MitD III: You are likely to suggest Tarrasque

[Grey_Wolf_c]

You mean, MitD could be Rich's original monster? Then what's the point?

No, I mean that it isn't necessarily a D&D monster. While we are at it, I also might as well point out that the guessing game is not over. A lot of so-so ideas may get much better once we have actual evidence fitting them. For example, actual evidence of MitD being psionic. Or half-something. Or a reincarnation. All those ideas, in short, that are discarded by Occam's Razor.

Or it might be that he did pick the Protean, since it's basically one of the biggest bags of tricks of the D&D universe.

At any rate, nothing fishy about the situation.

Grey Wolf

[Savannah]

Rich never said the MitD was a D&D monster. Just that he didn't make it up.

[IronWilliam]

It could be a vassuthaunt. Not sure if I spelled it right, it's in one of the extra monster manuals. It's an undead that is constantly shrouded in darkness. This would be incredibly ironic. Not many explanations for powers, but it can "warp reality" which covers lots of abilities.

[Savannah]

Vasuthant (MM 3, pg 182) have "reality distortion", which only allows them to reroll bad rolls or force their opponent to reroll a good roll. It cannot explain the escape. Even the horrific vasuthant does not have any abilities that could create the escape.

[cho_j]

Rich never said the MitD was a D&D monster. Just that he didn't make it up.

But how likely do you think it is that in a DnD based comic, it's a non-DnD based monster? With the exception of brief parodies, the Giant does NOT go around using other people's copyrighted made up creatures. I think it would be cheap for him to pull out a monster from some other fantasy, and could possibly get him into legal trouble. Why do so when a DnD monster would work just as well, with the added bonus of fitting better into the OotS world?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

But how likely do you think it is that in a DnD based comic, it's a non-DnD based monster? With the exception of brief parodies, the Giant does NOT go around using other people's copyrighted made up creatures. I think it would be cheap for him to pull out a monster from some other fantasy, and could possibly get him into legal trouble. Why do so when a DnD monster would work just as well, with the added bonus of fitting better into the OotS world?

There are many creatures that are both not D&D and not copyrighted. As for if Rich did use one of them or not, I'll go back to my old argument: just because we find it unlikely doesn't mean we can discard it. Indeed, every fifteen pages or so we get someone coming to the thread and accusing us of focusing too much on D&D. Both extremes are, simply, wrong. We do not know if MitD is D&D or not, and neither is going to be discarded.

Grey Wolf

[martianmister]

So, it could be some mythologic creature like Centaur or Satyr?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So, it could be some mythologic creature like Centaur or Satyr?

Since both of those are in D&D, I'm not sure they serve to illustrate what you mean. In any case, yes, except for the fact that neither of those explain... well, pretty much anything. Maybe the appetite, in the case of the satyr. But yes, any mythical creature could do (but greek-roman mythology has been picked pretty clean by D&D).

Grey Wolf

[Snow]

What about this for the Teleport:

Words of Creation, it allows to teleport other using the teleport or greater teleport without including oneself as a target of the spell

[DaggerPen]

What about this for the Teleport:

Words of Creation, it allows to teleport other using the teleport or greater teleport without including oneself as a target of the spell

Sounds promising. What book's it from, and do you know any monsters that have it?

[IronWilliam]

It could be a Minotaur, Greathorn. MM 4 pg. 100. It's a minotaur with earth elemental powers, including "Greathorn minotaurs can warp the earth" They also "eat just about anything" and are "Gluttonous." It may also have the monster of legend template,(MM2, pg. 213) which gives it fearfull presence when it roars. This explains what happened when Haley escaped with Roy's body. They have a STR. of 24, + 10 for monster of legend. They are large, which works size-wise. The only unexplained part is the teleportation of O-chul/Mr. Stiffly, but that could be explained with latent sorcerer powers or another template. So far, this is the best idea I've come up with.

[CN the Logos]

It could be a Minotaur, Greathorn. MM 4 pg. 100. It's a minotaur with earth elemental powers, including "Greathorn minotaurs can warp the earth" They also "eat just about anything" and are "Gluttonous." It may also have the monster of legend template,(MM2, pg. 213) which gives it fearfull presence when it roars. This explains what happened when Haley escaped with Roy's body. They have a STR. of 24, + 10 for monster of legend. They are large, which works size-wise. The only unexplained part is the teleportation of O-chul/Mr. Stiffly, but that could be explained with latent sorcerer powers or another template. So far, this is the best idea I've come up with.

Monster Manual IV was 2006, the Giant figured out what MitD was in 2004. Given all the cuts and editing that happen in between the start of a book's creation and its release, I find it unlikely he would take a monster from that far ahead even if he knew about it in advance.

Personally, you can put me down for protean - possibly with the phrenic template added. While I would call use of templates "Rich created" territory on most of the monsters proposed, the protean is already naturally psionic to a degree; it makes sense that our specimen could be on the high end of the bell curve for psionic potential, and Redcloak didn't get that info when he made his knowledge check, explaining why no one thought MitD could be behind it (technically, it's possible for the protean already, but unlikely, and "I practiced wishing really hard!" would be more satisfying story-wise than " I can turn into a black hole for a bit"). The same logic could be used to suggest class levels in Wilder, but while his friendship with O-Chul was likely worth some roleplaying XP, I don't see it being enough to gain multiple class levels and don't know what else he would have done to gain them, even if becoming a Wilder is mostly inborn).

As a lark, I also reviewed the info available on the mythological Tarasque (note the one "r"). Sadly, it doesn't check out; size varies between pics but averages about right, it was able to withstand all attacks until it lost the will to fight, it apparently was pretty strong, and its father, Leviathan, was much bigger than it. But it's still a unique creature with no way to explain the escape, which is a pity, because if the joke was that D&D players wouldn't recognize the actual myth if it knocked them through a brick wall, I would have laughed my ass off.

[liq]

What Lord Bingo said. See Section 2c: Characteristics. Unless Rich presents evidence that trumps it, vulnerability to mind control is a game breaker. Unless of course the deity in particular has a specific vulnerability to mind control (just like I would consider undead that do need to eat and sleep, if there were any). Like in all things D&D, specific beats generic.

What about a half-deity? Like the OOTS version of Jesus. That's what seemed to be implied in MitD's comment that it's dad was "bigger" and ate more.

There is setup for this in terms of the increasing appearances of deities in the story. The rule of plot (which trumps all other rules) says its not going to be some obscure sourcebook monster because that wouldn't provide a dramatic payoff.

[Lord Bingo]

What about a half-deity? Like the OOTS version of Jesus. That's what seemed to be implied in MitD's comment that it's dad was "bigger" and ate more.

If you think that a nostalgic remembrance of ones father as being bigger and eating more than oneself implies that ones father is a God I think you may be reading too much into it. By that account I guess most of us posters must be of divine origin. We have no reason to believe that the MitD is of divine origin. While he is certainly powerful in his own right he has not yet proven himself omnipotent.

So, what about half deity? What other half do you wish to apply it to? By itself it does not really gain us anything in as far as it does not bring the required abilities to the table.

[Jan Mattys]

I think that before trying to identify the creature, we should agree about what kind of creature it is.

I, for one, take one thing for granted:

The Mitd is either a VERY famous and recognizable D&D monster, or something else entirely.
You see, I believe an obscure monster certainly won't make Mitd justice: I know Oots is a comic about D&D, but seriously, Rich repeatedly stated that he tries hard not to let this get in the way of readers who are not into D&D... so having a half fey/ half dragon /half vampire / black Sfrnojvnrouoi (name I just made up), while technically correct about Mitd's powers, won't be any good for the readers.

This is my personal list of what is likely to be the Mitd:
1- A d&d monster with at least a tarrasque-level of recognizability (is that even a word?). The only thing that keeps this from being my absolute plausible answer, is that by now someone would have already got it. Multiple times.

2- A monster entirely made up for plot purposes (the Snarl, or Kraagor's soul, or whatever...) is probably ruled out, since Rich said he didn't make it up... but still it's possible.

3- A reference to some monster outside of the Oots (Santa, or Batman, or Godzilla, or well, you get the idea). I'd find it weird, but Rich gave us plenty of examples of how this can be done, and be done the right way. Still it sounds a bit off.

So basically: my three "most probable" ideas all sound inadequate, and yet, the only one that might be adequate (an obscure monster from the darkest corners of a d&d manual, possibly with some homebrewed powers thrown in for good measure) seems to me totally against the purpose of the whole Mitd thing.

I admit I am lost, but I think these are the lines we should think along, in order to make any progress at all.

Also, but this is a personal theory, I've always thought that we will get to see the family of the Mitd and that it will be a major plot point. Don't forget that Serini, the guardian of the (probable) last Gate where everything will wrap up, filled a dungeon with the most dangerous and mighty monsters she could find. That would be a perfect time for Daddy in the Dark to appear.

[Bongos]

Wait a second, whoa whoa whoa, People are STILL suggesting it might be a Tarrasque? Seriously?

Well if that's the case I'm sticking with Grue then!

[CN the Logos]

I think that before trying to identify the creature, we should agree about what kind of creature it is.

I, for one, take one thing for granted:

The Mitd is either a VERY famous and recognizable D&D monster, or something else entirely.
You see, I believe an obscure monster certainly won't make Mitd justice: I know Oots is a comic about D&D, but seriously, Rich repeatedly stated that he tries hard not to let this get in the way of readers who are not into D&D... so having a half fey/ half dragon /half vampire / black Sfrnojvnrouoi (name I just made up), while technically correct about Mitd's powers, won't be any good for the readers.

This is my personal list of what is likely to be the Mitd:
1- A d&d monster with at least a tarrasque-level of recognizability (is that even a word?). The only thing that keeps this from being my absolute plausible answer, is that by now someone would have already got it. Multiple times.

2- A monster entirely made up for plot purposes (the Snarl, or Kraagor's soul, or whatever...) is probably ruled out, since Rich said he didn't make it up... but still it's possible.

3- A reference to some monster outside of the Oots (Santa, or Batman, or Godzilla, or well, you get the idea). I'd find it weird, but Rich gave us plenty of examples of how this can be done, and be done the right way. Still it sounds a bit off.

So basically: my three "most probable" ideas all sound inadequate, and yet, the only one that might be adequate (an obscure monster from the darkest corners of a d&d manual, possibly with some homebrewed powers thrown in for good measure) seems to me totally against the purpose of the whole Mitd thing.

I admit I am lost, but I think these are the lines we should think along, in order to make any progress at all.

You're forgetting, though, that the Giant came up with MitD's true identity around strip #100; back when the only people reading this comic were the ones into D&D. For him to pick a monster that was only found in one issue of a local gaming magazine that was discontinued in the 1970s would be bizarre (and in my opinion the sort of cheat he said he wouldn't pull), but taking a monster from the Epic Level Handbook would not be. We have several of those that fit.

I'm discounting the black/white slaad (because unless Rich has gotten direct permission from WotC, using their product identity as a major character rather than a two time joke about law and chaos seems risky) and the neothelid (because it's both a part of the illithid family that wouldn't make sense out of context and a bit too weak unless advanced, at which point it goes from "too big" to "way too big"), but that still leaves us three pretty good fits.

Also, but this is a personal theory, I've always thought that we will get to see the family of the Mitd and that it will be a major plot point. Don't forget that Serini, the guardian of the (probable) last Gate where everything will wrap up, filled a dungeon with the most dangerous and mighty monsters she could find. That would be a perfect time for Daddy in the Dark to appear.

That... actually might work out, except the MitD is already nigh-invulnerable based on what we've seen. What are the OotS supposed to do against an advanced version, try to make it laugh at their ineffectiveness until it passes out?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I, for one, take one thing for granted:

The Mitd is either a VERY famous and recognizable D&D monster, or something else entirely.

While we are back to the same old discussion on MitD's iconic status (please see the note in Section 1a: Rich's Words), at least you admit you have no actual evidence for your feelings. Still, there is no way to define "something as iconic as Tarrasque". Every single person that has ever participated in this thread could bring a list of creatures that they consider "as iconic as Tarrasque" and I doubt we would get two lists with the same names. For some, Tarrasque is as famous as dragons and beholders. For others, it is just an obscure high-level-ish creature, like barghest. For others (a rather big percentage), it is completely unknown and not iconic at all.

So your first point is essentially subjective. A proposed creature cannot be "not famous enough", and yet that is essentially what you tell us should be our guide. Point 2 is predicated on Rich lying to us, and once that door is open, this discussion is pointless, in that MitD need not fit anything at all. Every clue could be a misdirection. Point 3 is, of course, acceptable in this thread but I must say that your examples are rather strange.

You see, I believe an obscure monster certainly won't make Mitd justice: I know Oots is a comic about D&D, but seriously, Rich repeatedly stated that he tries hard not to let this get in the way of readers who are not into D&D... so having a half fey/ half dragon /half vampire / black Sfrnojvnrouoi (name I just made up), while technically correct about Mitd's powers, won't be any good for the readers.

<snip>

the only one that might be adequate (an obscure monster from the darkest corners of a d&d manual, possibly with some homebrewed powers thrown in for good measure) seems to me totally against the purpose of the whole Mitd thing.

I'm sorry, Jan, but you are arguing from personal conviction. It makes it very hard to have a discussion or even counter you, since it boils down to a big "because I feel so".

Nevertheless, giving it a try: Rich has turned MitD into a game. Now, you may find hard games unsatisfying, but I don't. A 4 (or 12, or 100) piece puzzle is not just silly, it is boring. I like my puzzles hard enough to retain my attention. I've watched many movies and read many books were you can guess the big secret right from the start. Some of them were enjoyable nevertheless, but in the ones that the whole idea was to keep you guessing, and yet it was obvious that the big bad was this or that guy, much of the enjoyment is lost if you can guess from the start. So quite unlike you, I reach the exact opposite of your conclusions from the same premise: MitD will only be done justice if it is indeed an obscure monster that keeps us guessing and unsure of guesses until the very day it is revealed.

You also mention MitD being accessible to non-D&D players. This is, in a word, absurd. Non D&D players don't know Tarrasque, probably don't know beholders, likely don't really know that there is more than one kind of dragon (or at least that their colours correlate to their breath type - i.e. they expect all dragons to breath fire), have no idea that there is a difference between demons and devils, etc. Notwithstanding the fact that MitD was thought up in #100, back when his jokes were far more D&D based, the whole idea that MitD must be recognisable to non D&D players doesn't withstand casual scrutiny. Non D&D players will likely have a working knowledge of greek-roman mythology, maybe another mythology if they are geeky (or at least non-American; I'd imagine chinese readers know about chinese mythology and so on), and depending on the type of geek, other 'verses as well. But Tarrasque isn't famous outside of D&D, and if by some planetary alignment it turned out that MitD was a miniature Tarrasque, most of the readers would be as baffled by it as if it were a Protean.

Finally, I'm going to call you out on the idea of a Rich template ("possibly with some homebrewed powers thrown in for good measure"). At this point, lacking evidence, I do not accept what I've come to call the "Rich template" because it is unbounded. The base needn't be obscure. After all, for all we know Rich picked a baby, and gave it all the powers of MitD (supreme strength, teleportation, earthquake...). But a Rich template is irrational, not meant as an insult, but meant as 'counter to rational discussion'. Here we compare base creatures against one another - but if a Rich template is allowed, they all fit (and then the discussion is "which one needs the least homebrew", to which the answer is, "the one that requires no Rich template at all", so we might as well ignore the possibility of a Rich template in the first place and stick with base creatures).

What about this for the Teleport:

Words of Creation, it allows to teleport other using the teleport or greater teleport without including oneself as a target of the spell

I would like to know more about this power (exact working, if nothing else, since "words of creation" doesn't sound like a name of a teleportation spell - more like another form of wish, which we already know can handle the escape) and, like DaggerPen, would like to see some creature with access to the power.

What about a half-deity? Like the OOTS version of {self-censored}. That's what seemed to be implied in MitD's comment that it's dad was "bigger" and ate more.

I'm no expert in templates, but I believe that half-dieties are immune to mind control. That said, given Rich's views on real-world religions, I very much doubt your example would fly at all.

Now, we can't conclude on 2+ limbs based solely on panel 4. It could be possible that the MitD merely had a very large palm, or a tentacle, that could be big enough to explain the first two twists on its own. However, we also have panel 10 to compare things with. The distance between rope twists is much bigger in panel 10 than in panel 4, so that can't be due to the MitD's palm size which should be constant. (The lower twist in panel 10 is not due to the floor. The twist is above the floor line even when viewed from an high angle, and the line of the rope is not consistent with hanging freely in that part.)

Panel 4, I think, can be explained with a rope coiling freely towards the ground (taking into account the comic's limitations), or simply twisted around a limb, in preparation for pulling. I'm still trying to figure out the strange 90º angle in panel 10. Unlike Nerdanel, I do not think it can be interpreted as a grabbed point. If there was a second hand at that point, there would need to be a third one keeping the rope tense off on the left, behind the curtain. On the other hand, I can see it being a point where MitD stepped on the rope (yes, I can see it is too high up but the idea of that being held there makes no more sense than it being stepped on).

As for a single tentacle, I think that would have resulted in a very different shape for the rope. In any case, if the MitD only had a single limb, it's hard to imagine how he could have moved it from a low to high position without letting the rope fall in the meanwhile and undoing his earlier work.

I disagree. MitD is not opening a garage door, he is pulling curtains apart. Now, I don't know much about theatre curtains, but the way the one in the comic is set up on a series of pulleys suggests to me that letting go wouldn't be catastrophic (i.e. I suspect there will be a counterweight somewhere). If nothing else because, since I realised that my initial explanation to MitD's participation was flawed, I'm still struggling to understand why MitD is involved at all if there was any chance of him messing up. At any rate, even if it were set up so that letting go closed them again, MitD doesn't need two grabbing limbs to keep it open - he can step on it, hold it in his teeth, etc.

(Do remember I'm not arguing that MitD has only one limb, only that we cannot categorically discard the idea)

Grey Wolf

[Lord Bingo]

One question I keep coming back to and which keeps bothering me is this: What kinds of creature would you 1) lure out of hiding with a steak, 2) catch by dropping a cage on it, and 3) sell to a circus? The SBGH's do all this apparently knowing full well (at least they think they do) what it is -and hence what it is capable of. You sure as hell would not do that with something like a Pit Fiend and expect to live past the next two seconds!

Now I know this is a classic way to catch stuff in comics/cartoons and I get that "rule of funny" might play a part here, but still... In a way I feel that this is as legitimate a criteria to use for exclusion as whether or not a creature conforms to the big three (I am not suggesting we discard the latter, mind you).

Would you drop a cage on any of our forerunners? (Keep in mind that the OOTS world is a much more fantastical world than our own and what passes for exotic on earth might be utterly trivial in OOTSverse and that thus a larger variety of creatures might be thought of as fair game for hunters of the exotic)

Now, this method of elimination is hardly as stringent as the big three as a criteria for candidature but it might be a supplement that is worth considering. I still lack a suitable creature to suggest that I would drop a cage on, however...

[Grey_Wolf_c]

One question I keep coming back to and which keeps bothering me is this: What kinds of creature would you 1) lure out of hiding with a steak, 2) catch by dropping a cage on it, and 3) sell to a circus? The SBGH's do all this apparently knowing full well (at least they think they do) what it is -and hence what it is capable of. You sure as hell would not do that with something like a Pit Fiend and expect to live past the next two seconds!

I don't think that the SBGH where trying to catch MitD at all - after all, they were surprised at what they had caught. Maybe they were out to hunt lions for a zoo, and their lure got something different. I think my impression comes from the line "I never expected to see one of these in this part of the world." It both suggests it is the first time they've seen it, and that it wasn't their primary objective.

Now, I can see it the other way round too (they saw it the previous week, they've just spend a week luring it in, and now they've finally captured it, he uses those words to point out how lucky they've been), but then we get to the key point: MitD isn't restrained by that box. If the SBGH are to be trusted to know what they are doing, and are out to catch an MitD, they'd be using something MitD cannot break out of. No, I think it more plausible they were hunting something else, got lucky catching the one MitD that wouldn't immediately turn their cage into a splinter fest, and when it became obvious this was the case, they approached.

Grey Wolf

[Lord Bingo]

I don't think that the SBGH where trying to catch MitD at all - after all, they were surprised at what they had caught. Maybe they were out to hunt lions for a zoo, and their lure got something different. I think my impression comes from the line "I never expected to see one of these in this part of the world." It both suggests it is the first time they've seen it, and that it wasn't their primary objective.

Now, I can see it the other way round too (they saw it the previous week, they've just spend a week luring it in, and now they've finally captured it, he uses those words to point out how lucky they've been), but then we get to the key point: MitD isn't restrained by that box. If the SBGH are to be trusted to know what they are doing, and are out to catch an MitD, they'd be using something MitD cannot break out of. No, I think it more plausible they were hunting something else, got lucky catching the one MitD that wouldn't immediately turn their cage into a splinter fest, and when it became obvious this was the case, they approached.

Grey Wolf

That explanation is certainly an option too and admittedly far more likely than what I have assumed up until now (them lying in wait just behind the next panel), but they still sell it to a circus! If by pure chance they had unintentionally caught fx a Pit Fiend and found it to be relatively docile selling something like that to a circus still seems strange to me. On the other hand, what else could they do with it? + they need the money, it seems.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That explanation is certainly an option too and admittedly far more likely than what I have assumed up until now (them lying in wait just behind the next panel), but they still sell it to a circus! If by pure chance they had unintentionally caught fx a Pit Fiend and found it to be relatively docile selling something like that to a circus still seems strange to me. On the other hand, what else could they do with it? + they need the money, it seems.

You need to read "The new Noah", by Gerald Durrell. This is a real life guy that spent much of his life hunting down the weirdest and strangest animals to send to zoos (he also made sure they would eat zoo food and survive the trip before sending them). Just because he was trying to get hold of a known creature, he would have never turned down the chance to take an unknown one instead (and indeed, those make the bulk of the anecdotes of the book). The SBGH's actions are perfectly rational (if a bit mercenary). They may even be the ones responsible for MitD's love of stew).

Grey Wolf

[Jan Mattys]

While we are back to the same old discussion on MitD's iconic status (please see the note in Section 1a: Rich's Words), at least you admit you have no actual evidence for your feelings. Still, there is no way to define "something as iconic as Tarrasque". Every single person that has ever participated in this thread could bring a list of creatures that they consider "as iconic as Tarrasque" and I doubt we would get two lists with the same names. For some, Tarrasque is as famous as dragons and beholders. For others, it is just an obscure high-level-ish creature, like barghest. For others (a rather big percentage), it is completely unknown and not iconic at all.

So your first point is essentially subjective. A proposed creature cannot be "not famous enough", and yet that is essentially what you tell us should be our guide. Point 2 is predicated on Rich lying to us, and once that door is open, this discussion is pointless, in that MitD need not fit anything at all. Every clue could be a misdirection. Point 3 is, of course, acceptable in this thread but I must say that your examples are rather strange.



I'm sorry, Jan, but you are arguing from personal conviction. It makes it very hard to have a discussion or even counter you, since it boils down to a big "because I feel so".

Nevertheless, giving it a try: Rich has turned MitD into a game. Now, you may find hard games unsatisfying, but I don't. A 4 (or 12, or 100) piece puzzle is not just silly, it is boring. I like my puzzles hard enough to retain my attention. I've watched many movies and read many books were you can guess the big secret right from the start. Some of them were enjoyable nevertheless, but in the ones that the whole idea was to keep you guessing, and yet it was obvious that the big bad was this or that guy, much of the enjoyment is lost if you can guess from the start. So quite unlike you, I reach the exact opposite of your conclusions from the same premise: MitD will only be done justice if it is indeed an obscure monster that keeps us guessing and unsure of guesses until the very day it is revealed.

You also mention MitD being accessible to non-D&D players. This is, in a word, absurd. Non D&D players don't know Tarrasque, probably don't know beholders, likely don't really know that there is more than one kind of dragon (or at least that their colours correlate to their breath type - i.e. they expect all dragons to breath fire), have no idea that there is a difference between demons and devils, etc. Notwithstanding the fact that MitD was thought up in #100, back when his jokes were far more D&D based, the whole idea that MitD must be recognisable to non D&D players doesn't withstand casual scrutiny. Non D&D players will likely have a working knowledge of greek-roman mythology, maybe another mythology if they are geeky (or at least non-American; I'd imagine chinese readers know about chinese mythology and so on), and depending on the type of geek, other 'verses as well. But Tarrasque isn't famous outside of D&D, and if by some planetary alignment it turned out that MitD was a miniature Tarrasque, most of the readers would be as baffled by it as if it were a Protean.

Finally, I'm going to call you out on the idea of a Rich template ("possibly with some homebrewed powers thrown in for good measure"). At this point, lacking evidence, I do not accept what I've come to call the "Rich template" because it is unbounded. The base needn't be obscure. After all, for all we know Rich picked a baby, and gave it all the powers of MitD (supreme strength, teleportation, earthquake...). But a Rich template is irrational, not meant as an insult, but meant as 'counter to rational discussion'. Here we compare base creatures against one another - but if a Rich template is allowed, they all fit (and then the discussion is "which one needs the least homebrew", to which the answer is, "the one that requires no Rich template at all", so we might as well ignore the possibility of a Rich template in the first place and stick with base creatures).

This is what I get for throwing out ideas after three full threads I didn't bother to read completely
I suppose you're right, you make a lot of good points.
Especially the one about Mitd being a guessing game now, which somewhat justifies the obscurity of the Mitd.

I consider myself humbled by your counter-reasonings

[Nerdanel]

What about this for the Teleport:

Words of Creation, it allows to teleport other using the teleport or greater teleport without including oneself as a target of the spell

Words of Creation

You have learned a few of the words that were spoken to create the world.

Prerequisite: Int 15, Cha 15, base Will save bonus +5.
Benefit: You can use the Words of Creation to enhance bardic music, to help cast good spells and create good magic items, and to enhance the process of creation (see Words of Creation in Chapter 2).
Normal: A nonevil creature that tries to utter the Words Creation without learning them properly is affected as by a feeblemind spell, while an evil character is struck dead. Fortunately, it is impossible to make someone speak the Words of Creation against his will, because their pronunciation is so exacting.

I don't have access to the text of Chapter 2 of The Book of Exalted Deeds.

(The MitD obviously doesn't suffer from Feeblemind since that's a very drastic condition, so untrained use is out.)

[Azukar]

Words of Creation

'You have learned a few of the words that were used to create the world', eh? An interesting fit if the MiTD has some connection to the Snarl..

[Grey_Wolf_c]

This is what I get for throwing out ideas after three full threads I didn't bother to read completely
I suppose you're right, you make a lot of good points.
Especially the one about Mitd being a guessing game now, which somewhat justifies the obscurity of the Mitd.

I consider myself humbled by your counter-reasonings

Eh, you give me too much credit. At the end of the day, I have read all three threads, so I have accumulated a lot of arguments in the process. Much of what I said is mine, but some I cribbed from other users. I was only giving you the condensed version of the thread's wisdom. That doesn't mean I'm right, though - only that I make sense. I could produce another block of text countering that MitD must be obscure, too. Bottom line: there is no evidence either way.

Anyway, good to have you around, you produced a good reasoning.

Words of Creation

So, nothing in there suggests a teleportation that doesn't include the caster...

Grey Wolf

[Qwertystop]

So, nothing in there suggests a teleportation that doesn't include the caster...
Grey Wolf

Well, it says it can "help cast good spells", and if "good" here means the spell works exceptionally well, as opposed to alignment (If it was alignment it would probably say "A spell with the "Good" descriptor"), it could be a possible result of a Words-enhanced Teleport or Greater Teleport. It might help to have a clearer definition of what is meant by that phrase, and if my interpretation is correct, then a few official examples of the enhancements would be helpful.

[Nerdanel]

The Book of Exalted Deeds is all about good-aligned stuff, so that would probably go for the spells affected by this feat too.

[Lord Bingo]

Words of creation is very unlikely -The MitD would still have to be a caster to use them. They cannot be used with spell like abilities and supernatural abilities nor can they be used to cast a spell on their own.

[silversaraph]

Question, are we still supposed to add ideas/tweaks to suggested creatures where the main issue is a copyright violation? If so, munchlax/snorlax has the skill amnesia, current description "The user temporarily empties its mind to forget its concerns. It sharply raises the user's Sp. Def stat". This would explain the comedic "gate, what gate?", and other instances where he completely forgets what he was just told, especially since these instances happen during or before a battle/big event.

Also, interesting little tidbit about munchlax specifically: "Though Munchlax appears to be dark blue in color, it belongs to the black color group".

I'm sure you can find issues if you try, and of course there's the copyright issues, I just think that there's a lot of potential with snorlax/munchlax.

Also, please don't bite my nor anyone else's head off for a suggestion, even if it does have flaws... it tends to scare people off from posting something. Of course, disproving something is okay and often a good thing... just nobody get too cruel, please!