Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.

[crazedloon]

You only need the Space wolf codex (all the SM lists have been made self sufficient not needing a "main" codex)

[Lycan 01]

Just Space Wolves.

[ShadowFighter15]

Quick question for those of you who have bought the Space Marine Battleforce. Are the models that are included the same as the models that are sold seperately or are they like the Assault on Black Reach models which feature static Space Marine models?

Yeah, like Lycan said its the regular models. It's basically the contents of the ten-man tactical box, the five-man tactical box, the five-man assault box, the five-man scout box and the Rhino all in the one box (and a lot cheaper than buying all that individually).

[Razaele]

Awesome! I guess I'll be buying myself at least 2 of those. When I manage to scrounge up the cash for it, that is.

[Cheesegear]

Awesome! I guess I'll be buying myself at least 2 of those. When I manage to scrounge up the cash for it, that is.

Actually, if you're going to be buying both, I actually suggest getting AoBR and a Battleforce instead, rather than 2 Battleforces. It actually gives you a really good start to an army. All's you really need is some new Dreadnought arms and you're sweet to go. Maybe an Assault Cannon/CML for the Terminators if you've got one?

However, I would never recommend getting AoBR by itself. Of course.

[Mattarias, King.]

You passed up the first Deathwatch adventure (yes, that's what it is) for the Dark Sun module? The =][= disapproves. I am disappoint.

Yyeaahh.. It was a tough choice, but a) My group probably wouldn't've played it, and b) It's for a viking campaign. With dinosaurs. >>; The Emperor probably likes awesome stuff. I'm sure he understands.

[evisiron]

Well, it's the final week before the big QCOBN doubles tournament and things are heating up with us gaming a final chance to practice before the weekend.

Super brief battle reports:

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Our list:

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Orks and chaos 1000+1000 for 2000pt army.
Orks fielding:
2x 30 strong mobs of slugga boys
10 lootas
Skorcha buggy
Warboss on warbike
3x Biker nobs (cyborks, 1 klaw, 1 mad dok etc)

Chaos:
2 squads of 7 plaguemarines with meltas/champions in rhinos
2x 2 Obliterators
Daemon prince (with lash)

First game was against Imperial Guard and Tzeentch heavy daemons. Objective based mission with standard table edge deployment. We slaughtered them pretty effectively. The biker nobs flew perfectly around the flank to rip up the IG tanks, big mobs smashed through troops with charges set up with the lash, and we nearly tabled them by turn 4.

The best moment in the game though was the Lootas getting hit with the Changling's redirect fire power, and aiming at the friendly Daemon prince. Some superb rolling saw the Prince killed, and we have laughed about how easy it would be to persuade the Orks to change target to the biggest thing on the table!

---

Second game was against Blood Angels and IG.
By the gods, what were they thinking when they wrote that codex?!
Dawn of war deployment, once again chasing objectives. We put down 60 Orks and the Daemon Prince. They put down Death Company (Okay, turns out they are troops. Wow.) and their dedicated land raider (WHAT?!) with their leader for rerolls to hit and wound.

Then they seized the initiative.

Army walks on, Land raider goes for the first turn change and mulches the first mob of Orks. I had never seen Orks die that fast... until the Fleeting Death Company Dread with a blood talon killed 17 Orks in one round.
Game ended as a technical Draw, but we agreed that it was going to be a slight loss or a crappy draw if we had more time.

Tl;dr: Beat IG + Daemons, got a beating from IG+Blood Angels.

So, Blood angels have Fleet, potentially infinite attack WS6 S6 lightning claw dreadnoughts for a good bit less than 150 points? Ouch.

They have assault troops with Priest buffs in Fast Rhinos. Ouch again.

Land raiders and Death company are troop choices/dedicated transports. It hurts!

So, lacking the codex, what are peoples observations? They seemed low in numbers, but didn't pay through the nose as badly as Space Wolves. Assault is obviously their great strength, but where does their balancing weakness lie? What other nastiness can we expect in the tournament?

[Gauntlet]

The main weakness to Blood Angels Death Company/Dreads is the points. Death Company take up a troops slot and are 20 each, before you pay for your Jump Packs or your pretty power weaponry. Dreadnoughts *require* you to have spent a minimum of 100 points on Death company, and that means you've used up 2 troops choices on models which can't cap objectives. In that situation, the Guard can hold the objectives for you, but in general it's a problem. Blood Talons are excellent, but DC dreads are the BA equivalent of Thunderfire Cannons- if they get to work, your opponent is screwed- so it's going to get shot to hell on turn 1.

[Wraith]

Y'know for a minute the other day, I caught myself musing on whether or not GW were going to release another Space Marine Chapter-specific Codex for the Iron Hands Chapter.

I mean, Codex Space Marines has a special character for every one of the Founding 9 except those that have their own Codex... and Iron Hands. Maybe - just maybe - that isn't a coincidence. And we know how much GW just loves selling Space Marine stuff, so perhaps 3 more loyalist Codices (The Inquisition, Dark Angels and Black Templars re-writes aside) might not be enough....

Maybe it's only wishful thinking, but I'd love to play an army of those guys. A Master of the Forge as a Special Character couldn't help but be amusing, let alone the potential outcomes of the fact that Iron Hands love Dreadnoughts and Razorbacks, two of my favourite SM units.

[Lycan 01]

Nice write-up, Evisiron. I especially liked that you all had a laugh at the Orks killing their allies' Big Bad. Its good when all the players can find humor in something that would piss most people off.

[Cheesegear]

Y'know for a minute the other day, I caught myself musing on whether or not GW were going to release another Space Marine Chapter-specific Codex for the Iron Hands Chapter.

Probably not.
I was told not too long ago, that, at the time of writing the Codex, the general consensus up at GW HQ, was 'Nobody likes Iron Hands'. People even like Crimson Fists more than Iron Hands. Mostly because Crimson Fists were the default 3rd Ed. army as opposed to Ultramarines.

The Master of the Forge is primarily a courtesy nod to Iron Hands' players.

If you really like Razorbacks and Dreadnoughts, well, Blood Angels.

[Lycan 01]

For what its worth, I like Crimson Fists, and would make them my army if I played Space Marines. Why, do people not like them very much?

[Cheesegear]

For what its worth, I like Crimson Fists, and would make them my army if I played Space Marines. Why, do people not like them very much?

What? People love Crimson Fists. People don't like Iron Hands. I think the point I was trying to make was that a 2nd Founding Chapter is more popular than a 1st Founding one...

lol...Crimson Fists and Black Templars, the two single-most popular 2nd Founding Chapters. Both derived from the Imperial Fists. Damn straight.

[Wraith]

I don't think people particularly dislike the Iron hands, least of all because so little is known about them it's hard to give any specific reason as to why they'd be 'bad'. It just seems odd in comparison that the Crimson Fists have special characters and a fairly large amount of fluff even though they weren't one of the Founding Legions, when a perfectly good example of the latter is sat around begging for something to be done with them.

On a similar vein of thought, some people might be disappointed that one otherwise unremarkable Chapter would get special stuff when others won't - "What's so special about the Crimson Fists, why not do something radical and give us the Blood Ravens and REALLY impress us?" sort of mentality. At least a Founing Legion is in some way 'justified' by virtue of being an early - and therefore supposedly 'important' - Chapter.
Although Cheesegear makes a good point, I tend to think that the Crimson Fists in the modern Codex mostly out of habit, and so as to keep selling Pedro Kantor models rather than any particular favouritism - hence why I wondered if bigger things were planned for another SM Codex at some distant point.

Just thought it was strange that 8 of the Founding Legions and 1 Second Founding Chapter are specifically allowed in the various rulebooks, and the last Legion is almost entirely absent. I don't think that they're as unpopular as Cheesegear describe - GW still sells the Iron hands tactical Squad from it's site, after all.

Perhaps it's just disinterest from GW, who despite their track record actually don't want another Space Marine Codex released. Heck, maybe they're going to write them out in the next Update, and are saving themselves the effort of making stuff for an army that soon won't exist. I'd be a little sad if they did do that, but weirder things have happened.

[Cheesegear]

I don't think people particularly dislike the Iron hands, least of all because so little is known about them it's hard to give any specific reason as to why they'd be 'bad'.

So little is known about them it's hard to give any specific reason as to why they'd be 'good'. They haven't done anything since their Primarch died. Even in 3rd Ed. they weren't particularly mentioned a lot. Basically, their schtick was 'they make stuff'. So do Salamanders. Except Salamanders like fire.
Everyone likes fire.

Iron Hands are also the most a*hole Loyalist Chapter. Salamanders can do everything Iron Hands can do, except Salamanders actually want to help people.

At least a Founing Legion is in some way 'justified' by virtue of being an early - and therefore supposedly 'important' - Chapter.

Like I said, they haven't done anything. Okay, they like Dreadnoughts. That's about it. Maybe you could include a Yarrick-like character that doesn't die due to Bionics? Other than that? I'm kind of lost.

Although Cheesegear makes a good point, I tend to think that the Crimson Fists in the modern Codex mostly out of habit, and so as to keep selling Pedro Kantor models rather than any particular favouritism

Nope. Crimson Fists are actual Favourites.

I don't think that they're as unpopular as Cheesegear describe - GW still sells the Iron hands tactical Squad from it's site, after all.

Honestly, GW sells lots of things from their website. It could also be due to the fact that Iron Hands are on a run-down, but, it doesn't appear that way because there's just so much stock left.

Perhaps it's just disinterest from GW, who despite their track record actually don't want another Space Marine Codex released.

Sadly, it is true. Nobody wants Iron Hands. Even with the new Master of the Forge, I've still only ever seen one Iron Hands army since 5th. Nobody even uses the colours. There isn't even 'Iron Hands 2nd Company' running around with standard Captains and Tacticals.

I'm in agreement though, they should do something for Iron Hands. But, I'm not particularly surprised that they haven't. Nor do I expect - or even hope/care - that they will.

[Ninja Chocobo]

Why the hell do we need another Space Marine codex anyway? They make up five and a half out of sixteen codices available. That's more than a third. The Imperium makes up half of the sodding armies available. GW is making a Space Marine codex for every non-Space Marine codex they make, and that is not enough for you somehow?

[crazedloon]

Why the hell do we need another Space Marine codex anyway? They make up five and a half out of sixteen codices available. That's more than a third. The Imperium makes up half of the sodding armies available. GW is making a Space Marine codex for every non-Space Marine codex they make, and that is not enough for you somehow?

And they are so busy updating all there sodding SM codexes that they leave other codex's which need update (such as the necron, hunters (witch and deamon) books, DE to list a few)

[Cheesegear]

GW is making a Space Marine codex for every non-Space Marine codex they make, and that is not enough for you somehow?

Not if they leave out the one Chapter you care about.
I didn't give two s*s when the Blood Angels Codex came out. But, if they were to re-release a proper Salamanders Codex though, I'd be all over it. It doesn't matter how many Space Marines Codecies there are, all's that matters is if they're the ones that people want.

"People want Space Marines." end quote.

[Ninja Chocobo]

DE

Y'know a lot of the DE players I've heard from don't think their codex needs an update. A rewrite, perhaps, to bring it in to line with 5e layouts, but they usually think their rules are fine; and for good reason.
They're usually just clamouring for new models.

e: Codices available in 2020: Blood Angels, Black Templars, Dark Angels, Space Marines, Space Wolves, Crimson Fists, Grey Knights, Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, Salamanders, White Scars, Iron Hands, Deathwatch, Blood Ravens, Raven Guard, Mantis Warriors, Space Sharks, Imperial Guard, Sisters of Battle, Chaos, Xenos.

[Cheesegear]

Y'know a lot of the DE players I've heard from don't think their codex needs an update [...] They're usually just clamouring for new models.

Seconded. More words.

[crazedloon]

Y'know a lot of the DE players I've heard from don't think their codex needs an update. A rewrite, perhaps, to bring it in to line with 5e layouts, but they usually think their rules are fine; and for good reason.
They're usually just clamouring for new models.

Oh I agree (though I would like to see some rules for useful mandrakes and Scourges) But new models would be fantastic.

[Razaele]

Actually, if you're going to be buying both, I actually suggest getting AoBR and a Battleforce instead, rather than 2 Battleforces. It actually gives you a really good start to an army. All's you really need is some new Dreadnought arms and you're sweet to go. Maybe an Assault Cannon/CML for the Terminators if you've got one?

However, I would never recommend getting AoBR by itself. Of course.

Actually, I do intend on purchasing AoBR first since it does include templates, scatter die, and enough(almost) stuff for me to practice playing. Plus I intend on using the AoBR models to practice my painting skills on before I move on the good stuff. I might get a couple of Battleforces in the future though, since I'm going to need a lot of Tactical Squads so that I can (hopefully) convert them into Sternguard Veterans.

On a side note, I want to ask about the Land Raider Crusader and the Land Raider Redeemer. I've actually seen the Land Raider Crusader in action, and to be honest, I wasn't that impressed with the level of firepower that it could bring to bear. Maybe it was because it was Space Marines versus Space Marines, but 6 Twin-Linked Bolters and a Twin-Linked Assault Cannon didn't seem to do as much damage as I'd imagined it would. Flamers on the other hand, seem AWESOME. Especially if the flamer is S6 AP3.

Now if it just came down to just firepower, I would probably pick the Redeemer over the Crusader any day of the week. But the thing is, I don't plan on using my Land Raider as a ridiculously hard to kill tank, I also want to make full use of the fact that it's an Assault Vehicle. Since the Redeemer's transport capacity is just 12 models, I wanted to ask everyone's opinion. Will 5 Terminators (Assault or otherwise) and an HQ unit be worth the point cost, or should I just take some other unit and take the Redeemer as a Heavy Support choice? Or should I just go with the Crusader?

[Cheesegear]

Actually, I do intend on purchasing AoBR first since it does include templates, scatter die, and enough (almost) stuff for me to practice playing. Plus I intend on using the AoBR models to practice my painting skills on before I move on the good stuff.

What I do like the AoBR Marines is that they come with Tactical Markings, which is pretty sweet. Other than that, well, yeah...

I might get a couple of Battleforces in the future though, since I'm going to need a lot of Tactical Squads so that I can (hopefully) convert them into Sternguard Veterans.

A cheaper alternative might be starting with the Dark Angels Veterans box. If you really are getting two Battleforces at some point, you should have more than enough pieces to get them to not look like Dark Angels.

I don't plan on using my Land Raider as a ridiculously hard to kill tank, I also want to make full use of the fact that it's an Assault Vehicle. Since the Redeemer's transport capacity is just 12 models, I wanted to ask everyone's opinion. Will 5 Terminators (Assault or otherwise) and an HQ unit be worth the point cost, or should I just take some other unit and take the Redeemer as a Heavy Support choice? Or should I just go with the Crusader?

Depends how many points you're playing. Over 1500? Definitely. Hammernators never go wrong. If you're using Tactical Terminators, either Deep Strike them or walk them. They don't need the 'Raider.

The problem with the Redeemer is that it's much better on paper. The reality is that if you really are using it as a 'proper' Transport/Assault Vehicle, rather than a great, stomping, tank; You'll rarely fire the Flamestorm Cannons before your Terminators get into Assault.

The Flamestorms are S6. So, not Defensive. So, if you're moving more than 6" (on a Transport tank, always), you'll only ever get to fire one at a time (PoTM) and that's only if you're in Template range and you haven't unloaded your Terminators right in front of the barrel of the Template (I've seen it done).

You're right, the Crusader is extremely underwhelming against Marines. But, it's Hurricanes are Defensive, so, you'll be firing it a lot more. Really, you shouldn't really be worried about it if all you want is a Transport. Chaos Marines get the terrible 'Raiders, and, even for Chaos Boys, despite how terrible their 'Raiders are, if it can get Terminators into Assault, then it's done it's job.

[Zorg]

Everyone likes fire.

Frankenstein's monster doesn't


Crimson Fists were also the 'poster boys' of 1st ed, so that's a large amount of their base popularity there too.

[Razaele]

A cheaper alternative might be starting with the Dark Angels Veterans box. If you really are getting two Battleforces at some point, you should have more than enough pieces to get them to not look like Dark Angels.

I'm sorry if I'm missing something obvious, but I don't think I quite understand. Wouldn't it be easier for me to just convert the Tactical Squads into Sternguard Veterans? I took a look at the Dark Angels Veterans and I don't really see how they could be easier to convert into Sternguard Veterans.

Depends how many points you're playing. Over 1500? Definitely. Hammernators never go wrong. If you're using Tactical Terminators, either Deep Strike them or walk them. They don't need the 'Raider.

The problem with the Redeemer is that it's much better on paper. The reality is that if you really are using it as a 'proper' Transport/Assault Vehicle, rather than a great, stomping, tank; You'll rarely fire the Flamestorm Cannons before your Terminators get into Assault.

The Flamestorms are S6. So, not Defensive. So, if you're moving more than 6" (on a Transport tank, always), you'll only ever get to fire one at a time (PoTM) and that's only if you're in Template range and you haven't unloaded your Terminators right in front of the barrel of the Template (I've seen it done).

You're right, the Crusader is extremely underwhelming against Marines. But, it's Hurricanes are Defensive, so, you'll be firing it a lot more. Really, you shouldn't really be worried about it if all you want is a Transport. Chaos Marines get the terrible 'Raiders, and, even for Chaos Boys, despite how terrible their 'Raiders are, if it can get Terminators into Assault, then it's done it's job.

Hmm. I hadn't really thought about that. But the thing is, I want my Land Raider to be able to do some damage after it delivers its payload of Hammernators. I mean, 240-250 points is a pretty expensive price to pay just so I can get my Hammernators up close. And please correct me if I'm wrong, but won't it usually just take my Land Raider around 1 or 2 turns to get to my desired target? So alright, maybe I won't be able to fire my Flamstorm Cannons on the turn that it delivers the Hammernators. Won't it be able to do more damage in the 3-4 turns that it has left than the Redeemer which has been firing since turn 1?

But then again, there's the issue of capacity. The Crusader can house an extra 2 Hammernators, which is pretty good IMHO. Sure 6 Assault Terminators is pretty deadly, but 8 is even better. Ugh. I'm confused now.

[Gruffard]

Do not forget the range. Flamers only shoot 8 and you can only shoot them all if you are not moving a lot. Yea the Flamers are great on Marines and Necron and the like, but for lighter armies like my Tau, or Say Eldar that also move a bit. If I have the choice I won't let you take full advantage of those flamers.

But the longer range and the fact that they are defensive make Twin-Linked Bolters and a Twin-Linked Assault Cannons a nicer option on us.

To be truthful. Down the road you probably want one of each depending on who you fight and what point range. Or take into account what your local play group is like. IF its a lot of MEqs then you probably want the flamer tank/transport. Else the Crusader is a more balanced choice in my opinion.

[crazedloon]

I will also add my vote for the redeemer because of it being scary for more armies thanks to the AP 3 template which can make it a higher priority model than the low AP bolters of the crusader. Its weapons also have the advantage of ignoring cover which is a rather big part of the game in this edition.

I will note however a lot of the suggestions given thus far have forgotten to take into account the Machine spirit which IMHO makes the redeemer a lot better thanks to the ability to spread flames on 2 units on ether side of the tank while the contents kill whatever is in front of the tank. Also it allows any weapon including the flame cannons to always be fired (no matter the speed) and while moving at full speed and out of flame range still fire the assault cannon or multimelta (if you have one and need the higher AP)

IMHO on the turn that the redeemer arrives and drops a single flame template (provided it needed to move more than 6 to deliver its men) it will balance out the number of deaths that the 1-2 turns of bolter fire (around 6-12 shots) has had over it due to a few factors.

-Ignores cover
-high AP
-can instant kill T3 (DE, Eldar, Guard, Sisters, Tau, Inquisitors)

However the best suggestion I could give is if you can acquire both turrets (flamestorm and hurricane) just use magnets to attach them and play with both until you know which you prefer

[Cheesegear]

I will also add my vote for the redeemer because of it being scary for more armies thanks to the AP 3 template which can make it a higher priority model

Having a higher priority means it only gets shot at even more. Maybe it wont even get to Transport. 'Land Raiders dead in first turn' is a move most armies learn at some stage in their life. I know I frequently do it, even without Drop Podding Sternguard.

I will note however a lot of the suggestions given thus far have forgotten to take into account the Machine spirit which IMHO makes the redeemer a lot better thanks to the ability to spread flames on 2 units on ether side of the tank while the contents kill whatever is in front of the tank.

I didn't forget it. I mentioned that if you're actually using a Land Raider as a Transport instead of a 'Heavy Tank', you'll be moving 12" a turn, allowing you to shoot one Flamestorm. If you manage to get within 8" of your opponent and he's still letting your 'Raider live even after it's dropped Terminators, he's doing something wrong.

Also, due to being on the side of the tank, and with terrible range, Flamestorms can't soften the target first. Cover doesn't even matter anyway because your Terminators have Frag Grenades.

[crazedloon]

Having a higher priority means it only gets shot at even more. Maybe it wont even get to Transport. 'Land Raiders dead in first turn' is a move most armies learn at some stage in their life. I know I frequently do it, even without Drop Podding Sternguard.

which may be bad because you have "stranded" The unit with the best armor in your game and thus "doomed" it to walk however in all truth that is not too much of a problem as you yourself have stated Terminators can do that just fine (particularly assault Ts who do not care that they can't shoot when the run) The important thing is that that turn of heavy fire on your best armored vehicle means less shots on your softer rhinos, vindicator, and actual troops. Its why IMO fire magnets are good, I would pay 250 for a turn reprieve from fire on my whole (or majority of) army.

But this is just me and my opinion so do try it out before taking my advice.

I didn't forget it. I mentioned that if you're actually using a Land Raider as a Transport instead of a 'Heavy Tank', you'll be moving 12" a turn, allowing you to shoot one Flamestorm. If you manage to get within 8" of your opponent and he's still letting your 'Raider live even after it's dropped Terminators, he's doing something wrong.

At that speed (12 inches) however both vehicles will be firing the same weapon with their machine spirit (the assault cannon) and nothing else fires so the other weapons do not matter until you are within assault range. The difference on the turn it drops the troops if it moved 12 inches the "main" guns of the Redeemer are better than the bolters at that range (within 8 inches because the contents have to be within 6" to assualt)

Again my opinion and from what I have seen of the two options.

Also, due to being on the side of the tank, and with terrible range, Flamestorms can't soften the target first. Cover doesn't even matter anyway because your Terminators have Frag Grenades.

The effect of cover is relevant when firing the weapon not assaulting (both tanks are the same as far as things assaulting out of them)

also if you wish to use the cannon to fire at what you assault than you simply must pivot and exit the tank from the side so that the cannon is facing forward.

[lord_khaine]

Having a higher priority means it only gets shot at even more. Maybe it wont even get to Transport. 'Land Raiders dead in first turn' is a move most armies learn at some stage in their life. I know I frequently do it, even without Drop Podding Sternguard.

Yeah, personaly im going to blast any visible landraider with every bright lance i got.