Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.

[Deth Muncher]

Guess basicaly what it boils down to is the fact that your taking a torni fav list vs an army that doesnt often appear in torni's for a reasion. Simple fact is it doesnt matter if he's kicked your arse repeatedly in every game youve ever played, this is 40k nothing really ever goes to plan.

An also if hes that good perhaps its something your doing thats wrong? Bad movement, bad deployment, bad unit choice comes to mind.

I didn't actually know this was a tourney favorite list, though I guess I'm not surprised.

And anyhoo, you're probably right about it being me that causes the losing. My friend, whom we call Wookie, is just one of those guys that understands the flow of the game and how things work very easily, so he can apply that to any wargame he plays. I am not. :/

[DranWork]

Eh I dont think it would be the fact that he can easily adapt to different rules sets thats doing you in (but that said it would be an advantage) but more the fact that perhaps he takes a "better" army then you do and has clear and defined goals for each unit an a better understanding of its capabilitys. Luck will usualy not have anything to do with it as luck "runs out" or "turns bad"

[Deth Muncher]

Eh I dont think it would be the fact that he can easily adapt to different rules sets thats doing you in (but that said it would be an advantage) but more the fact that perhaps he takes a "better" army then you do and has clear and defined goals for each unit an a better understanding of its capabilitys. Luck will usualy not have anything to do with it as luck "runs out" or "turns bad"

You know, this actually makes a lot of sense. I remember when I used to actually play wargames a lot, I would just sort of slap together a list with whatever I thought was good at the time without really looking at how it synergized, or how it would fare against people - I just went with an idea. Nowadays (this having been probably two years since I've even played a tabletop wargame), I've often put more thought into something I'm creating - be it a D&D character or what have you. So maybe that's the difference.

[Trixie]

My opponent is a Tau player. However, his playstyle seems to differ from many other players: He's only got two squads of Fire Warriors, only runs two Suits (not sure which), and has very few tanks, though several drones with Markerlights.

You say he has nothing, then what he actually has?

That being said, you need 2x Land Raider, 2x Daemon Prince, 2x 5 guys cheapest squads, and as many Obliterators you can fit if you're going that way

[Klose_the_Sith]

2. The fact that any other wargame I've played against this guy (namely Warmachine/Hordes) I've been trounced royally has made me slightly bitter This guy is, however, a good friend of mine, and as I said before, even with tailoring, I'm still likely to lose.

That's probably because you can't win Warmachine in squad selection

Seriously though, I wouldn't take those games as a base for 40k. I can hold my own with ease in WM, but I'm yet to actually win a game of 40k. They are in fact quite different games, shockingly enough.

[Cheesegear]

My opponent is a Tau player. However, his playstyle seems to differ from many other players: He's only got two squads of Fire Warriors, only runs two Suits (not sure which), and has very few tanks, though several drones with Markerlights.

I'm with Trixie, you're only telling us what he doesn't have. Not what he does have.

So, basically, I need to play a counter list.

...Aaand that's where I stop paying attention. Even if you were to tell me exactly what he did have (above), I would still tell you not to tailor your list because that's just not cool.
I could tell you what to take against Tau in general (any S8 and/or AP4 {or better} weapons), but I'm not going to help you tailor your list.

Also, we're not playing objectives, because he's just trying to get the basics down

Objectives are part of the basic game. Two thirds of all games you will ever play involve objectives. By not focusing on objectives, presumably you're not focusing on your Troops selections. So, what's the point? Take 3 squads of Terminators or Chosen, the cheapest Troops units you can find, 2 Daemon Princes and as many Defilers or Vindicators as you can handle.

Who cares, right? If your goal is to stomp him, and you're not playing objectives, why screw around with sub-optimal units like Raptors?

...Yes. The 'I am disappoint' face. Because this is a terrible way to play. I know I've played a few games doing this. I even wrote a battle report doing it not too long ago. But, even that list was still an 'all-comers' list and had 3 full size Troop units. And you could also say that I was forced into doing it and I didn't exactly enjoy it.

Now, some of you might think "Wow, you're tooling your list specifically to beat a noob? Harsh." Well, he's not a noob. He's a very competent wargamer, who's just happened to stay clear of 40k til now. So.

If he doesn't know the basics of the game, and you do, he's still a newb. This justification fails. It doesn't matter how competent at other wargames he might be, if he's not competent at the game you're currently playing then your argument is null.

"Dude, I'm awesome at playing Rugby Union!"
"...Well, this is soccer football, and you suck at it."

I hadn't actually realized there was a proper formatting technique.

THERE'S A LINK TO IT IN THE FIRST POST OF THE THREAD. Hell, it's even a recent link.

...Next time somebody asks a question when the answer is clearly in the Guide, or linked to by the Guide...Is it too harsh if I just ignore the question?

*Ahem*...There certainly is a proper technique in making your list easy to read and how to get people to read it, or at least want to read it. I think I saw 'doods' a few times in your list and so I completely ignored it.

[Zorg]

THERE'S A LINK TO IT IN THE FIRST POST OF THE THREAD. Hell, it's even a recent link.

Dude, I looked at the first post and couldn't see it easily in five seconds - if he formats it from your preferred method is it really a 'sin' worthy of making him feel like an idiot?

Would any who had a go to someone in store 'hrm, this isn't in black ballpoint using block capitals - I'm not playing you until you re-write it. There's a correct method to write these out you know.'
Or would you say 'hrm, next time could you try to write a bit neater, it's kinda hard to read your list - here's a helpful guide.'

Ok, found it under two spoiler tags - hardly something someone who hasn't read the entire thread would find easily, and hardly anything 'official'.

...Next time somebody asks a question when the answer is clearly in the Guide, or linked to by the Guide...Is it too harsh if I just ignore the question?

You are not the only one here capable of giving advice you know, and not all of us here agree with everything in your guide. So unless you're saying nobody's opinion but yours counts, people shouldn't be made to feel bad about asking something just because you chose to write about it already.

If you want to ignore it that's your choice, but a more productive approach would be to link to your earlier thoughts and to expand upon them to the questioner's specific situation - having a go at them for not bowing before the altar of 'the guide' if just plain rude.

[Deth Muncher]

Ow ow ow, the hate. If it makes you all feel better, we ended up not playing, since we were both running late and it would have taken me at least two hours to get to the gaming store (as I live an hour away now, and I still had to shower etc).

Secondly, my bad for not realizing there was a posting format. I guess that's probably something I should have expected, given the nature of the thread.

Thirdly, no, I'm not gonna throw Land Raiders and Princes at him. Why? Not only do I not own the models, but that's what EVERYONE ELSE DOES at the freaking store. Which is why I went for a lower armor level. Plus, it's 1000 points. What, do you fit like two LRs and two Princes and thats it? Yeah, those'll last.

Fourthly, the funny thing is that he knows the rules just about as good as I do - I've not played in about a year and a half, and I've DEFINITELY not played with the new rulebook - whereas he has been playing for several weeks. I'd actually venture to say he knows the rules better than I, save for random rules, like how you don't get an extra attack on the charge with a Power Fist unless you've got two (true story, came up in the last game I saw him play).

Fifthly, I never actually told you guys specifics of what he has because I don't rightly know the list he's playing. Just throwing that one out there.

[Trixie]

New version in post 344:

Spoiler

Show

Out of curiosity, did anyone consider Cain's skills here?

Would the below stats be accurate? Overpowered? Too low-powered?

Commissar Cain, Hero of the Imperium

{table]WS| BS| S| T| W| I| A| Ld| Sv
6| 5| 3(5)| 3| 3| 4| 3| 10| 4+[/table]

Wargear:
Laspistol
Chainsword
Carapace Armor

Rules:
Independent Character
Furious Charge
Eternal Warrior
Aura of Discipline (page 32)
Inspirational Hero (page 63)
Emperor's Finest
Run Like Frak!

Emperor's Finest: Cain is one of the best warriors in the Imperium of Man, and his skill with humble laspistol and chainsword is legendary. Cain's weapons count as Rending and Master-crafted. In addition, due to his skill in finding even the slightest opening, all attacks he makes are resolved at +2S (already included in profile) and have AP of 4.

Run Like Frak!: Is it cowardice? Only Cain knows, but somehow, he always ends in the most advantageous position. Cain can change his 4+ save type to Cover (even when standing in the open!) at any time.

Gunner Jurgen

{table]WS|BS|S|T|W|I|A|Ld|Sv
4|4|3|3|2|4|2|8|4+[/table]

Wargear:
Lasgun
Meltagun
Carapace Armor
Odds and Ends

Rules:
Independent Character
Sworn Protector (page 57, for Cain)
Blank
Noxious "Odor"

Odds and Ends: Jurgen wears a misshapen net of bags and pouches, somehow always containing the right item for the occasion. When he is in one unit with Cain, both of them gain Acute Senses special rule, as well as Frag & Krak Grenades in their wargear.

Blank: Any psyker/daemon within 24" of Jurgen suffers -2 to his WS, BS and Ld scores. Furthermore, any psychic power or effect within 24" is canceled/suppressed on 3+ roll. If the psyker/daemon is within 12", the above penalty increases to -3, anti-psychic roll increases to 2+.

Noxious "Odor": All non-psyker models within 12" (except for Cain and Jurgen) suffer -1 to their WS and Ld scores.

[lord_khaine]

To start with Cains stats are set far to high, he is a decent fighter, but not nearly as good as you make him out to be.

More importantly, the Blank skill is far to good, as it is now its the most potent anti-psychic skill in the game.

I would make it mimic the "shadow in the warp" power of tyranids within 12 of Jungen.

[Oslecamo]

More importantly, the Blank skill is far to good, as it is now its the most potent anti-psychic skill in the game.

Well, to be honest, Jurgen is such a good anti-psyker that even other anti-psykers get confused around him, as in one of the books a group of necron pariahs turn around for no aparent when they get near him!

[Trixie]

To start with Cains stats are set far to high, he is a decent fighter, but not nearly as good as you make him out to be.

More importantly, the Blank skill is far to good, as it is now its the most potent anti-psychic skill in the game.

I would make it mimic the "shadow in the warp" power of tyranids within 12 of Jungen.

[shrug] We're talking about someone who hacked apart Ork Warbosses, Khorne Marine Berserkers and Major Daemons. Ok, he had a little help in most of these cases. Still, you do have a small point...

But, his stats are about the same as Lord Commissar or Yarrick, and I don't think they are so much better than him.

As for Jurgen... His anti-psyker ability is on par with Space Wolves (better) Rune Priests (Librarians). Ok, the weakening effect might be too much, but I tried to stay faithful to books here.

Shadow of the Warp would be good, but it doesn't hinder psykers at all, only makes Perils more often, IIRC, which is totally not what Jurgen does. He was able to grab Slanni (?) Warp Whateveritwas, an object powerful enough to kill on touch, amplify warp and and summon Daemons on a whim without any ill effect. That was orders of magnitude stronger than anything Eldar or Human (ordinary) psykers are capable of.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Pariahs/blanks already have rules in the Witch Hunters book (and differant ones in the necron book).

[Klose_the_Sith]

I've been wondering a lot lately about what the optimal formation to deploy a squad in is, cause I suspect that I am definitely not doing that.

Way I currently deploy is in a semi-dense line whenever it's 5 men and in 2 of those lines when it's 10 men. Occasionally I'll run a squad with a Sergeant in the middle with four other guys at each corner (just cause it looks cool) or hug the terrain as much as possible and give up on the idea of heretical things such as 'tactical formations' ... which doesn't happen as often as you'd hope, cause when I can get a game it's always with sparse terrain instead of dense.

Which is making me consider collecting Tau, just for the cruel lulz.

[shrug] We're talking about someone who hacked apart Ork Warbosses, Khorne Marine Berserkers and Major Daemons. Ok, he had a little help in most of these cases. Still, you do have a small point...

But, his stats are about the same as Lord Commissar or Yarrick, and I don't think they are so much better than him.

As for Jurgen... His anti-psyker ability is on par with Space Wolves (better) Rune Priests (Librarians). Ok, the weakening effect might be too much, but I tried to stay faithful to books here.

Shadow of the Warp would be good, but it doesn't hinder psykers at all, only makes Perils more often, IIRC, which is totally not what Jurgen does. He was able to grab Slanni (?) Warp Whateveritwas, an object powerful enough to kill on touch, amplify warp and and summon Daemons on a whim without any ill effect. That was orders of magnitude stronger than anything Eldar or Human (ordinary) psykers are capable of.

Surely the issue here is that you're hoping for a faithful representation of their in-universe ability to find a place in the game?

Cause my Marines keep on being depressingly not invincible

[Trixie]

Pariahs/blanks already have rules in the Witch Hunters book (and differant ones in the necron book).

There are none, unless you mean that assassin. Both are somewhat weak, artificial blanks.

Ok, let's have a second try, based on existing rules:

Commissar Cain, Hero of the Imperium

{table]WS| BS| S| T| W| I| A| Ld| Sv
5| 5| 3| 3| 3| 4| 3| 10| 4+[/table]

Wargear:
Trusty Laspistol
Old Chainsword
Carapace Armor

Rules:
Independent Character
Furious Charge
Eternal Warrior
Aura of Discipline (page 32)
Inspirational Hero (page 63)
Emperor's Finest
Run Like Frak!

Emperor's Finest: Cain is one of the best warriors in the Imperium of Man, and his skill with humble laspistol and chainsword is legendary. He can turn the tide of any battle... If he finds courage to do it, that is. Make a Leadership test once in the beginning of each player's turn. If passed, Cain gains +1 WS and BS, and can re-roll one to hit roll this turn.

Run Like Frak!: Is it cowardice? Only Cain knows, but somehow, he always ends in the most advantageous position. Cain can change his 4+ save type to Cover (even when standing in the open!) at any time.

Old Chainsword: It might not seem like much, but this is weapon Cain wielded all his life and which he knows better than himself. Cain's close combat attacks gain +1S and have Rending special rule.

Trusty Laspistol:
{table]Range |Strength |AP |Type
18"| 3| 4| Assault 2, Sniper[/table]


Gunner Jurgen

{table]WS|BS|S|T|W|I|A|Ld|Sv
4|4|3|3|2|4|2|8|4+[/table]

Wargear:
Lasgun
Meltagun
Carapace Armor
Odds and Ends

Rules:
Independent Character
Sworn Protector (page 57, for Cain)
Abomination
Blank

Odds and Ends: Jurgen wears a misshapen net of bags and pouches, somehow always containing the right item for the occasion. When he is in one unit with Cain, both of them gain Acute Senses special rule, as well as Frag & Krak Grenades in their wargear.

Abomination: All models (except for Cain and Jurgen) within 24" of Jurgen suffer -1 to their Ld score. Within 12", the above penalty increases to -2. If the model is psyker or daemon, the penalty doubles to (respectively) -2 and -4.

Blank: Any psychic power or effect within 24" of Jurgen is canceled/suppressed on 4+ roll. If the power/effect targets Jurgen (or any model within 6" of him) directly, it is canceled/suppressed on 2+.

[Arcanoi]

Snipers are always Strength X, aren't they?

[Trixie]

Surely the issue here is that you're hoping for a faithful representation of their in-universe ability to find a place in the game?

Nah, if he had the stats from the books, he would need to be in-game clone of Sanguinor.

Nope, all I hope for is to get reasonable rules that would allow him to do at least some of the things he did, for example, to not lose every time against foes he reliably killed

Snipers are always Strength X, aren't they?

Yup, but they count as Strength 3 if their Strength is required, and since Laspistol has Strength 3 anyway I inserted '3' for prettiness

I don't like 'X' in weapon tabels for some reason.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Nah, if he had the stats from the books, he would need to be in-game clone of Sanguinor.

Nope, all I hope for is to get reasonable rules that would allow him to do at least some of the things he did, for example, to not lose every time against foes he reliably killed

For an accurate representation of that he'd just be a Commissar played with a loaded die

[Cheesegear]

Dude, I looked at the first post and couldn't see it easily in five seconds - if he formats it from your preferred method is it really a 'sin' worthy of making him feel like an idiot?

Someone else complained about it first. Not that that's an excuse. But, it seems whenever I say something negative, a lot of people write defenses at my posts, rather than one that's three or four posts up.

Ok, found it under two spoiler tags - hardly something someone who hasn't read the entire thread would find easily, and hardly anything 'official'.

There's nothing I can do about it being under two spoiler tags unless I make it unspoilered and take massive amounts of post. Still, it's actually a recent link, and it's mentioned specifically outside all the spoiler tags.
...I might change it, now that it's been brought up.

As for it's 'official' quality, it's the way I see (good) lists written on B&C, Dakka, BoLS and Warseer. And it's currently the way I see GW employees at my local store teaching kids to write a list. Even you, yourself have a preferred method of writing lists that bears a pretty close resemblance to the way I write mine.

having a go at them for not bowing before the altar of 'the guide' if just plain rude.

That's certainly not what I said at all. What I said was, there's a link to it in the first post of the thread. The point of the...Harsh...Tone implied that it already should have been read before. No, I never said anybody must listen to what I've written, but, at least take it under advisement.
I still see lists that give a 'Flamer' a whole line to itself, and I believe that it's a waste of space to use a whole line for a single word.

However, since I wrote How To Write A List, I have found a vast improvement in how people write their lists, and their all-around general easy-to-readness, and I'm sure there are more than a few people who agree with me.

You are not the only one here capable of giving advice you know, and not all of us here agree with everything in your guide.

...And I keep telling people that if they disagree then they should say something. I've changed the Chaos Space Marine portion of the guide three or four times because of what people here have said.
The Tau portion was pretty piss-poor when I wrote it. But, people pointed out where I was wrong and what else was good/bad that I missed or what they disagreed with, and I changed it.

If people say nothing, then I take that to be an agreement of everything I've said. And it seems, Zorg that you're the only one who says people disagree with me, without actually saying what, specifically, they disagree with.

You've said, now, that you can't find How to Write An Army List, so, now I need to make that easier to find, right?

What, do you fit like two LRs and two Princes and thats it? Yeah, those'll last.

That's why I said Vindicators and Defilers. And they do last if you have enough of them.

Fourthly, the funny thing is that he knows the rules just about as good as I do - I've not played in about a year and a half, and I've DEFINITELY not played with the new rulebook - whereas he has been playing for several weeks.

Apologies. That's not what I read from your posts. I read that he had played other wargames, and that he was only just starting to get into 40K. Then there's you playing Chaos Marines using a Lash Sorcerer (even though a Daemon Prince would be better, it doesn't particularly matter)...

What I (and it seems a lot of other people read) was;
1. You play Chaos Marines, your friend plays Tau
2. Your friend beats you a lot (but, apparently in other wargames not 40K).
3. You want to make tailor a list that will help you stomp your opponent who may or may not be very proficient in the rules.

'The Hate' mostly comes from number three. Because tailoring is Not Cool. Especially against 'newbie' opponents.

Fifthly, I never actually told you guys specifics of what he has because I don't rightly know the list he's playing. Just throwing that one out there.

You did, in a round about way. Saying that he only has 2 Crisis Suits and not all that many Fire Warriors. So, straight off I already know how you could tailor your list to beat him, but it does make me wonder what he does take if not Fire Warriors and Crisis Suits. And, if you're trying to tailor (which it certainly did sound like you wanted to do), we'd need to know that. Not that most of us are impressed by the idea.

On page 7 or 8 of the thread, evisiron went to a tournament with a partner with a Chaos Marine list. That had 1000 points of Chaos Marines and it's definitely something you can use to stomp your opponent, Tau or otherwise.

I've been wondering a lot lately about what the optimal formation to deploy a squad in is, cause I suspect that I am definitely not doing that.

Optimal formation?
Aside from putting your special/heavy weapons towards the front of the unit for maximum range, and spreading your models out to avoid Blast weapons, I think you might be reading too much into tactics that don't exist.

The only thing that matters, really, is placement of Independent Characters and Sergeants with Power Fists, and only if you're absolutely crazy on exploiting the 6" pile-in moves.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Optimal formation?
Aside from putting your special/heavy weapons towards the front of the unit for maximum range, and spreading your models out to avoid Blast weapons, I think you might be reading too much into tactics that don't exist.

The only thing that matters, really, is placement of Independent Characters and Sergeants with Power Fists, and only if you're absolutely crazy on exploiting the 6" pile-in moves.

Somebody has to get tactical in levels that don't exist though, right?

Either way, I get paranoid about blast weapons and the ensuing clustered v scattered debate I hold with myself. The advantage of my line is that it has a little of both, but the weakness is templates.

[Deth Muncher]

@ Cheesegear: My apologies too, because I may or may not have been clear about his abilities. But yes, I generally agree that tailor-making a list is rampant douchebaggery, just to be clear. But enough on this. I'll go take a look at the first post, as well as that list on page 7 or 8.

[Lycan 01]

I hate to be a bother, but I'm still curious as to what the best way to build a "Tanky" Looted Wagon is. 'Ard Case, Boomgun... but what else? Rokkits or Shootas? I'm clueless... I'll probably make the halftrack into a Wartrakk just for simplicity, and since I've been told Looted Wagons make bad transports, though I'm not sure what weapons to give it.

Also, does anybody know the typical tourney stance on converted Lootas? Like I said, I've got some zanny ideas for Deffguns like a Big Shoota welded together with an Imperial Missile Launcher, with some Stikkbombs strapped on for good measure, plus a bulky backpack or bipod. Just out of curiousity...


Oh, and I finally came up with a name for my Ork army and their Warboss. What happened was, some Orks commandeered a Space Hulk, only to discover it was already occupied by a TON of things, ranging from Tyranids to Chaos cultists to Daemons to other Orks. X amount of years later when the Space Hulk finally exited the Warp, one Warboss had risen through the ranks to unite all the Orks inside the Space Hulk under his banner and completely wipe out everything else. Taking up the title Ulkstrakka, Orkish for "Space Hulk Veteran," he and his Waaaaaagghh!! completely vandalized the now-conquered Space Hulk, taking everything they could use and earning their Clan name - Da Vandalz.

Hence why their gear and vehicles are so ramshackle and hodge-podge - its literally scrounged from everywhere.

[Cheesegear]

Like I said, I've got some zanny ideas for Deffguns like a Big Shoota welded together with an Imperial Missile Launcher...

Pretty sure those make Kombi-Rokkits.
...Unless you mean the 'tube' bits, yeah, that might work.

It shouldn't be too hard to get a couple of shootas and glue them together to make Deffguns. You don't really have to overthink it. Look at the official models. Most decent Orks would be able to make those out of spare parts.

[Lycan 01]

No no, my Kombi-Rokkits are gonna be Shootas with underslung Imperial Mortars and/or Imperial Mortar Rounds. And yes, I mean the rocket tubes, but the missiles themselves may end up strapped on to a Deffgun or two.


Should I throw a Mek into the mix?

[DranWork]

you mean a mek with a kff right? Cause if you do they are amazingly awesome and stuff..

[Lycan 01]

Nah, not a Big Mek, just a regular Mek to stick with the Lootas. I may get/build a Big Mek later on, and probably give him a Kustom Force Field.

[DranWork]

Id advise getting a Big Mek, my flatty uses one as his HQ option and takes the second hq option as either a weirdboy or a warboss depending on his list. The KFF is great for vehical protection

[Cheesegear]

Nah, not a Big Mek, just a regular Mek to stick with the Lootas.

If your Lootas are in a Trukk or Battlewagon with Killcannon (recommended), then having a Mek or two with Grot Oilers to make Tools rolls each can be really handy.

[Lycan 01]

I'll probably convert my Trukk into a Battlewagon after I get it put together. I'm gonna extend the cargo bay and instal running boards using various hunts of plasticard and spare bits. I dunno about a Killkannon, though, since the ability to carry 20 models would allow it to Blitzkrieg enemy positions with Boyz or Nobs + Warboss.

Can two units be in one transport? I want to say no, but I can't check right now.

[Cheesegear]

the ability to carry 20 models would allow it to Blitzkrieg enemy positions with Boyz or Nobs + Warboss.

Someone hasn't been on the receiving end of 11 Lootas and a Killcannon with a Big Mek and KFF.

Can two units be in one transport? I want to say no, but I can't check right now.

With one exception, no. A Battlewagon is not that one exception. If you really care, you can figure out what than one exception to the rule is, but, you shouldn't be surprised when you find out what it is.