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    Default Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6

    Quote Originally Posted by Gametime View Post
    The Monster Manual, even if it does apply here to player characters, only lets you use a bonus feat you already have even if you do not meet the prerequisites. It says nothing about gaining the feat - since the language implies that the monster bonus feats are racial, this is not surprising - and so a character cannot select the bonus feats for which they do not qualify.

    If this last interpretation is the only valid one, however, it would mean you could qualify for a bonus feat, select it, and then dump the prerequisites without losing access to the bonus feat.
    This. Saying some creatures have bonus feats that they don't meet the prereq's for and can use them anyway is not the same as saying you can 'choose' a bonus feat you don't meet the prereq's for.

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6

    Quote Originally Posted by idkwhatmynameis View Post
    I'm not sure if someone already mentioned this, so sorry if they did, but the bonus feat special ability should be marked as totally amazing. By RAW, you can take any feat, ignoring pre-requisites, which means if you start at say, level 10, you can directly take perfect two-weapon fighting skipping all the rest.
    That's definitely not RAI and isn't RAW except by an extremely tenuous and preferential reading. It does not fit the criteria for practical optimization at all.
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6

    Quote Originally Posted by idkwhatmynameis View Post
    Except it never states they are racial feats, but are Bonus feats, AKA exactly what the rogue gets, and if characters arent creatures this is what happens:

    *snip*
    I'm not saying player characters aren't creatures, I'm saying the way the term is used in this one specific section of the Monster Manual clearly uses "creature" and "monster" as synonyms distinct from "player characters." I agree that using the same word in multiple ways is extremely confusing and poorly written, but that's how they did it.


    Quote Originally Posted by idkwhatmynameis View Post
    Also, as defined(in the monster manual, the only place which does so), a bonus feat does 3 things:
    1. Allow you to ignore all pre-requisites for that feat unless stated otherwise(note it says creatures can not have the pre-requisites and still have the feat, meaning they ignore them) , in turn meaning you automatically qualify for it.
    2. Let you use the feat without qualifying for it.
    3. Let you have more feats than your HD would let you. (Duh)
    2 and 3 are correct. 1 is entirely false. Here is what the Monster Manual says about bonus feats (although it does not define them, as you so frequently claim, only mentions how they work - and, arguably, only how they work in the context of monster text blocks).

    Quote Originally Posted by Monster Manual
    Sometimes a creature has one or more bonus feats, marked with a superscript B (B). Creatures often do not have the prerequisites
    for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat.
    USE the feat. It specifically says that they do not have the prerequisites, and says nothing about qualifying for the feat regardless of lacking them. Nothing about ignoring prerequisites, except in the context of using the feat. Nothing about "automatically" qualifying for it. Your interpretation that the fact that creatures can use the feat without possessing the prerequisites means they also ignore the prerequisites in every other situation is completely unfounded and unsupported by the text.

    Thus, a character cannot take a bonus feat that he or she does not qualify for, unless the conditions of the bonus feat allow it. If the character has a bonus feat that they do not need to take - like, say, a racial feat - then they don't need to qualify for it and can use it despite lacking the prerequisites.

    Quote Originally Posted by idkwhatmynameis View Post
    And those rules don't just apply to how to read a monster entry, they also can apply to when you create a character. Last thing, note how in one of your quotes it says "this line gives the creatures feats." Yeah, that's every single player character. And guess what? A monster is a character since every single playable race is a monster. They're both creatures.
    So despite the fact that the section says this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Monster Manual
    This introduction explains how to read each creatureís write-up.
    ...you contend that the introduction ACTUALLY applies to creating characters.

    It's an interesting move to claim that the rules are lying to you about their areas of applicability. Regardless, even if these rules do apply to player characters, there is no provision allowing you to TAKE feats for which you do not qualify. See above.
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6

    Ok, first things first, I want to say I'm sorry since I didn't explain this well in my previous posts and wrote a lot of stuff without thinking. Now, I'm going to try to explain that as concretely as possible. Sorry especially for having to read through those.

    Now, bonus feats are never explained outside that page rihgt?(If someone finds it somewhere else please tell me, I'll be glad to look at it.) That's the only thing we have to go on when the rogue class says it gains a bonus feat. Now, those feats, like all other feats are at some point gained, (through birth, creation, training, whatever, it doesn't specify) and are gained even without the normal pre-requisites for them. Therefore, it can be concluded that they can be taken without meeting pre-requisites. And therefore, the rogue may take any feat regardless of pre-reqs because it is not stated otherwise.

    Again really, sorry, especially to gametime. (I wrote a lot without thinking much)

    *Goes to sleep so he may write more sanely tommorrow*
    Last edited by idkwhatmynameis; 2010-06-28 at 04:55 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6

    how many different ways can you interpret "bonus"?

    from thefreedictionary.com:
    bo∑nus (bns)
    n. pl. bo∑nus∑es
    1. Something given or paid in addition to what is usual or expected.
    2.
    a. A sum of money or an equivalent given to an employee in addition to the employee's usual compensation.
    b. A sum of money in addition to salary that is given to a professional athlete for signing up with a team.
    3. A subsidy from a government to an industry.
    4. A sum of money paid by a government to a war veteran.
    5. A premium, as of stock, that is given by a corporation to another party, such as a purchaser of its securities.
    6. A sum of money that is paid by a corporation in excess of interest or royalties charged for the granting of a privilege or a loan to that corporation.
    7. Basketball An additional free throw awarded to a player who has been fouled when the opposing team has committed more than a specified number of fouls during a period of play.
    2-7 are about money, and thus moot

    so: bonus = something givven in addition to what is expected
    bonus feats, well, feats you get in addition to what is normal or expected
    normally you get a feat /3 lvls, bonus means you get one extra



    also: fighter bonus feats
    from dungeons.wikia.com:
    Bonus Feats: At 1st level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter gains an additional bonus feat at 2nd level and every two fighter levels thereafter (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.

    These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A fighter is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feats.
    they explicitly state he has to meet the prerequisite

    why should a rogue be better than a fighter?

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6

    So all bonus feats must be picked from the fighter list? And that's Fighter Bonus Feats, not Bonus Feats.

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6

    Quote Originally Posted by rat-morningstar View Post
    why should a rogue be better than a fighter?
    Because fighters are a very poor class.
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6

    Quote Originally Posted by idkwhatmynameis View Post
    So all bonus feats must be picked from the fighter list? And that's Fighter Bonus Feats, not Bonus Feats.
    They're still considered bonus feats. Admittedly, that doesn't mean the restrictions on them apply to all bonus feats - that would be silly.
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6

    There are fighter bonus feats, wizard bonus feats, monk bonus feats, psychic warrior bonus feats, psion bonus feats, pious templar bonus feats, warblade bonus feats, and even HUMAN bonus feats. Some bonus feats may have restrictions (such as fighter's "combat oriented", wizard's "metamagic or item creation", psywar's "fighter or psionic", or even monk's "pick X or Y") or not (such as a human bonus feat, or rogue bonus feat). If what you say is true, then all 1 HD+ humans can take Epic Spellcasting, right?
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6

    Except all those state you must explicitly still meet pre-reqs. The rogue's doesn't, and therefore uses the only time bonus feats are explained.

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6

    Quote Originally Posted by idkwhatmynameis View Post
    Except all those state you must explicitly still meet pre-reqs. The rogue's doesn't, and therefore uses the only time bonus feats are explained.
    So what? The default is that you follow the general feat rules, which includes meeting prerequisites. It's only when the rules explicitly state otherwise that you can skip those prerequisites.

    This is a reminder:
    A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat.
    ... and this is an exception:
    A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6

    Quote Originally Posted by idkwhatmynameis View Post
    Except all those state you must explicitly still meet pre-reqs. The rogue's doesn't, and therefore uses the only time bonus feats are explained.
    You keep saying "bonus feats are explained" and "bonus feats are defined." They aren't. All that section of the Monster Manual says is that if the creature has bonus feats but does not meet the prerequisites, it can still use the feat. It says nothing about what bonus feats are - which isn't really an issue, since it should be pretty obvious that a "bonus feat" is just a feat that is acquired outside the 1/3 levels progression.

    It also, notably, says nothing about ignoring prerequisites for the purposes of acquiring feats, only for the purposes of using feats you already have (or, more accurately, creatures in the Monster Manual already have).
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6

    You should look into neraphs from the planar handbook, they have neraph throw as a bonus feat that makes a target flat footed against a throw attack, is only usable once a day against a single target though. But it's pretty decent especially if it's free.

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6

    Hm ... this is a rogue-ish thread, and I have a rogue-ish question. So possibly the two are a match made in heaven.

    Assasins get Death Attack. Which is kinda nice, though slightly underpowered (because I rarely invest heavily in int). And is a melee attack.

    So ... is there any way to make Death Attack ranged?

    Because my halfling ranger/assasin would so love to be able to gank unsuspecting enemies with his wee throwing daggers. Love it to death!

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6

    Quote Originally Posted by Acromos View Post
    So ... is there any way to make Death Attack ranged?
    The Sniperís Eye spell (Spell Compendium, pages 193-194) allows making a death attack within 60'; it's a 4th level Assassin spell.

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    The Sniperís Eye spell (Spell Compendium, pages 193-194) allows making a death attack within 60'; it's a 4th level Assassin spell.
    Sweet!

    Sadly, I'm unlikely to ever reach level 12. Our campaigns tend to end around level 9-10. But still - sweet.

    Maybe I could get a scroll. I do have UMD. Hmmmm =)

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6

    Was this dropped?

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6

    Here's a good trick: max out forgery and whenever you meet a noble get their autograph and then make some contract with their signature.

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    Was this dropped?
    I've been a bit busy. I'll update once I get some time.
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6

    Quote Originally Posted by PId6 View Post
    I've been a bit busy. I'll update once I get some time.
    Oh, I know the deal ^^
    Congrats, great job up until now.

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6

    To drastically reduce anyone's AC (especially for monsters), use the Acrobatic Backstab skill trick, the Deft Strike feat (from Draconomicon), and Travel Devotion. With Deft Strike, you make a spot check vs. the target's AC to bypass armor (natural or otherwise, including enhancement bonus), and Acrobatic Backstab denies the target their dexterity and dodge bonuses, plus it enables sneak attack. Mix this with Travel Devotion, and you can sneak attack on your own while still making full attacks.

    Remember to use Craven, Insightful Strike, Two Weapon Fighting, a haste effect of some kind, and maybe a Deadly Precision or Keen weapon.
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6

    Quote Originally Posted by Shoruke View Post
    use the Acrobatic Backstab skill trick, the Deft Strike feat (from Draconomicon), and Travel Devotion. With Deft Strike, you make a spot check vs. the target's AC to bypass armor (natural or otherwise, including enhancement bonus), and Acrobatic Backstab denies the target their dexterity and dodge bonuses, plus it enables sneak attack. Mix this with Travel Devotion, and you can sneak attack on your own while still making full attacks.
    Your combination doesn't really work with any full attacks.
    • Travel Devotion lets you move as a swift action.
    • Acrobatic Backstab lets you make 1 melee attack with the enemy flat-footed after a Tumble check. It's limited to 1 use per encounter.
    • Deft Strike requires a standard action to make a Spot check; if you succeed, your next attack is against a lowered AC.
    While you can use Travel Devotion and Acrobatic Backstab to enable 1 sneak attack after a swift action, the rest of your full attack gets no special benefit. Deft Strike, since it requires a standard action, precludes any regular attack in the round you use it, and still provides benefit only for a single attack.

    I don't see any way you're getting full sneak attacks in there.

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6

    Nice work!

    The Titan Fighting feat replaces your Dodge bonus with your racial AC bonus v. Giants. For Dwarves and Gnomes, the AC bonus v. Giants is 4 (so +1 Dodge becomes +4). The Feats, Both, section describes this feat as +5 to AC.

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    Your combination doesn't really work with any full attacks.
    He could be referecing the Deft Strik + Rapid Recon (hope I got the name right) combo; even though it is illegal, many people don't notice that.

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6

    How about multiclassing with sorcerer?
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    He could be referecing the Deft Strik + Rapid Recon (hope I got the name right) combo; even though it is illegal, many people don't notice that.
    That would be Quick Reconnoiter (from Complete Adventurer). As you noted, that combination doesn't work. Deft Strike explicitly requires a standard action and includes a Spot check. Quick Reconnoiter lets you make a retry Spot check as a free action instead of as a move action. The Spot check in Deft Strike and Quick Reconnoiter are of different types (look for a weak point in armor vs. look for something you failed to see on a previous Spot check) and actions (part of a standard action, vs. a move action changed to free action).

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain_Obvious View Post
    How about multiclassing with sorcerer?
    Use one of the Unseen Seer builds, but replace wizard with sorcerer. Sorcerer is not as good here (since Cha is much worse than Int for rogues) but it still works alright overall.
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6

    Quote Originally Posted by PId6 View Post
    Use one of the Unseen Seer builds, but replace wizard with sorcerer. Sorcerer is not as good here (since Cha is much worse than Int for rogues) but it still works alright overall.
    Multiclassing does have the added perk of opening Draconic Heritage. Draconic Claw is a not-so-bad feat and changing your Dragonfire Strike damage to sonic is pretty nice.

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6

    I prefer a combat rogue. 1 Level of Fighter to gain all armor, shield, and weapon prof as well as a feat. Max STR and let DEX slide a bit (12-16 is fine) wear a breastplate (or fullplate if my DEX is 12) and wield a greatsword. I then work with the fighter in the party to help me flank targets and smash them with my greatsword. At higher levels I invest in gloves of storing and a wand of divine power (which gives +6 enh to STR and gives me a Base Attack equal to my total character level) and I use the feat I didnt spend on Weapon Finesse for Skill Focus UMD to help ensure that wands works. (With a 16 INT its 100% at lvl 10 - which is about the level you should think of getting one.) Wand of Imp Invis is also a nice addition.

    A wand of grease is also essential (or a team playing wizard) for tightly packed groups of mobs inside of areas who refuse to allow for flanking.

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Rogue Handbook: A Fistful of d6

    Found an interesting item in the Pathfinder Advanced Players Guide on page 309 called Sniper Goggles. Takes up the eye slot. Sneak Attack at any range (basically continuous Snipers Shot) and +2 circumstance bonus per die of sneak attack damage on sneak attacks within 30ft. All this for 20,000gp.

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