Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.

[Lycan 01]

Well, I don't have a spare "big" model like a bulky Nob or Warboss, so I can't really make a Big Mek right now anyway.

Hm. But if my Lootas are for holding objectives, why should I be driving them towards the enemy?

Uuuuuuh... Man, this is gonna bug me. Is it a Space Marines vehicle? Its a Space Marines vehicle, isn't it. How am I supposed to figure this out? XD

[crazedloon]

its the storm raven

(though super heavies can also do it but that is apoc only)

[Cheesegear]

Hm. But if my Lootas are for holding objectives, why should I be driving them towards the enemy?

No-one said you had to move forwards (and Lootas aren't Troops and can't hold objectives). The Battlewagon is for mobile cover, and LoS Blocker if need be, that rolls around with a Killcannon being hard to kill due a Big Mek with KFF, and being harder to stop because of Meks inside with Tools and Oilers.

It's the ranged Infantry Killer Engine of Doom.

It's a far cheaper alternative that works just as well as Nobz in a Battlewagon. Except, well, Ork players are Ork players and I haven't met too many of them who can see past a stompy unit of Nobz. Which is unfortunate. As everyone now expects them in any competitive list and deals with them appropriately.

[Lycan 01]

Ah, I thought Lootas could at least Hold the objective. So, Battlewagon should be for Lootas and Meks + a Killkannon, not a big Boyz Mob or my Nobs + Boss? Though that actually may give my Nobs and Boyz the best chance to slog across the field, since hopefully my opponent will go into a "FIRE EVERYTHING!!" siezure fit once the Battlewagon and Lootas open fire...

My Nobs aren't my Dead Stompy unit. They're decently geared, but not a one-squad Waaaaggh!! by any means. I've tried to actually spread my army's "oomph" out through all the units, so that my tactics can be more fluid, I won't be screwed if my "main" unit gets wiped, and my poor opponent doesn't know what the heck to shoot at.

[Cheesegear]

Ah, I thought Lootas could at least Hold the objective. So, Battlewagon should be for Lootas and Meks + a Killkannon, not a big Boyz Mob or my Nobs + Boss?

Well, that's not what I said at all. I said Meks are very much worth it if you're running Lootas in Battlewagons or Trukks. Because they're very killy. Not Nobs and Warboss in a Battlewagon are not as good.

Lootas in a Battlewagon is certainly more surprising, or more unique than Nobs in a Battlewagon. However, Nobs are (usually) Troops and can actually make use of a BW getting them accross the field.

If you're not using a Battlewagon or Trukk, why take a Mek with your Lootas? Which is how this conversation all started. It's certainly not worth losing a S7 Heavy D3 weapon for.

My Nobs aren't my Dead Stompy unit.

Well, there's your problem right there.

I've tried to actually spread my army's "oomph" out through all the units, so that my tactics can be more fluid, I won't be screwed if my "main" unit gets wiped, and my poor opponent doesn't know what the heck to shoot at.

Sounds like you're better off with more Trukks instead of one Battlewagon, then. Single Battlewagons are about as useful as single Vindicators or Defilers.

[Winterwind]

Optimal formation?
Aside from putting your special/heavy weapons towards the front of the unit for maximum range, and spreading your models out to avoid Blast weapons, I think you might be reading too much into tactics that don't exist.

The only thing that matters, really, is placement of Independent Characters and Sergeants with Power Fists, and only if you're absolutely crazy on exploiting the 6" pile-in moves.

Well, there are also those silly shenanigans of the type "I make a loooong line of models spaced apart as far as possible stretching from my actual formation to something that gives a bonus to everything around it.

Like this:
O.O.O.O
O.O.O.O..O..O..O..O..O......M
O.O.O.O
O.O.O.O

Where the Os are Ork Boys and M is a Big Mek with a custom forcefield. The Ork Boys are actually completely elsewhere, but they have a single model within 6" of the Big Mek due to a single long line of Orks stretching 12" away from the Orks towards the Big Mek.

I loathe that this actually works, by the way.

[Ninja Chocobo]

I hate to be a bother, but I'm still curious as to what the best way to build a "Tanky" Looted Wagon is. 'Ard Case, Boomgun... but what else? Rokkits or Shootas? I'm clueless...

Nothing else. Boomgun, Ard Case. That's it. With a Rhino AV they're not going to live very long, so it's a bit of a waste putting any more points into it.

It's the ranged Infantry Killer Engine of Doom.

Problem. Your Lootas really should be hitting light vehicles instead of infantry.
Problem. Your Lootas have a 48" range, but the Killcannon has a 24" range.
Problem. Your Deffguns are Heavy weapons, so if the Wagon's moved, even half an inch, they can't fire. Which you'll want it to do, considering the Killcannon's short range.

If you want an infantry-killing shooty Wagon take a KC, Kannon, and fill it with Burnas.

e: I was trying to find Lycan's list, but I came across this:

Ork Madboyz with actual madness special rules

I've read these. I don't want them back. They were an absolute cluster-zog of random tables.

e2: Problem is, Lycan, you're spreading your stompiness too thin. Oh, also, swap the Big Shoota on the Kans out for a third Grotzooka.

[Cheesegear]

Problem. Your Lootas really should be hitting light vehicles instead of infantry.

I've never seen it as a problem. Given that one of my better opponents takes two such units I am well aware of how it works.

Your Lootas have a 48" range, but the Killcannon has a 24" range.

I've never seen it as a problem. Given that one of my better opponents takes two such units I am well aware of how it works.

Problem. Your Deffguns are Heavy weapons, so if the Wagon's moved, even half an inch, they can't fire. Which you'll want it to do, considering the Killcannon's short range.

I've never seen it as a problem. Given that one of my better opponents takes two such units I am well aware of how it works.

[Surrealistik]

They're like Hammernators, but worse. Also, they're in the Chaos Marines Codex, not Daemons.

I'm referring to the OP which makes references to the Chaos Marine marks. Further yes, they're not quite as tough as Hammernators, but they make for excellent durability on the cheap.

[Cheesegear]

Further yes, they're not quite as tough as Hammernators, but they make for excellent durability on the cheap.

Not really. 185 Points for 5, at T4 with 1 wound each isn't exactly durable. And 185 points for only five models isn't exactly cheap either.

No more durable than Thousand Sons, which are Troops and carry AP3 ammo. The points costs are about the same.

[crazedloon]

I've never seen it as a problem. Given that one of my better opponents takes two such units I am well aware of how it works.

that is not a reasonable response to some valid issues. Simply put you are assuming that it is a sound strategy because a "good" player in your format takes it.

Instead of repeating yourself 3 times to be a jerk you might have tried explaining why you think they work as that player uses them or even what his basic strategy with them are. Perhaps your assessment of his skill is not misplaced and he is able to make a bad unit work, thus your suggestion could be a bad one. Instead you give a snarky useless response.

As to address the Lootas in a wagon I would say it is indeed a waste (particularly with the cannon) You are paying quite a bit for only a marginally better resilience. You are better of placing the lootas in terrain and sitting back while the same wagon they would have been in takes an actual combat squad to combat. Now instead of clumping your high priority targets in 1 location (because lootas and wagons are rather high priority) you have split them causing a reduction in the fire on ether 1.

[Ninja Chocobo]

I've never seen it as a problem. Given that one of my better opponents takes two such units I am well aware of how it works.

If you're taking two Killcannons you might as well just stick your Lootas in the back field where they can actually shoot things.

[Surrealistik]

Not really. 185 Points for 5, at T4 with 1 wound each isn't exactly durable. And 185 points for only five models isn't exactly cheap either.

No more durable than Thousand Sons, which are Troops and carry AP3 ammo. The points costs are about the same.

AP 2 coupled with T4 and Invul 3 is pretty damn durable. For 37 apiece in conjunction with everything else you get, that ain't bad at all. In contrast, a minimum size squad with an Aspiring Sorcerer runs you at a minimum of 162 points, averaging 32.4 points. Now while AP 3 Bolters are nice and Doombolt isn't bad, all the other perks the Termies enjoy, as well as their superior flexibility (yes, it costs more points, but gotta love deep striking combi-meltas, and the ability to actually survive the counterattack, totally worth it for wrecking a vehicle on demand) definitely make them better options for the points.

Further, the additional point of armour makes all the difference given how penetration is an all or nothing deal, and it basically takes super heavy anti-vehicle/plasma/power weapons to really sheer through those termies (that will still take the hits like champs relatively speaking); which means your big guns will be taking that much less dakka if your opponent chooses to focus on them.

[Cheesegear]

all the other perks the Termies enjoy, as well as their superior flexibility (yes, it costs more points, but gotta love deep striking combi-meltas, and the ability to actually survive the counterattack, totally worth it for wrecking a vehicle on demand) definitely make them better options for the points.

Short response; Survivability isn't everything. It only counts in Annihilation.

Long response;

If you're paying more points for Terminators, then Thousand Sons should also get a similar increase in points, allowing for more numbers. Which, as a Troops choice, is kind of exactly what you want. And, as a Troops choice, you'd be taking Thousand Sons anyway, rather than optional Terminators.
Although, you can have both, but, given that one is a Troops choice, why not take more Thousand Sons? For 3 Troop Units, rather than 2 Troop units and a sub-optimal Elites choice?

The other problem, is that Tzeentch Terminators are taking the same slot as Nurgle, Slaanesh or Khorne Terminators (which are all better choices). And Infiltrating Chosen with the same Meltaguns, Flamers or Plasmaguns that your Terminators only get one shot with from Combi-Weapons. Then they're stuck with Bolters.

Infiltrating Chosen happen on Turn 1. Deep Striking Combi-Melta Terminators happens on Turn 2 or worse. And Chosen are half the cost of Terminators, and they can take the Mark of Tzeentch as well, if they're not already ultilising the best cover on the board already from Infiltrate, and making better use from the Mark of Nurgle, Slaanesh or Khorne.

Outflanking happens at the same time as Deep Strike. But, Infiltrating is pretty rad.

One of the flaws/super-awesomitude of the Chaos Marine Codex, is that you don't really need to look outside the Troop units. Because each and every one of them is awesome in their own way.

Then you've got Plague Marines who are T5 with FNP. Who are still Troops, and are just as tough - if not moreso - than both Thousand Sons and their relevant Terminators.

basically takes super heavy anti-vehicle/plasma/power weapons to really sheer through those termies (that will still take the hits like champs relatively speaking); which means your big guns will be taking that much less dakka if your opponent chooses to focus on them.

You're assuming your opponent is a moron, then? And doesn't take anti-vehicle and anti-Infantry. Or doesn't already have some way of dealing with Terminators?

Everytime my opponent shoots my vehicles instead of my Terminators I laugh at him. Terminators need to die. Vehicles don't.

Personally, I will gladly shoot S10, AP2 Ordnance at Terminators. I've got 9 Krak Missiles and 8 (Combi-)Meltas to deal with vehicles. I spend more time shooting my Vindicators at Infantry than I ever do at vehicles. Sure, it's S10 Ordnance, but, it's much better at killing Terminators any Infantry. Especially if I roll out a Null Zone from my Librarian which turns Hammernators (and therefore Tzeentch Terminators) into crap. Besides, I already have an Alpha Strike unit to take out vehicles.

Your opponent should already have anti-vehicle measures. Terminators shouldn't be that difficult to deal with. Troops who can sit on an objective throwing out Doombolts and other AP3 ammunition are far more valuable (even if you do take into account the extra points) than 4+ Invulnerable Terminators.

[Surrealistik]

If you're paying more points for Terminators, then Thousand Sons should also get a similar increase in points, allowing for more numbers. Which, as a Troops choice, is kind of exactly what you want. And, as a Troops choice, you'd be taking Thousand Sons anyway, rather than optional Terminators.
Although, you can have both, but, given that one is a Troops choice, why not take more Thousand Sons? For 3 Troop Units, rather than 2 Troop units and a sub-optimal Elites choice?

My point is even when you discount the Combi-Meltas, the Termies are still overall a better choice than TS. When you factor them in they're still, even especially better than an equivalent point total of TS.

The other problem, is that Tzeentch Terminators are taking the same slot as Nurgle, Slaanesh or Khorne Terminators (which are all better choices). And Infiltrating Chosen with the same Meltaguns, Flamers or Plasmaguns that your Terminators only get one shot with from Combi-Weapons. Then they're stuck with Bolters.

Nurgle better than Tzeentch, particularly for the cost? Don't think so. Pretty sure the math on this is easily in favour of Tzeentch, barring swarms of lesser powered shots. Khorne and Slaanesh is pretty debatable.

Infiltrating Chosen happen on Turn 1. Deep Striking Combi-Melta Terminators happens on Turn 2 or worse. And Chosen are half the cost of Terminators, and they can take the Mark of Tzeentch as well, if they're not already ultilising the best cover on the board already from Infiltrate, and making better use from the Mark of Nurgle, Slaanesh or Khorne.

Outflanking happens at the same time as Deep Strike. But, Infiltrating is pretty rad.

Granted; I am not trying to claim however, that they're _the best choice_ for their points or what they do.

One of the flaws/super-awesomitude of the Chaos Marine Codex, is that you don't really need to look outside the Troop units. Because each and every one of them is awesome in their own way.

Disagree. TS and Noise Marines are pretty terrible compared to the alternatives given their point cost.

Then you've got Plague Marines who are T5 with FNP. Who are still Troops, and are just as tough - if not moreso - than both Thousand Sons and their relevant Terminators.

Plague Marines are the obvious go-to infantry, and of course are better for the points, no question. Nothing I'm disputing.

You're assuming your opponent is a moron, then? And doesn't take anti-vehicle and anti-Infantry. Or doesn't already have some way of dealing with Terminators?

Everytime my opponent shoots my vehicles instead of my Terminators I laugh at him. Terminators need to die. Vehicles don't.

Personally, I will gladly shoot S10, AP2 Ordnance at Terminators. I've got 9 Krak Missiles and 8 (Combi-)Meltas to deal with vehicles. I spend more time shooting my Vindicators at Infantry than I ever do at vehicles. Sure, it's S10 Ordnance, but, it's much better at killing Terminators any Infantry. Especially if I roll out a Null Zone from my Librarian which turns Hammernators (and therefore Tzeentch Terminators) into crap. Besides, I already have an Alpha Strike unit to take out vehicles.

Your opponent should already have anti-vehicle measures. Terminators shouldn't be that difficult to deal with. Troops who can sit on an objective throwing out Doombolts and other AP3 ammunition are far more valuable (even if you do take into account the extra points) than 4+ Invulnerable Terminators.

I'm more than glad to trade 200 points of combi-melta Termies for a vehicle of my choice and a turn of at least partial reprieve for my bigger guns. Couple that with the fact that the Termies will probably withstand anything but a mass of high strength and AP pie plates ordinance (which I obviously make a point of destroying), and they pay for themselves, while typically surpassing the performance of an equivalent point total worth of TS.

But that all said, the comparative merits of Tzeentch Termies are moot when CSM is really all about the Plague Marines and Oblit spam when it comes to building an optimal list.

[Cheesegear]

My point is even when you discount the Combi-Meltas, the Termies are still overall a better choice than TS. When you factor them in they're still, even especially better than an equivalent point total of TS.

Troops > Everything. If you can do something with a Troops choice (almost regardless of points cost), then you should take that unit over any similar choice from any other FO Slot.

Nurgle better than Tzeentch, particularly for the cost? Don't think so [...] they're the best choice for their points or what they do.

Which is another way of saying that if you've got points to spare, you should take almost anything else. I've never seen Tzeentch Terminators in any of the tournaments I've been in, except for that one time, and that was a Themed List, and it didn't do very well. Well, for Chaos Marines, it didn't do too well.

Disagree. TS and Noise Marines are pretty terrible compared to the alternatives given their point cost.

Well that's misguided. Tournament lists pretty much exclusively consist of Noise Marines, Thousand Sons and Plague Marines.
Plague Marines being the most popular easiest, most predictable and most comp-losing choice.

Couple that with the fact that the Termies will probably withstand anything but a mass of high strength and AP pie plates ordinance

Which any list will have at least a ton of...

CSM is really all about the Plague Marines and Oblit spam when it comes to building an optimal list.

Wrong. Like Orks and Nob Bikers, you're taking the easy way out where you don't have to think too hard and lose comp all over the place.

[Closet_Skeleton]

My point is even when you discount the Combi-Meltas, the Termies are still overall a better choice than TS. When you factor them in they're still, even especially better than an equivalent point total of TS.

Not really.

Their invulnerable save is the same.

Terminators have a better normal save, but the fact that you probably only have one unit of them means that they'll never be hit by a weapon with less than AP 2. The comparitive strength of 5 terminators and 5 thousand sons is irrelevant when smart players are taking 30+ thousand sons. Which you can afford to do because thousand sons are troops and therefore the backbone of your army. Of course any tzeentch themed list would have both tons of thousand sons and a handful of tzeentch terminators but that's a differant kind of list building.

Terminators tend to either deepstrike or take a land raider. One means they're not there for half the game, the other one means you're spending 200 points just to move them around.

Terminators have twin linked relentless bolters, thousand sons have AP 3 bolters relentless bolters. BS 4 twin linked isn't that great and AP 3 will do a lot more damage to space marines. The terminators can take a heavy flamer or an autocannon as well but that's more points.

Terminators are way better in combat of course, but you need a land raider to guarantee they survive that long. On that front, if you want your terminators in melee you want a differant mark anyway. If you think initiative 5 terminators are worse than 4+ invun terminators then you've never been hit by furious charge lightning claw terminators (Black Templars and Blood Angels both get them). I5 power weapons are amazing. Mark of tzeentch is better than mark of nurgle against power fists/thunder hammers and many monstrous creatures, but if you don't have storm shield terminators then you never send them into combat with a monstrous creature or storm shield terminators and a power fist is either just 2 of a unit's attacks or you've already butched all his standard terminators due to striking first.

S4 power weapon VS T4 4+ invun
12 hits, 6 wounds, 3 failed saves

S4 power weapon VS T5 5+ invun
12 hits, 4 wounds, 3* failed saves.

*rounding down of course

They're about the same because both are just adding +1 to a certain area.

If you're fighting the dreaded hammernators you want mark of khorne for the extra attacks. Killing things before they can kill you is a kind of defence after all.

If 4+ invun terminators were so great then everyone would have taken storm shields back in 4th and 3rd editions. (3rd of course had true cult terminators, so back then tzeentch termies were awesome).

1 turn of deepstriked melta guns isn't worth several turns of range 24 AP 3. Assuming you're killing marines, but niether are that great against Orks.

Simply:
Thousand sons shoot better
Other marked termies assault better.
Other marked termies shoot the same
Terminators aren't scoring

[Cheesegear]

Simply:
Thousand sons shoot better
Other marked termies assault better.
Other marked termies shoot the same
Terminators aren't scoring

QFT. It's basically everything I said, but way more coherent.

Also, the 2+ armour only saves 50% more than 3+ armour. The fact that Thousand Sons cost less, also lets you have more Thousand Sons anyway, so let them have their 50% extra failed saves, because you have 50% more bodies to fail saves with.

Oh, and Thousand Sons come with Force Weapons, which are for winners. Tournament lists with Thousand Sons (because Plague Marines aren't the only choice) basically saturate the field with Force Weapons and Wind of Chaos...And Metal Bawkses. It works. Kills Nob Bikers pretty easily. Play Musical Wounds with that action, fool.

[Surrealistik]

Troops > Everything. If you can do something with a Troops choice (almost regardless of points cost), then you should take that unit over any similar choice from any other FO Slot.

That's a pretty oversimplified perspective. It depends, it's hardly an automatic decision that does not or barely takes into consideration point cost.

Which is another way of saying that if you've got points to spare, you should take almost anything else. I've never seen Tzeentch Terminators in any of the tournaments I've been in, except for that one time, and that was a Themed List, and it didn't do very well. Well, for Chaos Marines, it didn't do too well.

Sure. Did I even try to argue that TTs were tournament viable or optimal? Pretty sure the answer is resolutely no. Notable amongst the other Chaos Terminator types? Yes.

Well that's misguided. Tournament lists pretty much exclusively consist of Noise Marines, Thousand Sons and Plague Marines.
Plague Marines being the most popular easiest, most predictable and most comp-losing choice.

Noise Marines I've at least seen with some degree of consistency on tournament lists. Thousand Sons? Hell no. Plague Marines are far more popular for good reason, and 'comp-losing'? Seriously?

Which any list will have at least a ton of...

And again, even if it's there by the time the Termies come in and destroy a vehicle of choice, chances are between the damage inflicted, and the firepower absorbed, they'll have at least paid for themselves.

Wrong. Like Orks and Nob Bikers, you're taking the easy way out where you don't have to think too hard and lose comp all over the place.

There's a good reason why PMs, Lash Princes and Oblits are core to most competitive Chaos lists, and it's not because they lose all over the place (though CSM is definitely not the most competitively viable race/faction). 'Spam' is hyperbole on my part; clearly the best lists are nuanced.

Their invulnerable save is the same.

I'm aware; that's pretty evident.

Terminators have a better normal save, but the fact that you probably only have one unit of them means that they'll never be hit by a weapon with less than AP 2. The comparitive strength of 5 terminators and 5 thousand sons is irrelevant when smart players are taking 30+ thousand sons. Which you can afford to do because thousand sons are troops and therefore the backbone of your army. Of course any tzeentch themed list would have both tons of thousand sons and a handful of tzeentch terminators but that's a differant kind of list building.

Okay, sure, but the main thing is that they are almost guaranteed to pay for themselves with combimeltas, even if the enemy throws everything they've got at them when they warp in and basically a vehicle of your choice. In that sense they are much more reliable than an equivalent or even superior number of TS'.

Terminators have twin linked relentless bolters, thousand sons have AP 3 bolters relentless bolters. BS 4 twin linked isn't that great and AP 3 will do a lot more damage to space marines. The terminators can take a heavy flamer or an autocannon as well but that's more points.

HF is cheap and well worth the 5 points. Combimeltas on several Ts essentially guarantee a kill of a vehicle of your choice upon DSing. Yes AP 3 bolters are great versus SMs, and SM-like targets but it's also a fairly situational bonus.

Terminators are way better in combat of course, but you need a land raider to guarantee they survive that long. On that front, if you want your terminators in melee you want a differant mark anyway. If you think initiative 5 terminators are worse than 4+ invun terminators then you've never been hit by furious charge lightning claw terminators (Black Templars and Blood Angels both get them). I5 power weapons are amazing.

If you really want to exploit +1 Init, you have to spend quite a few points to optimize the Slaanesh Termies for melee. There is no such secondary expenditures involved for TTs.

Mark of tzeentch is better than mark of nurgle against power fists/thunder hammers and many monstrous creatures, but if you don't have storm shield terminators then you never send them into combat with a monstrous creature or storm shield terminators and a power fist is either just 2 of a unit's attacks or you've already butched all his standard terminators due to striking first.

Uh, not to mention every AP 2, Strength hojillion weapon in the game that will be focused on your Termies the moment they show up and start wrecking things. MoT costs less and does more, and at worst, basically comes out even with MoN. That simple.

If 4+ invun terminators were so great then everyone would have taken storm shields back in 4th and 3rd editions. (3rd of course had true cult terminators, so back then tzeentch termies were awesome).

Wow, why is there this persistent misconception that I think 4+ invul termies are 'awesome'? Seriously? I think they're better than most termie alternatives in most cases with minimal expenditures involved.

1 turn of deepstriked melta guns isn't worth several turns of range 24 AP 3. Assuming you're killing marines, but niether are that great against Orks.

Pretty big assumption in decisive favour of the TTs that makes any further comparison a foregone conclusion. That said if the marines are heavily mechanized it becomes more even.


Anyways, just as I field armies and lists picked from my friend's stuff because the interest is not sufficient to inevitably spend thousands upon thousands of dollars on a game I know I will burn out on (likely within a year or two), so to is my interest insufficient to persist a lengthy argument in this thread. I graciously bow out of any further debate on the matter.

[Closet_Skeleton]

That's a pretty oversimplified perspective. It depends, it's hardly an automatic decision that does not or barely takes into consideration point cost.

Only troops can take objectives. I'm sure there are players who just say "annihilation or I can't be bothered" every game but its not how the game is meant to be played. I tend to take minimum troops every game (unless playing tyranids) and almost always draw unless I'm against a bad player.

And again, even if it's there by the time the Termies come in and destroy a vehicle of choice, chances are between the damage inflicted, and the firepower absorbed, they'll have at least paid for themselves.

Except that the only 200+ point vehicles that anyone uses with regularity ar land raiders. Not that "paying for themselves" is really a determinable concept in any shape or form.

If you really want to exploit +1 Init, you have to spend quite a few points to optimize the Slaanesh Termies for melee. There is no such secondary expenditures involved for TTs.

Not really. You have power weapons to start with. The only other worthwhile option would be champions or lightning claws, which just aren't necessary at all. Anyway, mark of tzeentch + 5 combi meltas is 60 points, mark of slaanesh + 5 lightning claws is 65 points.

[Gauntlet]

Except that the only 200+ point vehicles that anyone uses with regularity ar land raiders. Not that "paying for themselves" is really a determinable concept in any shape or form.

Well, there's Monoliths, but they're practically immune to Meltas anyway.

[Winterwind]

Well, there's Monoliths, but they're practically immune to Meltas anyway.

Many Leman Russ variants also get to 200 points or more if they take a few upgrades (sponsons, and the like). At least the players at my local shop tend to run just about all their Leman Russes at 200 points or more.

___

Continuing my point from my previous post (which was kinda ignored), there is another way to take advantage of the exact formation of units (and it's just as ridiculous and rules-abusive as the other one).

If you have a unit A and unit B, you can wrap them around each other like this:

_BBBBAAAA
BAAAABBBBA
BAAAABBBBA
BAAAABBBBA
BAAAABBBBA
_BBBBBAAAA

This way, both units give permanent 4+ cover to each other, because no matter from where you are shooting, more than half of each unit is covered by the other unit.
Of course, they also grant everything they shoot at cover, but then, if their target is something like marines, the 4+ cover will be worse than the target's armour anyway, so it won't matter.
The only disadvantage is that this is pretty much immobile. One would have to untangle this Yin-Yang symbol first before it would be allowed to move.

[Myatar_Panwar]

I tend to take minimum troops every game (unless playing tyranids) and almost always draw unless I'm against a bad player.

What? A minimum is.... a minimum.

edit: Oh never-mind.... I get it

[evisiron]

If you have a unit A and unit B, you can wrap them around each other like this:

_BBBBAAAA
BAAAABBBBA
BAAAABBBBA
BAAAABBBBA
BAAAABBBBA
_BBBBBAAAA

Haha, nice! While rather restricted in terms of battlefield application, I applaud the creativity.

[DranWork]

I have a local guard player that does that once his Chimera's are destroyed winterwind. Just think of how much of a PITA it is when it comes to assaulting this unit as well ahha.

[Wraith]

It's amazing just how much difference a Squad formation can make, if you really put your mind to it. I haven't yet come across a serious discussion and dissection of the subject on the internet, but to be fair I haven't looked all that hard because it seems like the determined route to Power Gaming.

I do NOT use that phrase as a put-down or insult, as it's a perfectly legitimate way to play the game and maximize one's advantages, but just as an observation; I am not yet that ready to be that serious about the game. Getting the best squad in the codex to do it's job is one thing, getting every single model in a mathematically approved position is a level of detail I'm not quite ready to deal with!

Yours is an interesting diagram, Winterwind, though it suffers in practice because it requires two large sized Squads to work properly.
After quickly playing around with coloured dots in Paint, it seems that you'd need a minimum of 18 models per squad, which puts 9 on the 'inside' and 9 on the 'outside' of the formation - the bare minimum needed to make it count as 'the majority' of models being obscured from LoS (I might be wrong in the case of larger models that can be spread out to shield more than one of it's comrades, but all things being equal it seems about right).

That rules out most MEQ armies (though why Space Marines would be too upset about losing a 4+ Cover Save, we'll never know) due to small squad sizes, but Hordes would love it. Ork Boyz, Tyranid Gaunts.... even Eldar Guardians can do it on a small scale.
And I guess it's a nice thing to know if you're playing as Black Templars or a Death Company-heavy Blood Angels army for such emergencies as suddenly find yourself on the wrong end of a squad of Fire Dragons or something.

If you really wanted to do it with MEQ's and their small squads, I think a 'Chess-board' setup might work:

A_B_A_B
B_A_B_A
A_B_A_B

I've done it with 2 squads of 6 models, and I think the outcome is the same - no matter where the enemy is, they can only ever see up to half models of each Squad, which diminishes as the squads get bigger. Again, it's not very practical for the purposes of movement and the likes, but this also has the advantage of spreading the two squads out evenly - one well-placed Template won't immediately disrupt the maths by wiping out a dense concentration of one squad or the other.

[Note: Feel free to correct me if I've missed something vital - it's nearly 2am and I'm aware that I'm not all here as I type - but it looks about right from what I can tell ]

I'm sure there are more disgusting things that we could think of to do ranging from obvious to subtle (I think I'm on to something useful to know about Independent Characters in units that also have a 'Sergent' model, but I need to refresh my rules-lawyering before I know it for sure) but I think the important question we ought to ask ourselves is: do we really want to go down this road, end spend the rest of our gaming careers carefully nudging alternating-coloured Orks 1/8th of an inch to the left every turn, just to be absolutely sure it's in the best possible position?

[Lycan 01]

I'm sorry, but if somebody I played against actually took the time to specifically position his squads in intricate patters that wrapped around each other so as to grant a permanent cover save, I would:

1- Argue that since his guys have to fire through each other and be careful with their aim, my units also recieve a 4+ cover save from either unit firing at me, either granting me a decent save or halfing his firepower.

2- Lever play against him again.

[DranWork]

Well yes you do get a cover save when he shoots out of that kind of unit blob as only half of his unit can see you ext ext. Great way of stopping someone from doing this is a Vindicator.

[Cheesegear]

That's a pretty oversimplified perspective. It depends, it's hardly an automatic decision that does not or barely takes into consideration point cost.

It doesn't need to take points into consideration because you can't get Scoring Units any other way.

Notable amongst the other Chaos Terminator types? Yes.

Notable for being the only Terminator unit with a 4+ Invulnerable. Which isn't that big of a deal.

Plague Marines are far more popular for good reason, and 'comp-losing'? Seriously?

Yes. Plague Marines' popularity is exactly what loses comp. How 'bout you try winning without Plague Marines? Build a different list that the internet didn't tell you to make. Like Thousand Sons armies with Force Weapons and Wind of Chaos spam.

Unfortunately, if you like Nurgle, and want to field Nurgle Marines, you may want to make sure that you're not taking Lash-Princes and Obliterators.

Comp-Score is about not being the same as everyone else and/or not taking 'the best' unit, and only 'the best' unit.

And again, even if it's there by the time the Termies come in and destroy a vehicle of choice, chances are between the damage inflicted, and the firepower absorbed, they'll have at least paid for themselves.

But there are other things, that can do the same job, better. Like Vindicators and Defilers. Give them Daemon Possession and/or Extra Armour, watch them kill vehicles and absorb a bunch of firepower for less than Terminators cost (with or without upgrades).
And I've already mentioned Infiltrating Chosen Meltaguns. Hell, Havocs with Missile Launchers'll do the job too.

There's a good reason why PMs, Lash Princes and Oblits are core to most competitive Chaos lists

Because players are unoriginal? Out to win at any cost? Doing what the Internet tells them to do?

Here's a fairly high-ranking Chaos list in my area

Daemon Prince of Tzeentch
Undivided Prince with Warptime (painted red)
x2 Khorne Berzerkers in Rhinos
x2 Units of Thousand Sons in Rhinos
Noise Marines
x2 Vindicators with Daemonic Possession
Defiler

No Lash-Princes. No Plague Marines. No Obliterator spam. The whole point of this list was to prove that such a list without any 'Net-Listing' could be competitive. And guess what? It is.
It's about a Comp Score of 4-6 depending on the TO and friends. He loses points for have trip Vindicator/Defiler and he loses points for having Tzeentch and Khorne in the same list. He gains points for having no lash-Princes, Plague Marines or Obliterators.

Okay, sure, but the main thing is that they are almost guaranteed to pay for themselves with combimeltas

Other units can do the same job, better, for cheaper. Cover Saves absorb just as much - if not more - firepower than Invulnerables ever do. Defilers, Vindicators and Chosen. Again. Cheaper.

[Wraith]

Well yes you do get a cover save when he shoots out of that kind of unit blob as only half of his unit can see you ext ext.

Yep - page 22 of the BBB, under the heading "Firing through units or area terrain", says exactly that.

The key to victory, I suppose, is to be prepared for this and hope your opponent isn't. See also: Tau Marker-lights and Vindicare Assassins' Spy Masks.