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    Default [3.5] Natural weapons and full attacks

    I'm confused about how natural and manufactured weapons intereact when you make a full attack.

    - If you have multiple natural weapons you can attack with all of them, the primary at your full BAB and the secondaries at -5. Correct?

    - If you full attack with a manufactured weapon each attack after the first takes a -5 penalty and the number you get is determined by your BAB. Correct?

    So what if you're a dragon holding a sword? Do you choose either to use all your natural weapons, or use the sword? Can the sword replace 1 natural weapon at a -5 penalty? Do you use all your natural wepons, and then make a full attack with the sword too?!

    And what if you're a warforged with a natural slam? Does that give you a free slam attack when full attacking?

    And what if you have fewer natural weapons than you get attacks from your BAB? Can you make iterative attacks with one of them?

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    Default Re: [3.5] Natural weapons and full attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Myou View Post
    - If you have multiple natural weapons you can attack with all of them, the primary at your full BAB and the secondaries at -5. Correct?
    Unless you have the Multiattack Feat, in which case the secondaries are at -2
    Quote Originally Posted by Myou View Post
    - If you full attack with a manufactured weapon each attack after the first takes a -5 penalty and the number you get is determined by your BAB. Correct?
    Yes, except for TWF, Haste etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Myou View Post
    So what if you're a dragon holding a sword? Do you choose either to use all your natural weapons, or use the sword? Can the sword replace 1 natural weapon at a -5 penalty? Do you use all your natural wepons, and then make a full attack with the sword too?!
    Either
    - Full attack with Naturals
    - Full attack with Weapons, and one secondary natural
    Quote Originally Posted by Myou View Post
    And what if you're a warforged with a natural slam? Does that give you a free slam attack when full attacking?
    Full attack with Weapons, and one secondary natural
    Quote Originally Posted by Myou View Post
    And what if you have fewer natural weapons than you get attacks from your BAB? Can you make iterative attacks with one of them?
    No

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    Default Re: [3.5] Natural weapons and full attacks

    This has always bugged me too. Could you perhaps post sources for your answers?

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    Default Re: [3.5] Natural weapons and full attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by nedz View Post
    Either
    - Full attack with Naturals
    - Full attack with Weapons, and one secondary natural
    You actually get full attack with the Weapon, and then can use all your "free" naturals (ie. not claws when you've attacked with two-hander) as secondaries.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Natural weapons and full attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by nedz View Post
    Unless you have the Multiattack Feat, in which case the secondaries are at -2
    Yes, but I'm trying not to cloud the issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by nedz View Post
    Yes, except for TWF, Haste etc.
    What happens when you use TWFing then? And which weapon does Haste give the extra attack to?

    Quote Originally Posted by nedz View Post
    Either
    - Full attack with Naturals
    - Full attack with Weapons, and one secondary natural

    Full attack with Weapons, and one secondary natural
    You're saying warforged and all other creatures with natural weapons actually get a free extra attack on a full attack?

    Quote Originally Posted by nedz View Post
    No

    As Mcl01 says, sources? xD


    Quote Originally Posted by Greenish View Post
    You actually get full attack with the Weapon, and then can use all your "free" naturals (ie. not claws when you've attacked with two-hander) as secondaries.
    Please tell me you're joking.
    Last edited by Myou; 2010-05-29 at 02:39 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Natural weapons and full attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenish View Post
    You actually get full attack with the Weapon, and then can use all your "free" naturals (ie. not claws when you've attacked with two-hander) as secondaries.
    Greenish is correct. Sometimes this gets confusing, though - the example vampires in the monster manual for example refrain from using their slam attacks as secondary, even though that would be optimal.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Natural weapons and full attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Myou View Post
    What happens when you use TWFing then? And which weapon does Haste give the extra attack to?
    When TWFing, you get your normal TWF sequence and then your natural attacks. Haste gives an extra attack with one weapon of your choosing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Myou View Post
    You're saying warforged and all other creatures with natural weapons actually get a free extra attack on a full attack?
    Yes, though Slam could be argued to require a free hand (or even two), since Slam attacks are made with arms.
    Quote Originally Posted by Myou View Post
    As Mcl01 says, sources? xD
    Natural Weapons and Haste in SRD. I'll dig up the rest in a moment.

    [Edit]: Vampire entry has this:
    Full Attack
    A vampire fighting without weapons uses either its slam attack (see above) or its natural weapons (if it has any). If armed with a weapon, it usually uses the weapon as its primary attack along with a slam or other natural weapon as a natural secondary attack.
    The details in general are spelled out somewhere, I'm positive.
    Last edited by Greenish; 2010-05-29 at 03:09 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Natural weapons and full attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenish View Post
    when TWFing, you get your normal TWF sequence and then your natural attacks. Haste gives an extra attack with one weapon of your choosing.
    Yes, though Slam could be argued to require a free hand (or even two), since Slam attacks are made with arms.
    Natural Weapons and Haste in SRD. I'll dig up the rest in a moment.
    The text doesn't say you can use your natural weapons as extra attacks at the end of a full attack.
    Last edited by Myou; 2010-05-29 at 03:08 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Natural weapons and full attacks

    MM p299
    Natural and Manufactured Weapons
    Full iteration of Manufactured weapons and then natural weapons as secondary.

    Seems I may have mis-interpreted this as just the one secondary.

    TWF, Haste effect your Primary attacks

    You cannot get iteratives with natural weapons - MM several places

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    Default Re: [3.5] Natural weapons and full attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by nedz View Post
    MM p299
    Natural and Manufactured Weapons
    Full iteration of Manufactured weapons and then natural weapons as secondary.

    Seems I may have mis-interpreted this as just the one secondary.

    TWF, Haste effect your Primary attacks

    You cannot get iteratives with natural weapons - MM several places
    Gah, it really is in the rules. Doesn't this give races with natural weapons a pretty big advantage?

    Also, what happens if you're a warforged using a THW? Does that prevent you using your slam, or can your slam be used by another bodypart? Or can you take a hand of yor weapon for free?

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    Default Re: [3.5] Natural weapons and full attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Myou View Post
    Gah, it really is in the rules. Doesn't this give races with natural weapons a pretty big advantage?
    Hence the LA
    Quote Originally Posted by Myou View Post
    Also, what happens if you're a warforged using a THW? Does that prevent you using your slam, or can your slam be used by another bodypart? Or can you take a hand of yor weapon for free?
    MM p312 Natural Weapons - Slap or Slam ... batters with an appendage dealing Bludgoning.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Natural weapons and full attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Myou View Post
    Gah, it really is in the rules. Doesn't this give races with natural weapons a pretty big advantage?
    It's nice to have, but not a game-breaker. Makes kobolds an interesting choice for rogues, for example.
    Quote Originally Posted by Myou View Post
    Also, what happens if you're a warforged using a THW? Does that prevent you using your slam, or can your slam be used by another bodypart? Or can you take a hand of yor weapon for free?
    Slam attacks are made with "an appendage" as nedz points out. The natural weapons section also says that "Large creatures with arms or arm-like limbs can make a slam attack with each arm". Make of that what you will.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Natural weapons and full attacks

    Maybe you can use a leg for Slam? So you slash them then kick them?
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    Default Re: [3.5] Natural weapons and full attacks

    One thing that's ridiculously confusing is that a lot of Natural Attacks use your hands, and it can become exceedingly unclear whether or not you're actually entitled to all of the attacks.

    For example, a Wildclaw Shifter Totemist shapes Claws of the Wyrm (he's got Dragontouched as a feat, I guess), binds Bloodclaws to his Totem, and shifts. He now has 6 Claw attacks - one pair from shifting, one pair from Claws of the Wyrm, one pair from Bloodclaws. He also has only two arms, and so he only gets to use one pair of Claw attacks.

    If he equips a weapon in one hand, he can't use one of those Claw attacks, bringing him down to just one.

    If he equips a weapon in both hands, he can't use any of his Claw attacks, as his hands are full of weapons.

    Meanwhile, if he bound Girallon Arms to his Totem instead of Bloodclaws, he'd have four arms, which means he should be able to use four Claw attacks. Which four? I'm not entirely sure; he's entitled to 8, but he might have to use the Girallon Arms secondary Claws for two of them...

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenish View Post
    Yes, though Slam could be argued to require a free hand (or even two), since Slam attacks are made with arms.
    Not always, in fact not usually IIRC. Slams are usually more body slams than whacking things with your arms. You only get to whack things with your arms if you are very large with very large arms, and each arm could be "body slam" as effectively as a smaller creature's entire body, I believe.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Natural weapons and full attacks

    Slam attacks are a bit strange sometimes.
    e.g. The Gelatanous Cube gets one, but it has no appendages.
    (Well unless it attacks with its corners or something )

    Edit:
    If you want an example of mixing naturals and manufactured look at:
    Trog p246 MM
    in the Full Attack section of the Stat block
    Last edited by nedz; 2010-05-29 at 03:42 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Natural weapons and full attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by nedz View Post
    Slam attacks are a bit strange sometimes.
    e.g. The Gelatanous Cube gets one, but it has no appendages.
    (Well unless it attacks with its corners or something )
    Fear the corners of the cube!
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    Default Re: [3.5] Natural weapons and full attacks

    Just for added clarification, the dragon wielding a sword in the example above would get attacks as follows (assuming no extra feats):

    - Full # of iterative attacks with the sword based on his BAB (don't forget the penalty for using a weapon of an inappropriate size, if applicable)

    - Claw/Bite/Wing/Wing/Tail all at BAB -5 (assuming the dragon has all of those attack forms)
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    Default Re: [3.5] Natural weapons and full attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenish View Post
    It's nice to have, but not a game-breaker. Makes kobolds an interesting choice for rogues, for example.
    Slam attacks are made with "an appendage" as nedz points out. The natural weapons section also says that "Large creatures with arms or arm-like limbs can make a slam attack with each arm". Make of that what you will.
    Wow, I'm just going to ignore the issue of slams with more than one limb at a time. xP

    Quote Originally Posted by volthawk View Post
    Maybe you can use a leg for Slam? So you slash them then kick them?
    Crotch thrust of death.

    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    Just for added clarification, the dragon wielding a sword in the example above would get attacks as follows (assuming no extra feats):

    - Full # of iterative attacks with the sword based on his BAB (don't forget the penalty for using a weapon of an inappropriate size, if applicable)

    - Claw/Bite/Wing/Wing/Tail all at BAB -5 (assuming the dragon has all of those attack forms)
    Indeed, I have to use this.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Natural weapons and full attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Myou View Post
    Wow, I'm just going to ignore the issue of slams with more than one limb at a time. xP
    DragoonWraith's interpretation is as good as mine, if not better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Myou View Post
    Indeed, I have to use this.
    You won't be the first one to have fun with natural attacks.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Natural weapons and full attacks

    Your average medium humanoid, from what I can tell, provided two arms, two legs, two wings, one head, and one tail, could make two Claw attacks, two Wing attacks, one Horn attack, one Bite attack, one Slam attack, and one Tail attack.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Natural weapons and full attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by DragoonWraith View Post
    Your average medium humanoid, from what I can tell, provided two arms, two legs, two wings, one head, and one tail, could make two Claw attacks, two Wing attacks, one Horn attack, one Bite attack, one Slam attack, and one Tail attack.
    The average humanoids around your part of the world are… interesting.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Natural weapons and full attacks

    I meant more in terms of the sort of "slots" they have available. Mainly, lots of things add Claws, not many things add Arms. Plenty of things let you bite; can't think of anything that gives you another head with which to do it, if you already have one. That kind of thing.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Natural weapons and full attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by DragoonWraith View Post
    I meant more in terms of the sort of "slots" they have available. Mainly, lots of things add Claws, not many things add Arms. Plenty of things let you bite; can't think of anything that gives you another head with which to do it, if you already have one. That kind of thing.
    Oh, I see. How many tentacle slots does an average humanoid have?
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    Default Re: [3.5] Natural weapons and full attacks

    While we're on the subject, couldn't (for example) a Monk with claws make his normal unarmed attacks and then use his claw attacks as secondary weapons? What with how an unarmed attack can be made with any part of the body and all?
    Quote Originally Posted by Thespianus View Post
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    Default Re: [3.5] Natural weapons and full attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by DragoonWraith View Post
    ... can't think of anything that gives you another head with which to do it, if you already have one. That kind of thing.
    Polymorph -> Hydra

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    Default Re: [3.5] Natural weapons and full attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by SurlySeraph View Post
    While we're on the subject, couldn't (for example) a Monk with claws make his normal unarmed attacks and then use his claw attacks as secondary weapons?
    Yeah, sure.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Natural weapons and full attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by DragoonWraith View Post
    I meant more in terms of the sort of "slots" they have available. Mainly, lots of things add Claws, not many things add Arms. Plenty of things let you bite; can't think of anything that gives you another head with which to do it, if you already have one. That kind of thing.
    Multi-headed template (Savage Species) gives you many heads.
    Quote Originally Posted by A_Moon View Post
    How many times, when the Fighter says "I draw my sword", did you just want to smack that cheating-optimizer in the face and say "No! You don't draw your sword! You draw Orcus!". When the Cleric says "I run away from Orcus!": "No! You run into Orcus! Rogue tries to hide? He hides behind Orcus! The bard in a tavern on the other side the town tries to order a drink? How about a nice frothy mug of Orcus?

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    Default Re: [3.5] Natural weapons and full attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by DragoonWraith View Post
    can't think of anything that gives you another head with which to do it, if you already have one. That kind of thing.
    Bind the Threefold Mask of the Chimera to your totem chakra for two bites and a headbutt.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Natural weapons and full attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenish View Post
    Oh, I see. How many tentacle slots does an average humanoid have?
    If you have a ton of feat slots to burn....

    Aberrant Blood > Inhuman Reach > Deepspawn gives 2.
    Totemist binding Displacer Mantle gives 2 more, although they can't be combined.
    Illithid Heritage + Illithid Grapple x4 gives 4 more tenticles.
    Manifest Form of Doom (PsyWar6) gives another 4 tenticles.
    Attract Symbiot (Tenticle Whip) gives another.

    So...if you were really ambitious, you could have what, 13 tenticles? If you started polymorphed into a giant octopus, you'd be at 21.

    Run, little japanese school girl, RUN!
    Last edited by Keld Denar; 2010-05-29 at 08:26 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Natural weapons and full attacks

    Changeling Warshaper for more natural weapon fun.
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