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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default (Any) Your most annoying player...

    I made this thread because I want to complain, and I want to know I’m not alone. What is the most annoying player you have ever DM’d for?

    I currently have a player in my games who has the following problems:

    1 – He is a self-proclaimed rules lawyer and optimizer who unfortunately does not know many of the rules. Amongst the beautiful gems he has tried to argue with me about have included improved trip (Player: “I don’t need to look in the book. My high-level in fighter in our other game has it and I know it doesn’t give you an extra attack on a successful trip.” DM for High Level Game: “Yes it does.” Player: “I’m telling you it doesn’t!”), what level you can take prestige classes at RE: Skillpoints, what a full attack entails, and that sidestep + robilar’s gambit makes you invincible (rather than just immune to full attacks).

    2 – He takes “do not metagame” to the extreme.

    Player: “I don’t know where that fiendish centipede that is grappling my opponent came from, so I try to light it on fire.” Wizard: “…I’m standing behind you. I summoned it. And its FIGHTING YOUR ENEMIES.”
    Player: “How would I know that?”
    Wizard: “BECAUSE I’M STANDING BEHIND YOU!”

    Player: “Listen, you were unconscious, you don’t know that the dire lion skeleton that has been animated is on your side.”
    Cleric that just woke up: “But...there’s a necromancer on our team and nothing on the opposing team could animate dead so…”
    Player: “So you need to attack it!”
    Dread Necro: “HEY CLERIC THAT JUST WOKE UP I AM CONTROLLING THE SKELETON DON’T HIT IT.”
    Cleric: “…Happy now?”
    Player: “I guess…”

    3 – He refuses to make the jumps in logic and basic convenience that are necessary for a D&D game.
    Cleric: “Okay, so, with this +2 Charisma item, I get an extra turn attempt per day, correct?”
    Me (DM): “Yes.”
    Player: “Actually, no he doesn’t.”
    Me: “…Why?”
    Player: “Well, he didn’t state he went to bed with his cloak on so when his turn attempts would refresh, wouldn’t that mean that…”
    Me: “I want you to understand that we are friends and will remain friends but I swear to God I am going to beat you to death with this DMG.”
    Player: “…I just want to stick to the rules!”
    Me: “I’m going to kill you.”

    4 – He’s…well, he’s kind of a bad player and he gives terrible advice and unfortunately, people listen to him. He also has an absolute hard-on for the fighter class. What’s worse is that he hangs out with the group more than me (they all live in the same neighborhood, I live a bit outside of it) so they end up coming to each session with me correcting rules misinterpretations and bad advice when they ask me about certain things.

    Player: “So, as a fighter, you basically want to have weapon focus and weapon specialization as early as possible.”
    Me: “Actually, to be fair, those feats are fairly weak when you’re playing outside of core, compared to other feats such as…”
    Player: “Whatever, I know fighters, man.”

    Me advising the person trying to play a melee cleric: “You see, with Divine Metamagic, you can eventually persist Divine Power, which grants you full BAB, more strength, more hitpoints…you’re basically a fighter with powerful cleric spells and better class features.”
    Player: “See, I never got that…why not just play a fighter? Then you get bonus feats, too.”
    Me: “…Because…you…you get cleric casting?”
    Player: “Psh, just dip cleric and buy some wands.”

    Player: “Never ban evocation as a wizard, it’s your most powerful school.”

    ::headdesk::

    I just wanted to vent. This fellow got very frustrating last week, so I just needed a chance to spit venom for a bit and hopefully see that I’m not the only one with this kind of problem. All in all, I love my group, and this is fairly minor, just ludicrously frustrating.
    "We speak for the dead. We are all they have when the wicked steal their voice. But we do not owe them our lives."

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    Default Re: (Any) Your most annoying player...

    Holy crap. This guy's a loser. DO hit him with DMG I & II repeatedly. He's a pain in the butt. I mean, yeah, outside of core, WF and WS isn't great, but it has its uses (PrCs, Feats, ect) plus MANY items give it to you for free. and the Evocation thing, I say this to him: For blasting, Evocation is your bread and butter. But outside of blasting, its crap. Me personally, I used to run a Utterdark Nukromancer (Necromancer specialized in basically Cone of Utterdark Cold essentially) with a few evocation spells. Necromancy has the best though (LOTS of nasty ray and ranged touch spells)

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    Orc in the Playground
     
    Marriclay's Avatar

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    Default Re: (Any) Your most annoying player...

    Quote Originally Posted by Machiavellian View Post
    Holy crap. This guy's a loser. DO hit him with DMG I & II repeatedly
    I dunno, you just gave me the image of a nerd flying slow motion over a coffee table towards another nerd, dual wielding massive books. It was awesome.

    On topic: This guy obviously doesn't know what he's talking about. In general, people are insecure about what they think is correct and so listen to the advice of others to help them shore up their skills. eventually, when they see the reasoning behind it and put it into effect, they gain confidence in the abilities of the thing they just did.

    But then, there's guys like these. They don't build up that confidence, they have it inborn and as soon as they think something is awesome, that confidence makes it hard to sway them from that position. These guys are 1 in 1000, just common enough to make them supremely annoying.

    Your best bet is to throw some math at him, or challenge his optimizing skills. If he can beat a battle cleric of equal level with a fighter, then you shut up and stop pestering him. If he loses though, he has to start actually listening to you about the way the game works. of course, he'll still throw in some stupid comments but by showing him that he's dead wrong about something it should shake his resolve and make him more receptive. As long as you're not too harsh about it, that should make things ok
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    Default Re: (Any) Your most annoying player...

    Quote Originally Posted by Marriclay View Post
    I dunno, you just gave me the image of a nerd flying slow motion over a coffee table towards another nerd, dual wielding massive books. It was awesome.

    On topic: This guy obviously doesn't know what he's talking about. In general, people are insecure about what they think is correct and so listen to the advice of others to help them shore up their skills. eventually, when they see the reasoning behind it and put it into effect, they gain confidence in the abilities of the thing they just did.

    But then, there's guys like these. They don't build up that confidence, they have it inborn and as soon as they think something is awesome, that confidence makes it hard to sway them from that position. These guys are 1 in 1000, just common enough to make them supremely annoying.

    Your best bet is to throw some math at him, or challenge his optimizing skills. If he can beat a battle cleric of equal level with a fighter, then you shut up and stop pestering him. If he loses though, he has to start actually listening to you about the way the game works. of course, he'll still throw in some stupid comments but by showing him that he's dead wrong about something it should shake his resolve and make him more receptive. As long as you're not too harsh about it, that should make things ok
    Hello, signature!

    I agree with the battle, though tell him to build an Optimized Monk to face an Optimized Wizard.

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    Orc in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: (Any) Your most annoying player...

    Those are great, you should vent some more and give us a good time with your prose.

    Anyway, yes, I have one of those and he drives me crazy as I am the DM in that game right now. He is the opposite of your guy, however.

    He metagames all the time and expects the other characters to things for him (or even like him) when he rarely reciprocates. He builds what seem to be optimized characters but he does not fully understand the rules so he stacks stuff that shouldn't stack, etc. When we get to the game, he seems to make every save and his attacks seem to get better on his multiple attacks even with the resulting -5 to each consecutive attack.

    In a nutshell, he can be very frustrating but we have endured up until now and may continue to endure for some time. So we all have those types, just practice patience is my advice.

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    Default Re: (Any) Your most annoying player...

    hmm I don't have such problems concerning rules Lawyering and optimizing in my group (I am the rules layer and optimizaer of my group XP), anyway the youngest player in our group is in LOVE with the Chaotic Stupid aligment whether he is playing CG, CN or CE.

    Examples:

    CG: The crazy guy of the town, insane bard which kidnap people to tell them stories and then let them free, got pretty upset when the town's guard went to his house (it was his plot hook) and then ruined an carefully planed ambush.

    Me: Ok so weI wait hidden here (point square in the map) in wolf form, ready an action to charge and trip the enemy when he passes in front of me. (I was playing Olescamo's Werewolf class)
    Druid: Then I cast entangle centered away from you so It affectxs the enemies but not wolfie.
    Paladin: And I charge!
    Bard:...I shout "HEY DROW!!!! DAZE!!!! (cast Daze at the drow we are trying to ambush)
    Me :facepalm

    CN: Tried to start a communist rebelion in sharn in an Eberron game, got himself into prison and we lost most of the session trying to get him out.

    CE: Barbarian Thri-krinn.
    DM (ME) ok, you all enter the shady tavern, the barman is a halfling who is...
    BTK: A halflingt?
    DM yes a halfling, so as I was saying....
    BTK: I Rage, charge him and start eating him!
    All: What?
    BTK: I hate halflings, so I eat him.
    DM: Ok.. make a grapple checks
    BTK: For what?
    DM: to grapple the halfling
    BTK: But I don't want to grapple him, I want to eat him.
    DM you need to grapple him before you can eat him.
    BTK: oh right (pass grapple checks) now I eat him.
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    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: (Any) Your most annoying player...

    Player: I hide & move silently into the room filled with guards.
    Me: Uh. You know all 10 will get a listen check vs. your presence?
    Player: Yea, yea. My hide is 36 and MS is 33.
    Me: Natural 20.
    Player: What?! How the hell!
    Me: Statistics says there is a 10 in 20 chance of me rolling a nat20. Or 50%.
    Player: WHAAAAAA! *insert moaning about he can never stealth anywhere."

    Later in life, playing a published campaign.

    Me: There's a door.
    Player: I kick the door open.
    Me: ??
    Player: Well, you don't let me do anything rogue-ish anyway.
    Me: Take 12d6 trap damage.
    Player: What the hell!!!
    Me: *Points at book* This isn't about YOU! This isn't me vs. YOU! *Angrily pokes book with my index finger* STOP BEING STUPID!
    Group who just got Fireballed: WTF MAN!

    After the dungeon, back in town.

    Player: I found these awesome magic pants in some Bastion Press book.
    Me: Ok?
    Player: Can I buy them?
    Me: ... I guess. Do you have a Pants slot for magic items? /sarcasm
    Player: WHHHHAAAAAAA! *Insert more moaning about how life is unfair*



    That's what I've got going.

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    Halfling in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: (Any) Your most annoying player...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff240sx View Post
    Me: Natural 20.
    Umm, so?

    Skill checks don't work that way.

    Funny story, we have a DM that absolutely refused to let a player take 1 on a skill check and insisted that he roll the dice. We were never able to explain to him why this was a waste of time in such a way that he understood...
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    InkEyes's Avatar

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    Default Re: (Any) Your most annoying player...

    One guy in a group I've played in for a long time is more ready and willing to twist the rules (and the lack of 3.5 knowledge the DMs have) to his advantage. He'll talk about people disappearing when they're touched by someone wearing a ring of invisibility as a player, and insist that it takes a half dozen rounds for summoned creatures to show up to a battle as a DM. He also enjoys taking his characters to brothels and meleeing a monster with a quarterstaff. As a wizard. I don't think he'd ever willfully do something that would ruin the party's chances of making a profit (unless he was DMing maybe) and he's an okay guy to talk to, but he's a very obnoxious player.

    I have other stories, but most of them revolve around rules disputes and I'm not sure if the history these guys have with older editions of D&D excuses them or not. Still, they've been playing 3.0+3.5 (while using PHBs and DMGs from both versions) for over nine years now. I'm starting to get a bit worried.

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    Titan in the Playground
     
    Dusk Eclipse's Avatar

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    Default Re: (Any) Your most annoying player...

    Quote Originally Posted by crizh View Post
    Umm, so?

    Skill checks don't work that way.

    Funny story, we have a DM that absolutely refused to let a player take 1 on a skill check and insisted that he roll the dice. We were never able to explain to him why this was a waste of time in such a way that he understood...
    It is a pretty common housrule (IME) that natural 20 is an automatic success in all rolls
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: (Any) Your most annoying player...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff240sx View Post
    Player: I hide & move silently into the room filled with guards.
    Me: Uh. You know all 10 will get a listen check vs. your presence?
    Player: Yea, yea. My hide is 36 and MS is 33.
    Me: Natural 20.
    Player: What?! How the hell!
    Me: Statistics says there is a 10 in 20 chance of me rolling a nat20. Or 50%.
    Player: WHAAAAAA! *insert moaning about he can never stealth anywhere."
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD, about skill checks
    Unlike with attack rolls and saving throws, a natural roll of 20 on the d20 is not an automatic success, and a natural roll of 1 is not an automatic failure.
    If their Listen is less than 13, they can't hear him even on a 20. By RAW, at least. Your RAI may vary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusk Eclipse View Post
    It is a pretty common housrule (IME) that natural 20 is an automatic success in all rolls
    That's harsh. Because then you'd also have to make a natural 1 auto-fail. And then a high-level rogue sneaking past a low-level loser guard would have approximately 10% chance of failing regardless of modifiers (either the rogue rolls 1 or guard rolls 20).

    That would really make stealth useless.
    Last edited by Lin Bayaseda; 2010-06-01 at 02:25 PM.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Ponce's Avatar

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    Default Re: (Any) Your most annoying player...

    The probability was also closer to 40%

    1 - (0.95)^20
    "...short, wrinkled, and superfluous." Yes... yes.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Just_Ice's Avatar

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    Default Re: (Any) Your most annoying player...

    At least the DM (which I guess is you) won't have to play much catch-up.

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    Orc in the Playground
     
    Marriclay's Avatar

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    Default Re: (Any) Your most annoying player...

    Quote Originally Posted by crizh View Post
    Umm, so?

    Skill checks don't work that way.

    Funny story, we have a DM that absolutely refused to let a player take 1 on a skill check and insisted that he roll the dice. We were never able to explain to him why this was a waste of time in such a way that he understood...
    some groups run on the idea that skill checks also have critical success and failure. for many, it is as much a houserule as what the DM lays out in the beginning of the game, and it sometimes actually is
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    Greenish's Avatar

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    Default Re: (Any) Your most annoying player...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff240sx View Post
    Player: I hide & move silently into the room filled with guards.
    Me: Uh. You know all 10 will get a listen check vs. your presence?
    Player: Yea, yea. My hide is 36 and MS is 33.
    Me: Natural 20.
    Player: What?! How the hell!
    Me: Statistics says there is a 10 in 20 chance of me rolling a nat20. Or 50%.
    Player: WHAAAAAA! *insert moaning about he can never stealth anywhere."
    You should actually roll the skills, and NPCs autosucceeding on skillchecks with nat 20 is just silly. Besides, if he has invested heavily on stealth, you should allow it to work.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: (Any) Your most annoying player...

    I agree with Greenish. Having 30+ on a skill is a lot. It's above and beyond of what a normal person would be capable of. In fact, it's above and beyond of what a normal person would be capable of imagining. If he managed to get his skills so high, let him use it.

    Rather than fight him with a "nya nya 20!", incorporate his amazing stealth exploit into the story somehow.

    In fact, I dare say, with a hushed voice, that this was more of a "bad DM" story than a "bad player" story. Sorry for any offense this may cause.

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    Halfling in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: (Any) Your most annoying player...

    This is a thread about annoying players, yes?

    A player that complains that a major rules-change to the way skills work has nerfed his skill-monkey character could be construed to have a point, yesno?
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Asheram's Avatar

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    Default Re: (Any) Your most annoying player...

    Quote Originally Posted by crizh View Post
    This is a thread about annoying players, yes?

    A player that complains that a major rules-change to the way skills work has nerfed his skill-monkey character could be construed to have a point, yesno?
    Well... Personally I think that every player has the right to argue a houserule to a lesser extent. Not whine about it, but set up a proper argument.
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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: (Any) Your most annoying player...

    I used to have a player that claimed real life expertise in whatever subject was advantageous and then argue with me about things based on reality.

    Me: Alright, you can cross the valley on horseback in 2 hours based on it's current speed and the undergrowth.
    Him: I've ridden horses through wooded terrain when I was in scouts, there's no way light underbrush would slow a horse and it shouldn't even be encumbered anyway. The encumberance tables are such bull.

    On and on and on. He was so consistently an expert at everything I eventually called bull**** on anything.

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    Superhero in the Playground Moderator
     
    Mark Hall's Avatar

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    Default Re: (Any) Your most annoying player...

    To be fair, the guy is also trying to hide in a room described as "filled with guards". Unless he has HiPS, it's gonna be like holding up a leaf and saying "I'm Hiding!"

    However, I've got a few annoying ones.

    1) Miss Can't Add. She's got this thing where she doesn't add things up on her sheet. Meaning she adds them, laboriously, each time. She also has a tendency to find a couple modifiers she "forgot" that give her successes on pretty much anything above a 1.

    2) I Look For the Back Door. Looking for the back door is a viable strategy... if the rest of your party is in on it. When a good portion of your party is involved in a conversation-turned-combat at the front door, your gimpy dwarven legs should not be running ALL THE WAY AROUND THE BUILDING to see if there's a back door. Every time. It's seldom "Hey, let's investigate the back door." It's "My first action is to run away from combat and find a back door."
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    Default Re: (Any) Your most annoying player...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    To be fair, the guy is also trying to hide in a room described as "filled with guards". Unless he has HiPS, it's gonna be like holding up a leaf and saying "I'm Hiding!"
    I assume the player has HiPS, because otherwise what the guards roll wouldn't matter.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: (Any) Your most annoying player...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    To be fair, the guy is also trying to hide in a room described as "filled with guards". Unless he has HiPS, it's gonna be like holding up a leaf and saying "I'm Hiding!"
    Isn't that how Hide in Plain Sight works?
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    Default Re: (Any) Your most annoying player...

    Quote Originally Posted by Irreverent Fool View Post
    Isn't that how Hide in Plain Sight works?
    If you have the stronger version of HiPS, you don't need the leaf.
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    This board needs a "you're technically right but I still want to crawl into the fetal position and cry" emoticon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yukitsu View Post
    I define [optimization] as "the process by which one attains a build meeting all mechanical and characterization goals set out by the creator prior to its creation."
    Praise for avatar may be directed to Derjuin.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: (Any) Your most annoying player...

    that guy who used to lie about his die rolls - he's not playing anymore.

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    Default Re: (Any) Your most annoying player...

    I had a player that decided he wouldn't like playing before we even started, rolled up the the most MAD character he could, and made constant suboptimal choices for major things, like taking a 1d6 weapon instead of a 2d6 Brutal 1 weapon because the blade on the 1d6 weapon was curved, and he worshiped a moon god... In a class who's damage dealing assumes they're wielding a very big weapon. A better weapon can still have a moon inscribed on it.

    He found all the ways, short of making a Hybrid character, to have an unplayably bad character in 4e. He's still convinced, obviously, that 4e sucks. To humor him though, I tried out a 3.5e game he DMed. I didn't assume anything either. After wandering aimlessly for a couple months without a single plot hook and seeing the same 4 monsters repeatedly, everyone in that game just left... Ogres, Orcs, Kobolds and Humans happened to be indigenous to the area, so there WAS nothing else. And a plot hook walking up to us wasn't realistic, so we had to find one ourselves, which was impossible.

    -----

    I had another that lasted for 2 sessions... Was constantly trying to send everyone lewd sketches of their female Dwarf... And two others at around the same time that both didn't understand the concepts of "You're in a party. Even if you just got here, if someone else in the party needs help, you help." and "You're in a party. You know stuff, you tell everyone else." The latter taught me not to use the whisper feature ever...

    -----

    All in all, I learned simply to never play D&D over the internet.
    Last edited by Thajocoth; 2010-06-01 at 04:52 PM.
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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Planetar

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    Default Re: (Any) Your most annoying player...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    1) Miss Can't Add. She's got this thing where she doesn't add things up on her sheet. Meaning she adds them, laboriously, each time. She also has a tendency to find a couple modifiers she "forgot" that give her successes on pretty much anything above a 1.
    Yeah...given that she's using the character builder, the amount of math she does is amazing. That being said, the skill she does have, she has ridiculously high values in, so I doubt she's ever cheating about her ridiculous rolls (I don't think she cares enough about it to cheat)


    2) I Look For the Back Door. Looking for the back door is a viable strategy... if the rest of your party is in on it. When a good portion of your party is involved in a conversation-turned-combat at the front door, your gimpy dwarven legs should not be running ALL THE WAY AROUND THE BUILDING to see if there's a back door. Every time. It's seldom "Hey, let's investigate the back door." It's "My first action is to run away from combat and find a back door."
    He's also a bit tired of his current character, and may be trying to get him killed. That being said, his combat logic is...weak.
    Last edited by Hzurr; 2010-06-01 at 05:02 PM.

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    Default Re: (Any) Your most annoying player...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hzurr View Post
    Yeah...given that she's using the character builder, the amount of math she does is amazing. That being said, the skill she does have, she has ridiculously high values in, so I doubt she's ever cheating about her ridiculous rolls (I don't think she cares enough about it to cheat)
    Actually, that one's for my other gaming group. The Wife does pretty well, but she'll also announce that she's failed... sometimes many, many, many times in a single combat. You won't hear me complain about The Wife (except, maybe, her taste in men... but given that she hangs around with all of us, I think we can safely say she's just horrifically handicapped in that department. )

    He's also a bit tired of his current character, and may be trying to get him killed. That being said, his combat logic is...weak.
    I can understand wanting to switch characters. I can hardly fault someone for that (I'm on character number what now? 7?). He's just convinced that he has this awesome plan... that never works, and he doesn't bother to share with the rest of us.
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    Default Re: (Any) Your most annoying player...

    Quote Originally Posted by Marriclay View Post
    I dunno, you just gave me the image of a nerd flying slow motion over a coffee table towards another nerd, dual wielding massive books. It was awesome.
    Sir, you have made my day. That was indeed an awesome image. Mind if I sig?

    My most annoying player is nowhere near this guy's level. Our guy tries to optimize and whines when I recommend "suboptimal" choices, but it seems he can't do much better.

    He also combs CharOp forums and these forums a lot and uses really strange homebrew combinations. He's the primary reason I typically do not allow homebrew---not because they're broken or imba or anything, but because he just gets so annoying when he brings up all sorts of character concepts I have neither the time nor patience to interpret.

    That said, once parameters have been properly set, he does come up with some fairly interesting builds.


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    Default Re: (Any) Your most annoying player...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusk Eclipse View Post
    It is a pretty common housrule (IME) that natural 20 is an automatic success in all rolls
    That leads to many absurd situations though. Taking 20 means you auto-succeed at pretty much anything, for example. A halfling with -5 Jump can keep trying and eventually Jump to the moon with this houserule.
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    Default Re: (Any) Your most annoying player...

    Quote Originally Posted by PId6 View Post
    That leads to many absurd situations though. Taking 20 means you auto-succeed at pretty much anything, for example. A halfling with -5 Jump can keep trying and eventually Jump to the moon with this houserule.
    Ah, so you have heard of NAHA, the National Airborne Halfling Administration.
    Quote Originally Posted by Calanon View Post
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