Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Forcing people to show me (not just tell me) how stuff works, is how I ended up telling my opponent that Devourers don't work for Pinning checks. And Barbed Strangler+Devourer Warriors are nowhere near as good as people think.

Well, technically by RAW as long as a (not fearless or otherwise immune to morale) unit suffers 25% casualties from a unit that includes at least one wound causing devourer, that unit then takes a -1 penalty to its leadership at some undefined time with an undefined duration. You just kind of have to assume that the rule is badly written and means that the leadership penalty is for the pre-mentioned morale check despite the fact that it being permament or going away before the morale check is made both being valid interpretations.

Rites of Battle would also appear to bypass that penalty (unless the character that grants it is the one being hit by the devourer). As would a Book of St. Lucius, but that's more obvious.

[Cheesegear]

Well, technically by RAW as long as a (not fearless or otherwise immune to morale) unit suffers 25% casualties from a unit that includes at least one wound causing devourer, that unit then takes a -1 penalty to its leadership at some undefined time with an undefined duration.

Oh, yeah, I know the terrible wording. I meant that my opponent had caused one wound with a Devourer, and then followed that up with a Barbed Strangler and was trying to convince me that I took -1 Leadership for Pinning checks, and that's not even counting the fact that I hadn't taken 25% casualties anyway.

[Wraith]

Hmmm... if that's true, it would mean friendly units could walk through each other without a problem. So much time I wasted manouvering them around each other...

Going by what I have read, they CAN do this. Friendly units are not classed as 'difficult' or 'impassable terrain' unless you are Deep Striking and land on top of them.

The only restriction that I can find is on page 11 of the BBB, which says a model on foot cannot move through a gap that is smaller than it's base size. Fortunately, unit coherency allows a 2" gap and the vast majority of models have a 1" wide base, so while Terminators and Dreadnoughts will not be able to walk through a friendly squad an ordinary Tactical Squad (Or equivalent) should be fine.

I'm somewhat afraid people here might instead think it's a creative way of viewing the rules and deem me unsportsmanlike for protesting it in the first place...

Not at all - despite how eagerly I have examined this concept, I agree with you entirely. While legal - according to the written rules, at least - it's an absurd tactic that shouldn't work, and I wouldn't play against anyway who attempted to use it.
It's clearly a loophole that was overlooked by playtesters and, like Cheesegear said, 'creative abuse' is still just 'abuse'.

Though I agree with Cheesegear. Why would the White Scars player choose to keep his entire army in Reserve in the first place? Especially against something as shooty as Tau, this sounds like an awful idea, allowing them to shoot your units one by one...

I suspect that it was for one of two reasons.

The first is, as I said above, that the White Scars player had the idea of taking a reactive setup, which is a good thing to do.
Unfortunately he also made a very simple error and didn't take into account the setting (Dawn of War), didn't notice the minute details of his opponent's army (just how many models could be Infiltrated) and never expected that such a radical tactic would result.
The idea was sound - "Don't give the Tau anything to shoot at" is pretty good advice, usually - but that's as far as he got and didn't remember that his opponent didn't have to kill all his models in order to win the game. Kind of like claiming objectives, in a way - doesn't matter how many enemy models you obliterate over the course of the game, so long as there's 1 left on an objective at the end then you'll lose.

The second reason - and I strongly hope that this is the accurate one - is that it would be funny. To be fair, it certainly was - just not for the reasons that he was expecting.

[Mattarias, King.]

Hm, sorry guys, couldn't pick a fight at the FLGS. Spent the whole time painting to let off steam, so no battle reports yet.

As a sidenote, speaking of keeping your army in reserve, it dawns on me that that might be the best way to counter an opponent who deep strikes EVERYTHING in, like Blood Angels. Is this as good idea as I think it is?

Assuming annihilation, your opponent would be the one kinda going "Uhm.. What do I do now?" and waiting for someone to DS in and ruin them, non?

[Closet_Skeleton]

As a sidenote, speaking of keeping your army in reserve, it dawns on me that that might be the best way to counter an opponent who deep strikes EVERYTHING in, like Blood Angels. Is this as good idea as I think it is?

Well, you lose the advantage of having an entire army while his is coming in dribs and drabs.

[Wraith]

It kind-of works, but only as a way of nullifying the Reactive Deployment idea:

* You set up first and get the first turn. You place nothing on the table.
* Your opponent Sets Up. He's Deepstriking, so nothing goes on the table also.
* You 'skip' your first turn while awaiting your reserves.
* Your opponent does the same.
* In your second turn, a few of your units turn up. You can put them anywhere you like as there are no enemy units getting in the way.
* In your opponent's turn, a few of his units turn up, and he goes on to surround and outmaneuver you at every turn. You place some models, he counters with his setup. He places more models to counter yours, and then you counter his counterers.
Also very good for taking objectives - whoever gets the last turn, is the one who gets the most choice on where to put their units; wherever your opponent is, you will have one last-ditch attempt to arrive and contest something without retaliation (again, assuming ideal rolls).

Essentially, your opponent is at an advantage because every turn he can react to where you have placed your newest models (poor reserves rolls, notwithstanding of course) and probably one of the only rare occasions where your opponent WOULDN'T want to Seize the Initiative.

TL; DR - If only one army is entirely in Reserve, they will be at an advantage. If BOTH armies are in Reserve, whoever gets the Second Turn (setup being irrelevant) is at an advantage.

[Fay Graydon]

Hi guys!
Thought I'd poke my head in here and see if anyone could help me think of Ideas for my Looted No scoreing Ork army!

So Far I have 2 Big Meks to allow me to take 2 DeffDredds as my troops
One Is a Looted Carnifex (Count as DD with 4 CCDW) the other is a propper ork DD with 4 CCDW.
And I also have looted Space Marine Dreadnoughts (Count as KillaKans with CCDW and one with Rokkitz, one with Grottzooka and one with BIG SHOOTA!)

any Ideas?

EDIT:
Oh yeah forgot to say I'm also running a Space Wolf Planetstrike army.
I want it to have a Feral theme... but also have Landraiders (I have one Terminus Ultra and one Crusader... but I'm curious to if anyone has any Idea's how I can make something feral looking that "Counts as" a land raider...)

[Mattarias, King.]

Aaah. I see. Makes sense, makes sense. So.. Ideally, in this situation, I would keep only SOME of my troops in reserve, and deploy some speedy units that can take out his drips and drabs pretty quickly, yes?

I think I'm getting the hang of this tactics thing. Before, I've just been focusing on "Oh man, that model looks powerful! I'm gonna kill it!" but recently, "Oh, hey, weak things mean more kill points. Duhhh.." has been working its way into my head.

Is Assassination (Whoever kills the enemy's HQ first wins) still a viable scenario? Or has it just never existed and are my friends are lying sons of liches?

Either way, I found the perfect way of bypassing all those pesky rerolls Eldrad has. Three words: C'tan Phase Blade.

[Zorg]

Hi guys!
Thought I'd poke my head in here and see if anyone could help me think of Ideas for my Looted No scoreing Ork army!

So Far I have 2 Big Meks to allow me to take 2 DeffDredds as my troops
One Is a Looted Carnifex (Count as DD with 4 CCDW) the other is a propper ork DD with 4 CCDW.
And I also have looted Space Marine Dreadnoughts (Count as KillaKans with CCDW and one with Rokkitz, one with Grottzooka and one with BIG SHOOTA!)

any Ideas?

If you use IA8 they have an Ork Mek list. While you have to take one unit of Spanna Boyz (basically a boyz mob), you can get mobz of dreads 1-3 strong as troops, as well as a Mega-Dread HQ, and the various other options alow you to have an (almost) all vehicle mekboy themed army.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Is Assassination (Whoever kills the enemy's HQ first wins) still a viable scenario? Or has it just never existed and are my friends are lying sons of liches?

Any custom scenario is viable. Assassination ones have been published in various sources but I don't know if they appear in any current edition book.

[Fay Graydon]

If you use IA8 they have an Ork Mek list. While you have to take one unit of Spanna Boyz (basically a boyz mob), you can get mobz of dreads 1-3 strong as troops, as well as a Mega-Dread HQ, and the various other options alow you to have an (almost) all vehicle mekboy themed army.

Yeah I'm not THAT rich XD I'm not planning on a HUGE army that requires me to buy from Forge World or anything. And I'm using the "Counts As" rule for most thing.
E.G. Been toying with getting Elder Jetbikes that "Count as" Deffkoptaz"

[Zorg]

Well the only thing you would need from FW is the book, especially if you're counts-asing or kitbashing. Dreads are around 120pts each, so a list with a Mek-Dread, a Spanna Boyz mob in a Trukk, five or more Dreads, a bunch of Kans (3-5), some Deff Koptas, and a couple of looted wagons comes out at 1200-1750pts or so depending on upgrades.
It's probably one of the smallest Ork army builds around, and everythign can be made from regular plastic kits (the Mek Dread just has to be a bit bigger and fancieris all, it's still a normal walker stat-wise).

[Mattarias, King.]

If you're particularly crafty, you could build things out of cardboard or plasticard, too. Cheapest you can get, I bet. Well, for vehicles, at least. Infantry it would be wise to just buy, yeah. Though you can kustomize 'em pretty gud with dat plastik stuff.

[Fay Graydon]

Well the only thing you would need from FW is the book, especially if you're counts-asing or kitbashing. Dreads are around 120pts each, so a list with a Mek-Dread, a Spanna Boyz mob in a Trukk, five or more Dreads, a bunch of Kans (3-5), some Deff Koptas, and a couple of looted wagons comes out at 1200-1750pts or so depending on upgrades.
It's probably one of the smallest Ork army builds around, and everythign can be made from regular plastic kits (the Mek Dread just has to be a bit bigger and fancieris all, it's still a normal walker stat-wise).

No spanner boyz
I DONT want ANY scoring units =3

If you're particularly crafty, you could build things out of cardboard or plasticard, too. Cheapest you can get, I bet. Well, for vehicles, at least. Infantry it would be wise to just buy, yeah. Though you can kustomize 'em pretty gud with dat plastik stuff.

Well I'm not really using infantry. and it's going to be looted as I can't scratchbuild at all...
I have to have the bitz from ready made kits

[Zorg]

How big is this army to be then? Aside from 'looted' and no-scoring are there any other parameters you're working under for? Do you want list suggestion or advice on what units can count as?

If you're discounting the list designed to represent a Mekboy's looted army we're going to need more to go on ;)

[Arcanoi]

If you're discounting the list designed to represent a Mekboy's looted army we're going to need more to go on ;)

He can't really go with an Apoc List can he? More than 90% of the time, his list will be illegal, as well as broken!

As for what I'd recommend, I'd go with a couple of Battlewagons, with Deathrollas, carrying the Big Meks and some Nob cargo.

[Elm11]

Hey Everyone, I'm pretty much stuck so i'm coming here for advice on collecting a new 40k Army.

I've been playing for a little while, but in short, i started with orks, who got boring fairly quickly, so i moved on to the Imperial guard. I've had a sizeable army for a few years, but now my brother, who collects Nids, wants to buy them off me. Since i was considering starting up a new army, i'm now looking at something else. I'm currently stuck between buying a force of tau or Space Wolves. I'd like tau because of they're long ranged abilities, however they're very similar to the guard in terms of tactics, and they're failry outdated. I've been looking at Space Wolves as i'd like to try something new in terms of tactics, and as they're more elite/melee orientated than any other force i've used, they'd be an interesting new style. The main problem with collecting them is that i'm told they have little variation and can get boring pretty quickly.

if i were to buy either, i'd get the battleforce then broadsides and a hammerhead for tau, as well as extra firewarriors. If it were the spacewolves, i'd probably look into getting dreadnaugts, terminators, or predator tanks, but i don't know much about them so i'm open for advice.

Sorry about the wall of text, and thanks.

[One Step Two]

Hey Everyone, I'm pretty much stuck so i'm coming here for advice on collecting a new 40k Army....

Stuff about Tau vs Space Wolves

Here's a small idea if you're interested, I mentioned this to a friend who was torn between Blood Angels and Space Wolves, that ultimately a Marine is a Marine is a Marine. They may act the same, but the Codecies help add a little spice, and how the army is played. So what one could do to keep a little variation in your army, is that you make and paint a bunch of marines, use your own Army colours, but grab a copy of Space Marines, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and for the hell of it, Black Templars and Dark Angels.

What you now have is a unique set of marines and with some creative modelling work, swap between codecies as you get a little bored with tactics giving you more freedom in how you play the army, and with the army changing rules of adding certain heroes (Logan Grimmar, Dante, Lysander, etc) you get even more variations to play with using your marines.

But that's a little off the topic.

Space wolves do have a cool dynamic, I know one local player who changes up what they use often because there are so many different options to try, but you will notice some units coming back again and again, because they are too good to not take (longfangs especially). With Dreadnaughts and Predators, they from all problems tanks have, if there isnt enough, they will go pop very quickly. As for terminators, they're always hard nuts to crack, but people will panic and shoot them hard and fast to get rid of them.

As for the Tau, to be honest I cant give more input, I've seen the static firing line and the fish o' fury. The static line is self explanitory, draw your line in the sand and let them get cut down as they advance. The Fish, is everything mounted in devilfish, with the readiness to run at the first sign of trouble, re-deploy and keep shooting. There may be other tactics, but those work damned well. The units themselves, Firewarriors are a fantastic, 30" range S5 rifles make them able to take down even marines with ease, support in the form of marker lights make everythign better, Hammerheads and Broadsides just sweeten the deal. For the greater good indeed. Just don't let them get caught in melee, having all the close combat capabilities of a wet noodle can suck.

Hope it helps.

[i see u]

Hey Guys

I was reading a Chaos Space Marine codex and there Thousand Sons Marines have the Mark of Tzeentch giving them a 4+ invulnerable save than they have an option that says "One Model may been given a personal icon" does that mean that I can get them a 3+ invulnerable?

[Closet_Skeleton]

Hey Guys

I was reading a Chaos Space Marine codex and there Thousand Sons Marines have the Mark of Tzeentch giving them a 4+ invulnerable save than they have an option that says "One Model may been given a personal icon" does that mean that I can get them a 3+ invulnerable?

No. A Personal Icon is its own specific piece of wargear (basically a chaos teleport homer), not the ability to take any icons from the book.

[Cheesegear]

Is Assassination (Whoever kills the enemy's HQ first wins) still a viable scenario? Or has it just never existed and are my friends are lying sons of liches?

Assassination did exist. But, characters were less powerful back then...

The newest version of Assassination is called Clash of Heroes, and it's found in the Battle Missions book and it's ideally played with Special Characters taking your HQ slots, not that you have to play it that way.

The Force Organisation Chart is changed. I think there's 1 HS slot and 4 Elites, only 1+ Troops IIRC, and no Reserves allowed (so long Drop Pods, and no, I'm not sure how Daemons play). Basically, have everything awesome on the table. Fight.

The big rule, is that your character can only be killed by the opposing character. If it's not, your character stands back up with one wound.

This is broken in the way that if you have an IC in a unit and you get shot at, you can take all hits to the character, and he'll still stand back up with one wound leaving the rest of the entire squad unharmed.

Or not.

[Closet_Skeleton]

This is broken in the way that if you have an IC in a unit and you get shot at, you can take all hits to the character, and he'll still stand back up with one wound leaving the rest of the entire squad unharmed.

Really? Don't you have to assign one wound to every model before assigning multiple wounds to any model? Independent characters are only special in melee, when you shoot at them they're the same as upgraded models. If that was true you'd be able to take every single wound on your grenade launcher carrying guy normally.

[Cheesegear]

Really? Don't you have to assign one wound to every model before assigning multiple wounds to any model? Independent characters are only special in melee, when you shoot at them they're the same as upgraded models. If that was true you'd be able to take every single wound on your grenade launcher carrying guy normally.

Yes. This is 100% correct. I'm a fool.

[lord_khaine]

Yes. This is 100% correct. I'm a fool.

So, is this something that will come up in the title of the next thread ?

[† Dran †]

Cheesgear, Lord of fools.

[Shas aia Toriia]

Regardless, that sounds like an awesome way to play. Elites are my favourite category, so why not take 4 of them?

[Closet_Skeleton]

Regardless, that sounds like an awesome way to play. Elites are my favourite category, so why not take 4 of them?

Maybe because you're playing Witch Hunters and your elites kind of suck despite sounding awesome in your head?

[Zorg]

no Reserves allowed (so long Drop Pods, and no, I'm not sure how Daemons play).

Units with the Deep Strike special rule may always be placed in reserve, even if the mission does not normally allow it (pg 95, first paragraph).

[Trixie]

So... As the discussion sort-of died, can someone inform me what of the three below Codices would be compatible with what Chapters?

Say, C:Black Templars: Besides BT, it would have to be zealous Chapter without Librarians (ok, this is not a requirement, they could left theirs at home) - are there any potential ones with enough anger? What Chapters would never fit into potential usage of C:BT?

Ditto for Space Wolves and Blood Angels. What Chapters would fit? What definitely not? Could any of these above three "fit" (as in, be used without protests in a non-their Codex) the other two? Would any other, unmentioned SM Codex be a good substitute of above three?

I'm looking for both A) Codex different from the main SM one, to avoid "cookie-cutterness", and B) which Chapters could be used with them with reasonable accuracy. Major points if the Chapter could pass for all of the above, so that one SM army could be used in relatively fluffy way with all of them.

Likewise, would a Chapter mixing some of the iconography be ok? Again, for example, skins (not necessarily brown) found in SW box mixed with BT crosses and chains on units - how many nerd-rage would that produce? After all, crosses, skins, ans jewelry seems to be a common motive in concept art - but is that look okay in the game?

And before someone protests, well, they're all close-combat armies with Furious Charge/Counter Attack, so that request shouldn't be too unreasonable, right?

[hamishspence]

Hmm.

Black templars- given that by default their Marine units are supposed to have Neophytes in, don't fit very well with the Blood Angels or Space Wolves rules.

Space wolves models, Black Templars rules, (no Neophytes taken) could work quite well.

Or maybe Space wolves models, Blood Angels rules- with the Death Company being The Wolfen.