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2010-06-30, 09:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
That's... wow. I support removing some of that stuff, but other things... They sound awesome.
To anyone considering getting into Orks, this is a very good idea right here.
Very nice list, Cheesegear. You gonna add that to the OP to help out the newbies?Anemoia: Nostalgia for a time you've never known.
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2010-06-30, 09:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
Bolt Pistols for the Death Company, Snipers for the scouts. I know there are lots of ways to spend 20 points- I was asking for advice on *which* way I should spend them. I'll probably go for the Meltaguns.
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2010-06-30, 09:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
Sure am. I also forgot the Ravenwing squad, but that's there now too.
Originally posted by Gauntlet
I know there are lots of ways to spend 20 points- I was asking for advice on *which* way I should spend them. I'll probably go for the Meltaguns.
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2010-06-30, 09:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
Damn, I was hoping for some incredible combination which blew all the others out of the water but I'll live. Anyway, picked up a Death Company box today, which gives me enough Blood Angels bitz to last me through an army or five.
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2010-06-30, 10:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
I forgot to factor in a few things in my preview "Work in Progress" Ork list. I've gotten down to my last 10 Boyz, and I can't decide on adding them to the Shootas, Sluggas, or just converting some or all of them into Lootas. Anybody care to look over the list and offer advice on what to do with the last of 'em?
Not sure the full points values, but here's the general gist of the force I'm going for...
-Warboss with 5 Nobs (Eavy Armor, Power Klaws, Kombi-Shootas, Painboy, the usual... )
-21 Slugga Boyz (Eavy Armor, Nob with Bosspole & PK, 2x Big Shootas)
-21 Shoota Boyz (Nob with Bosspole (PK or Big Choppa?), 2 x Big Shootas)
-Trukk (Undecided, will probably convert to Battlewagon)
-3 Killa Kans (1 Big Shoota, 2 x Grotzookas)
-3 Deffkoptas (TL Rokkit Launchas)
-3 Biker Nobs (Power Klaws, Painboy, Da Works. )
-"Shooty Tank" Looted Wagon (Boomgun, Hard Case, Armor Plates, Rokkit Launcha)
-"AOK* Transport" Looted Wagon (Red Paint Job, Hard Case, ???)
Boss, Nobs, and Ard Boys handle infantry, Kans, Koptas, and Bikers handle vehicles, and Boyz cap and hold objectives. Tank Looted Wagon will blast whatever the Zogg it wants, while the Transport Looted Wagon will ferry various units around as fast as its tracks can go and/or getting itself killed in front of objectives to provide cover saves...
My concerns are...
-Last 10 Boyz:
I have 10 Boyz left to assemble, and plenty of bitz and gear left to fully deck them out as whatever I want. Should I add them to my Slugga Boyz, my Shoota Boyz, or make a 3rd Squad of Shootas, taking the Heavy Armor from the Sluggas and giving it to them so they can focus on cap-n-holding objectives? Or, should I bust out the plasticard, greenstuff, and bitz to make a squad of Shootas? Kommandos don't seem like they're worth the effort, even if I have some cool model ideas...
-Looted Wagons:
I want to turn the Tank into... well... a Tank. Not sure what the best gear for that is, so feel free to correct me on it. The Halftrack model, I'm not sure about. An AOK Transport would be handy for ferrying around various units if/when needed + expendable cover, but it would also make for an awesome Wartrakk model since its... y'know... a Halftrack. Advice?
-Trukk or Battlewagon:
As we all know, just 1 Trukk is not enough to get anything done properly. As it is, I figure a Trukk + AOK Transport combo could help with that problem, but I still dunno if that's a good idea. But then I realized something - the power of the WAAAAAAAGGGH!! allows for infinite possiblities. So, why not make the Trukk into a Battlewagon? Running Boards and Handolds, extra armor plating, a kustom-built Deff Rolla, Moar Dakka, et cetera... Seems like a Rip Roarin' way to get my 'Ard Boyz to the thick of things fastest, eh?
*Armored Ork'n'el KarrierAnemoia: Nostalgia for a time you've never known.
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2010-07-01, 06:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
Personally I'd probably shove an extra 5 Boyz in each unit, as with Orks it seems that bigger is always better! They'll be Fearless for longer and if they're holding objectives they'll probably need some extra bodies for more staying power. I'm not sure of Ork vehicles maximum transport capacity though, so take the advice with a pinch of salt. Two troop choices might be a bit light though.
I've bitten the bullet and started a small Chaos Daemon army, if only because I have CSMs already and I can multi-use the figures in two forces. I think I'll wait to see what new stuff comes out towards the end of the year, as I've heard Chaos Daemons are getting a bit of an overhaul come September, but that gives me some time to plan out a force properly before I start buying for once.
I already know about their problems (expensive Troops choices, expensive HQs, trickling in as reserves during the game, and 33% chance that the wrong half of my army will turn up on Turn 1), but I really think they could be a fun force to play outside of tournaments. I have a few ideas of how to cut-down their weaknesses, but I'm not sure how well they'll work:
- Have either Plaguebearers or Flamers in each half of my force, to ensure I have a unti with good staying power to act as a fire sink in Turn 1.
- Skulltaker or Masque as a cheapish HQ to allow more points for Troops.
- Take large(ish) units of Troops so they can stand more withiering fire before getting to charge in.
- Icons in every Troop choice, so my later reserves at least drop where I want, if not when I want them to.
I already have a few things painted up from my CSMs, which cover my Troops choices for now:
-15 Daemonettes (trading individual stamina for numbers)
- 8 Bloodletters (Troops with PWs!)
-10 Plaguebearers
Works out at around the 500 point mark depending on options. I'm going for a 1000 point Chaos Undivided force to begin with, leaving me 500ish point for my HQ and more units. I'm considering:
- Masque with the Daemonettes for unit movement abilities, or Skulltaker with the Bloodletters for a nasty Melee unit. 100-150 points.
- 5-8 Flamers with Warpfire, for much needed firepower and anti-tank capabilities. Not really sure how big the unit needed to be to be useful though. 180 - 320 depending on numbers.
- As many Bloodcrushers or Flesh Hounds as leftover points will allow.
My plan would be to put the Bloodletters, Flamers and HQ in the first half of the force, drop the unit close together on one flank, and use the Flamers to mess up any units close enough to fire on the Bloodletters Turn 1. The Plaguebearers, Daemonettes and Bloodcrushers/Hounds would be the other half of the force, sub-optimal, but at least it has a tough unit and lots of bodies should they end up appearing Turn 1 instead. If they do appear as reserves then they're fast moving and will add bite to assaults where things are going badly.
Any opinions on how this would work, or suggestions for force changes? I'm a complete newb when it comes to Chaos Daemons I'm afraid. Nobody I know plays them and they're barely ever used in the local store, so all I've got to go on is the Codex and Cheesegears newbie guide. They're both useful, but a competitive list is quite hard to glean from them.
Also, anyone know whether a new CD codex will come out when they update some of the models in a few months time?
Excellent Elan & Yoshi avatar by Mr Saturn
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2010-07-01, 07:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
Shas'aia Toiira, this dreamkill is for you...
Chaos Daemons is not getting an overhaul. They've got the same Codex that they've always had. The only thing different is new models.
I'm sure Erloas would have said something, or Zorg would have linked to Warseer or something if there were a new Codex coming out sometime soon. I don't know anything - at all - about a new Codex. Not even a rumour.
EDIT; No new Codex.
But I really think they could be a fun force to play outside of tournaments.
The other thing that you perhaps might not know is that there are a few certain armies that are fun to play in a tournament.
Have either Plaguebearers or Flamers in each half of my force, to ensure I have a unti with good staying power to act as a fire sink in Turn 1.
Flamers are sadly a one-shot unit. I've never had more than one round of shooting (at only one unit, of course) with them. My opponents just wont allow them to be on the board for a second turn. Given the fact that Flamers are 35 points each, and don't have the survivability of Terminators or any such like...
Skulltaker or Masque as a cheapish HQ to allow more points for Troops.
Take large(ish) units of Troops so they can stand more withiering fire before getting to charge in.
Icons in every Troop choice, so my later reserves at least drop where I want, if not when I want them to.
15 Daemonettes (trading individual stamina for numbers)
8 Bloodletters (Troops with PWs!)
10 Plaguebearers
Masque with the Daemonettes for unit movement abilities, or Skulltaker with the Bloodletters for a nasty Melee unit. 100-150 points.
Skulltaker needs to be on a Juggernaut or Chariot. He's just not that amazing on foot.
5-8 Flamers with Warpfire, for much needed firepower and anti-tank capabilities. Not really sure how big the unit needed to be to be useful though. 180 - 320 depending on numbers.
As many Bloodcrushers or Flesh Hounds as leftover points will allow.
My plan...
Nobody I know plays them and they're barely ever used in the local store
but a competitive list is quite hard to glean from them.
Ku'Gath
Epidemius
Skulltaker on Juggernaut
3-5 Bloodcrushers (to soak Shooting wounds off of Skulltaker)
...As many Plaguebearers as you have points to spare
Optional; 3 Soul Grinders, or Daemon Princes of Nurgle
...This list wont win games normally. It's goal is force a Tabling. Every game. The fact that it needs 3 Uniques. Or two, Skulltaker and the Bloodcrushers aren't essential. Which should give you more points for MOAR! Plaguebearers.
This should tip you off on just how sub-optimal any other choice is.
Play 2v2. Have your partner play Nurgle Chaos Marines.
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2010-07-01, 08:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
I can't find my rulebook right now.
Silly rules question: Does a unit that rallies count as moving, stopping it from firing heavy weapons/halving the range of rapid firing weapons and can it assault (or shoot at all) on the turn it rallies?"that nighted, penguin-fringed abyss" - At The Mountains of Madness, H.P. Lovecraft
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2010-07-01, 08:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
Yes, when you rally, you make a 3" move in any direction that counts as your movement for the turn, and all the other limitations of having moved that turn. Unless you're marines, I think.
Edit: just checked, yup Marines are super special awesome, ATSKNF means that they auto-regroup and act completely normally. Fearless+ indeed.Last edited by One Step Two; 2010-07-01 at 08:24 AM.
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2010-07-01, 08:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
Thanks for the advice, and for the images of some of the new releases, I didn't get to see the new stuff before they took them down again. The Daemonette cavalry look very nice in particular, and it's good to know more of the standard models are going to be plastic. No new codex...glad I haven't wasted money on the one I bought last week.
I'll cut down my icon plans, keep my units large, and take a very close look at Epidemius before I decide on a HQ. I'll probably end up taking Flamers anyway for a one turn shock and awe type thing. I have a Nurgle CSM force too, so a 2v2 with an decent allied army is definitely a possibility...maybe I'll even win a game.
Excellent Elan & Yoshi avatar by Mr Saturn
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2010-07-01, 09:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
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2010-07-01, 09:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-07-01, 09:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
LGBTitP Supporter
In a Wonderland they lie, Dreaming as the days go by, Dreaming as the summers die - Ever drifting down the stream - Lingering in the golden gleam - Life, what is it, but a dream?
- Lewis Carroll
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2010-07-01, 09:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
Why do Tzeentch Termies get no special mention? Their durability is legendary for their point cost.
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2010-07-01, 10:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
Okay. Don't use Looted Wagons just for transport. You're paying extra for a slower and only slightly more survivable Trukk.
Take some Lootas. Fifteen is a good number, or two squads of 10.
Grotzookas x2 should be Grotzookas x3. I think I've mentioned that before.
Shoota Boys are better than Slugga Boys if they're not in transports.
'Ard Boys are probably not worth it unless they're a bodyguard for a Weirdboy or something.
You. Need. More. Lootas. I take fifteen and I'm seriously considering taking thirty instead.
Clarify what "Da Works " means on your Nob Bikers.
Dropping the Deffkoptas gives you the points for nine Lootas. Take them.I am the golden shadow. I am the Ninja Chocobo
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2010-07-01, 11:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-07-01, 02:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
So should I rig the halftrack Looted Wagon up as just a mobile firebase, or make it into a Wartrakk?
While 15 would be a lovely number, I only have 10 models to spare. I'll keep that in mind, though.
In my experience, my Ard Boyz have fared fairly well. They still get an armor save vs. bolters, can survive the slog across the battlefield, and don't die as easily during assaults. My Shoota Boyz got slaughtered last assault they got into.
Apparently, I need more Lootas...
Y'know, the typical Biker Nob mix. Bikes, Painboy, Cyborks, Power Klaws, Grot Orderly, Bosspole, all those awesome saves...
I'm not dropping the Deffkoptas if I can help it. They've been one of my most valuable units every game I played them in, and I've got the points to spare, anyway.
Sooo... Anybody else want to weigh in on my concerns? Right now, Lootas seem to be the favorable option, and I'm thinking the halftrakk should be a Wartrakk, though I'm not sure what weapons to give it.Anemoia: Nostalgia for a time you've never known.
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2010-07-01, 07:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
Right Lycan my flatmate playes orks almost exclusively now so I should be able to help you somewhat on what to take ext.
So from my experence Battlewagons are worth the points always. Deffrolla on them and have them tank shock everything (and I mean everything). Sure your opponant gets a save but seriosly they are awesome, on top of this they can carry 20 boys around and basicaly become a moble firebase of epicness. Being opened toped everyone in the battle wagon can fire. Now picture this a gattle wagon rolling up to a squad of assault marines and unloading 10 flamer templates because its filled with burnerboyz. Taking that many hits let alone wounds means anything is fuged. Forget anything else for transports.
Ard armor isnt worth it imo unless they have a painboy with them. As FnP only works if you can still get a armor save having that 4+ armor save is gold. A painboy is wasted on normal boyz as most armys have something in large quantitys that gets rid of boyz save.
Lootas. Wow just wow. My flatmate has started to get some decent rolls at the right time with these guys and ZOMG! having 2 squads of 15 fireing 3 times each is crazy. Sure BS2 sucks and you need 5's+ but really with 45 shots you get quite a few 5's+. Added to the fact that their str7 they are great for light/med vehical popping or for cutting down MEQ's
A unit hes been using is Kommandos with 2 burner boys and Snikrot. Ambush rule is great and havign 2 burner boys means that your going to get 2 lots of power weapon attacks.
Oh and a squad of 30 boys with cybork bodies and ard armor is one of the funniest units to use in a 1000 point game
Theres a bunch of other stuff that ive learnt about orks but its early and im only half way through a coffee.
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2010-07-01, 07:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
You have your FNP rules a bit off. Weapons that ignore YOUR save don't matter, it has to be weapons that ignore ANY save.
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2010-07-01, 08:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
wait what? So I get a save from a meltagun then? or a plasmagun/cannon? From a demolisher cannon as well. Infact the only thing I dont get saves from is close combat attacks. That really doesnt make sence and I dont have my rule book around to make sure of that either..
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2010-07-01, 08:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
What are his HQ units? Because unless he's using the Mad Doc Grotsnik, you're being taken for a ride. Boyz can't have Painboys or Cybork upgrades unless Grotsnik is in the army, and even then the price for 30 Boyz have Cybork would be 150 points for 5+ saves. Compared to 120 points for 4+ saves from Eavy Armor, he'd be an idiot to take that option. So either you're exaggerating about the 30 Boyz with Cybork and Eavy Armor upgrades, or your flatmate is a cheater and an idiot.
Anybody know what the rules on a converted Loota would be, WYSIWYG wise? I mean, their guns are just supposed to be big masses of dakka, so it seems that models with 3-4 Shootas welded together or a Big Shoota, Imperial Lascannon, and several grenades strapped to each each other would make suitable Deffguns. I mean, I'm sure my friends wouldn't mind or question it, but I'd rather not swing by a local tourney and be told my list is illegal because my Lootas literally don't have enough dakka...
Edit: I'm lacking my rulebook too, but I'm fairly certain that you roll FNP for any wounds you failed your saves against, and if you pass you simply just don't take the wound. No rerolls, it just doesn't affect the unit.Last edited by Lycan 01; 2010-07-01 at 08:14 PM.
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2010-07-01, 08:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
You don't get saves from things which are AP1 or AP2.... It just doesn't happen.
To quote the rule book:
Neither can it be used against wounds from ap1 and ap2 weapons, power weapons, and any other wound against which no armor save can ever be taken (powerfists, DCCW, rending....)Last edited by Myatar_Panwar; 2010-07-01 at 08:21 PM.
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2010-07-01, 08:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
Yeah he was using Groznik, that crazy old doctor dude.
A chaos demolisher cannon (imp guard as well for that matter) is ap3 which means it negates marine saves, but by this ruleing I would get a 4+ fnp save because it only negates MY save not every save, as arty armor or termi armor still get saves.
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2010-07-01, 08:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
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2010-07-01, 08:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
Hai guise. I know I just posted a 1.5k list, but as it turns out, the actual fight is going to be 1k, so I'm having to retool.
My opponent is a Tau player. However, his playstyle seems to differ from many other players: He's only got two squads of Fire Warriors, only runs two Suits (not sure which), and has very few tanks, though several drones with Markerlights.
So, basically, I need to play a counter list. Also, we're not playing objectives, because he's just trying to get the basics down, and I need to reteach myself how this bloody game works. Now, some of you might think "Wow, you're tooling your list specifically to beat a noob? Harsh." Well, he's not a noob. He's a very competent wargamer, who's just happened to stay clear of 40k til now. So.
My plan for the 1k list is (since I'm not sure I have it firm yet):
-Slaaneshi Sorc with Lash, and possibly Wings/Jump Pack to move as Jump Infantry, which may or may not mean he'll be with...
-Raptors. Six of em. Leader with Dual LCs (since that's how he's modeled), plus two Meltas in the squad. Their purpose is to mop up the Fire Warrior Squads, and/or go for some kills on one of his transports. Also, they can go shoot/assault anything the Sorc moves their way.
-Two ten-man squads of doods. Each squad will have a Rhino with Extra Armor, and each will have an Aspiring Champ. One Champ has a power weapon.
-Three Oblits.
That right there is 1k. Is it sound enough to take on a Tau list? Or should I tweak it?
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2010-07-01, 08:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
Hrm interesting... think ill be having words to one of my mates about that.
-edit-
huh.. your taking lash oblits against a noob? really? Why not make the sorc a demon prince and call it a day.
I have mad props for any chaos opponant that doesnt take a Lash sorc/prince, since every chaos player ive played bar 1 (in a torni no less!) has taken a lash prince or lash sorc, quickly becomes the most uninteresting thing to play against.
An hes playing Tau dude... you dont need the lash take something else instead, close combat related and munch him the old fashion way.
-note- I dont blame you for taking it, as its one of the few viable lists that that codex has sadly, just more of a personal gripe.Last edited by DranWork; 2010-07-01 at 08:52 PM.
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2010-07-01, 08:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
If he hadn't won every game he played in the last tournament, I'd have thought against it. Also, I lack a DP model, having played Iron Warriors and not having all that much conversion-fu. And I hadn't actually though about using the Oblits to kill stuff, just more to have them be a fire magnet. Well, I mean, hadn't thought of using them in combination with Lash.
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2010-07-01, 08:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
You... do? I mean, if your objective is to be a prick, I suppose.
That... doesn't justify tailoring your list. At all.
Please format this correctly. However, as immediately comes to mind, a Wings Prince is better than the other Chaos HQs in basically every way.
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2010-07-01, 09:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
Formatted for responding.
1. The sad thing is that I know I'm still going to lose, prickish counterlisting or not.
2. The fact that any other wargame I've played against this guy (namely Warmachine/Hordes) I've been trounced royally has made me slightly bitter This guy is, however, a good friend of mine, and as I said before, even with tailoring, I'm still likely to lose.
3. I hadn't actually realized there was a proper formatting technique. It's only been recently that I've posted in here. Also, I lack a Prince model.
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2010-07-01, 09:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
Guess basicaly what it boils down to is the fact that your taking a torni fav list vs an army that doesnt often appear in torni's for a reasion. Simple fact is it doesnt matter if he's kicked your arse repeatedly in every game youve ever played, this is 40k nothing really ever goes to plan.
An also if hes that good perhaps its something your doing thats wrong? Bad movement, bad deployment, bad unit choice comes to mind.