MitD III: You are likely to suggest Tarrasque

[lost_my_NHL]

I'm not going to argue about the rest of your post, but epic does not mean here what you think it means.

I am aware. I thought that the convolution of the two meanings would be particularly clever on Rich's part.

It would be sort of in the same vein as: "Spell level. L-E-V-E-L"

[chionophile]

I am aware. I thought that the convolution of the two meanings would be particularly clever on Rich's part.

It would be sort of in the same vein as: "Spell level. L-E-V-E-L"

Ah. My apologies, then.

[Geigan]

I've got an imperfect guess as to the teleporting in the escape scene. There's a spell in Magic of Faerun called Mass Teleport.

Pros:
-Can teleport others(100 lbs. per caster lvl)
-Caster does not have to go along with those teleported

Cons:
-Same problem of having to touch those he's teleporting(though considering how teleport has worked in the past with caster's not touching those they want to teleport, I think this isn't such a big deal)
-Subjects must be willing for them to be teleported, though a case can be argued that they probably were considering the circumstances of meteor swarm, though they were still confused as to why.


Though I believe that wish may be a better alternative considering him wishing they were safe makes more sense to me. I just thought I'd give that alternative as wish is hard to come by especially as a spell-like ability.

[lothos]

I've got an imperfect guess as to the teleporting in the escape scene. There's a spell in Magic of Faerun called Mass Teleport.

Pros:
-Can teleport others(100 lbs. per caster lvl)
-Caster does not have to go along with those teleported

Cons:
-Same problem of having to touch those he's teleporting(though considering how teleport has worked in the past with caster's not touching those they want to teleport, I think this isn't such a big deal)
-Subjects must be willing for them to be teleported, though a case can be argued that they probably were considering the circumstances of meteor swarm, though they were still confused as to why.


Though I believe that wish may be a better alternative considering him wishing they were safe makes more sense to me. I just thought I'd give that alternative as wish is hard to come by especially as a spell-like ability.

I was unaware of that spell from Faerun. I've never had an opportunity to read the materials for that setting.

Regarding the Teleport, It's true that spell requirements like caster not touching people isn't 100% rigorously applied in the comic. I think it's things like "Rule of Funny" and also bending rules slightly to accommodate the style of the art and the needs of the plot.

But regarding using the lack of MitD travelling with V and O'Chul - I'm not certain if this is rule bending for "regular" teleport or not. My feeling is that MitD not going along is meant as a clue from Rich, a very deliberate act that was carefully put in to the comic.

Rich knows his audience. He knows there are a whole bunch of people in this thread and elsewhere who are scrutinising his every word and every frame of every comic to try and figure out the identity of MitD. Rich says he has known what MitD is since about Strip 100 (refer to the first post of this thread for Grey Wolf's summary).

This isn't to suggest Rich writes the comic just for the regulars in this thread :-) However I think that he is always thinking of how his audience will receive each strip, bearing in mind a sizable fraction of that audience are experienced D&D players.

The thing is, at the time that Rich wrote strip 661, he not only knew exactly what MitD was, but he knew people would pour over that strip, dissect it and discuss it ad-nauseum to debate what this told us about MitD. My feeling is that based on Rich's knowledge of how that strip would be received, he would have been extremely careful about bending rules there.

It's possible Rich thought "Ahhh, it's teleport but I'll let him not touch those 2 guys and also I'll let him not travel too", but that doesn't fit with what I perceive to be a very careful method of crafting the story that Rich employs.

Also, as you quite correctly said, the number of creatures with Wish is pretty small compared to those with teleport. This goes not only for spell like abilities, but also as a spell (say from Sorcerer levels). A few months back I spent some time searching for creatures with a high challange rating (20+) that either had wish as a spell like ability or had 18+ Sorcerer levels (see this post for why I consider cleric, druid, wizard and other class levels to be less likely to be a source of wish / miracle than Sorcerer levels).

Since I only had limited time, I focused on looking for that smaller subset of creatures, rather than including all with Teleport. I considered them to be better candidates, using the reasoning above. This does not prove it's wish, it's just stating how my research method proceeded.

If I had lots more time, I'd look at all monsters with say a CR of 15+ and the ability to cast almost any spell capable of transporting creatures over long distances.... with the possible exception of things like "Tree Stride". For a full discussion on the pros and cons of each teleport method, refer to section 1b of the first post of this thread.

[Lord Bingo]

After reading the post about Mass Teleport I got out my Monsters of Faerun book. Except for the dragons there is no monster in there above CR 14.

As for the touch requirement of Teleport spells, it is possible to deliver touch spells at range with the 1st level spell Mage Hand. Personally I am not a fan of any theory that would suggest that the MitD has class level -even if it was just one or two, but I imagine there are creatures that have a similar ability to deliver touch spells at range.

I am, however, inclined to believe (and I hope) that Rich writes and draws whatever he wants however he wants with little or no regard for his audience's tendency to dissect every panel and every word ad infinitum. In this comic Teleport spells have never been shown to require that the caster touch the subjects of the spell and I think the same would be the case if a variation of the spell Teleport is indeed what the MitD used. I still find Wish or Miracle to be more likely.

[Lord Bingo]

During my most recent foray into googling any and every word or set of words that might describe the MitD's abilities I came across Reality Warping. Please forgive this lengthy quote from wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality_warping), but I find it very compelling. I bolded the passages that I think most alludes to the MitD's role in the comic.

Reality warping is a superpower in superhero fiction. It is the ability to reshape matter and energy, create or alter life forms, turn a person's thoughts or desires into reality, simulate any and all other powers and abilities, bend time and space, and possibly even rewrite the laws of physics.
All things are possible for a reality-warper, making them seem omnipotent with the only limit on reality warping is the users imagination. The Joker, wielding the power of Mr. Mxyzptlk as "Emperor Joker", was even able to rewrite logic itself, for example, making the whole world believe that 2 + 2 equals "fish".
Some of the most extreme reality warpers, like Mxyzptlk and James Jaspers, are not even limited by their own physical bodies and can alter their own stature and appearance at will to become whatever they want to be, no matter how bizarre it might be. In DC comics, the fifth-dimensional imps that sometimes visit the DC universe, of which Mxyzptlk is the most common and well-known, seem to be the most common and also the most powerful reality warpers[citation needed].
Rarely in fiction are reality warpers depicted as heroic or benign. Reality warpers in fiction are almost always antagonists, villains or otherwise depicted as dangerous. This generally is a necessity of the plot; a reality-warping protagonist would face few, if any, true challenges. Reality warpers exhibiting a childlike (such as Anthony Fremont) or insane personality (like Proteus or Mad Jim Jaspers) are also common. Often, in the few cases of protagonists having such power, they have difficulty using it: in Ben 10: Alien Force, the hero, Ben Tennyson, can transform into a powerful alien form dubbed "Alien X" (also stated as the most powerful force in the universe), who has reality-warping powers but also contains two other distinct and powerful personalities which must agree to any action before it can be done. The two personalities are completely opposed to one another and have been arguing for an eternity; this makes the form and its powers virtually useless to such a level that Alien X can't even communicate to the outside world: to others, Alien X is little more than an immobile statue.
Another typical theme in fiction is for the protagonist to be granted this ability and then struggle to resist abusing the power for their own personal benefit. Reality warpers are also commonly affected by their subconscious minds, which cause reality to change against their will (like Magician of Ultimate X-Men or Doctor Doom with the Beyonder's power).
A common issue with characters with the ability to warp reality is that they may not be aware of their talent, and, having less conscious wishes, rarely manifest their powers (as in The Man with the Power). Often, excessive want and distress causes them to become threats to themselves and those around them so that the supporting characters must attempt to mollify the situation so that the reality warper doesn't cause any major damage or discover their power (like Haruhi Suzumiya).
In cartoons, the effects of reality warping are often shown to be temporary. For example, in Superman: The Animated Series, reality returns to normal after Mr. Mxyzptlk is tricked into going back to his dimension.
It is important not to confuse reality warping and matter manipulation. Characters like Vulcan, Mister M and the Silver Surfer can change and manipulate matter, but they cannot alter the fabric of reality itself.

IMO this could very well be the MitD's power. It fits MitD's childlike personality as well as him being largely unaware of his power and sometimes having to be "tricked" into using them like when the Roaches gets him to stomp. Also, Redcloak is a geek and likely has read a number of comics -he would know "what" the MitD is. Additionally it fits the way Rich use tropes and "quotes" when he tells his story.

For lack of a better term I will suggest that the MitD is a Fifth-Dimensional Imp

I know this does not truly address the Circus Scene as there is no real description of what a "Fifth-Dimensional Imp" looks like, but let put it down to shape changing for now. Where it does fit the Circus is that the circus is filled with characters from superhero comics. Superhero comics is the typical place you would find a character with the power to warp reality.

[blackjack217]

take a look at this. One of the dragons killed is completely in the dark. A clue perhaps?
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html

[mootoall]

take a look at this. One of the dragons killed is completely in the dark. A clue perhaps?
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html

I think we're fairly certain MitD is not a dragon. He's too small to be old enough to have an epic challenge rating if he were a dragon. I don't see what other clues there could be regarding that.

[Klev]

take a look at this. One of the dragons killed is completely in the dark. A clue perhaps?
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html

Probably not, Black Dragons can cast Darkness 3 times a day , so that was why Rich put the dragon in the dark.

[MightyTim]

I think we're fairly certain MitD is not a dragon. He's too small to be old enough to have an epic challenge rating if he were a dragon. I don't see what other clues there could be regarding that.

I apologize in advance this has already been discussed, since just recently entered this discussion, and there was no way I was going to wade through 20+ pages of speculation....

Anyway, my knowledge of 3.5 monsters is pretty limited, but in 4e, I know that at least some dragons have the ability to turn into a humanoid form. Is it possible that MitD has this ability?

I personally don't think that MitD is a dragon, but if it were a monster with such an ability, size would no longer be an issue, and would possible shed more light on O'chul's statement that MitD was "a good man."

[Edited to remove the thumbs down mark I accidentally gave myself]

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I apologize in advance this has already been discussed, since just recently entered this discussion, and there was no way I was going to wade through 20+ pages of speculation....

Anyway, my knowledge of 3.5 monsters is pretty limited, but in 4e, I know that at least some dragons have the ability to turn into a humanoid form. Is it possible that MitD has this ability?

I personally don't think that MitD is a dragon, but if it were a monster with such an ability, size would no longer be an issue, and would possible shed more light on O'chul's statement that MitD was "a good man."

[Edited to remove the thumbs down mark I accidentally gave myself]

But we're back to the circus scene: the curtains open, MitD is light up, and the public sees a man. He does nothing. And yet, there is vomiting, disturbed looks, and people that don't know what he is.

Sorry, still doesn't fit.

Grey Wolf

[Klev]

But we're back to the circus scene: the curtains open, MitD is light up, and the public sees a man. He does nothing. And yet, there is vomiting, disturbed looks, and people that don't know what he is.

Sorry, still doesn't fit.

Grey Wolf

Exactly.

Of course one could say that a dragon could have changed his form to something small and disgusting (explaining the size and the circus scene), but then remains the question if MITD had changed his form how could the hunters recognized him ?

[blackjack217]

if you consider the number of half dragons and variants of various types it becomes slightly more believable I am not actually advocating it but merely pointing out something that probably should be considered, that's it.

[mootoall]

I used to have a theory about how spontaneous casting works in OOTS, before I found out that Create Undead Animal was a first level spell, that a sorcerer's first spell may not have been limited by his class level, and was rather a burst of unbridled energy, which might have explained the escape, based on

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Xykon's first spell in SoD,

but then I was introduced to Create Undead Animal, which debunked that theory.

However, I've never seen the spell in its book, just linked to on a website, so I'm not sure where it is, nor if it's from an official source that's being used in OotS, so I suppose it may be possible?

[Klev]

I used to have a theory about how spontaneous casting works in OOTS, before I found out that Create Undead Animal was a first level spell, that a sorcerer's first spell may not have been limited by his class level, and was rather a burst of unbridled energy, which might have explained the escape, based on

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Xykon's first spell in SoD,

but then I was introduced to Create Undead Animal, which debunked that theory.

However, I've never seen the spell in its book, just linked to on a website, so I'm not sure where it is, nor if it's from an official source that's being used in OotS, so I suppose it may be possible?

The correct name is "Animate Dead Animals", it is on "The Complete Book of Necromancers". It is official and a 2nd edition book. I don't know if it was upgraded to the 3rd edition...

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Which thinking now makes sense as when Xycon was a child that was probably the current edition

[Kish]

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Which thinking now makes sense as when Xycon was a child that was probably the current edition

When Xycon was a child? Quite possibly.
When Xykon was a child? No. No sorcerers in 2ed.

[Zeofar]

The MitD is...

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The Hotel California. Invulnerability: "They stab it with their steely knives, but they just can't kill the beast."
Love of food and ability to devour things: "We are programmed to receive"
"Such a lovely face" explains how it is somehow beautiful, but obviously this thing is disgusting to anyone who really looks at it.
The rest of its abilities are left vague, so it might be able to do any of the other things mentioned. Obviously, there is more than one hotel in California, and California isn't a jungle.
Yes, I've solved it.

[Lord Bingo]

Ass!

I am intrigued by this California, and I wish to learn more

[MarkusWolfe]

Entire thread is tl;dr, but looking at post 1, here's my thoughts:

Unless it turns out MitD eats and sleeps because he wants to, we're going to have to eliminate all extraplanar creatures, as anything with the Outsider type does not NEED to eat or sleep. The exception to this is the Native Outsider type, which in addition to needing to eat and sleep, can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. However, the only kinds of Native Outsiders are Aasimar, Couatl, Half-Celestials, Half-Fiends, Janni, Rakshasa, Tieflings and Tritons, none of which fit MitD's profile.

[Bongos]

The MitD is...
The Hotel California. Invulnerability: "They stab it with their steely knives, but they just can't kill the beast."
Love of food and ability to devour things: "We are programmed to receive"
"Such a lovely face" explains how it is somehow beautiful, but obviously this thing is disgusting to anyone who really looks at it.
The rest of its abilities are left vague, so it might be able to do any of the other things mentioned. Obviously, there is more than one hotel in California, and California isn't a jungle.
Yes, I've solved it.

[/SPOILER]

and earthquakes....I mean stomps...

[Qwernt]

I admit that I haven't fully read this thread (I have read a number of pages, including the first), so feel free to blast away...

Things I have noted that I didn't see called out:

Sleep: it has been pointed out that MitD sleeps. This has been used as reasons against constructs and certain outsiders. Something I noted, the only times he has stated he was tired were: EarthQuake and Escape. I suspect this is not on accident.

Escape as Wish/Limited Wish: While the wording "You need to leave. You need to ESCAPE." does not fit with the Giant's normal spell casting (ie, it should have been "I wish you would Escape"), I think there are hints given earlier in the storyline. If you look at comic 543, we see "I hoped really, really hard and he still didn't escape. I don't know why it didn't work." I suspect most people assume Tsukiko is correct, that MitD is foolish/childish in hoping that something will happen will make it happen. I submit that by this point in the story line, the Giant knew that MitD was going to Wish Mr. Stiffly to safety and is using clues here to foreshadow it. "I don't know why it didn't work" could have reference to the fact that he KNOWS he can cast wish - or more specifically he knows a relative (father) could. This would work well with the Giant's comment that MitD had to dig deep down to learn he could do it (ie, not just his father). Also, by the SRD, Wish has an XP cost, what better way to describe this drain than "I'm really tired all of a sudden" (quote from comic 477 - in 661/662 he does not have the line, but he is fast asleep). This implies that the earthquake had a similar cost, which means it could have been a wish/limited wish also. Which makes sense from a "how could something fit under the umbrella and still make the earthquake". Note that with the earthquake, MitD did not know he could do it, but the Roach did. However, the roach specifically didn't say "stomp as hard as you can", he said "Stop on the ground, like you did when Xykon wouldn't buy you those Transformers." which implies he needed some desire. That siad, since that event happened, BUT MitD did not notice an earthquake (when he REALLY wished for transformeres), one wonders how the roach knew an earthquake could happen (where his passion seems much less). Lastly, unless I read the SRD wrong, Limited Wish could replace Teleport. I suspect it is the mass version that would require Wish.

Escape as an Epic Spell: Conversly, assuming MitD is Epic level, could it be that he sponteneously created an Epic Level spell, "Escape". Basically a mass version of something similar to Word of Recall (but recalls you to a "safe" location - in this case above friends). Again, Epic Level Spells tend to have a backlash which could be described as "suddenly tired".

Roaches: MitD brought the roaches in with his sloppy habits (as RC stated in the popcorn/crystal ball comic). While this is obviously before magic strip 100, I think it is safe to say that the Giant was already thinking of MitD as younger, and I would guess if MitD were human younger than 25. It is also noteworthy that the roaches understand his full abilities. While the Giant says MitD had to reach down and learn about himself in order to help with the escape, the roaches knew right away what had happened - and they had been there when his "hopes" that Mr Stiffly would escape happened.

Pun-Pun: When MitD sayd "maybe I am a kobold" most of us instantly recognize a nod to Pun-Pun. However, unless he actually looks a little like a kobold, why would he say that? Given that he has seen a kobold (YikYik seen through the crystal ball), it would be completely out of place for the Giant to have him think he looked like a kobold if in fact he did not bear at least a small resemblence. Also, given the "Maybe I'm two kobolds'" comment, we do know approximately how tall he is. Also, we can assume that he is no significantly fat for 2 kobolds tall, or that would have been called out too. So I believe this can help eliminate any non-lizard-ish sort of being (at least I thought OotS kobolds were lizardish and not dogish). IE, he wouldn't think he is a kobold if he was ooze shaped. With this same idea we can exclude 4 legged beasts.

Alignement: My base assumption is Lawful Neutral. Why? cause he doesn't actually act evil, he just hangs out with evil guys cause they are "nice" to him (as he explained to Mr Stiffly). The problem with this alignment is that it excludes the majority of the guess that are demon/devil based. However as people pointed out, the Giant does occasionally reassign alignment for key characters for Rule of Funny - IE a certain Chaotic Evil halfling... so I believe in this case Lawful Neutral does not exclude any creature type.

Comic 651: Note Ochul asks "Is that... normal... for you kind?". This implies that while he may know of the creature type, he does not have extensive knowledge. From this we infer that MitD is not a typically "Asian" monster (as Ochul as a Paladin from an "Asian" culture I would expect him to know the dangerous creatures in the area). Also, it is interesting that he was "always there" and yet he was not born there (at least I believe the no applies to the first question, not the second). Also, his Dad was BIG, note no reference to his mother being big. And BIG implies MUCH BIGGER than MitD. Last Also, his lack of knowing his kind/homeland/etc could be the excuse/in story reason for being able to muck with the alignment.

Environment: Given that the Big Game hunters were surprised to find a given "intelligent" creature deep in a rainforest, I think you could go one step further and surmise he usually isn't found ANYWHERE NEAR a rainforest. So, I starting thinking HOT or COLD, not just "plains/evergreen forest creature" since an intelligent creature (like the big game hunters themselves) are known to go to other environments for vast and various reasons. Conversely, would could use these two ideas (he speaks common and is somewhere he isn't supposed to be) to suggest that his creature type usually isn't considered intelligent. IE no culture, etc. In which case adding a 1/2 dragon template (yeah big daddy) could add intelligence as well.

I suspect that is enough text for now...

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Sleep: it has been pointed out that MitD sleeps. This has been used as reasons against constructs and certain outsiders. Something I noted, the only times he has stated he was tired were: EarthQuake and Escape. I suspect this is not on accident.

He is also seen sleeping for no other reason that it was night, and now is morning. If, like you seem to be implying, he only feels tired when having used his powers, he wouldn't need to have been sleeping. In any narrative, people are most of the time not shown sleeping, because it is boring and pointless. MitD has been shown needing sleep, and sleeping with no real reason - both of which is more than, say, RC's been shown to do.

Escape as Wish/Limited Wish: While the wording "You need to leave. You need to ESCAPE." does not fit with the Giant's normal spell casting (ie, it should have been "I wish you would Escape"),

There isn't a "normal spell casting". While it is true that most spells are called out, not all of them are, and we know from the sneak attack call-outs that is is more personal style than otherwise.

Also, by the SRD, Wish has an XP cost, what better way to describe this drain than "I'm really tired all of a sudden" (quote from comic 477 - in 661/662 he does not have the line, but he is fast asleep). This implies that the earthquake had a similar cost, which means it could have been a wish/limited wish also.

Except he very clearly didn't know what was about to happen (since he was surprised by the result), and thus cannot in any way be understood to have been his wish. If he was just fulfilling the roach's wish, too, there would be no need of feet stomping.

Which makes sense from a "how could something fit under the umbrella and still make the earthquake".

That is not an objection I have ever heard. There is many creatures in the medium to large size range with enough strength, and that's not even counting the ones that simply have access to Earthquake spells and SLAs

Escape as an Epic Spell: Conversly, assuming MitD is Epic level, could it be that he sponteneously created an Epic Level spell, "Escape". Basically a mass version of something similar to Word of Recall (but recalls you to a "safe" location - in this case above friends). Again, Epic Level Spells tend to have a backlash which could be described as "suddenly tired".

It is my understanding that epic spells take days to research. What is this "spontaneous" creation you speak of? Under what rules does it operate? Also, if he suddenly created a spell on the spot, how is that a power that he didn't know he had? Are you insinuating that Rich was referring to the ability to instantly create epic spells, rather than the escape ability itself?

Roaches: MitD brought the roaches in with his sloppy habits (as RC stated in the popcorn/crystal ball comic).

Wrong. The roaches' origin is spelled out in SoD, and have nothing to do with MitD, who had not yet joined Team Evil.

Pun-Pun: When MitD sayd "maybe I am a kobold" most of us instantly recognize a nod to Pun-Pun. However, unless he actually looks a little like a kobold, why would he say that? Given that he has seen a kobold (YikYik seen through the crystal ball), it would be completely out of place for the Giant to have him think he looked like a kobold if in fact he did not bear at least a small resemblence. Also, given the "Maybe I'm two kobolds'" comment, we do know approximately how tall he is. Also, we can assume that he is no significantly fat for 2 kobolds tall, or that would have been called out too. So I believe this can help eliminate any non-lizard-ish sort of being (at least I thought OotS kobolds were lizardish and not dogish). IE, he wouldn't think he is a kobold if he was ooze shaped. With this same idea we can exclude 4 legged beasts.

You are reading way too much into that single panel.

Comic 651: Note Ochul asks "Is that... normal... for you kind?". This implies that while he may know of the creature type, he does not have extensive knowledge. From this we infer that MitD is not a typically "Asian" monster (as Ochul as a Paladin from an "Asian" culture I would expect him to know the dangerous creatures in the area).

Why are you assuming that O'Chul has any knowledge of what MitD is at all? He has never seen him. The phrase indicates simply that O'Chul doesn't know what to call him - for all O'Chul knows, he isn't even a member of a species. Kind is a good, solid, generic word he can use. Also, What do you mean Asian?

Also, it is interesting that he was "always there" and yet he was not born there (at least I believe the no applies to the first question, not the second).

You may believe so, but there is no reason to assume so. He could very well, given MitD's mind, have already forgotten the first question.

Also, his Dad was BIG, note no reference to his mother being big.

There is no reference to there being a mom involved at all.

And BIG implies MUCH BIGGER than MitD.

Err, no it does not do that at all. You may want to interpret it that way, but there are other perfectly reasonable inferences that don't require the father to be "MUCH BIGGER", only bigger, or even not at all bigger anymore.

Last Also, his lack of knowing his kind/homeland/etc could be the excuse/in story reason for being able to muck with the alignment.

Beats me why Rich'd need them as excuses, but ok.

Environment: Given that the Big Game hunters were surprised to find a given "intelligent" creature deep in a rainforest,

Intelligent? No, only one talking in common. Do not confuse one with the other, they are not interchangeable.

Grey Wolf

[MarkusWolfe]

I admit that I haven't fully read this thread (I have read a number of pages, including the first), so feel free to blast away...

*snip*

Interesting thoughts. They inspired me to a new point: is it possible for an outsider to become a native outsider by spending too much time on the material plane, or from being born spending their entire lives on the material plane?

[Witty Username]

I have an idea...

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MitD is an epic level sorcerer that used PAO cheese
his charisma score has been high enough to cast spell but he forgot he could. what he phoymorphed into... something strong and ugly

or...

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it could be an ancient, Epic level halfling ranger/barbarian/caster who was thrown back in time and therefore fulfilling the oracle's prophesy by chronologically taking his last breath when killed as MitD

sorry if I stole an idea

[Kish]

Your first idea seems to amount to, "We can/should treat the biggest clue we've gotten so far, the Escape, as no clue to his species at all." I disagree with that.

Your second idea...Isn't the thread for looking for loopholes in Belkar's death prophecy above this one? Or below this one? Or...somewhere that isn't this one? That idea certainly doesn't explain anything about the creature in the darkness.

[Zeofar]

Is there any reason to believe that the MitD isn't decked out with as many magical items that Xykon could get his hands on? Obviously, the MitD is either still extremely powerful before that, or has some unique ability to make greater use of magic items than other creatures, but it could explain some of his abilities that don't fit with other monsters and his obliviousness to them, as well as lower the necessary CR to fit the bill. Sure, this idea pretty much runs up against the same problems as templates, but its worth at least mentioning for the same reasons that templates are.

I also feel that, although it would have no bearing on what type of monster he is (and thus not really an adequate answer), being "Snarl Jr." can't really be discounted since the Snarl could (unless I missed something) be the source of any number of monsters or aberrations (I could certainly see some of D&D's horrible beasts stepping out of the tears in reality) or some such. At the very least, it could explain what his father is and open up possibilities for creatures that don't have "parents," as well as the MitD's unsureness about his origins (I doubt that he could eloquently or adequately express the pure chaos that probably exists with the Snarl, or really understand anything of what was before he came to the world proper).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Is there any reason to believe that the MitD isn't decked out with as many magical items that Xykon could get his hands on?

Parsimony seems a good reason. Then there is the lack of evidence. And of course it doesn't fit with Xykon's general M.O.

Obviously, the MitD is either still extremely powerful before that, or has some unique ability to make greater use of magic items than other creatures, but it could explain some of his abilities that don't fit with other monsters and his obliviousness to them, as well as lower the necessary CR to fit the bill. Sure, this idea pretty much runs up against the same problems as templates, but its worth at least mentioning for the same reasons that templates are.

Actually, it brings even more problems that the templates, and that is saying something. Why would Xykon do that? This is a guy that kills any minion that gains levels. Why would he go out of his way to strengthen MitD, the most useless of his minions? Why would RC recruit a creature that needs to be boosted? Etc.

I also feel that, although it would have no bearing on what type of monster he is (and thus not really an adequate answer), being "Snarl Jr." can't really be discounted since the Snarl could (unless I missed something) be the source of any number of monsters or aberrations (I could certainly see some of D&D's horrible beasts stepping out of the tears in reality) or some such. At the very least, it could explain what his father is and open up possibilities for creatures that don't have "parents," as well as the MitD's unsureness about his origins (I doubt that he could eloquently or adequately express the pure chaos that probably exists with the Snarl, or really understand anything of what was before he came to the world proper).

You have missed something: Snarl is not a creator. The gods create (including evil creatures, such as abominations, to allow his clerics to gain levels), while Snarl is a force of chaos and destruction (entropy). That pretty much stops the whole reasoning at its start. If you really want to think that the Snarl adopted MitD, go right ahead, but since you have no evidence of it, it brings nothing to the table, and it seems implausible given that there is no rift in that jungle, I'll continue to ignore the possibility.

Grey Wolf

[Zeofar]

Parsimony seems a good reason. Then there is the lack of evidence. And of course it doesn't fit with Xykon's general M.O.

I'll definitely admit that, as a rule, this is true. There is nothing to suggest that Xykon would ever care to help out his minions, even if it helped himself. There isn't really any decent answer to this.
Also, before I get further into this, let me mention that I haven't read Start of Darkness, so I could be missing out on critical points regarding Xykon or Redcloak.

Actually, it brings even more problems that the templates, and that is saying something. Why would Xykon do that? This is a guy that kills any minion that gains levels. Why would he go out of his way to strengthen MitD, the most useless of his minions? Why would RC recruit a creature that needs to be boosted? Etc.

To start, the MitD isn't useless, or at least, there isn't anything to suggest that he is beyond being generally lazy and the fact that for some reason, Xykon never lets him do anything that he is good at (which appears to be 1. being invulnerable 2. massive beatdowns and, 3. apparently using wishes or teleportation of some kind). Maybe I've been reading the story on him entirely wrong, but I thought that the whole point of the MitD was that he was Xykon's final recourse, his ace in the hole, and that the only reason that he isn't used is because once his powers become known, it is incredibly easy to outwit him. That whole point is paradoxical anyways, since we know that the MitD irritates Xykon (prime fodder for his "entertainment") and that Xykon does anything he wants to his minions, solely excepting Redcloak, who is useful to him, so it isn't unreasonable to assume that the MitD has a use since he is still around. If he didn't want to risk somehow damaging the MitD, why isn't he used in torture games for Xykon's entertainment? If he really can't be hurt, but he is otherwise useless, why wasn't he abandoned somewhere?

As for why Redcloak would recruit a character that "needs" to be boosted? Well, I never said that he "needs" to be boosted. I did mention that it would make sense that the MitD was extremely powerful before that. As for why? To make him better. Having an extremely customizable creature that can unlock powers and combinations of magic items no-one else can is undoubtedly useful. Redcloak thinks much further ahead of things than Xykon, and if it is true that the MitD has potential for strength beyond most mortals/immortals/anything (even if you need to "buff" him with magic items), that would have been attractive to Redcloak.

I'll also mention that this isn't a pet theory of mine; it is just something I thought up and figured it deserved a little consideration.

You have missed something: Snarl is not a creator. The gods create (including evil creatures, such as abominations, to allow his clerics to gain levels), while Snarl is a force of chaos and destruction (entropy). That pretty much stops the whole reasoning at its start. If you really want to think that the Snarl adopted MitD, go right ahead, but since you have no evidence of it, it brings nothing to the table, and it seems implausible given that there is no rift in that jungle, I'll continue to ignore the possibility.

Grey Wolf

To think that the MitD was adopted by the Snarl is totally ridiculous and has nothing to do what I said to begin with, so I'll pass on thinking that and ignore it beyond that. I've missed the part in the comic about the good gods creating evil creatures but I'll take your word for it, since I'm not keen on searching through 750 strips for one point. Even if that is true, that in itself doesn't directly discount what I'm saying.

As for my actual point about the Snarl: I'm not suggesting that he is a creator, or that the creatures that I suggested came from him came about by design. The Snarl is basically a melting pot of practically infinite energy (it devoured Gods, right?); it came into being through random anger and hostility. However, if chaos was totally random, it would be homogeneously random, and thus completely ordered - if anything comes into being from the Snarl, it is simply because it is random, being ordered in some places and disordered in others, with some of this and that and the other in this place or the next. This random energy could give birth to bizarre, disgusting creatures like gibbering mouthers or something else (see: aberrations, along with a select bunch of other creatures). I'm also not suggesting that the Snarl was actually a father to the MitD inasmuch as a paternal role, but simply that perhaps, for just a moment before he was somehow flung out from demiplane of the Snarl, he saw what was and had a small instant of understanding.

The fact that there isn't a rift in the Jungle is a concern that I admittedly didn't consider, so I'll concede that difficulty. Another point is how an entire species of the MitD came into being if he himself personally considers the Snarl his father and he came about through random energy. There are some creative ways I can think around that, but it is a bit implausible, so admittedly the idea is flawed.

But, I'll mention this again: this isn't some pet theory of mine that I think perfectly answers the origin of the MitD, or that my scheme is superior to all others, or that it is totally flawless. My original point was really that its not possible to discount the Snarl as the MitD's origin because Rich could easily slap a "came from the Snarl" tag on any creature that exists and was created by someone else. If you think that it is categorically impossible for anything from or any part of the Snarl to slip into the rest of the world, you should mention that in the OP along with the rest of the points as why "Son of Snarl" is a discarded idea. Beside that, it isn't really my concern whether or not you agree with this, since I posted this as much for the benefit of anyone else on the forum as for yours.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Beside that, it isn't really my concern whether or not you agree with this, since I posted this as much for the benefit of anyone else on the forum as for yours.

While I can appreciate that, as thread maintainer, I have to understand what you are telling me. Now, I can simply ignore you, but then don't complain when any insights you have aren't added to the first post, since I can't very well add something I don't follow.

To start, the MitD isn't useless, or at least, there isn't anything to suggest that he is beyond being generally lazy and the fact that for some reason, Xykon never lets him do anything that he is good at (which appears to be 1. being invulnerable 2. massive beatdowns and, 3. apparently using wishes or teleportation of some kind). Maybe I've been reading the story on him entirely wrong, but I thought that the whole point of the MitD was that he was Xykon's final recourse, his ace in the hole, and that the only reason that he isn't used is because once his powers become known, it is incredibly easy to outwit him. That whole point is paradoxical anyways, since we know that the MitD irritates Xykon (prime fodder for his "entertainment") and that Xykon does anything he wants to his minions, solely excepting Redcloak, who is useful to him, so it isn't unreasonable to assume that the MitD has a use since he is still around. If he didn't want to risk somehow damaging the MitD, why isn't he used in torture games for Xykon's entertainment? If he really can't be hurt, but he is otherwise useless, why wasn't he abandoned somewhere?

Xykon is Xykon's "ace in the hole". Everything we've seen in the comic leads me to believe that MitD is nothing else than Xykon giving in to his own sense of drama, but let's not kid ourselves: MitD does not loom large in Xykon's world except as the obligatory cliché of the sudden dramatic reveal (and occasionally, when Xykon requires something bungled, as in the tower scene). MitD is, in Xykon's eye sockets, Xykon's minion, nothing more and nothing else. Xykon is never going to seriously rely on MitD for anything as important as defeating a band of powerful adventurers.

Now, if I understand what you propose, is that all the powers that don't fit whatever creature is being offered are instead explained by hypothetical magical items. This is where I simply don't follow the logic - and it seems you agree, and yet continue to... what? Convince us it is worth considering?

Let's compare it, since you brought it up, to the template stack: templates are unlikely backstory additions to MitD to boost an otherwise floundering creature. Their main problem, of course, is lack of evidence, followed closely by increasingly-improbable ascendents, the more you use it ("turns out that he is psionically gifted" is more likely a reveal down the line than "turns out he is half-dragon, half-Tarrasque, psionically gifted demi-angel demon"). The magic items, on the other hand, actually goes against what we can see and the evidence we have - we know the escape was something MitD did from within him (word of god) and that the earthquake was caused by him, for example. OK, I can see the earthquake being a magical boot, but it still seems ridiculously far-fetched, given what we know of Xykon - particularly how he likes creating magical objects for his own use. He isn't about to spend his precious 8 hours doing something for MitD to break.

To think that the MitD was adopted by the Snarl is totally ridiculous and has nothing to do what I said to begin with, so I'll pass on thinking that and ignore it beyond that.

Really? Because I was throwing you a bone there. While MitD cannot be literally Snarl Jr, for the reasons explained in OP, I have no reason (other than lack of evidence) to discard adoption by Snarl as a possibility. Won't add anything to a creature (or rather, nothing more than positing it was adopted, ugly duckling style, by, say, a dragon), but there isn't anything directly against it at this point (other than "no rifts in the jungle")

I've missed the part in the comic about the good gods creating evil creatures but I'll take your word for it, since I'm not keen on searching through 750 strips for one point. Even if that is true, that in itself doesn't directly discount what I'm saying.

SoD, Dark One's rant against the gods/backstory on goblin creation.

As for my actual point about the Snarl: I'm not suggesting that he is a creator, or that the creatures that I suggested came from him came about by design. The Snarl is basically a melting pot of practically infinite energy (it devoured Gods, right?);

No, it killed them (clawed them to pieces). Snarl hasn't shown eating anything or anyone. The whole "infinite energy is also false. He is a snag on many threads of creation, but neither all of them, nor infinitely so.

it came into being through random anger and hostility.

Not quite. It was created due to the disagreements when molding the fabric of the world. It is literally described as a being born of chaos, but same difference, I suppose.

However, if chaos was totally random, it would be homogeneously random, and thus completely ordered

I think you are confusing physics with fantasy. Pure chaos in D&D means Limbo, not the absolute order of Mechanus. A being of pure chaos is one that would fit in the first, not in the second.

I'm also not suggesting that the Snarl was actually a father to the MitD inasmuch as a paternal role, but simply that perhaps, for just a moment before he was somehow flung out from demiplane of the Snarl, he saw what was and had a small instant of understanding.

Yes, I understand. It remains contrary to established canon. We know that the Snarl doesn't understand how to twist the fabric of the world - indeed, it didn't even see the gods creating the jail around him. In OotSverse, all creatures have been created by the gods.

My original point was really that its not possible to discount the Snarl as the MitD's origin because Rich could easily slap a "came from the Snarl" tag on any creature that exists and was created by someone else. If you think that it is categorically impossible for anything from or any part of the Snarl to slip into the rest of the world, you should mention that in the OP along with the rest of the points as why "Son of Snarl" is a discarded idea.

It already says pretty much that, when we point out that, if it includes Snarl, then it is in a big way "invented by Rich", and is disqualified as going against word of author. On the other hand, if it does include the Snarl, but doesn't change what MitD base creature is, then it is irrelevant to the discussion. Nothing more needs to be added.

Grey Wolf

[Bongos]

Xykon is Xykon's "ace in the hole". Everything we've seen in the comic leads me to believe that MitD is nothing else than Xykon giving in to his own sense of drama, but let's not kid ourselves: MitD does not loom large in Xykon's world except as the obligatory cliché of the sudden dramatic reveal (and occasionally, when Xykon requires something bungled, as in the tower scene). MitD is, in Xykon's eye sockets, Xykon's minion, nothing more and nothing else. Xykon is never going to seriously rely on MitD for anything as important as defeating a band of powerful adventurers.

Grey Wolf

Yeah , I'm not do sure about that. I just feel the only reason why Xykon puts up with the MitD is that the MitD is something very, very special (perhaps even little bus special ) "his star relief pitcher" while it is true, he has a low opinion of the MitD's intelligence and his reliability, I have always got the impression that Xykon respects the MitD's power.

I concur, that Xykon may subscribe to the idea if you want something done right, you do it yourself, and perhaps Xykon is his own 'Ace in the hole". If so then the MitD must surely be the "wild Joker", that if played right trumps all.