MitD III: You are likely to suggest Tarrasque

[Zelthax]

[...]
You're shutting down any out of the box thinking very quickly, and you have been pretty consistent about it for thirty pages. (Yes, I actually read them all.) [...]final thought: forensic analysis is probably NOT the best tool to interpret art. That's why we have literary analysis. Your approach here is ruling out the best methods for working out the mystery you want to solve.

I fail to see exactly what you are trying to say.

Logic doesn't work? We can't use the clues Rich gave us? I can't fathom a branch of literary analysis that ignores the subject matter itself (in this example, the art and story arc). And sure, if we don't take into account the words of Rich or the clues left behind in-comic, pretty much everything suggested in this thread could work (excluding copyrighted stuff). And out-of-the-box thinking is different from wild speculation.

Again, I'm not sure what these "best methods" you are referring to actually are, but I do know that this thread is pretty exhaustive in its' methods for MitD discussion.

Also, I have noticed that this is an epidemic- please do not condemn the speculation of others:

Anyway, I see there is little point in continuing the discussion.

Just because you can't see a reasonable end to a problem doesn't mean that someone else doesn't have the right to have fun debating it. This thread has seen more recurrences of the same ideas than any other thread on this site- but occasionally, someone will say something that sparks interest, and something new is taken into consideration.

Discussion is fun, and this thread wants nothing more than to combine all of the crazy fan ideas into something workable- for the betterment of the community's understanding of this enigma Rich has given us. Shutting it down because someone thinks it's run its' course? Not quite fair.


To address your original point:

You're suggesting that with hundreds of comics at our disposal, we can't gain any sense of Rich's style or sense of humor and thus guess with a fair degree of accuracy that the monster will in fact be 'cool' and/or 'funny'. You're also ignoring the fact that not only does Rich understand these tropes, he even makes jokes about them. He also makes jokes about people being overly rigid and literal in their interpretation of rules, just so you know.

I think you misunderstand Grey Wolf here. He doesn't specifically rule out that the monster could be famous/iconic, but he does make the (correct) point that we cannot assume the MitD must be famous/iconic.

Grey uses deductive reasoning to build a frame for reader guesswork, but inductive reasoning proves nothing. It may lend credibility, but it cannot be relied on.


EDIT: Got induction and deduction mixed up.

[Lord Bingo]

Grey uses inductive reasoning to build a frame for reader guesswork, but deductive reasoning proves nothing. It may lend credibility, but it cannot be relied on.

I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say with the above sentence: Inductive or deductive? What do you mean?

I would have to agree with Thraka, that our historic knowledge of Rich and OOTS should allow us to make fair assumptions regarding the style of his authorship. Even if it does not directly inform us of the MitD's species it might point us in the right direction.

In order to form a theory one must first start with a hypothesis, such as "if X is the case then what?. You make assumptions, gather evidence for and against and on that basis you form a theory about the actual state of matters.

This thread does at times seem to promote one specific way of going about business which in turn stifles new ideas. This would, in principle, be ok was it not for two things: 1) the forum rules that prohibit more than one thread on one subject (the MitD), and (again IMO) that in spite of the great work that has been put into this thread we are a bit stuck and none of our top contenders are really that great. Perhaps a bit more liberal out of the box thinking might prove useful?

Surely to go out on a limb for a few pages and ignoring fx. copyright issues or going with a trope would not ruin the thread and in the end if the approach does not produce solid evidence then nothing will be added to the post on page one.

This is not me complaining but I hate to see that people feel like they are being shot down and leave because an out of the box idea got "flamed". Perhaps we should all try to be more aware of how we come across in this thread when we reply to new or radical ideas?

[thraka]

Zelthax, I think you completely misunderstand what I am saying. Perhaps I did not communicate it well. I am saying I disagree with Gray Wolf's views on what is and is not in bounds, specifically the likelihood of the MITD likely being a recognizable or iconic creature. Furthermore, out of respect for the fact that Gray Wolf has obviously done a lot of work, I will accede to his preferences in the discussion. I am not asking anyone else to shut up. _I_ am going to shut up, because I like this thread and would like to keep reading it without cluttering it with pointless arguing.

Does that make more sense?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Zelthax, I think you completely misunderstand what I am saying. Perhaps I did not communicate it well. I am saying I disagree with Gray Wolf's views on what is and is not in bounds, specifically the likelihood of the MITD likely being a recognizable or iconic creature. Furthermore, out of respect for the fact that Gray Wolf has obviously done a lot of work, I will accede to his preferences in the discussion. I am not asking anyone else to shut up. _I_ am going to shut up, because I like this thread and would like to keep reading it without cluttering it with pointless arguing.

Does that make more sense?

Thraka, I think you are misunderstanding me, too. By all means stay and give us your reasoning. But you cannot expect me not to counter your arguments. I think I made a pretty good case, both from direct logic and from opposite viewpoint that we cannot accept that "it is famous" counts as a point in favour of any proposed creature. That doesn't mean you must propose obscure creatures, and it certainly doesn't mean you cannot propose famous creatures. All it means is that them being famous is not a "pro" for the creature.

Also: the name is Grey Wolf. Gray is a color, grey is a colour. Sounds a bit silly to make the distinction, but every so often I search the thread for people mentioning me (mostly for catching any modifications to the first post I may have missed, as I am doing now) and I won't find the posts if they're not using my actual handle.

Grey Wolf

[Lix Lorn]

Gray is a color, grey is a colour.

Purely out of context, that's the best way of putting that ever. XD Can I sig it?

[Gray Mage]

Gray is a color, grey is a colour.

Mind if I signed it too?
Also, congrats on the thread, it must be hard to maintain it up to date.

[Zelthax]

I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say with the above sentence: Inductive or deductive? What do you mean?

Deductive reasoning is that which is built step by step to form a statement based on previous steps, all of which are known to be true. Inductive reasoning is an assumption/prediction of the future based on past observations.

For example, if I wanted to prove deductively that, say, a bridge can't hold an 18-wheeler. I would build up to that statement:
This bridge cannot hold more than X tons.
This truck weighs X+Y tons.
Therefore, this bridge cannot hold this truck.

And example of inductive reasoning would be:
I have observed that the sun comes up every day. It has always risen every morning since man has existed. I therefore have conclude that the sun will rise tomorrow.

The difference being that even though we "know" the sun will come up tomorrow, something could happen to disprove this.

Grey has worked to create deductive proof, something that holds weight in a community where facts are dissected and applied. We can use Rich's statements and such to narrow down our list of arguments step by step. We cannot use inductive reasoning (i.e. Rich has always done it like this, so he must continue to do it like this). Or rather, we can observe inductive reasoning, but cannot apply it in our (definite) elimination of potential monsters.

I would have to agree with Thraka, that our historic knowledge of Rich and OOTS should allow us to make fair assumptions regarding the style of his authorship. Even if it does not directly inform us of the MitD's species it might point us in the right direction.

This is inductive. While I agree that it will help point us in the right direction (as you have pointed out), the community must be very careful not to base "facts" on this.

I will concede that perhaps we can get a little abrupt in here. If, maybe, an idea proposed for the sake of itself (as opposed to an actual claim against the facts) were to be noted as such, I think we wouldn't jump down someone's throat. I am sorry if I offended anyone!

Thraka:

I see what you are saying, but I think that maybe somewhere between our posts some wires are getting crossed.

Grey, as he has stated above, does not rule out famous or iconic creatures. He makes a deliberate point, though, that the creatures is not required to be famous or iconic, merely recognizable.

EDIT: Thanks to Silver (below) for catching my mistake of switching induction/deduction.

[Silver2195]

Inductive reasoning is that which is built step by step to form a statement based on previous steps, all of which are known to be true. Deductive reasoning is an assumption/prediction of the future based on past observations.

Other way around, actually.

[Zelthax]

Other way around, actually.

Aaaand I'm a mathematician and forgot that induction for me is actually deduction. I shall fix my previous posts. Thank you.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Grey, as he has stated above, does not rule out famous or iconic creatures. He makes a deliberate point, though, that the creatures is not required to be famous or iconic, merely recognizable.

Only add: not even recognisable, so long as it has been created (and published) by someone other than Rich. But I'm not going to argue semantics; just reiterate that I simply will contest any attempt to suggest that MitD must be famous, and any attempt to suggest that MitD mustn't be famous. Neither extreme is currently supported by evidence.

Anyway, thread would be updated to page 30, except now the first post is too long. There is a previously unknown to me limit of 50000 characters per post, and my current draft is 51375 characters long (not sure how I added 1300+ characters today, so maybe the limit is a bit fuzzier than that). I'm willing to listen to suggestions, and in future threads I'll just have to divide it in multiple posts.

Edit: For now, I'm moving joke suggestions to here, for safekeeping, being the least important section.

Section 3e: Joke Ideas

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• Carbosilicate Amorph
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  Pros:

  • Can use a teraport to teleport
  • Incredible strength and fighting abilities. Invulnerable to anything short of plasma weapons.
  • Looks like a pile of poo
  • Endearing and adorable
  • Fits under the umbrella easily, but his dad could have been bigger if he had eaten recently
  • Famous for his unbridled appetite.
  • Rich could probably secure copyright from Howard Tayler

  
  Cons:

  • Rich probably wouldn't use a SF character from another comic in his fantasy comic.

  
  
• Inmune to blades, including scissors, but suffers from papercuts?
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  Must be a Rock
• The most dangerous box ever:
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• The fearsome Gazebo
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  HotAndCold explained:
  -A gazebo is obviously a powerful monster, devouring the story's PC without any chance of rebuttal.
  -It takes no damage from a +3 arrow, just as MitD apparently takes no damage from Miko's or Belkar's attacks.
  -Would you recognize a gazebo's tracks?
  -Or expect to find one in a jungle and even speaking in Common, for that matter?
  -It is, of course, a juvenile gazebo, explaining its roughly Medium size, rather than its being large enough for, y'know, people to hang out in it.
  -I... guess he could be a particularly ugly gazebo? Although technically speaking, the gazebo's never actually described in the story beyond its dimensions, color, and the pointiness of its top. So I guess one could argue the gazebo's horrific appearance.
  -The description states that the PC "awakened" the gazebo, implying that it was sleeping. Perhaps it had recently used one of its mighty and tiring abilities!
• A Fanboy
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  Truly grotesque creatures, Fanboys have been known to consume vast quantities of whatever they get their hands on (including mouldy cheeseburgers), while skulking in the darkness of their 'boxes'. When inserted into fantasy fiction, they often wield great quantities of inexplicable power (Mary Sue Syndrome) and have difficulty remembering minor plot details (Gate? What gate?) They are truly the most fearsome creature any Creator can face, and yet are beautiful in that a Creator would be nothing without them. And of course, the monstrous and twisted exterior hides an innocence ill-befitting a horrendous beast, and a niceness of character little understood by those around, often causing them to be bullied by lesser souls in the vicinity.
  
  We are all MitD in the quiet corners of our souls.

Edit 2: Still need more space. Copyright ideas moved:

Section 3c: Copyrighted Ideas

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All ideas listed here, regardless of how well they fit, have a major problem: they are trademarked, or otherwise unavailable for Rich's use due to legal issues (see Section 1b Legal Issues)

Diawolf
Domo-kun
FF Black Mage
FF Red Mage
Godzilla & pals
Heffalump
Kirby
Snorlax

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A great fit, since "They can throw incredibly powerful punches and cause immense earthquakes", is known for its huge appetite and its sleeping. It also grows from a much smaller pokemon, Munchlax, and fits in the box as an adult (6' 11''). Using Metronome, it could have a plot-casuality induced access to "escape from battle" abilities.

Shadow (from Babylon 5)
Skull (from PvP)
Tonberri
Vatch (from Witches of Karres)
Vorlon (from Babylon 5)
Weeping Angel (from Dr. Who)
Yoshi
Q (from Star Trek)

Grey Wolf

[Gray Mage]

Only add: not even recognisable, so long as it has been created (and published) by someone other than Rich. But I'm not going to argue semantics; just reiterate that I simply will contest any attempt to suggest that MitD must be famous, and any attempt to suggest that MitD mustn't be famous. Neither extreme is currently supported by evidence.

Anyway, thread would be updated to page 30, except now the first post is too long. There is a previously unknown to me limit of 50000 characters per post, and my current draft is 51375 characters long (not sure how I added 1300+ characters today, so maybe the limit is a bit fuzzier than that). I'm willing to listen to suggestions, and in future threads I'll just have to divide it in multiple posts.

Grey Wolf

While we don't have a new thread, you could post the excessive in a new post and put a link to it in the first post.

Edit: Like this:
Link

[Qwertystop]

Have living spells (MMIII) been considered? It is possible to combine a few spells to get this effect, it cannot usually speak, and it could definitely be ugly to see a blobby cloud/ball of goo/whatever it is, and, for example, one of the spells in it being glitterdust or an illusion could look beautiful, quite aside from the plain fascination of a bunch of whirling snow. This does tread close to being made up by Rich, for certain combinations, but maybe not. Even if it was a targeted spell, other people have made them (Search Living Spell on google, theres a whole bunch at the top of the list), so it's not what Rich, specifically, made up.

On another note, it could be homebrew made by someone else, not from an official rulebook. Find some spells that could account for most of the MitD, search them in one google search, maybe you'll find a homebrew that can do all of it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Have living spells (MMIII) been considered?

It was published at least 3 years after Rich decided what MitD is, so I'm guessing that idea is right out, sorry.

Nevermind, I got my dates confused. They came out around the same time (2004). Please excuse me.

Grey Wolf

[Gift Jeraff]

All living spells seem to be typical no-Int-score oozes, which would make them immune to mind-affecting spells, no?

[Lord Bingo]

If the MitD was a living spell for him to be able to cast Wish would require that he was at least a caster level 17 spell, which would mean his size would have to be be huge. I guess you could template a living spell, however, so if you applied the dungeon bred template he would be large(?)

Would it need to eat and sleep?

Ooze traits means no Int. score. It is mindless, so that is a definite strike against this theory.

Interesting though. Certainly got me to look it up

[KillItWithFire]

Not sure if anyone noticed this but on the homepage, on that grand poster that they have, the MitD appears to be a (rather small) ball. I'm not sure if this is just because of the drawing style or if we should even consider the poster cannon. The poster at least, does not sugguest a huminoid shape to me... Just something to think about.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Not sure if anyone noticed this but on the homepage, on that grand poster that they have, the MitD appears to be a (rather small) ball. I'm not sure if this is just because of the drawing style or if we should even consider the poster cannon. The poster at least, does not sugguest a huminoid shape to me... Just something to think about.

It was mentioned a few pages ago, when the poster came out. I would imagine that's just MitD's head.

Grey Wolf

[nerd-7i+e]

What about a young Phrenic Half-Earth-Elemental Half-Troll Gloom Fetch?

Environment: Glooms are urban creatures.

Language: Glooms are magically hindered from speech.

Father: Trolls are large.

Reactions: The Fetch's unnerving gaze and the Gloom's fear gaze would do the trick.

"Tickling" attacks: Glooms have an AC of 40. Good luck hitting that!

Tower: Telekinesis SLA from being a Fetch.

Stomp: Earthquake SLA from being a Half-Earth-Elemental.

Shout: Psionic Blast PLA from being a Phrenic Creature.

Escape: Shadow Walk SLA from being a Gloom. MitD stepped off the shadowy path right when he cast it, but O-Chul and Vaarsuvius went off when they reached the fleet.

Eyes: Half-Earth-Elementals have glowing eyes.

Hunger and long reach: From being a Half-Troll.

[Strife Warzeal]

It does fit most (if not all, I don't pay enough attention) conditions, but it seems HIGHLY unlikely because of all the parts of what you said.

[nerd-7i+e]

It does fit most (if not all, I don't pay enough attention) conditions, but it seems HIGHLY unlikely because of all the parts of what you said.

It's only four templates!

[Kish]

Oh, is that all?

Rich is not going to pass off an unholy amalgamation of templates as "something someone else made up."

[nerd-7i+e]

Shoot. Just realized: Half-Trolls have darkvision.

Can I be a Half-Troll? Please?

[Qwernt]

<joke entry>
Working off Thraka's MYDMMU entry, I think I need to change my vote to the Joke entry "Rock". As in "Rock falls, everyone dies".

Now, just need to apply a few templates


Of course, if this group were to make it up by applying templates, would that satisfy both "something someone else made up" and "Rich tends to use certain kinds of humor" ?

[Strife Warzeal]

That would be kinda of a cruel joke wouldn't it? Though doesn't fit with the whole "I've already decided what he is" thing.

[Qwertystop]

Shoot. Just realized: Half-Trolls have darkvision.

Can I be a Half-Troll? Please?

Darkvision doesn't work in Magical Darkness.
Might explain why he wants to be out of the darkness: If he has darkvision, he wouldn't be used to being in darkness that he cannot see through, and might not like it.

[nerd-7i+e]

So MitD's umbrella is an umbrella of magical darkness? As is his corner near the first Gate? And box? And the tunnel by which he and Redcloak escaped?

[Qwertystop]

So MitD's umbrella is an umbrella of magical darkness? As is his corner near the first Gate? And box? And the tunnel by which he and Redcloak escaped?

Actually, we don't know that it was always magical darkness. The only time he said he couldn't see anything was in his corner near the first gate (#97), which was also stated to be magical by Redcloak (#81). Anyway, the darkness isn't to keep MitD from seeing other things, only from other things seeing in, so darkvision wouldn't be a problem anyway.

[nerd-7i+e]

Actually, we don't know that it was always magical darkness. The only time he said he couldn't see anything was in his corner near the first gate (#97), which was also stated to be magical by Redcloak (#81).

True, but he repeatedly asks for others to use light attacks on him, and he's annoyed that he needs the umbrella (#147).

Am I the only one who finds it funny that I'm arguing against my own idea?

[bdh5533]

One thing, i don't think you should limit yourself to just pure monsters. As redcloak observes here in reference to Soon's ghosts: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html

They look like some sort of positive energy spirit, probably homebrewed of cribbed off another campaign.

splat books and fudging of monster abilities are probably acceptable.

[Savannah]

Except that Rich said he didn't just make it up. See the first post for his exact words.