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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default D&D 3.5 and Custom Magic Items

    So, I know this has probably been brought up a thousand thousand times, and will probably be brought up a thousand thousand more, but I've encountered a lot of DMs recently who want to jack up the price on relatively simple items just because there's a "similar" item out there with a higher price.

    The most recent example was someone wanting to create a Ring of Shield (continuous Shield effect) and the DM wanting it to cost so much more than the rules said it did because of the Ring of Force Shield's price.

    I started looking a little deeper and was shocked at the number of items in the DMG alone that didn't follow WotC's pricing scheme for magic items. Cloak of the Bat, for instance, should cost ~84k gold just for its flying portion, perhaps a 10-15% reduction for its "cooldown". Ring of Force Shield should cost 10k (40k, if you take into account that it 'has an effect based on a spell with a duration of rounds/level', which multiplies final cost by 4), the Candle of Invocation should cost 32,650gp, and so on.

    So, what's the thought here? Because we're going into creating our own magic items (clearly outlined by the DMG and SRD), we should be punished because WotC didn't follow the rules they wrote up?

    Meh. Just another annoyance when trying to find 3.5 games...
    Last edited by RelentlessImp; 2010-06-04 at 03:00 PM.
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    Calmar's Avatar

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    Default Re: D&D 3.5 and Custom Magic Items

    Thou shallt not abuse the rules to create overpowered items, or I'll create a cheap +1 greatsword of truestriking.

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: D&D 3.5 and Custom Magic Items

    Quote Originally Posted by Calmar View Post
    Thou shallt not abuse the rules to create overpowered items, or I'll create a cheap +1 greatsword of truestriking.
    I'm trying to figure out where a Ring of Shield is overpowered, honestly.
    Now if you don't mind, I am somewhat preoccupied telling the laws of physics to shut up and sit down.
    I cast irresistable phantasmal killer as a 4th level spell. No save, just die.

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    Default Re: D&D 3.5 and Custom Magic Items

    Price things by their benefits, not by their spells, if at all possible.

    Ring of Shield would be priced at armor bonus cost, because they apply in the same circumstances.

    +4 bonus ^ 2 = 16 * 1000 = 16000 gp for your custom +4 shield bonus ring. Same price as Bracers of Armor.

    EDIT: Ring of Force Shield should be roughly 4000gp, but I'm guessing it got priced double because it's a force effect, +500 because it counts as a shield and can be turned on/off.
    Last edited by Siosilvar; 2010-06-04 at 03:29 PM. Reason: clarification of ring of shield
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    tyckspoon's Avatar

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    Default Re: D&D 3.5 and Custom Magic Items

    Cloak of the Bat is discounted because of:
    The cooldown factor, preventing long-term and continuous flight
    The darkness factor, preventing you from using it in any kind of well-lit situation
    and the occupied hands factor- you are required to either hold the edges of it in your hands or turn into a bat completely, neither of which are very conducive to doing anything else while you fly (like fight. Most classes are incapable of fighting while flying with a Cloak of the Bat.)

    And so it is judged to be worth much less than a straight up Use Activated item of Fly would be.

    The prices based on spells should be used as little as possible when making an item. If the spell effect you want grants a standard bonus, use the formula for that bonus instead. And always remember that they are item creation guidelines- the only solid rule in them is the one that says "The price of a custom item is up to the DM."

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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: D&D 3.5 and Custom Magic Items

    Spell pricing is the last recourse when determining magic item costs. Pricing based on similar items, as those DMs you find annoying are doing, is the first option.

    It's the way the rules are supposed to work, so I suggest you take a deep breath and accept the RAW.

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: D&D 3.5 and Custom Magic Items

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    Spell pricing is the last recourse when determining magic item costs. Pricing based on similar items, as those DMs you find annoying are doing, is the first option.

    It's the way the rules are supposed to work, so I suggest you take a deep breath and accept the RAW.
    I never said it shouldn't be priced on similar items. The exact line was "it'll cost more than the Ring of Force Shield - and likely out of your price range". "Out of price range" means ~18k in said game - and seems a ridiculous markup.

    Pricing it by similar effects is fine - pricing it because of a knee-jerk reaction to the words "custom magic items" is where I start getting annoyed.
    Now if you don't mind, I am somewhat preoccupied telling the laws of physics to shut up and sit down.
    I cast irresistable phantasmal killer as a 4th level spell. No save, just die.

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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: D&D 3.5 and Custom Magic Items

    Quote Originally Posted by RelentlessImp View Post
    Pricing it by similar effects is fine - pricing it because of a knee-jerk reaction to the words "custom magic items" is where I start getting annoyed.
    OK; I'm sorry if I misunderstood the situation. Your DM is always right, though (whether that's reasonable or not).

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    Default Re: D&D 3.5 and Custom Magic Items

    Quote Originally Posted by RelentlessImp View Post
    I never said it shouldn't be priced on similar items. The exact line was "it'll cost more than the Ring of Force Shield - and likely out of your price range". "Out of price range" means ~18k in said game - and seems a ridiculous markup.

    Pricing it by similar effects is fine - pricing it because of a knee-jerk reaction to the words "custom magic items" is where I start getting annoyed.
    The spell Shield has several advantages over the Force Shield ring.

    a) The AC bonus is +4 instead of +2.

    b) It doesn't take a hand to use.

    c) It blocks Magic Missiles.

    These are nontrivial advantages.

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    Default Re: D&D 3.5 and Custom Magic Items

    Quote Originally Posted by Glimbur View Post
    The spell Shield has several advantages over the Force Shield ring.

    a) The AC bonus is +4 instead of +2.

    b) It doesn't take a hand to use.

    c) It blocks Magic Missiles.

    These are nontrivial advantages.
    On the flipside, though, I've never actually seen anyone use a Ring of Force Shield. Pricing based on similar items? Fine. Pricing based on similar items that are not usually considered worth their cost? Not so much.
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    DrowGirl

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    Default Re: D&D 3.5 and Custom Magic Items

    I prefer the Magic Item Compendium's rule for custom items: price them based on their usefulness.
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    Default Re: D&D 3.5 and Custom Magic Items

    Quote Originally Posted by The Shadowmind View Post
    I prefer the Magic Item Compendium's rule for custom items: price them based on their usefulness.
    I agree with this.

    The problem with the custom item rules is that it's possible to stack restrictions that make things too cheap. That's easy to deal with assuming you are talking to a somewhat rational person.

    DMG items are often unreasonably expensive for what they do, especially when compared to items printed in supplements, especially the MIC. You can be assured that if the Healing Belt had shown up in the DMG originally, it would probably cost 5-10 times as much.
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    Default Re: D&D 3.5 and Custom Magic Items

    Quote Originally Posted by Tar Palantir View Post
    On the flipside, though, I've never actually seen anyone use a Ring of Force Shield. Pricing based on similar items? Fine. Pricing based on similar items that are not usually considered worth their cost? Not so much.
    Too much opportunity cost on the ring; it loses out to Ring of Protection, Animated shields (+1 Animated shield: 9k plus the cost of the shield, usually a +3 shield bonus), and just flat out mundane heavy shields. The actual benefit of a Ring of Shield would be more closely compared to.. oh, maybe a +2 Animated Heavy Shield, which also provides a +4 Shield bonus without occupying your hands. And it costs.. hey, 16,000. So.. 18k-ish sounds about right for continuous Shield, given the other minor benefits it has over a real shield.

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