This. Again.

I'm not saying its the only view. I'm not even saying it should be the only view. Or that said view is even correct. I'm saying, why shouldn't the Kido Corps view not be the most widely believed? After all, their the leading experts on it.

I haven't told anyone how their character should think, and I'm starting to really get annoyed at people assuming I am. I've not invalidated anyone's opinion on the matter, and I won't. All I'm asking is that people at the very least look what I've written, and keep it in mind. I don't think thats all that much to ask for is it?

My question was. Why would someone with views so wholey and fully against the literal centuries long foundation of an entire organization willingly enter into it. Thats my question. Nothing more. Nothing less. He just dosn't seem to fit into the Kido Corp. Other leaders of Divisions have been allowed to say the very same thing to people and have it stick. So I want to know -why- he went to the Kido Corp all things taken into consideration.

[KnightDisciple]

I think I'll make some things clear for the general populace.

I'd also not intended for my character to be teaching Kido at any time. He's not a teacher. He's a researcher of Kido, inventor of Kido-related devices, and user of Kido. A "wizard", if you will.

I had created Yoshi before there was a writeup for the Kido Corps. At that time, I didn't think a wizardly approach to Kido would be so radically different to the general Kido Corps outlook.

I didn't feel like notably changing my character, but he didn't seem a good fit. So I worked that into my character. We know it's possible to change divisions by request; Renji went from 11th to 6th on his own initiative, I believe.

Is it so hard to believe that, every once in a while, someone will come along and question a standing belief on something he's heavily invested in? And that he would choose to remove himself from a potential conflict situation because of this different viewpoint?

Because that's the OOC reason I did it. I didn't want to perpetuate any sort of "clash" with other members of the Kido Corps. So I made Yoshi a bit of an "odd man out" and had him move to the SCIENCE! Division. To go with his more scientific outlook on Kido.

I never intended for it to be any more involved than that.

I objected to "heretic" because I had the impression the entire Gotei 13 were supposed to view him as one, barring a few. Something I don't agree with. If the Kido Corps views him as such, fine.

My original goal was just to have a wizard-like Kido caster, and find him a place to fit in. Complications arose, but I thought I set them aside via both OOC and IC decisions. I'm sorry it's caused turmoil, but I'm not changing my character now, out of the blue.

Edit: Regarding Yoshi entering at all.

Maybe he didn't believe it would be as pervasive as he thought. Maybe he thought his unique viewpoint would be incorporated into the greater whole (but instead was simply rejected). Maybe his viewpoint shifted to an even less mystical outlook over those 10 short years. I could reduce it to 5, I suppose. But I have him having been there at all because he is, ultimately, a Kido caster. He's just different in outlook. I'm specifically having him leave the division after a brief time (for Shinigami) because of this dissonance.

Again, he was created, with his particular outlook and method, before the super-mystical Kido Corps writeup was made.

[Draken]

They don't pass off as incompetents. You are incompetent if you can't do your job.

Their job is to catalogue, teach and develop. Their archives are up to date? Then they are doing it, they are competent. People learn to shoot fire out of their hands? Their teaching works, they are competent. They make new kidos? Their do, so yes it does, they are competent.

But (at least) one division, which is meant to be diametrically opposed to the path you went, disagrees with the views of the Corps. The other divisions don't have much concerns with that regard, and people shift squads frequently, I have no idea why so many PCs chose to leave the Kido Corps specifically, maybe some of them were not competent with kido or found better opportunities elsewhere in the military of the Seireitei.

Either way, I see no incompetence.

[Innis Cabal]

Again, he was created, with his particular outlook and method, before the super-mystical Kido Corps writeup was made.

So...my write up dosn't matter. Is that what your saying here KD? That since your guy came first, you shouldn't have to change your character? Even though we've asked, and in some cases dragged out an issue for two whole OOC threads, simply because you don't want to change your character?

I get it.

[Draken]

... That completely ignores the rest of Knight's post and takes the line utterly out of context Innis. It really does not need to be individually adressed in such a way.

[KnightDisciple]

So...my write up dosn't matter. Is that what your saying here KD? That since your guy came first, you shouldn't have to change your character? Even though we've asked, and in some cases dragged out an issue for two whole OOC threads, simply because you don't want to change your character?

I get it.

I'm saying that a.)I don't want to notably change the basic personality and worldview of my character, b.)I'm trying to find an IC solution to help us explain the OOC reason for him leaving, and c.)at no point have I said you need to change the Kido Corps. At all.

I've acknowledge the difference. I've stated in character reasoning for the whole situation.

Is this not good enough?

[Innis Cabal]

... That completely ignores the rest of Knight's post and takes the line utterly out of context Innis. It really does not need to be individually adressed in such a way.

I apologize, I am rather heated. I will go and address his entire post.

[tgva8889]

Logically, that view should be the most dominant. However, since you do not control a dominant portion of Soul Society, only 1/14th, I don't think that such a sweeping statement can be made accurate by you. That said, I agree that in general, people should consider that Kido Corp. is the group that teaches people about Kido and that they teach that Kido functions in Way X. But they don't have to agree.

[Innis Cabal]

I think I'll make some things clear for the general populace.

I'd also not intended for my character to be teaching Kido at any time. He's not a teacher. He's a researcher of Kido, inventor of Kido-related devices, and user of Kido. A "wizard", if you will.

I had created Yoshi before there was a writeup for the Kido Corps. At that time, I didn't think a wizardly approach to Kido would be so radically different to the general Kido Corps outlook.

I didn't feel like notably changing my character, but he didn't seem a good fit. So I worked that into my character. We know it's possible to change divisions by request; Renji went from 11th to 6th on his own initiative, I believe.

Is it so hard to believe that, every once in a while, someone will come along and question a standing belief on something he's heavily invested in? And that he would choose to remove himself from a potential conflict situation because of this different viewpoint?

Because that's the OOC reason I did it. I didn't want to perpetuate any sort of "clash" with other members of the Kido Corps. So I made Yoshi a bit of an "odd man out" and had him move to the SCIENCE! Division. To go with his more scientific outlook on Kido.

I never intended for it to be any more involved than that.

I objected to "heretic" because I had the impression the entire Gotei 13 were supposed to view him as one, barring a few. Something I don't agree with. If the Kido Corps views him as such, fine.

My original goal was just to have a wizard-like Kido caster, and find him a place to fit in. Complications arose, but I thought I set them aside via both OOC and IC decisions. I'm sorry it's caused turmoil, but I'm not changing my character now, out of the blue.

Edit: Regarding Yoshi entering at all.

Maybe he didn't believe it would be as pervasive as he thought. Maybe he thought his unique viewpoint would be incorporated into the greater whole (but instead was simply rejected). Maybe his viewpoint shifted to an even less mystical outlook over those 10 short years. I could reduce it to 5, I suppose. But I have him having been there at all because he is, ultimately, a Kido caster. He's just different in outlook. I'm specifically having him leave the division after a brief time (for Shinigami) because of this dissonance.

Again, he was created, with his particular outlook and method, before the super-mystical Kido Corps writeup was made.

1. Thats fine. The fluff of the character isn't really in question here. Nor should it be.

2. No one is asking you to change your character, other then over the Kido Corp thing. No fluff is being asked to be changed. But it shouldn't matter if your character came before, or after the write up. You knew that all Divisions were subject to change when the vote went through. Your character is great as written. I like Yoshi as a character. But ask yourself. Does he fit into the Kido Corp?

3. You answered yourself here. He dosn't seem a good fit. I agree with that. Thats what I'm trying to get at. He isn't a good fit, he's a much better fit with the 12th. Why not just start him there when he clearly dosn't belong in the Kido Corp.

4. Its not hard to believe. Again, can someone point out to me where I said there is only one way Kido is viewed? Because I don't recall saying it. I recall saying the wide view on Kido is what the Kido Corp teachs. Does anyone disagree thats how it should be?

5. Again, he does seem to fit better with the 12th. Why just not start him there? Does it change him all that much from what you've written? We've asked other people to change Divisions if they don't synch well with them. Why is this different.

6. I never said the Gotei sees him as a heretic. I actually came out right and said that the Kido Corp sees him that way. You either misunderstood or didn't read it carefully. The quote in question.

As it stands Hirako Yoshi isn't just a "Fringe" within the Kido Corp, but the entire Soul Society. Kido works (at least as far as the wide majority of Soul Society is concerned) as its written in the Kido Corp write up. He'd be more then fringe in the Corp itself, he'd be a heritic for proposing the centuries long time tested concepts where in fact needless, and that kido was a science. Would they be militant in their feelings towards him? Certainly not. But with such beliefs, he would be one in probably none in an entire division of 300 people.

It even says that he's not alone in his counter thinking against the Kido Corp. That quote there says exactly what I mean. The Kido Corp believes one way. Its not the only way. But its the majority's way, because its what they've been taught since day 1 of their training.

7. You've done well with a wizardly type kido user. And you've found a nice fit in the 12th Division. Third time here now, why does he have to dip into the Kido Corp between School and After other then because you want him to.

8. Tons of Kido Casters don't end up in the Kido Division. And I'm willing to bet its because the Kido Corp takes a certain sort of person. Thats why they number less then some Divisions. The whole of the Kido Corp is smaller then more then a few Divisions.

9. Again, why does it matter when he was made KD? The Kido Corp is how it is. Takeshi and the Corp got voted in fair and square. Everyone else has changed their character to fit, why are you resisting so much when you'd expect someone else to do this if you were not in their place.

[tgva8889]

Innis, am I wrong in saying that you're asking KD "Why should Kido Corp. have approved of Yoshi joining"? Or is that basically the question?

[KnightDisciple]

Screw it. I'll just make him a 12ther right from the start. This bickering isn't worth what I fundamentally see as a non-issue.

So long as you promise not to be mad if he invents a couple Kido here and there, or a few kido-related devices, along the way.

[Innis Cabal]

Logically, that view should be the most dominant. However, since you do not control a dominant portion of Soul Society, only 1/14th, I don't think that such a sweeping statement can be made accurate by you. That said, I agree that in general, people should consider that Kido Corp. is the group that teaches people about Kido and that they teach that Kido functions in Way X. But they don't have to agree.

That is all I am asking. The above was never part of the problem. Not even sure how it -became- the problem. I don't care if people view Kido differently. Thats not my place to dictate, nor have I once -TRIED- to dictate it.

All I asked was for people to keep the Kido Corp in mind, and it somehow got misconstrued along the way.

So long as you promise not to be mad if he invents a couple Kido here and there, or a few kido-related devices, along the way.

Why would I be mad? Other people have done it already. Can someone PLEASE! tell me where this idea and attitude is comming from that I want to be the grand despot of all Kido? Because I'm at my wits end with this.

Innis, am I wrong in saying that you're asking KD "Why should Kido Corp. have approved of Yoshi joining"? Or is that basically the question?

Thats the basic question. I figured though, being so blunt would cause an argument. The irony is staggering. But I get hammered for not being exact enough, and I get hammered when I am. I really can't seem to win when it comes to this.

[KnightDisciple]

Yoshi's backstory has been modified.

Draken, let me know if the number of internship years are about right.

[Innis Cabal]

That becomes the question though: Does everyone see it as mysticism, or not?
So far, I don't see any solid argument towards the latter. I can agree that many might see it as just a tool, yes... but that doesn't imply that they see it scientifically, as opposed to mystically. It just says that they give it less reverence, and use it as they wish. Regarding it as science would still be a radical view.

I'm very sorry I missed this particular question in the hustle.

I doubt the vast majority of Kido User's really give 2 cents about the mystic and more spiritual side of Kido. I also doubt that the Kido Corp is real head strong in pounding those elements into most users unless they really focus on it. But the higher classes would indeed focus on that side of Kido. Because its deeply entrenched in said set up and pomp.

Is the psuedo-religious bent the Kido Corp takes a dominant theory in the Gotei? Probably not, because really, who gives 2 cents in battle about the Perfect Kido. Its a weapon, when its boiled down to its base. But Kido is tied to ritual and pomp all the same. You can go through the motions, say the chants, even understand the way kido works as presented as a balance between the energy around you, and the energy in you without having to care one wit about how it makes you a better person though said balance at the end of the day.

[Tackyhillbillu]

Ummm, Innis, I'm going to say your wrong. The 4th is just as involved with Kido as the Kido Corp, and I'm going to say that don't view it religously at all. At least with regards to Healing Kido, which the 4th are the undisputed experts on, it isn't viewed in a semi mystical fashion. Healing Kido is a tool, not a religous art. And getting drunk very rarely helps you do better at it, despite Ude's normally inebriated state.

---

So, there is at least one resevoir of knowledge on Kido that does not involve itself in the rituals, nor even learn it in that fashion.

[Frozen_Feet]

So, there is at least one resevoir of knowledge on Kido that does not involve itself in the rituals, nor even learn it in that fashion.

A more interesting question is: was it always so? Looking at history, 4th could've been more religious organization to a point, and then taken a more secular turn due to change in leadership or priorities. Just food for thought.

[Innis Cabal]

Ya know...what ever. The Kido Corp isn't even the best at their sole function. I'll go and rework the Kido Corp so as not to conflict with the majority of the player base.

[KnightDisciple]

Ya know...what ever. The Kido Corp isn't even the best at their sole function. I'll go and rework the Kido Corp so as not to conflict with the majority of the player base.

When did the Kido Corps become not the Best at "blowing **** up with kido" and "binding **** up with Kido"?

[Frozen_Feet]

Yeah. They're still the authority on Bakudo and Hado, and have much broader base for general Kido theory. 4th may have them beaten on one area, but I don't think you need to change it all because of that.

[Tackyhillbillu]

Yeah. They're still the authority on Bakudo and Hado, and have much broader base for general Kido theory. 4th may have them beaten on one area, but I don't think you need to change it all because of that.

Yeah, and I'm really not going to back down on the 4th being the undisputed masters of Healing Kido. I wouldn't mind if the KC learned it, and even taught it in the fashion you are talking about. But that is the 4th's flagship function. If they are beat at it, it doesn't make any sense for them to exist.