Monk Dips (3.5) When, who, and how long?

[Coidzor]

Basically, I was just wondering who reaps the best benefits from monk dipping, how much of a dip they take, and whether they always just start as monks then become ex-monks or what?

Saw them mentioned once or twice as ok/good for dipping a few times and decided to see what you all could share with me. Did a cursory search of the boards, but didn't see any sort of consolidated discussion of the matter. ...Actually, come to think of it, is there a dipping handbook?

So, what I see right now is basically (Core-only, I haven't looked over the UA monk variants just yet) Combat Reflexes (or Deflect arrow) & Evasion by putting in two levels and losing one BAB. Not sure whether the Stunning Fist (& to a lesser extent the Improved Grapple option) from the first level can be useful for someone who is dipping into it.

[Akal Saris]

I don't think any builds I've made have ever dipped more than 2 levels in monk. Usually they are nice for stacking wis-based abilities or if you need a specific set of feats, which are greatly expanded once you add in variant monks from unearthed arcana, which get feats like dodge and mobility.

For example, a swordsage going into master of 9 gets a lot out of 2 levels of either the "cobra strike" or "sleeping tiger" variant monk, since that gives improved unarmed strike, and either dodge or improved initiative, all necessary feats for the prestige class.

[Runestar]

No more than 2 lvs, which nets you +3 to all saves, flurry (or decisive strike), 3 bonus feats, evasion and wis mod to AC.

Stunning fist remains useful because its DC is independent of monk lv (based off total class lvs), though you won't get as many uses (and your save DC will stink if you didn't boost wis).

[Jack_Simth]

Generally, the people who benefit most from Monk dips are ... Druids, especially those who decided to take the Vow of Poverty, and they only really want one level. Those who did NOT take the Vow of Poverty are usually better off locating a Monk's Belt.

[Curmudgeon]

Monk 1 is enough for you to benefit from training with a Sparring Dummy of the Master, which enables you to take 10' steps; it also boosts all your saves +2.

Monk 2 allows you to take the Invisible Fist ACF (Exemplars of Evil), which trades evasion for the ability to become invisible for 1 full round, every 3 rounds. (Monk 2 also boosts all your saves another +1.) At level 9 Invisible Fist adds the ability to Blink (instead of improved evasion).

Monk 20, if you make it that far, makes you an outsider.

While the class has lots of different features, most of the problem is that these features aren't synergistic. Fast movement doesn't help with flurry of blows (in fact, they're at cross-purposes). Purity of Body, Wholeness of Body, Diamond Body, Timeless Body, and Empty Body, despite the names, have nothing in common.

Unless you've got some really specific need that only one of these abilities can satisfy, there's little incentive to keep taking Monk levels. Levels 1 and 2 give significant benefits, and after that it's a lot of investment for not much reward.

[Telonius]

A one-level dip in Monk can be nice for a Rogue. Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, good saves, same attack bonus if you're using fractional, better hp. All you lose is a couple skill points. (And really, you're a Rogue. You'll live). That said, a one-level dip in anything but Commoner or possibly Truenamer is better than Rogue20.

[Kylarra]

I believe the commonly cited dips are Monk1/2.

[PId6]

I believe the commonly cited dips are Monk1/2.

My favorite: Monk 0.

[Optimystik]

Generally, the people who benefit most from Monk dips are ... Druids, especially those who decided to take the Vow of Poverty, and they only really want one level. Those who did NOT take the Vow of Poverty are usually better off locating a Monk's Belt.

Ardents benefit even more thanks to Tashalatora, which advances AC, flurry, and fist dice. They also love Vow of Poverty and don't even notice the two lost levels.

[Amphetryon]

Totemist could conceivably derive some benefit from a 2 level dip into Monk, given the class's propensity for natural attacks.

[Greenish]

Totemist could conceivably derive some benefit from a 2 level dip into Monk, given the class's propensity for natural attacks.

What does Monk 2 give to natural attacks?

[Amphetryon]

A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

Rather than just:

You are considered to be armed even when unarmed —that is, you do not provoke attacks or opportunity from armed opponents when you attack them while unarmed. However, you still get an attack of opportunity against any opponent who makes an unarmed attack on you.

[Il_Vec]

You get that from Monk 1. Greenish's question was what is the benefit of the second level.

[Greenish]

Rather than just:

Would you use Unarmed Strikes with your Natural Weapons? Hmm, why not.

Overwhelming Attack Monk 2 with Totemist, using Unarmed Strikes with iteratives and then all natural weapons as secondaries. You get to Power Attack with Natural Weapons, right?

[hotel_papa]

Kung-Fu Genius and a level of monk can mean a lot to an Int based class like Factotum or Wizard. It is a feat from Dragon Magazine, reprinted in Dragon Magazine Compendium (a very cool book) which must be taken at or before the first level of monk, which replaces Wis with Int for all Wis-based monk abilities. (Essentially AC and Stunning Fist DC's). It gets insane at higher levels when you've bumped the holy living hell out of your INT, and makes a factotum or wizards' casting of Fox's Cunning an AC booster as well.

[Eldariel]

Kung-Fu Genius and a level of monk can mean a lot to an Int based class like Factotum or Wizard. It is a feat from Dragon Magazine, reprinted in Dragon Magazine Compendium (a very cool book) which must be taken at or before the first level of monk, which replaces Wis with Int for all Wis-based monk abilities. (Essentially AC and Stunning Fist DC's). It gets insane at higher levels when you've bumped the holy living hell out of your INT, and makes a factotum or wizards' casting of Fox's Cunning an AC booster as well.

Carmendine Monk [Champions of Valor] is better though FR-specific. Also, Ascetic Mage works for Sorcerers to the same effect. That said, neither is worth it to actually multiclass into Monk in either unless you're going for some weird Gish-build as casters' defenses shouldn't be mainly AC-based.

[Optimystik]

You get that from Monk 1. Greenish's question was what is the benefit of the second level.

Imp. Grapple + Evasion would be my guess.

[Delusion]

Monk 1 is enough for you to benefit from training with a Sparring Dummy of the Master, which enables you to take 10' steps; it also boosts all your saves +2.

Which book is this thing in? Looks interesting for a swift hunter.

[Greenish]

Which book is this thing in? Looks interesting for a swift hunter.

Arms & Equipment Guide.

[Edit]: It requires monk levels or the ability to autosucceed on an UMD check.

[Lycanthromancer]

Monk 1 is enough for you to benefit from training with a Sparring Dummy of the Master, which enables you to take 10' steps; it also boosts all your saves +2.

That's what the gods made UMD for.

Monk 2 allows you to take the Invisible Fist ACF (Exemplars of Evil), which trades evasion for the ability to become invisible for 1 full round, every 3 rounds. (Monk 2 also boosts all your saves another +1.) At level 9 Invisible Fist adds the ability to Blink (instead of improved evasion).

The first isn't bad, but you're better off using soulmelds for the second.

Monk 20, if you make it that far, makes you an outsider.

Nope. It just treats you as an outsider for various effects, meaning that you're immune to enlarge person, and can now be banished. It'd be a good thing for stuff like charm person, but with a monk's saves and the prevalence of things like mind blank at those levels, this isn't worthy of consideration.

While the class has lots of different features, most of the problem is that these features aren't synergistic. Fast movement doesn't help with flurry of blows (in fact, they're at cross-purposes). Purity of Body, Wholeness of Body, Diamond Body, Timeless Body, and Empty Body, despite the names, have nothing in common.

Unless you've got some really specific need that only one of these abilities can satisfy, there's little incentive to keep taking Monk levels. Levels 1 and 2 give significant benefits, and after that it's a lot of investment for not much reward.

Very, very, very true.

[2xMachina]

Carmendine Monk [Champions of Valor] is better though FR-specific. Also, Ascetic Mage works for Sorcerers to the same effect. That said, neither is worth it to actually multiclass into Monk in either unless you're going for some weird Gish-build as casters' defenses shouldn't be mainly AC-based.

Fluff restriction though.

[Curmudgeon]

That's what the gods made UMD for.

It'll work, but you're going to need to make 224 successive DC 21 Use Magic Device checks, without fail. That's going to require a character with a lot more levels behind them (in whatever non-Monk classes) than simply Monk 1.

[Seffbasilisk]

Custom magic item of +5 to UMD: 2,500
Masterwork tool (wand bracer?) +2
Skill Focus UMD (Later retrained): +3
Heroism +2
Inspire Competence via Bard that can be rented: +2
Circlet of Persuasion +3
Aid Another +2

That's a +19. Add in a Charisma of 12, and you can make it on a 1. You can even keep that as your dump stat (8), and chug a potions of Eagle's Splendor.

[Curmudgeon]

Custom magic item of +5 to UMD: 2,500
Masterwork tool (wand bracer?) +2
Skill Focus UMD (Later retrained): +3
Heroism +2
Inspire Competence via Bard that can be rented: +2
Circlet of Persuasion +3
Aid Another +2

That's a +19. Add in a Charisma of 12, and you can make it on a 1. You can even keep that as your dump stat (8), and chug a potions of Eagle's Splendor.

Have you calculated all these costs, multiplied by 224 for the inconstant items? Plus you still can't pull that off without actual ranks in Use Magic Device, as it's a trained-only skill.