Results 1 to 27 of 27
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Siosilvar's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    USA
    Gender
    Male2Female

    Default "You seem a decent fellow... I hate to kill you." [3.5 Duelist Fix]

    OLD
    This is an old version of my duelist PrC. For the most updated version, see here. I'll get around to updating this post eventually.

    Purpose: To make the Duelist a viable class while still maintaining the core flavor and concepts of the class.
    Inspiration: This thread, especially Person Man's fix. The Warblade gave me a few ideas for what to add Intelligence to.

    The Duelist (also available on Google Documents)


    Requirements
    Base Attack Bonus: +5
    Feats: Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse
    Skills: Balance 4 ranks, Bluff 4 ranks, Tumble 6 ranks

    Hit Die: d10.

    Class Skills
    A duelist's class skills are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Escape Artist (Dex), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).
    A duelist gains (4 + Int modifier) skill points per level.

    {table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Refl|Will|Class Abilities|"The Numbers"
    1st|+1|+0|+2|+0|Canny Defense, Precise Strike|Precise Strike +1d6
    2nd|+2|+0|+3|+0|Burst Movement, Grace, Parry|Grace +1, Parry +3
    3rd|+3|+1|+3|+1|Burst Evasion, Improved Reaction|Precise Strike +2d6
    4th|+4|+1|+4|+1|Improved Disarm, Elaborate Defense, Slippery Strike|Parry +4
    5th|+5|+1|+4|+1|Advance, Supreme Balance, Riposte|Precise Strike +3d6
    6th|+6|+2|+5|+2|Flèche|Grace +2, Parry +5
    7th|+7|+2|+5|+2|Improved Parry, Critical Strike|Precise Strike +4d6
    8th|+8|+2|+6|+2|Feint-Disengage|Parry +6
    9th|+9|+3|+6|+3|Burst Lunge|Precise Strike +5d6
    10th|+10|+3|+7|+3|Greater Precise Strike|Precise Strike +5d8+10, Grace +3, Parry +7[/table]

    Weapon and Armor Proficiencies
    A duelist gains no proficiency with weapons or armor.

    Canny Defense (Ex)
    "I know something you don't know. I'm not left handed."
    When not wearing medium or heavier armor or carrying a heavy load, a duelist adds her Intelligence bonus as a dodge bonus to AC.

    This bonus is limited to 2 points per duelist level and may not be applied whenever the duelist is flat-footed or would otherwise lose her Dexterity bonus to AC.

    Precise Strike (Ex)
    "Hah, I see you have a sword. I have one, too. They're very manly and tough."
    Whenever attacking with a light or one-handed weapon, a duelist may deal additional damage.
    This additional damage is equal to 1d6 plus her Dexterity modifier, plus 1d6 for every 2 duelist levels she has attained after the first. While making a Precise Strike, a duelist may ignore a Strength penalty to damage.

    A duelist’s precise strike only works against living creatures with discernible anatomies. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to a precise strike, and any item or ability that protects a creature from critical hits also protects a creature from a precise strike.

    Precise Strike can be used with a light or one-handed throwing weapon or any crossbow, but the duelist must be within 30 feet of her target to apply the extra damage.

    Precise Strike counts as Sneak Attack for the purpose of qualifying for feats.

    Parry (Ex)
    "I see your schwartz is as big as mine, but can you handle it as well?"
    While fighting defensively, taking the total defense action, or using Combat Expertise, a duelist of at least 2nd level gains a shield bonus to AC equal to half her duelist level, plus 2.

    This bonus does not apply when the duelist is wearing medium or heavier armor or carrying a heavy load.

    Grace (Ex)
    "If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle."
    A duelist of at least 2nd level gains a +1 competence bonus to all saving throws.
    At 6th level and again at 10th level, this bonus increases by another +1.

    Burst Movement (Ex)
    "Whenever you meet difficult situations dash forward bravely and joyfully."
    A duelist of 2nd level or higher has the capability to make extremely fast movements. A number of times per day equal to (3 + her Dexterity modifier), she may move an extra 10 feet with a move action, or may take two 5-foot steps in a turn.

    You gain the bonus on Jump checks as usual for having a movement speed greater than normal (+4 for every 10 feet of movement beyond 30 feet).

    You may only use Burst Movement to increase the speed you move with a move action once per move action.

    Improved Reaction (Ex)
    A duelist of at least 3rd level adds her Intelligence modifier as an insight bonus to hit and damage when making attacks of opportunity, and to Initiative checks.
    Additionally, if she hits an opponent immune to critical hits with an attack of opportunity, she may still apply half of her Precise Strike damage to that attack.

    Burst Evasion (Ex)
    At 3rd level and higher, a duelist can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. By expending one Burst Movement use as a swift action, she may gain the Evasion ability and add her Intelligence modifier as an insight bonus to Reflex saves for 1 round per class level.

    If the duelist already has Evasion, she gains Improved Evasion for the duration instead.

    Burst Evasion can be used only if the duelist is wearing light armor or no armor.

    Improved Disarm (Ex)
    A duelist of at least 4th level gains Improved Disarm as a bonus feat. If she already has it, she may choose another bonus feat she meets the prerequisites for.

    Elaborate Defense (Ex)
    "En garde!... You'll have to do better than that."
    Whenever a duelist of at least 4th level is attacked and missed, she may make an attack of opportunity. She may only make one attack of opportunity per round in this way unless she expends one use of Burst Movement.

    If you use an attack of opportunity granted by Elaborate Defense to make a disarm attempt, you may add your Intelligence modifier to the opposed attack roll.

    Slippery Strike (Ex)
    "Pardon me, I seem to have left my knife in your chest while escaping your grapple! Terribly sorry about that."
    Whenever a duelist of at least 4th level succeeds on an Escape Artist check to break free of a grapple, she may make an attack of opportunity against that opponent.


    Advance (Ex)
    "The swordfighter reveals himself only when he gets to the arena."
    A duelist of at least 5th level may take a 5-foot step as an immediate action to follow an enemy that within her threatened area takes a 5-foot step.

    Supreme Balance (Ex)
    "They might take our lives, but they'll never take our FREEDOM!"
    A duelist of 5thlevel can take 10 on any Balance, Tumble, Climb, and Jump checks, even even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so.

    Additionally, she does not lose her Dexterity (and Intelligence) bonus to AC while balancing or climbing.

    Riposte (Ex)
    A duelist of at least 5th level has the ability to make quick counterattacks against any opponent. As a standard action, she may make an attack of opportunity against an opponent that attacked her in the last round.


    Flèche (Ex)
    "It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog."
    A duelist of at least 6th level may charge over difficult terrain, through occupied squares, or any other method needed to get to the target (though she must still succeed on appropriate checks to move over the terrain). She may also make a 90-degree turn at any point in her charge. This ability requires the expenditure of one use of Burst Movement.

    Precise strike damage is doubled on a flèche.

    Improved Parry (Ex)
    At 7th level, a duelist may choose to have her shield bonus to AC from Parry become a deflection bonus.

    Critical Strike (Ex)
    A duelist of at least 7th level may increase the critical threat range of any weapon used to make a Precise Strike by 1. This bonus is applied after any other threat-range-increasing modifiers.

    Feint-Disengage
    "Strike where your enemy is least prepared, appear where he least expects it."
    A duelist of at least 8th level may make a feint as a swift action. If the feint is successful, you may make an immediate attack of opportunity against the target.
    You may make this feint check even against unintelligent creatures, but you take a -12 penalty to your Bluff check when you do so.
    If the feint fails, you may immediately move 5 feet away (you still provoke attacks of opportunity as normal, except from the target of your feint). The movement does not prevent you from taking a 5-foot step.

    Burst Lunge (Ex)
    "You are unwise to lower your defenses!"
    Whenever a foe performs an action that would provoke an attack of opportunity within 15 feet of a duelist of 9th level or higher, that duelist may expend a Burst Movement daily use to move adjacent to the target and take an attack of opportunity.

    Greater Precise Strike (Ex)
    "If they can't finish, they can't win."
    At 10th level, all of a duelist's Precise Strike damage dice increase to d8s. Additionally, any target hit with a Precise Strike takes 1 point of Strength and Dexterity damage, and she may add her class level to damage with a Precise Strike.

    This ability damage is not doubled on a Flèche.


    <hr>


    Duelist Feats
    Extra Burst
    Prerequisites: Burst Movement class feature.
    Benefit: You gain 4 more uses of the Burst Movement class feature. Additionally, you may move an additional 5 feet when using Burst Movement to increase the distance you move with a move action.
    Special: You may take this feat more than once.

    Improved Precise Strike
    Prerequisites: Precise Strike +2d6
    Benefit: All of your Precise Strike damage dice increase to d8s.
    Special: If you have the Greater Precise Strike ability, all of your damage dice increase to d10s.

    Sniper's Precision
    Prerequisites: Sneak Attack +3d6, Sudden Strike +3d6, Precise Strike +3d6, or Skirmish +2d6/+1
    Benefit: Your precision damage now affects targets out to 60 feet or one range increment, whichever is farther.
    Last edited by Siosilvar; 2010-12-27 at 08:22 PM.
    she/her/her(s)

    Omnia Vincit Amor

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    GnomePirate

    Join Date
    Apr 2010

    Default Re: "You seem a decent fellow... I hate to kill you." [3.5 Duelist Fix]

    Does Precision damage apply to all iterative attacks?

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Temotei's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Minnesota
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: "You seem a decent fellow... I hate to kill you." [3.5 Duelist Fix]

    Quote Originally Posted by Saveducks View Post
    Does Precision damage apply to all iterative attacks?
    It does. That means that at level 10, you can do a whole lot of Strength and Dexterity damage per round. Melee monsters beware!

    I rather like most of your changes, but I've not looked thoroughly enough to actually critique it honestly.

    Like I said, though, I like most of the changes.
    Base Class Contest XXXXVII - Time is on Our Side (Yes it is)
    Chat Thread
    Contest Closes May 24th

    Homebrew
    Please feel free to PM me any thoughts on my homebrew (or comment in the thread if it's not too old).

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    PairO'Dice Lost's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Malsheem, Nessus
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: "You seem a decent fellow... I hate to kill you." [3.5 Duelist Fix]

    The only thing I'd change would be making Elaborate Defense consume 1 Burst for any number of extra AoOs, rather than 1 per AoO; if you're being missed a lot, you're most likely being attacked by lots of mooks, and (A) that's the kind of situation where a flashy fencer type should excel and (B) having to use up all your Bursts to kill mooks more quickly is an excessive penalty.

    Otherwise, looks good.
    Better to DM in Baator than play in Celestia
    You can just call me Dice; that's how I roll.


    Spoiler: Sig of Holding
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by abadguy View Post
    Darn you PoDL for making me care about a bunch of NPC Commoners!
    Quote Originally Posted by Chambers View Post
    I'm pretty sure turning Waterdeep into a sheet of glass wasn't the best win condition for that fight. We lived though!
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'DiceLost View Post
    <Snip>
    Where are my Like, Love, and Want to Have Your Manchildren (Totally Homo) buttons for this post?
    Won a cookie for this, won everything for this

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Troll in the Playground
     
    jiriku's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2009

    Default Re: "You seem a decent fellow... I hate to kill you." [3.5 Duelist Fix]

    It's definitely a massive improvement on the original duelist, but to my way of thinking it still lacks oomph. Don't get me wrong, burst evasion, fleche, and advance make it a little easier to threaten the all-powerful casters, but you're still bringing a BB rifle to an artillery contest. NEEDS MOAR DAKKA!

    A couple of observations: Parry would be better if it was a dodge bonus or an untyped bonus, so it would apply against touch attacks. Improved Parry would be better if it was anything other than deflection, so that it would stack with the ring of protection that every adventurer carries by that level. The parry bonus is also a little excessive. I'd recommend a bonus no larger than half the class level. More than that, and the disparity between the AC of you and your party starts to become a balance issue.

    Improved Disarm is weak for the level at which it's granted. Swap it with Burst Evasion or Improved Reaction.

    Burst Lunge needs more precise wording. Whenever a foe provokes one from anyone, or only from you? Normally, I'd expect you mean the latter, but that's pretty weak, because it takes a specific sort of build to have a 20 foot threat range, and you'd need to threaten that much to take full advantage of the ability.

    Extra Burst looks fine to me. If you're worried about the bonus movement, have that part unlock once the character has the fleche or supreme balance feature.

    Greater Precise Strike: EVERYONE deals ridiculous damage at level 15. Seriously, I've seen (and played) 15th-level characters that deal upwards of 300 damage per round if all their attacks land. Honestly, though, this class already deals more damage than it really has a use for, so if this damage makes you nervous, scrap the +10 bonus and use the juice to add some other sort of ability that's more relevant.

    Feint-Disengage is a little too powerful for its level. Move it up to level 7 or 8 and it's fine.

    Supreme Balance is trivial. Throw in the ability to Take 10 on Climb and Jump checks too, and specify that you retain your Dex to AC when balancing and climbing. That starts to make it more interesting.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2010-06-05 at 01:56 AM.
    Subclasses for 5E: magus of blades, shadowcraft assassin, spellthief, void disciple
    Guides for 5E: Practical fiend-binding

    D&D Remix for 3.x: balanced base classes and feats, all in the authentic flavor of the originals. Most popular: monk and fighter.


  6. - Top - End - #6
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Siosilvar's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    USA
    Gender
    Male2Female

    Default Re: "You seem a decent fellow... I hate to kill you." [3.5 Duelist Fix]

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    A couple of observations: Parry would be better if it was a dodge bonus or an untyped bonus, so it would apply against touch attacks. Improved Parry would be better if it was anything other than deflection, so that it would stack with the ring of protection that every adventurer carries by that level. The parry bonus is also a little excessive. I'd recommend a bonus no larger than half the class level. More than that, and the disparity between the AC of you and your party starts to become a balance issue.
    The original was a dodge bonus equal to your entire class level. I'm pretty sure half + 2 is fine. Even with the addition of light armor, it's not too big of a boost.

    Actually, the point of not being dodge or untyped is so that it doesn't apply to touch attacks. Improved Parry does.

    Burst Lunge needs more precise wording. Whenever a foe provokes one from anyone, or only from you? Normally, I'd expect you mean the latter, but that's pretty weak, because it takes a specific sort of build to have a 20 foot threat range, and you'd need to threaten that much to take full advantage of the ability.
    The former. Which was why I was considering shortening the range a bit.

    Greater Precise Strike: EVERYONE deals ridiculous damage at level 15. Seriously, I've seen (and played) 15th-level characters that deal upwards of 300 damage per round if all their attacks land. Honestly, though, this class already deals more damage than it really has a use for, so if this damage makes you nervous, scrap the +10 bonus and use the juice to add some other sort of ability that's more relevant.
    True, everyone does deal ridiculous damage. (Oh, and it's technically level 16.) It's really the ability damage that I think is key here. You need some way to keep up with 8th-level spells.

    Changes already made (in spoiler)
    Spoiler
    Show
    Improved Disarm is weak for the level at which it's granted. Swap it with Burst Evasion or Improved Reaction.
    Hrm... would granting a +2 bonus on Disarm checks made with Elaborate Defense's AoOs work?

    Feint-Disengage is a little too powerful for its level. Move it up to level 7 or 8 and it's fine.
    Yeah, that's what I thought. I don't think it really fits at level 8, though I'll switch the two and see how it works.

    Supreme Balance is trivial. Throw in the ability to Take 10 on Climb and Jump checks too, and specify that you retain your Dex to AC when balancing and climbing. That starts to make it more interesting.
    The point was to be trivial. I thought 8th wasn't rounded enough. But those are some good ideas. Forgot balancing made you lose Dex. That'll put a hole in the day of anyone taking this class.

    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost
    The only thing I'd change would be making Elaborate Defense consume 1 Burst for any number of extra AoOs, rather than 1 per AoO; if you're being missed a lot, you're most likely being attacked by lots of mooks, and (A) that's the kind of situation where a flashy fencer type should excel and (B) having to use up all your Bursts to kill mooks more quickly is an excessive penalty.

    Otherwise, looks good.
    That is true. Will change.
    Last edited by Siosilvar; 2010-06-05 at 11:34 AM.
    she/her/her(s)

    Omnia Vincit Amor

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Arizona
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: "You seem a decent fellow... I hate to kill you." [3.5 Duelist Fix]

    No weapon proficiencies? Why not give 'proficiency with all light and one-handed simple and martial weapons' or something so multiclassing in from a limited proficiencies class doesn't hurt tremendously? Just a quick suggestion, otherwise it looks pretty cool.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Troll in the Playground
     
    jiriku's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2009

    Default Re: "You seem a decent fellow... I hate to kill you." [3.5 Duelist Fix]

    Quote Originally Posted by Siosilvar View Post
    1. Regarding Parry and Improved Parry: Actually, the point of not being dodge or untyped is so that it doesn't apply to touch attacks. Improved Parry does.

    2. Regarding Burst Lunge: The former. Which was why I was considering shortening the range a bit.

    3. Regarding Improved Disarm: Hrm... would granting a +2 bonus on Disarm checks made with Elaborate Defense's AoOs work?
    1. OK, good point.

    2. OK, then this is a good solid ability. Since targets don't know you can hit them, you'll surprise casters who thought they were safe.

    3. Yeah, that's reasonable, and it creates synergy between the two mechanics, which is good design.

    Overall, it's a nasty skirmisher and the swift- and immediate-action abilities makes it a dynamic combatant. My fear is that the duelist's player may feel left out of the action in some encounters. Just to get you thinking, consider how the duelist would contribute in any of the following encounters:

    • An elder black pudding (immune to crits, 20 ft reach, divides when dealt slashing or piercing damage, nasty grapple bonus)
    • A team of bone devils (at-will invisibility, fly, teleport, and wall of ice)
    • A stone golem (immune to crits, DR, has reach, slows opponents)
    • An erinyes (flying archer with at-will teleport and an entangling rope with a 30 ft range)


    The duelist might struggle to close with some opponents (the flying teleporters) or struggle to deal damage to others (the ones that are immune to crits and can deny actions).
    Subclasses for 5E: magus of blades, shadowcraft assassin, spellthief, void disciple
    Guides for 5E: Practical fiend-binding

    D&D Remix for 3.x: balanced base classes and feats, all in the authentic flavor of the originals. Most popular: monk and fighter.


  9. - Top - End - #9
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Siosilvar's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    USA
    Gender
    Male2Female

    Default Re: "You seem a decent fellow... I hate to kill you." [3.5 Duelist Fix]

    Quote Originally Posted by Binks View Post
    No weapon proficiencies? Why not give 'proficiency with all light and one-handed simple and martial weapons' or something so multiclassing in from a limited proficiencies class doesn't hurt tremendously? Just a quick suggestion, otherwise it looks pretty cool.
    The only things I can think of that would want to multiclass in that don't already have proficiency are a Carmendine Monk 7 (don't need proficiencies; unarmed strikes are light weapons) and a high-int caster (for the AC boost; not going to use a weapon anyway).

    Everybody else is probably going to have some levels of Rogue, Ranger, Fighter, Swashbuckler, or similar class and will have all the proficiencies you need.

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    Overall, it's a nasty skirmisher and the swift- and immediate-action abilities makes it a dynamic combatant. My fear is that the duelist's player may feel left out of the action in some encounters. Just to get you thinking, consider how the duelist would contribute in any of the following encounters:
    [encounters snipped]
    Immunity to crits first: I was toying around with adding an ability that lets you deal half damage to these sorts of things.

    Reach: could be a problem; burst lunge and flèche don't come into play until halfway through the class, but burst movement will let you close 40 feet with a move action (50 foot if you try an entry with Monk, non-pounce Barbarian, or Scout), or 10 feet without. That will burn through uses very quickly, though. And tumble is a class skill, in case you haven't made 10th level yet.

    Flight and teleportation: as with all precision damage, precise strike is limited to 30 feet. Having range isn't the problem (it'll work with crossbows and thrown weapons), but relevance at range is... Especially if you focus on melee. Feats to the rescue!

    Grapple checks and the erinyes' rope: You've got Escape Artist for a reason. I'm thinking of adding a free attack after making a successful Escape Artist check somewhere, too.

    SUMMARY of planned additions / additions for review:
    • Half damage to things immune to crits. I could've sworn I added this into Greater Precise Strike, but it's not there.
      • Along with that, maybe make this only work on attacks of opportunity, and add an ability to declare one attack an attack of opportunity?
    • Feat to increase the range of Precise Strike (possibly extending to all precision damage?).
    • Ability to make a free attack after a successful Escape Artist check.
    • Adding in a note saying "Yes, Burst Movement gives you a +4 bonus on Jump checks."
    • Adding in a note specifying what ranged weapons can be used with Precise Strike. Or, just making a "Playing a Duelist" guide.
    she/her/her(s)

    Omnia Vincit Amor

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Troll in the Playground
     
    jiriku's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2009

    Default Re: "You seem a decent fellow... I hate to kill you." [3.5 Duelist Fix]

    Quote Originally Posted by Siosilvar View Post
    SUMMARY of planned additions / additions for review:
    • Half damage to things immune to crits. I could've sworn I added this into Greater Precise Strike, but it's not there.
      • Along with that, maybe make this only work on attacks of opportunity, and add an ability to declare one attack an attack of opportunity?
    • Feat to increase the range of Precise Strike (possibly extending to all precision damage?).
    • Ability to make a free attack after a successful Escape Artist check.
    • Adding in a note saying "Yes, Burst Movement gives you a +4 bonus on Jump checks."
    • Adding in a note specifying what ranged weapons can be used with Precise Strike. Or, just making a "Playing a Duelist" guide.
    Anything that gives the duelist something to do against crit-immune foes is good, but it should work on his regular attacks, otherwise he's just standing around in the enemy threatened zone waiting for an AoO to break his way.

    +1 to the idea of a feat increasing the range at which precision damage can be delivered!

    Free attack after successful escape artist check? I like it! "Pardon me, I seem to have left my knife in your chest while escaping your grapple! Terribly sorry about that."

    Extra description making the class more user-friendly - definitely good.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2010-06-05 at 01:53 PM.
    Subclasses for 5E: magus of blades, shadowcraft assassin, spellthief, void disciple
    Guides for 5E: Practical fiend-binding

    D&D Remix for 3.x: balanced base classes and feats, all in the authentic flavor of the originals. Most popular: monk and fighter.


  11. - Top - End - #11
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Siosilvar's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    USA
    Gender
    Male2Female

    Default Re: "You seem a decent fellow... I hate to kill you." [3.5 Duelist Fix]

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    Free attack after successful escape artist check? I like it! "Pardon me, I seem to have left my knife in your chest while escaping your grapple! Terribly sorry about that."
    I am using that quote.


    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    Anything that gives the duelist something to do against crit-immune foes is good, but it should work on his regular attacks, otherwise he's just standing around in the enemy threatened zone waiting for an AoO to break his way.
    Which is why I added the "ability to declare an attack as an attack of opportunity" qualifier on that. You're MUCH less effective (have to have a weakness somewhere!) but you can still do things on your turn.

    Against a crit-immune foe, I see the duelist's turn (assuming no fancy tricks or anything) going like this:

    Move up (possibly including burst move).

    Swift action feint. Most crit-immunes are unintelligent, so it should be an auto-success (no Sense Motive bonus!); except, of course, you can't feint against an unintelligent being. Aargh.
    Come to think of it, though... oh, there's an idea...

    Make an AoO as a standard action.
    Last edited by Siosilvar; 2010-06-05 at 02:04 PM.
    she/her/her(s)

    Omnia Vincit Amor

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Siosilvar's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    USA
    Gender
    Male2Female

    Default Re: "You seem a decent fellow... I hate to kill you." [3.5 Duelist Fix]

    The Swordfight - Playing A Duelist
    Preparation
    Your two highest stats are going to be Intelligence and Dexterity, no questions asked. Dexterity will be your primary attack statistic, and you'll be able to add your Intelligence bonus to almost everything important not far into the class.

    Wisdom is useful for shoring up your likely low Will save, and Constitution is always great for someone who's going to be in or near the front line at all times.

    Strength is less useful, given that you can replace its whole effect on your attacks with Dexterity and the abundance of Bags of Holding.

    Charisma is perhaps the least useful statistic for a Duelist, because they don't have the social skills or the stats to go around.

    In order of priority:
    Dexterity > Intelligence > (Constitution = Wisdom) > Strength > Charisma

    If you don't have Dexterity and Intelligence of at least 13 each, I question how you intend to meet the prerequisites for the class.

    Entering the Class
    The Duelist has some pretty lenient requirements - two feats and a few skills. However, most of the classes that would benefit greatly from taking a few levels of Duelist only have two of the three skills as class skills - try and make that extra skill Balance or Bluff, or you're going to be delayed in entry.

    Using Monk
    Monk, as a medium-BAB class, delays entry until 7th level at the earliest. The most important question when using monk is "How many levels am I going to take?"
    1. A single-level dip in Monk gets you Wisdom to AC, a free 1d6 weapon, a good bonus to saves (especially that poor, poor Will save), and a bonus feat. Monk has Balance and Tumble as class skills, so sink 4 points into each and you're close to meeting the requirements.

      Variant Fighting Styles from UA are good to look into: They can replace some of the bonus feats available for Monk with one of the requirements for Duelist, freeing up a feat slot for you.
    2. Two levels in Monk gets you another feat and Evasion. With the high Reflex save you'll no doubt have due to the good progression from Duelist and your high Dexterity, you'll be good to go if you get a Fireball dropped on you.
    3. Three levels in Monk snags an easy +2 bonus against Enchantment spells, which are some of the Will saves you'll need to make. You also get a +10ft bonus to your movement speed, which makes you much more mobile on the battlefield.
    4. Four levels in Monk (which some would say is four too many) increases your saves again. Your unarmed strike increases to 1d8 damage and counts as magic for piercing damage reduction, which is always useful. And your falls are 20 feet shorter, which isn't the most useful of things, but could save your life at some point.


    Using Ranger
    Ranger has NONE of the skills as class skills, but you weren't trying to get those with Ranger anyway. No, you're here for the free feat at second level - Two-Weapon Fighting or Rapid Shot (both of which are perfectly valid ways to play a Duelist).

    Using Fighter
    People say Fighter is a two-level class, and for good reason: You get two feats at each of those levels. That is the extent of the benefits. Get in, get out, get on your way.

    Using Barbarian
    Surprisingly, Barbarian makes a good fit for a Duelist, with high hit points and a way to shore up those Will saves, but remember that Raging takes away your Combat Expertise, and thus your high AC via Parry. You should still be able to fight defensively, though, which will save you.

    1. One level of Barbarian nets you either a +10 bonus to speed (mobility is always good) or Pounce, which lets you full attack on a charge (which you'll probably be making a lot of with Fleche).
    2. Two levels of Barbarian gives you Uncanny Dodge to bump up your flat-footed AC, one of the weaknesses of being a Duelist.


    Using Rogue
    Rogue is an excellent class to supplement the Duelist's abilities. All of the skills required to be a good Duelist are class skills, and you get some extra precision damage that your high mobility lets you use nine times out of ten.
    1. One level of Rogue gives you +1d6 Sneak Attack, which, importantly, works while flanking or after a feint. Duelists have plenty of ways to do both of these.
    2. Two levels of Rogue give you Evasion, another good thing to have with a high Reflex save and which Burst Evasion can bump up to Improved Evasion.
    3. Three levels of Rogue adds another +1d6 to your Sneak Attack.
    4. Four levels of Rogue gives you Uncanny Dodge, which helps defend against flat-footedness, one of the most deadly conditions a Duelist can be under.


    Non-core Classes
    Swashbuckler: Is full base attack bonus, has all of the skills required, and gets one of the feats for free. It's almost like they were made to go together.
    Warblade: Have both Tumble and Balance as class skills, full base attack, and plenty of neat tricks to use. Most of the time, however, you'll only be getting one attack off, so Precise Strike isn't as effective as it could be, but choosing flexible and diverse maneuvers will make you shine.
    Factotum: Or so I've heard. All skills is nice, as is plenty of uses for your Intelligence bonus (Int to X, where X is a d20 roll).
    Scout: Plenty of mobility is always a good thing, especially when you get bonuses for using that mobility. Balance and Tumble are class skills fro this Medium-BAB class.

    Playing a Duelist
    Weaknesses of a Duelist
    • Your Will save is going to be low. Only two of the classes mentioned above have good Will saves, and they're probably the least likely classes for you to take.
    • Beware of being caught flat-footed. Although you will have a good Initiative bonus, almost all of your AC depends on being able to respond to the attack.
    • Grapples are dangerous, especially for low-Strength characters. Invest heavily in Escape Artist.
    • Enemies that are immune to critical hits will be problematic, given you have a maximum of three attacks per round you can hit with, all of those will deal half damage, and only one you're guaranteed to be able to make.


    Ability Synergies, Useful Combos, and Things to Remember
    • Slippery Strike, Elaborate Defense, Riposte, and Feint-Disengage all let you make attacks of opportunity. Improved Reaction gives you bonuses with attacks of opportunity. If you meet the conditions for Elaborate Defense, you meet the conditions for Riposte.
    • Taking the feat Fleet of Foot (requires Dex 15 and Run, see Complete Warrior) and using a Fleche lets you charge the same opponent every turn. Move ten feet perpendicular to your opponent, take a 90 degree turn, move ten feet, take a 90 degree turn, and end up next to your opponent on the other side. If you set it up right with an ally, you're also now flanking your opponent.
    • Unarmed strikes are light weapons. Combine this with Greater Precise Strike, and unleash a Flurry of Blows for plenty of Strength and Dexterity damage.
    • Precise Strike can be used with thrown weapons. Three levels of Master Thrower (if you meet the requirements, see Complete Warrior) and with Doubletoss and Palm Throw, you can throw four weapons as a standard action, dealing "Terrible, terrible damage." If you just happen to have Greater Precise Strike, that's 4 points of Strength damage and 4 points of Dexterity damage in one turn.
    • PUT POINTS IN ESCAPE ARTIST. If you're ever grappled, you'll thank me. Taking Close-Quarters Fighting gives you another attack of opportunity, one that, with the damage bonuses from Precise Strike, should be able to break a grapple.
    • Don't forget to use your swift action. Burst Evasion, Advance, and Feint-Disengage all use a swift or immediate action.
    • Parry is a shield bonus. After level 7, it becomes a deflection bonus. Even while it's a shield bonus, carrying an Arrow Catcher shield lets you use your (ideally ridiculous) AC to defend anyone you happen to be standing next to.


    Equipment Suggestions
    • Things that give Haste or the like are good for extra attacks. I hear good things about a Belt of Battle or three.
    • Don't forget to get some method of dealing with flying creatures and some way to see invisible things. You'll thank me for this reminder later.
    • A mithril breastplate is light armor and gives you a +5 bonus to AC in exchange for taking a -1 to all of those skills you put max ranks in. It's worth the trade, trust me.
    • Likewise, a darkwood heavy shield is a cheap way to get shield enhancements (like Fortification) with no drawback. And it gives you an AC bonus after getting Improved Parry or while flatfooted.
    • Put spikes on that shield and enchant it to be Bashing and you've got a one-handed weapon that deals 2d6 damage. Sadly, it does not benefit from Weapon Finesse, but it does get Precise Strike damage.
    • Carry something from each damage type; Precise Strike will work with all of them. Including your fists, if need be.
    Last edited by Siosilvar; 2010-06-06 at 05:33 PM.
    she/her/her(s)

    Omnia Vincit Amor

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Mulletmanalive's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    WOTC ≱ my opinion

    Default Re: "You seem a decent fellow... I hate to kill you." [3.5 Duelist Fix]

    I like this. A usable, interesting class revamp that hasn't just had the original picked up and a TOB progression clumsily shoehorned in.

    I may actually use this class in play. Probably actually.

    I'm actually a little lost for words.

    Well done.

    P.S. Finally, someone had the nouse to change the Elabourate Parry into something useful. I've been saying for years that it would work fine, if only it were put at first level...
    Mine is not so much a Peter Pan Complex as a Peter Pan Doom Fortress and Underground LairTM!
    Fae-o-matic Want a fae from folklore stated? Give me the lore and I'll do it for you!
    Le Cirque Funeste Evil Fairy Circus! Ray Bradbury, refined down to snortable powder!

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lix Lorn's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Usaki City, Syona
    Gender
    Male2Female

    Default Re: "You seem a decent fellow... I hate to kill you." [3.5 Duelist Fix]

    I love Duelists! Also Inigo!
    Looks very good from what I can see. (nods)
    Recent Homebrew: The Socialite | The Crystalline: Memory Altering Construct Race | Sanguine Hand, a ToB Discipline of blood and cruelty
    Homebrew Signature | NEW Homebrew Collection
    Thanks to all my avatar artists, especially to Paisley for my avatar of Vivian, cowardly cryophoenix.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    It's like the feng shui version of an orbital death laser.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2009

    Default Re: "You seem a decent fellow... I hate to kill you." [3.5 Duelist Fix]

    I love this and would play it given a chance.

    Two other classes that work well for entering or just synergy:

    1) Factotum -- medium BAB, but the real draw here is being able to throw around your massive INT bonus as if it were candy. You can take able learner and be a combination fencer and skillmonkey.

    2) Warblade -- good BAB, d12 hit die, useful and flavorful maneuvers, and good INT synergy.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Siosilvar's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    USA
    Gender
    Male2Female

    Default Re: "You seem a decent fellow... I hate to kill you." [3.5 Duelist Fix]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletmanalive View Post
    P.S. Finally, someone had the nouse to change the Elabourate Parry into something useful. I've been saying for years that it would work fine, if only it were put at first level...
    ...nouse? I'm not familiar with that term...

    Added Warblade, Factotum, and Scout to the non-core classes section.


    From what you've been saying, it looks like the PrC hit the sweet spot of being useful without being shoehorned into one specific path; that's good, because I've run out of ideas for things to add.

    If anybody does end up playing one, I'd love to hear your experiences.
    she/her/her(s)

    Omnia Vincit Amor

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Starbuck_II's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Enterprise, Alabama
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: "You seem a decent fellow... I hate to kill you." [3.5 Duelist Fix]

    I like it.

    Much better than 3.5 Duelist and it seems balanced (though only glanced at it for that).

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2010

    Default Re: "You seem a decent fellow... I hate to kill you." [3.5 Duelist Fix]

    I'm actually running a character (either a Swashbuckler/Carmendine Monk or Fighter) that I was planning on making a Duelist. The duelist/swashbuckling archetype is one of my personal favorites.

    I think I'm going to have to convince my DM to use this class, but that shouldn't be too much of a problem. It's solid but not overpowered, and has plenty of flavor.
    Last edited by TehDuke; 2010-06-06 at 08:41 PM.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Devil

    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: "You seem a decent fellow... I hate to kill you." [3.5 Duelist Fix]

    This reminds me of the dashing swordsmen prestige class class! LOL
    Last edited by bocray; 2010-06-07 at 01:00 AM.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2008

    Default Re: "You seem a decent fellow... I hate to kill you." [3.5 Duelist Fix]

    I don't exactly get the value of the Riposte ability.

    As a standard action, you make an AoO against an opponent who attacked you last turn...so...you're using a standard action to make an attack with restricted targeting, that also qualifies as AoO(and thus benefits from AoO-related feats).

    That seems quite weak to me...and quite useless...did I miss anything about the Duelist that makes AoOs awesome?

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Siosilvar's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    USA
    Gender
    Male2Female

    Default Re: "You seem a decent fellow... I hate to kill you." [3.5 Duelist Fix]

    Quote Originally Posted by Aldgar View Post
    I don't exactly get the value of the Riposte ability.

    As a standard action, you make an AoO against an opponent who attacked you last turn...so...you're using a standard action to make an attack with restricted targeting, that also qualifies as AoO(and thus benefits from AoO-related feats).

    That seems quite weak to me...and quite useless...did I miss anything about the Duelist that makes AoOs awesome?
    +Int to attack and damage, half of your Precise Strike damage to targets that would otherwise be immune.
    she/her/her(s)

    Omnia Vincit Amor

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Imp

    Join Date
    May 2010

    Default Re: "You seem a decent fellow... I hate to kill you." [3.5 Duelist Fix]

    Love what you've done with the class. I was wondering if you could clarify the intention of the Advance ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Siosilvar View Post
    Advance (Ex)
    "The swordfighter reveals himself only when he gets to the arena."
    A duelist of at least 5th level may take a 5-foot step as an immediate action to follow an enemy that within her threatened area takes a 5-foot step.
    I have issues with combining 5-foot steps with immediate and swift actions, not to mention how valuable swift actions can be, is it really worth it?
    Also I'm also not sure if this can be used the same round I already made a 5-foot step/move action or if it prevents me from doing either movement next turn.

    If it doesn't count against movement for the turn, this could be a 'free' 5-foot step so that we know it doesn't count. Otherwise it would be good to let us know in the wording if we can't move the turn after using this ability.

    Only abuse with free 5-foot steps would be it requires a 5-foot step to activate and creates a 5-foot step, so two rival duelists could 5-foot step around the world in a single round(assuming they never left eachother's threat range).

    What counts as following? Does my opponent have to 5-foot step away from me (out of my threatened area) so that I may advance? What if they adjust to a better flanking position with a 5-foot step, should I be allowed to move away from the opponent before they attack or to an adjacent square?

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Cute_Riolu's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2007

    Default Re: "You seem a decent fellow... I hate to kill you." [3.5 Duelist Fix]

    Quote Originally Posted by Siosilvar View Post
    Improved Parry (Ex)
    At 7th level, a duelist's shield bonus to AC from Parry becomes a deflection bonus.
    This may, in fact, turn out to weaken a character... If they had a deflection bonus already, it would likely supersede that, actually lowering their AC. I'd suggest making the shield bonus apply to their touch AC, or making it stack automatically.

    Good class, though! I like it!
    Formerly known as Cariyaga.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Temotei's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Minnesota
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: "You seem a decent fellow... I hate to kill you." [3.5 Duelist Fix]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cute_Riolu View Post
    This may, in fact, turn out to weaken a character... If they had a deflection bonus already, it would likely supersede that, actually lowering their AC. I'd suggest making the shield bonus apply to their touch AC, or making it stack automatically.

    Good class, though! I like it!
    The bonuses don't stack, but the higher one always applies.
    Base Class Contest XXXXVII - Time is on Our Side (Yes it is)
    Chat Thread
    Contest Closes May 24th

    Homebrew
    Please feel free to PM me any thoughts on my homebrew (or comment in the thread if it's not too old).

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Cute_Riolu's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2007

    Default Re: "You seem a decent fellow... I hate to kill you." [3.5 Duelist Fix]

    Quote Originally Posted by Temotei221 View Post
    The bonuses don't stack, but the higher one always applies.
    Exactly. Shield Bonus + Deflection Bonus versus Deflection Bonus at Shield Bonus's value.
    Formerly known as Cariyaga.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Temotei's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Minnesota
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: "You seem a decent fellow... I hate to kill you." [3.5 Duelist Fix]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cute_Riolu View Post
    Exactly. Shield Bonus + Deflection Bonus versus Deflection Bonus at Shield Bonus's value.
    Whoops. I read the ability description wrong.

    I read it as the shield bonus applying to your AC again as a deflection bonus. My bad.
    Base Class Contest XXXXVII - Time is on Our Side (Yes it is)
    Chat Thread
    Contest Closes May 24th

    Homebrew
    Please feel free to PM me any thoughts on my homebrew (or comment in the thread if it's not too old).

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Siosilvar's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    USA
    Gender
    Male2Female

    Default Re: "You seem a decent fellow... I hate to kill you." [3.5 Duelist Fix]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cute_Riolu View Post
    This may, in fact, turn out to weaken a character... If they had a deflection bonus already, it would likely supersede that, actually lowering their AC. I'd suggest making the shield bonus apply to their touch AC, or making it stack automatically.

    Good class, though! I like it!
    I don't know how many deflection bonuses you're going to get that are above +5, but I see your point.

    I'll add a "may choose" in there.
    she/her/her(s)

    Omnia Vincit Amor

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •