MitD III: You are likely to suggest Tarrasque

[Kish]

But I'm hungry!

[LuPuWei]

I forget whether or not hybrids have in general been discussed (and/or discarded) but if so (and if it isn't too much trouble) could you include a bit about them in the first post so the urge to keep suggesting various mind-boggling hybrids dies down?

[Lord Bingo]

Question, are we still supposed to add ideas/tweaks to suggested creatures where the main issue is a copyright violation? If so, munchlax/snorlax has the skill amnesia, current description "The user temporarily empties its mind to forget its concerns. It sharply raises the user's Sp. Def stat". This would explain the comedic "gate, what gate?", and other instances where he completely forgets what he was just told, especially since these instances happen during or before a battle/big event.

Also, interesting little tidbit about munchlax specifically: "Though Munchlax appears to be dark blue in color, it belongs to the black color group".

Copyright issues aside the main issue with Snorlax/Munchlax is that it is unable to explain the escape.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I forget whether or not hybrids have in general been discussed (and/or discarded) but if so (and if it isn't too much trouble) could you include a bit about them in the first post so the urge to keep suggesting various mind-boggling hybrids dies down?

It's already there: Section 2d: Templated/Mixed lineage Creature. Mixed creatures simply have no evidence at this time, since for all we know MitD has a single parent (see also Section 2c: Family).

Copyright issues aside the main issue with Snorlax/Munchlax is that it is unable to explain the escape.

No, that is not an issue. Metronome can reproduce the effect, with a good nudge of plot-luck.

Grey Wolf

[ShinyRocks]

I don't think this has been covered. Apologies if it has.

If we're discussing holding things, the first panel here is quite interesting. We see the MITD holding the bucket that he's eating from. Obviously, as you'd expect, we don't see any limbs (though for a second I thought the bucket handle hanging down was a skinny little arm and was very excited), but I don't think that means he's levitating the bucket up to his head.

It also implies that his limbs are long enough to reach out through the window in the box to reach the bucket (as at the bottom of the previous comic, the bucket is in the floor - the serving goblins do not hand it directly to the MITD).

Unless he just lifts the whole box up and grabs it, but in that case he wouldn't need to eat it through the window in the box.

Also pretty strong evidence that he has a 'humanoid' face, or at least one with a mouth below the eyes, given where the stew is pouring.

Now, it's probably all incidental, designed as part of the scene of the MITD sharing his stew with Mr Stiffly, but strictly speaking there'd be no need to see him eat for that, and besides, if this thread isn't about obsessively over-analysing every clue, what is it for?

[Gift Jeraff]

Unless he just lifts the whole box up and grabs it, but in that case he wouldn't need to eat it through the window in the box.

It would also be impossible because, if it's the same box from SoD, the bottom isn't open.

[Swordpriest]

I wasn't going to participate further, but here --

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html

-- he eats the paper with a mouth directly below his eyes. And in Frame 7, he raises the message pouch to his face and sniffs it, confirming that he has a regular face, and also has a nose.

Does the presence of a nose indicate that he can't be a Dream Larva? The pictures of Dream Larvae I can find make them appear to be noseless, but I am no expert on the subject.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

In Frame 7, he raises the message pouch to his face and sniffs it, confirming that he has a regular face, and also has a nose.

He could be sniffing it with his mouth.

GW

[DaggerPen]

He could be sniffing it with his mouth.

GW

... how do you sniff something with your mouth?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

... how do you sniff something with your mouth?

Schlock mercenary reference. All it takes is smell receptacles inside the mouth. You absorb air, and palate it. indeed, that's how we humans taste most of our food.

GW

[Lord Bingo]

Metronome can reproduce the effect, with a good nudge of plot-luck.

Grey Wolf

Well, that is just downright depressing if all that stand in the way of the MitD being a big fat Pokemon is "copyright". I actually think Snorlax/Munchlax is a far better fit -fluffwise too- compared to all our present forerunners

I will have to look a bit further into copyright and what constitutes "fair use".

[Lix Lorn]

Schlock mercenary reference. All it takes is smell receptacles inside the mouth. You absorb air, and palate it. indeed, that's how we humans taste most of our food.

GW

New theory!
MitD is a carbosilicate amorph!
The escape was a voice activated teraport device hidden inside him. His dad was big cause he'd recently absorbed many enemies. And he's both beautiful and ugly because... he looks like a pile of poo, but has high cha?

(joking)

[DaggerPen]

Schlock mercenary reference. All it takes is smell receptacles inside the mouth. You absorb air, and palate it. indeed, that's how we humans taste most of our food.

GW

Huh. Go figure.

We know of any D&D monsters that do that?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Huh. Go figure.

We know of any D&D monsters that do that?

Not personally, but I started down this path of reasoning by thinking how a dream larva might smell something, if it doesn't have a nose. I ain't saying it's correct, only saying that we can't assume MitD has a nose. Likely, yes, but not certain (i.e. same reasoning with "number of grabbing limbs" we had last page).

Edit:

New theory!
MitD is a carbosilicate amorph!
The escape was a voice activated teraport device hidden inside him. His dad was big cause he'd recently absorbed many enemies. And he's both beautiful and ugly because... he looks like a pile of poo, but has high cha?

(joking)

You know, it fits surprisingly well... Massive strength, appetite, comes from a universe with teraport, eats anything... Rich could even easily obtain permission to use it from Tayler.

Grey Wolf

[ThirdEmperor]

New theory!
MitD is a carbosilicate amorph!
The escape was a voice activated teraport device hidden inside him. His dad was big cause he'd recently absorbed many enemies. And he's both beautiful and ugly because... he looks like a pile of poo, but has high cha?

(joking)

I really want to believe this. That would be truly awesome.

[Lord Bingo]

Ok. This copyright stuff is a hairy busyness, but here goes:

The use of Pokémon references in OOTS is nothing new, so in a way one could argue that Rich would not be getting in deeper by using a single creature in a humorous parodic strip. Equally, we have seen George Lucas’ intellectual property parodied in shows such as Robot Chicken without Lucas Arts taking legal steps. Granted, I do not know whether or not the guys behind Robot Chicken went to Lucas for permission but given how protective Lucas is of his work I find it unlikely it was given.

Criticism and Parody are major exceptions to the the laws against using settings and characters from other peoples work without their permission. You can use other peoples work for the purpose of making fun off it, so to speak.

On top of this, it is unthinkable that this use of Snorlax/Munchlax would actually hurt the Pokémon brand.

It is equally unthinkable that this use would loose the copyright holder income as a result thereof. Even though Rich is making a living of OOTS and hence in a small part of the MitD he can hardly be sued for damages.

Personally I do not think that using Snorlax/Munchlax and the pokéballs will get Rich in trouble. Still, I am no expert on these somewhat fuzzy rules and I seem to remember that the arguments I have brought here have been countered before.

I think Snorlax/Munchlax should be on the forerunners list in spite of the possible (but IMO unlikely) copyright issues.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Lord Bingo, the copyright issue has been brought up several times before. Rich cannot claim he is either parodying or criticism Pokemon with his character of MitD, since none of its appearances have been tied to Pokemon at all (and yes, every single appearance would count, even before the reveal). He is also making money by selling stories including MitD. Major corporations are very deffensive when it comes to their IP, and Nintendo in particular has been known to threaten to sue for far lesser uses of their IP.

Grey Wolf

[Lix Lorn]

You know, it fits surprisingly well... Massive strength, appetite, comes from a universe with teraport, eats anything... Rich could even easily obtain permission to use it from Tayler.

Grey Wolf

Is he actually that strong?

That said, funny as it would be, it would kinda be 'lolwtf'. Suddenly throwing in sci-fi... it seems unlikely. That's why only joked.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Is he actually that strong?

Judge for yourself: Schlock using as a flyswatter a piece of metal that is heavy enough to protect from heavy weapons fire.

Grey Wolf

[Lix Lorn]

A good point. xD

[Lord Bingo]

Lord Bingo, the copyright issue has been brought up several times before. Rich cannot claim he is either parodying or criticism Pokemon with his character of MitD, since none of its appearances have been tied to Pokemon at all (and yes, every single appearance would count, even before the reveal). He is also making money by selling stories including MitD. Major corporations are very deffensive when it comes to their IP, and Nintendo in particular has been known to threaten to sue for far lesser uses of their IP.

Grey Wolf

I understand that we have discussed this before. However, if Nintendo is so ultra protective of their intellectual property why haven't they sued Rich for the Pokéballs? Granted, the Pokéballs are not characters but none the less they have been quite prominently and consistently used in the comic. In their case Rich has not made any reference to Pokémon other than what is inherent to the use of the ball itself, nor has he to my knowledge acknowledged Nintendo as the holder of that piece of intellectual property.

Also threatening to sue and actually suing are two different things -there is no guarantee that Nintendo would actually win any of these cases if it made it to court. Often strong arming by big companies is enough to discourage use of intellectual property and these cases are most often settled out of court.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I understand that we have discussed this before. However, if Nintendo is so ultra protective of their intellectual property why haven't they sued Rich for the Pokéballs? Granted, the Pokéballs are not characters but none the less they have been quite prominently and consistently used in the comic. In their case Rich has not made any reference to Pokémon other than what is inherent to the use of the ball itself, nor has he to my knowledge acknowledged Nintendo as the holder of that piece of intellectual property.

His use of pokeballs does fall under parody rules, unlike MitD. He is making fun of both Pokemon and D&D Paladin mounts at the same time.

Also threatening to sue and actually suing are two different things -there is no guarantee that Nintendo would actually win any of these cases if it made it to court. Often strong arming by big companies is enough to discourage use of intellectual property and these cases are most often settled out of court.

Rich's full income is the comic. He does not make enough money to stand up in court to Nintendo's army of lawyers, particularly since he doesn't have a case. Nintendo wouldn't have to settle: if MitD is a Pokemon, Nintendo can sue for copyright violation, and win. Rich would be fined for many, many thousands of dollars, and be ruined. Since Rich is very much aware of copyright law, I very much doubt he would even consider this.

Grey Wolf

[Lord Bingo]

If Nintendo sued Rich the case would likely be settled out of court in any event. That does not mean that the settlement would not include payment in the form of compensation.

Rich use of Pokéballs make fun of the Paladin's mount and the mechanics of the way it is summoned, it does not make fun of the Pokéballs and Pokémon. The Pokéballs are used in the exact same way as they are in the the original source material (Pokémon): "X, I choose you!". Rich is using the balls in the same way he would be using Snorlax/Munchlax -to make fun of D&D, not the other way around.

I do agree that the circumstance that Rich makes a considerable part of his income from the comic and its derivates is a problem if he were to be sued, but just as I cannot 100% justify that Rich will not get sued if the MitD turns out to be Snorlax/Munchlax, it cannot be explained why he has not yet been sued for his blatant use of the Pokéballs.

I would wager that the fact that the entire comic is a parody of D&D likely protects him from being sued and that it would also protect him did such a case make it to court.

In any event we can debate this endlessly

I will reiterate my sentiment: that Snorlax/Munchlax should be allowed a place amongst the forerunners because it is such an amazingly good fit for the MitD in spite of the copyright issues that may or may not pose a problem.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Rich use of Pokéballs make fun of the Paladin's mount and the mechanics of the way it is summoned, it does not make fun of the Pokéballs and Pokémon. The Pokéballs are used in the exact same way as they are in the the original source material (Pokémon): "X, I choose you!". Rich is using the balls in the same way he would be using Snorlax/Munchlax -to make fun of D&D, not the other way around.

No, you are wrong. The pokeballs are being used in a parody that equates Paladin summoning their mounts to children summoning their pokemon. Parody cuts both ways - making fun of the Paladins in that they are like pokemon children, and making fun of pokemon that they copied a D&D mechanic. The fact that he uses the exact wording of pokemon is part of the parody. The whole thing, played for laughs, is clearly under parody rules, and thus perfectly legal.

it cannot be explained why he has not yet been sued for his blatant use of the Pokéballs.

You are wrong. It can be explained: it is clearly parody.

I would wager that the fact that the entire comic is a parody of D&D likely protects him from being sued and that it would also protect him did such a case make it to court.

Fair use doesn't work that way. He cannot be sued for any D&D element since his comic is a parody of D&D mechanics. He cannot be sued for any trademarked or IP element that he parodies. He can be sued or arm-wrestled into oblivion by any element that is IP and not part of a joke. Thus, his use of mind flayers, beholders, dark elves, pokeballs, cast of Final Fantasy, etc. have all been part of jokes, and clearly so. MitD is not part of any joke that has to do with his type of creature.

I will reiterate my sentiment: that Snorlax/Munchlax should be allowed a place amongst the forerunners because it is such an amazingly good fit for the MitD in spite of the copyright issues that may or may not pose a problem.

And I will reiterate my explanation why not: it is a major problem for MitD to be copyrighted. Such use on Rich's part is indefensible.

Grey Wolf

[Lord Bingo]

If you can argue that Rich' use of Pokéballs pokes fun at Pokémon Children then certainly if the MitD is a Pokémon you can argue that it pokes fun at Pokémons as being childish/ridiculous.

Anyways, I got this of http://w2.eff.org/IP/eff_fair_use_faq.php

There are no clear-cut rules for deciding what's fair use and there are no "automatic" classes of fair uses. Fair use is decided by a judge, on a case by case basis, after balancing the four factors listed in section 107 of the Copyright statute. The factors to be considered include:

1) The purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes -- Courts are more likely to find fair use where the use is for noncommercial purposes.

2) The nature of the copyrighted work -- A particular use is more likely to be fair where the copied work is factual rather than creative.

3) The amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole -- A court will balance this factor toward a finding of fair use where the amount taken is small or insignificant in proportion to the overall work.

4) The effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work -- If the court finds the newly created work is not a substitute product for the copyrighted work, it will be more likely to weigh this factor in favor of fair use.

Now:

1) Certainly as Rich makes money of the comic his use is commercial while the purpose of using the exact creature/object is parody/fun.

2) Pokémon is a creative work.

3) There are more than 500 Pokémons, so using one is not really a substantial part of the overall work. In the grand scheme of things using Pokéballs, which feature much more prominently in Pokémon, seems a much more serious violation of copyright.

4) The use of Pokémon "effects" in OOTS has no detrimental effect upon the Pokémon marked, nor can it be said to be any kind of substitute for any Pokémon related product.

I do not see the problem.

I will pipe down now

[Kish]

Actually...

"Pokemounts" were added in 3.5ed, long after Pokemon was out. Paladins' mounts were "found" once, after which they were permanent and physical, before that. Not that this meaningfully detracts from your point, but, I can guarantee you Rich wasn't accusing Pokemon of copying D&D.

[Nerdanel]

"Sorry for the smell"

In lack of new evidence, I'm going to look at which SRD psionic powers that the MitD could use have an olfactory display.

Would require a feat (since the MitD can't cast as a Psychic Warrior with that Wisdom):
Expansion - Psychic Warrior 1
Graft Weapon - Psychic Warrior 3

Possibly would require a feat (specialist powers; some of these are also Psychic Warrior powers but that's irrelevant):
Thicken Skin - Egoist 1
Chameleon - Egoist 2
Ectoplasmic Form - Egoist 3
Fate Link - Seer 3
Metamorphosis - Egoist 4
Reddopsi - Kineticist 5
Fission - Egoist 7 (This power is also granted by the Phrenic template.)
Metafaculty - Seer 9

Would not require a feat:
Demoralize - Psion/Wilder 1
Grease, Psionic - Psion/Wilder 1
Vigor - Psion/Wilder 1
Detect Hostile Intent - Psion/Wilder 2
Levitate, Psionic - Psion/Wilder 2
Ectoplasmic Shambler - Psion/Wilder 5
Shatter Mind Blank - Psion/Wilder 5
Contingency, Psionic - Psion/Wilder 6
Suspend Life - Psion/Wilder 6
Mind Blank, Psionic - Psion/Wilder 8

------------

Well, I'm not sure what that's worth, but I'm going to highlight Demoralize. The MitD could cast it as a level 1 Wilder, needing only 11 Cha minimum, which is within limits of plausibility. Demoralize could also help explain the circus scene.

Some notes:

- Demoralize works in a radius spread centered on the caster (30 feet unless augmented). The humans nearby were all affected. The unaffected goblins were sitting in a corner, farthest from the MitD.

- The MitD says it's hard being seen by so many. This could be because manifesting Demoralize (without knowing exactly what he's doing) is part of his act, and if there are big crowds, he will need to augment his Demoralize. If he only has one level of Wilder (which would be likely since he apparently hasn't been adventuring much and almost certainly has a large level adjustment) he would need to use Wild Surge to augment his Demoralize, risking Psychic Enervation.

- The vomiting man could have been affected by the olfactory display of Demoralize. No too people describe olfactory displays the same way. It is possible that for that particular target the smell of the display was an intensely unpleasant one while other members of the audience were luckier.

[Bothi]

Ok, heres what I think...

He says he isnt like the rest of his kind, so I assume that his kind is ruthless, and enjoys the dark.
He wont eat children, but that means he CAN eat children.
Since it is Xykon trying to make him eat children, we can assume that they are whole, because cut up children wouldnt be as scary
Based on the assumption that he can eat kids whole leads to the assumption that he either has a very large mouth, can unhinge his jaws, or that his upper and lower jaws are seperate.

[Bothi]

Since he is unlike his kind, and is nicer and weaker than his kin, why would Xykon take him? I belive that he is the only one of his kind that can cast spells. ANOTHER THEORY- perhaps hes some kind of shapeshifter.

[Qwertystop]

Ok, heres what I think...

He says he isnt like the rest of his kind, so I assume that his kind is ruthless, and enjoys the dark.
He wont eat children, but that means he CAN eat children.
Since it is Xykon trying to make him eat children, we can assume that they are whole, because cut up children wouldnt be as scary
Based on the assumption that he can eat kids whole leads to the assumption that he either has a very large mouth, can unhinge his jaws, or that his upper and lower jaws are seperate.

The children are live, as seen at the end of the strip where MitD tells O-Chul about them. Also, there is an ability called Swallow Whole, the possession of which is not necessarily relevant to the size of the eater's mouth.

Since he is unlike his kind, and is nicer and weaker than his kin, why would Xykon take him? I belive that he is the only one of his kind that can cast spells. ANOTHER THEORY- perhaps hes some kind of shapeshifter.

When Xykon met him, all he knew about MitD is what he looked like.

Also, don't double-post. There's an edit button for a reason.