Keychain of Creation IV: The Lore Thing

[Recaiden]

Yeah, that was my impression too. He didn't sacrifice his ignorance and become all-knowing, he sacrificed his ignorance and realized just how much suffering was in the world, at which point his Compassion acquired its self-destructive streak.

I think this puts it really well. I have to say, that sort of self-abandoning compassion is an idea that's really haunted me, and I love how Jukashi put it into words here.

[Weimann]

He wants it for the same reason I don't want Misho to have it: it's an anti-death-magic "I Win" item. If Misho gets his grubby mitts on it, and it still works like the legend claims, then Misho will be an immovable object against The First and Forsaken Lion's unstoppable force. As we all know, in Exalted, Defense Trumps Offense

"No Thing Born of Death Has Power Over Him". Scary, even for a god.

Oh. I kind of read it like he can't die from natural causes, such as old age, disease or the like. A sword to the gut would still take him out.

But I might have misinterpreted.

[The Bushranger]

The way I take it is, Beings of Death can't do anything to him while he wields the sword - e.g. beings of the Underworld/Abyss and whatnot. (Abyssals, Infernals, Deathlords, Neverborn, Yozis...hungry ghosts...pigeons...and such.)

[Coidzor]

The solution is simple: don't make it a Chekov's gun that makes the final fight too easy for the protagonists. Make it a Chekov's gun that makes the final fight possible for the protagonists, instead of a insta-hosed, no saving throw affair.

Something tells me it would appear in an antagonist's position, just from the demands of the narrative.

I think this puts it really well. I have to say, that sort of self-abandoning compassion is an idea that's really haunted me, and I love how Jukashi put it into words here.

It's ok except for his word choice and failure to fully expound upon his intent and meaning there.

Because it doesn't really sound like he gave up his ignorance, it sounds closer to him giving up his ability to forget things over time except that doesn't even fully encapsulate what vague-ness we did run into.

The story part is good, but the treatment of his sacrifice and implications just bug the **** out of me.

[Green Bean]

The way I take it is, Beings of Death can't do anything to him while he wields the sword - e.g. beings of the Underworld/Abyss and whatnot. (Abyssals, Infernals, Deathlords, Neverborn, Yozis...hungry ghosts...pigeons...and such.)

Well, the Yozis and Infernals don't really count as Being of Death, since they're powered with Primordial Essence rather than Necrotic. If anything, the Primordials' role in building Creation makes them the exact opposite.

[Lix Lorn]

It's ok except for his word choice and failure to fully expound upon his intent and meaning there.

Because it doesn't really sound like he gave up his ignorance, it sounds closer to him giving up his ability to forget things over time except that doesn't even fully encapsulate what vague-ness we did run into.

The story part is good, but the treatment of his sacrifice and implications just bug the **** out of me.

Well, one of his radiances was said to be memory, so if he gave up ignorance, he'd know everything-know all the suffering of all people, and never be able to forget it.

How I see it, anyway.

[Aquillion]

He wants it for the same reason I don't want Misho to have it: it's an anti-death-magic "I Win" item. If Misho gets his grubby mitts on it, and it still works like the legend claims, then Misho will be an immovable object against The First and Forsaken Lion's unstoppable force. As we all know, in Exalted, Defense Trumps Offense

"No Thing Born of Death Has Power Over Him". Scary, even for a god.

There's lots of other reasons.

The Deathlords fight each other all the time, and a powerful anti-deathlord weapon would therefore be very valuable to them.

More than that, if it has power over the Neverborn, the FaFL might be able to get free using it. Using the keys, he could open his armor; using the Sword of Vitality, he could prevent the Neverborn from having any sway over him, so they can't re-imprison him. At that point he'd be free to take over the world -- it's pretty much just the Neverborn holding him back out of spite for his past failures.

Remember, the FaFL doesn't actually want to destroy the world ("Egad, I hope not! That's where I keep all my stuff!") He agreed to do it because that was the only way for him to get power again, but what he really wants is to rule the world, not to kill it. He would definitely be interested in anything that would let him stab the Neverborn in the back -- he's not really on the Neverborn's side. He's on his own side; the Neverborn just happened to be a stepping-stone to power along the way.

The FaFL may even be the ghost of someone Misho knew in life (technically, the only reason we know he's not Misho's ghost is because the FaFL wasn't a Primordial War survivor, and Misho was. But even that could be tweaked if Keychain's canon is different.)

[Ignition]

There's lots of other reasons.

Interesting analysis! I guess I wrote off FaFL as Skeletor Variant Eighty Five too quickly

[Yuki Akuma]

The way I take it is, Beings of Death can't do anything to him while he wields the sword - e.g. beings of the Underworld/Abyss and whatnot. (Abyssals, Infernals, Deathlords, Neverborn, Yozis...hungry ghosts...pigeons...and such.)

Yozis and Infernals are not beings of Death. At all. They respire living Essence just like mortals and Celestial Exalts and so on do.

[The Rose Dragon]

The FaFL may even be the ghost of someone Misho knew in life (technically, the only reason we know he's not Misho's ghost is because the FaFL wasn't a Primordial War survivor, and Misho was. But even that could be tweaked if Keychain's canon is different.)

Also, the Lion was likely a Dawn Caste in life, rather than Twilight.

Are there any Deathlords that were Golden Hero Vassals?

[Yuki Akuma]

Also, the Lion was likely a Dawn Caste in life, rather than Twilight.

Are there any Deathlords that were Golden Hero Vassals?

Probably! After all, they'd be the craziest ones by the time of the Usurpation, right?

On average, I mean.

[The Bushranger]

Yozis and Infernals are not beings of Death. At all. They respire living Essence just like mortals and Celestial Exalts and so on do.

Bah, silly technicalities. (But thanks for the correction.)

[The Rose Dragon]

Probably! After all, they'd be the craziest ones by the time of the Usurpation, right?

On average, I mean.

According to popular theory, the Silver Prince was a rather famous Golden Hero Vassal in life who had an exemplary relationship with his wife.

[Jukashi]

Ok, here is where I go and own up to something; the story of the Blade of Vitality actually pre-dates Keychain of Creation, in the form of a custom artifact that I made way back in the days of First Edition. Although I rewrote the story, not much of it has been changed in essence.

So, you see, there are actually definted traits and powers for the Blade. One, that it's utterly indestructible, two that whoever owns it doesn't age and is much healthier than a normal human, three that it makes you immune to the powers of deathly beings (ghosts, abyssals, deathlords and the neverborn) and four that it itself deals aggravated damage to those beings.

[Doran]

One, that it's utterly indestructible.

Given that the only other utterly indestructable things in the settings are the exaltations, it seems I wasn't far off the mark when speculating about merging an exaltation with a weapon.

[Rockphed]

So, you see, there are actually definted traits and powers for the Blade. One, that it's utterly indestructible, two that whoever owns it doesn't age and is much healthier than a normal human, three that it makes you immune to the powers of deathly beings (ghosts, abyssals, deathlords and the neverborn) and four that it itself deals aggravated damage to those beings.

There's lots of other reasons.

The Deathlords fight each other all the time, and a powerful anti-deathlord weapon would therefore be very valuable to them.

More than that, if it has power over the Neverborn, the FaFL might be able to get free using it. Using the keys, he could open his armor; using the Sword of Vitality, he could prevent the Neverborn from having any sway over him, so they can't re-imprison him. At that point he'd be free to take over the world -- it's pretty much just the Neverborn holding him back out of spite for his past failures.

Remember, the FaFL doesn't actually want to destroy the world ("Egad, I hope not! That's where I keep all my stuff!") He agreed to do it because that was the only way for him to get power again, but what he really wants is to rule the world, not to kill it. He would definitely be interested in anything that would let him stab the Neverborn in the back -- he's not really on the Neverborn's side. He's on his own side; the Neverborn just happened to be a stepping-stone to power along the way.

The FaFL may even be the ghost of someone Misho knew in life (technically, the only reason we know he's not Misho's ghost is because the FaFL wasn't a Primordial War survivor, and Misho was. But even that could be tweaked if Keychain's canon is different.)

Yeah, the blade of vitality sounds like the sort of thing a deathlord would want if they were planning on going rogue. Well, differently rogue, seeing as they are already the rogue ghosts of solars.

[lord_khaine]

Given that the only other utterly indestructable things in the settings are the exaltations, it seems I wasn't far off the mark when speculating about merging an exaltation with a weapon.

But this doesnt quite make sense, since we know Misho has his Exaltation himself, it cant be stuck in a sword then?

[Coidzor]

But this doesnt quite make sense, since we know Misho has his Exaltation himself, it cant be stuck in a sword then?

It's made of dragon.

[Doran]

Well there is a parallel in the Abyssals and their monstrances - the exaltation isn't kept within the monstrance but is linked to it, so maybe there is a similar situation there?

[Yuki Akuma]

Well there is a parallel in the Abyssals and their monstrances - the exaltation isn't kept within the monstrance but is linked to it, so maybe there is a similar situation there?

Monstrances aren't even close to indestructible. They're just very hardy.

[Weimann]

Due to my hax Google skillz, here's the entry on Mim, the Sword of Vitality.

Note that Jukashi stated that the origin story was changed.

[Doran]

Due to my hax Google skillz, here's the entry on Mim, the Sword of Vitality.

Note that Jukashi stated that the origin story was changed.

Oh it so it was Misho's lower soul rather than his exaltation. I wonder how it gained indestructibility?

[The Rose Dragon]

Oh it so it was Misho's lower soul rather than his exaltation. I wonder how it gained indestructibility?

Strangely, it is the lower soul that the Exaltation attaches itself to in humans. I wonder what happened to Misho's Exaltation without his animating force.

[Lix Lorn]

It lost it's memories, cause they were attached to the sword?
Maybe?

[Coidzor]

According to popular theory, the Silver Prince was a rather famous Golden Hero Vassal in life who had an exemplary relationship with his wife.

Were... the first solars known not to treat their wives well or something?

[horngeek]

Were... the first solars known not to treat their wives well or something?

*cough*Desus*cough*

[kamikasei]

Were... the first solars known not to treat their wives well or something?

The particular Solar speculated to have become the Silver Prince was an upstanding fellow against whom not a word should be said! Nor am I wearing a white veil. I don't know why you never asked that, as we are not even having this conversation.

[horngeek]

If you're confused, check the Tvtropes Complete Monster page, under Tabletop Games. It should become clear.

[Gaius]

Nonsense, horngeek. As kamikasei said, Desus is a hallmark of kindness and heroics! That the page you suggest spends more time speaking of his atrocities than those of the Neverborn and Ebon Dragon combined -- the latter of whom likely created and embodies the concept of Complete Monstrosity, mind you... Well, it's clearly all slander and lies.

[Coidzor]

So this is after they all start going crazy or before?

Because I think I have a new favorite person if he started doing that even before they were all frothing at the mouth like CE-incarnate....