New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 3 of 50 FirstFirst 1234567891011121328 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 90 of 1482
  1. - Top - End - #61
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Jan 2008

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.

    Quote Originally Posted by crazedloon View Post
    The important thing is that that turn of heavy fire on your best armored vehicle means less shots on your softer rhinos, vindicator, and actual troops.
    I don't know about you, but I'm perfectly happy for my opponent to use anti-tank weapons on my Infantry.

    At that speed (12 inches) however both vehicles will be firing the same weapon with their machine spirit (the assault cannon) and nothing else fires so the other weapons do not matter until you are within assault range.
    And in that case it's the Transport Capacity that matters. And the Crusader wins there.

    also if you wish to use the cannon to fire at what you assault than you simply must pivot and exit the tank from the side so that the cannon is facing forward.
    And have your Troops exit from the side and stand in front of the cannon. I've seen it done.

    And in that case, what's the point in having two cannons? Flamers fail pretty hard at shooting straight ahead. If you're turning to fire every time, what's the point of having both cannons if you can just pivot 170 degrees (an LR is AV14 all 'round so it doesn't matter) and fire one anyway?

    The other thing that people aren't realising, is that Flamestorms kill things. Yes. Congrats. You've seen the AP3 Template weapon. Great. You've killed the whole unit, they've taken a Morale check and run (or Marines used Combat Tactics and laughed at your Terminators), or your opponent is clever and removes his models from the front of the unit taking you out of Assault range.

    The Crusader softens targets for you to Assault. The Redeemer bakes units and lets them run away so you can't Assault leaving your Terminators in the cold.
    Spoiler: My Mum Says I'm Cool
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Anuan View Post
    Cheesegear; Lovable Thesaurus ItP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycan 01 View Post
    Cheesegear, have I told you yet that you're awesome?
    Quote Originally Posted by MeatShield#236 View Post
    ALL HAIL LORD CHEESEGEAR! Cheese for the cheesegear!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shas'aia Toriia View Post
    Cheesegear is awesome

  2. - Top - End - #62
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    crazedloon's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    I don't know about you, but I'm perfectly happy for my opponent to use anti-tank weapons on my Infantry.
    It is less about the dedicated anti tank weapons firing and more about the single heavy in a unit having to fire at the tank wasting the rest of the units weapons. Obviously this is the last weapons used by your opponent but for every unit which does not fire its main weapons the better (but than again most LR are all about the same as fire magnets)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    And in that case it's the Transport Capacity that matters. And the Crusader wins there.
    true enough but than how often do you run terminators at 8 men strong? It seems like a very heavy point sink to me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    And have your Troops exit from the side and stand in front of the cannon. I've seen it done.
    This is due to the way you put the LR together

    with a redeemer, in my opinion, you should mount the cannons to the rear this allows you to conga line anyone getting out without blocking fireing arc to the side. You only loos a little (I belive its about an inch max) of range to the front but the redeemer was already bad at forward firing and should focus on side firing (at 2 units when it can)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    And in that case, what's the point in having two cannons? Flamers fail pretty hard at shooting straight ahead. If you're turning to fire every time, what's the point of having both cannons if you can just pivot 170 degrees (an LR is AV14 all 'round so it doesn't matter) and fire one anyway?
    I will actually 100% agree with you here as the potential waste and thus the reason I love the new baal with its 1 cannon.

    However after dropping off its cargo the hope would be that you can surround your land raider with enemy on both sides since you can fire both directions (thanks to the machine spirit) however not always the case in which case the other cannon is indeed wasted. But IMHO 1 cannon shot is better than 12 bolter shots due to higher AP, ignores cover and higher str

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    The other thing that people aren't realising, is that Flamestorms kill things. Yes. Congrats. You've seen the AP3 Template weapon. Great. You've killed the whole unit, they've taken a Morale check and run (or Marines used Combat Tactics and laughed at your Terminators), or your opponent is clever and removes his models from the front of the unit taking you out of Assault range.

    The Crusader softens targets for you to Assault. The Redeemer bakes units and lets them run away so you can't Assault leaving your Terminators in the cold.
    so what you are saying here is that the one is ineffective at anything but transport and the other is too good at being something besides an expensive transport?

    If you manage to kill things with the bolters you will run into the same problems you do with the flamers i.e. taking models away to stop the assault or breaking so again not really "softening"

    also unless your opponent is playing a very spread out army or a very model poor army more often then not 2 units will be close to eachother and the redeemer can cook one (like you say and break em or kill em) and the other can be stomped by the contents. If you are commiting the raider and its contents to kill 1 unit than ether the 1 unit can take the pain of the flamer or you would have been better served deepstriking or using another unit to deal with the target.
    Check out my horrible homebrews

  3. - Top - End - #63
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Jan 2008

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.

    Quote Originally Posted by crazedloon View Post
    true enough but than how often do you run terminators at 8 men strong?
    7 Terminators and Lysander/Chaplain?
    15 Blood Claws and Wolf Guard? (Yes. It totally is the same thing.)

    ...Often enough that I feel the need to point it out.

    I will actually 100% agree with you here as the potential waste and thus the reason I love the new baal with its 1 cannon.
    See the part that I emphasised? You said it.

    However after dropping off its cargo the hope would be that you can surround your land raider with enemy on both sides since you can fire both directions (thanks to the machine spirit) however this is never the case in which case the other cannon is indeed wasted.
    Fixed it for you. I have never had my Land Raider surrounded in my life. Any of them.

    so what you are saying here is that the one is ineffective at anything but transport and the other is too good at being something besides an expensive transport?
    I know you just tried to Straw Man me, but, yes. Like Valkyries and Vendettas.

    If you manage to kill things with the bolters you will run into the same problems you do with the flamers i.e. taking models away to stop the assault or breaking so again not really "softening"
    But, as people keep pointing out, Bolters don't kill things. Maybe a few here and there, but, not too many.

    also unless your opponent is playing a very spread out army
    If they're deploying second, or, notice that you've got a Vindicator or two (yes, you did mention Vindicators as your Land Raider was taking heat off of them), they will spread out. Even Orks and Hormagaunts will do it.

    If you are commiting the raider and its contents to kill 1 unit than ether the 1 unit can take the pain of the flamer or you would have been better served deepstriking or using another unit to deal with the target.
    And that's why nobody uses Land Raiders.
    Except Black Templars and cheesed Blood Angels armies.

    The only reason people use Land Raiders is to transport Hammernators, and then throw those as the biggest unit they can find. Flamestorms will most likely be useless. As will Boltguns. But, the Crusader has a larger Transport Capacity. Which is what you want in a Transport.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2010-06-21 at 07:30 PM.
    Spoiler: My Mum Says I'm Cool
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Anuan View Post
    Cheesegear; Lovable Thesaurus ItP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycan 01 View Post
    Cheesegear, have I told you yet that you're awesome?
    Quote Originally Posted by MeatShield#236 View Post
    ALL HAIL LORD CHEESEGEAR! Cheese for the cheesegear!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shas'aia Toriia View Post
    Cheesegear is awesome

  4. - Top - End - #64
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    crazedloon's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    But, as people keep pointing out, Bolters don't kill things. Maybe a few here and there, but, not too many.
    this being the case baring the need for the larger capacity (which you did indeed give a few good examples) why would you ever run the crusader over any of the other variants. The normal one at least has a chance of killing tanks (not a good one but its better than not killing much if anything with bolters) and the Redeemer is effective vs troops.

    From this back and forth it seems to me the Land Raider breakdown if you actually want to take one is

    Crusader- Only if you will use the larger capacity
    Redeemer- if you want a very strong/fast (since you are only using 1 flamestorm why not move 12 inches) fire support after dropping things off
    Land Raider- Only if its the only kind you have.
    Check out my horrible homebrews

  5. - Top - End - #65
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Jan 2008

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.

    Quote Originally Posted by crazedloon View Post
    Crusader- Only if you will use the larger capacity
    Redeemer- if you want a very strong/fast (since you are only using 1 flamestorm why not move 12 inches) fire support after dropping things off
    Land Raider- Only if its the only kind you have.
    Sounds about right. But, to me, the Redeemer still feels like a waste. I guess mostly because if you've built your army right, you shouldn't really need the Flamestorms. I mean, you don't need the bolters either...

    As much as I love them, and I hate to say it, you don't really need Land Raiders at all...
    x2 Vindicators. For cheaper.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2010-06-21 at 07:48 PM.
    Spoiler: My Mum Says I'm Cool
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Anuan View Post
    Cheesegear; Lovable Thesaurus ItP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycan 01 View Post
    Cheesegear, have I told you yet that you're awesome?
    Quote Originally Posted by MeatShield#236 View Post
    ALL HAIL LORD CHEESEGEAR! Cheese for the cheesegear!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shas'aia Toriia View Post
    Cheesegear is awesome

  6. - Top - End - #66
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    crazedloon's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    As much as I love them, and I hate to say it, you don't really need Land Raiders at all...
    x2 Vindicators. For cheaper.
    indeed as the editions move forward we get more land raiders but they stay the same amount of useless
    Check out my horrible homebrews

  7. - Top - End - #67
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Closet_Skeleton's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Ēast Seaxna rīc
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.

    The redeemer is at least slightly cheaper points wise.
    "that nighted, penguin-fringed abyss" - At The Mountains of Madness, H.P. Lovecraft

    When a man decides another's future behind his back, it is a conspiracy. When a god does it, it's destiny.


  8. - Top - End - #68
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    evisiron's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    In the Playground

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Fixed it for you. I have never had my Land Raider surrounded in my life. Any of them.
    I saw it happen in my last game!
    Spoiler
    Show
    Behold Nosferatu, the Plant Vampire:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Thanks Kpenguin!

    Thanks Serpentine!


    Referring to Pop Yule Ashun:
    Quote Originally Posted by CyberRebirth View Post
    evisiron, that is the most awesome character idea I have ever heard of. I'm going to subscribe to this thread and look forward to updates.

  9. - Top - End - #69
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.

    Throwing together some blood angels lists:

    1000 point:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Gabriel Seth 160

    Honour Guard (5) 195
    Razorback (Extra Armor, HK Missile, Heavy Flamers)

    Furioso Dreadnought 175
    Librarian (Wings of Sanguinius, Might of Heroes)

    Sanguinary Priest 75
    Jump Pack

    Assault Squad (5) 140
    Power Fist, Infernus Pistol

    Scout Squad (10) 150
    Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher

    Death Company (3) 105
    Jump Packs
    ----
    1000 points


    1500 Points
    Spoiler
    Show
    Gabriel Seth 160

    Honour Guard (5) 195
    Razorback (Extra Armor, Heavy Flamers)

    Furioso Dreadnought 175
    Librarian (Wings of Sanguinius, Might of Heroes)

    Assault Terminators (5) 210
    2x Thunder Hammer, 3x Lightning Claws

    Sanguinary Priest 75
    Jump Pack

    Sanguinary Priest 85
    Terminator Armour

    Assault Squad (5) 140
    Power Fist, Infernus Pistol

    Scout Squad (10) 150
    Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher

    Death Company (3) 105
    Jump Packs

    Stormraven Gunship 215
    Extra Armour

    ----
    1500 points


    Both the lists are pretty much the same- my main concern would be not having enough troops. I guess I could drop the Death Company for another Assault Squad, and use the Jump Pack Sanguinary Priest where he'll affect both squads. The idea of the Stormraven in the 1500 list is to move in, drop off the Dreadnought and the Terminators and proceed to cleave faces in.
    Last edited by Gauntlet; 2010-06-22 at 05:50 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #70
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Jan 2008

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gauntlet View Post
    Throwing together some blood angels lists:
    Rightio.
    Spoiler
    Show
    Gabriel Seth 160
    Yep. I like him. A Reclusiarch with Melta Bombs and Jump Pack might be a better fit. Maybe.

    Honour Guard (5) 195
    Razorback (Extra Armor, HK Missile, Heavy Flamers)
    This is pretty expensive. You can get a ten-man Assault Squad for about the same points. Considering your lack of Troops...Yeah.

    Furioso Dreadnought 175
    Librarian (Wings of Sanguinius, Might of Heroes)
    Yep.

    Sanguinary Priest 75
    Jump Pack
    Assault Squad (5) 140
    Power Fist, Infernus Pistol
    Only five? Sad Face.

    Scout Squad (10) 150
    Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher
    I guess. But, I'm not a fan of 'just one' Scout Squad. I find that they just don't do enough.

    Death Company (3) 105
    Jump Packs
    100 points for 3 models is pretty expensive.

    In 1000 points you should be looking at 3 Scoring Units. You have two. And one is minimum-size.


    1500 Points
    More points! I'm only just commenting on things that I haven't already. Gabriel Seth and the Dread are still rockin'.

    Spoiler
    Show
    Honour Guard (5) 195
    Razorback (Extra Armor, Heavy Flamers)
    Still pretty expensive. But, you're sitting on 1500 points so it's not really that big of a deal. Although you could give them Jump Packs for cheaper.

    Assault Terminators (5) 210
    2x Thunder Hammer, 3x Lightning Claws
    Yep.

    Sanguinary Priest 75
    Jump Pack

    Sanguinary Priest 85
    Terminator Armour
    These are actually one unit. Just saying. At the moment it looks like you've got four Elite choices.

    Assault Squad (5) 140
    Power Fist, Infernus Pistol

    Scout Squad (10) 150
    Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher

    Death Company (3) 105
    Jump Packs
    So...You've got an extra 500 points to play with, and you don't upgrade or add to your Troops at all?
    "GG man, GG."

    Stormraven Gunship 215
    Extra Armour
    I suppose. Although don't be surprised if it dies in the first turn leaving your Terminators in the cold. Everyone knows by now that I hate the Stormraven. So, there is that. Ceramite Plating doesn't protect against Krak Missiles and Lascannons, even Autocannons have an outside shot. Ceramite Plating doesn't even protect against Rending weapons like Assault Cannons.

    Like the Monolith, people are in fits on whether Melta Bombs work 'properly' on Stromravens...They do, by the way.
    Melta Bombs have +2d6 Penetration, not 1d6+1d6 like normal Melta weapons. Melta Bombs don't roll 'extra' d6. "RAWr!"


    Both the lists are pretty much the same- my main concern would be not having enough troops.
    That's my issue too.
    Also, any decent shooting army, or, in fact any army that makes use of METAL BAWKSES wont be pleasant for you. Your army has expensive single models and low unit numbers.

    Secondly, any other dedicated close combat army (which are probably just as fast as you) will have fun against you. The only unit you've got that stand up to any Assault punishment is the Terminators, and even they can be defeated by superior numbers and/or Power Weapons.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2010-06-22 at 06:40 AM.
    Spoiler: My Mum Says I'm Cool
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Anuan View Post
    Cheesegear; Lovable Thesaurus ItP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycan 01 View Post
    Cheesegear, have I told you yet that you're awesome?
    Quote Originally Posted by MeatShield#236 View Post
    ALL HAIL LORD CHEESEGEAR! Cheese for the cheesegear!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shas'aia Toriia View Post
    Cheesegear is awesome

  11. - Top - End - #71
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Closet_Skeleton's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Ēast Seaxna rīc
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.

    I'm not sure the terminator priest is worth it. He's only giving you furious charge, since feel no pain is pretty useless on terminators. Give your terminators all hammers and he won't be worth it at all.

    But maybe that's just the black templar player with his crap storm shields and 3 point furious charge upgrade talking.

    You also have one priest per squad (excepting death company who don't need one) when you can usually keep two squads in the range of one priest.

    Its boring, but its probably best to go "all in rhinos and razorbacks" or "all wearing jump packs" rather than a mix. Most armies are a mix of anti tank and anti infantry, so you're basically just giving everything in your enemy's army its perfect target.
    Last edited by Closet_Skeleton; 2010-06-22 at 07:34 AM.
    "that nighted, penguin-fringed abyss" - At The Mountains of Madness, H.P. Lovecraft

    When a man decides another's future behind his back, it is a conspiracy. When a god does it, it's destiny.


  12. - Top - End - #72
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Jan 2008

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton View Post
    I'm not sure the terminator priest is worth it. He's only giving you furious charge, since feel no pain is pretty useless on terminators.
    Good catch. Pretty disappointed that I didn't pick up on that.
    Spoiler: My Mum Says I'm Cool
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Anuan View Post
    Cheesegear; Lovable Thesaurus ItP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycan 01 View Post
    Cheesegear, have I told you yet that you're awesome?
    Quote Originally Posted by MeatShield#236 View Post
    ALL HAIL LORD CHEESEGEAR! Cheese for the cheesegear!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shas'aia Toriia View Post
    Cheesegear is awesome

  13. - Top - End - #73
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    crazedloon's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.

    ... Am I missing something why is FNP a waste? It may not be usable vs high ap weapons (which they will sure be hit with) however it makes volume which is also an option vs such units nearly pointless thanks to half of the few shots which make it through pointless.

    I will say it is not worth the points in those lists at those points (or at least the T armor is not)
    Check out my horrible homebrews

  14. - Top - End - #74
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Jan 2008

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.

    Quote Originally Posted by crazedloon View Post
    makes volume which is also an option vs such units nearly pointless thanks to half of the few shots which make it through pointless.
    The better players wont bother with Volume as its not going to work. You know it's not going to work, they know it's not going to work. I've seen Orks - plus a Nob with Klaw - make 50 attacks against 5 Terminators and not make a single casualty. Twice.

    ...Just shoot pie plates at Terminators. Leave 'volume shooting' for something that you can at least kill. Most lists should have a guarantee Terminator-killer unit (I really hope I'm not that far out of everyone's league here...).

    Hammernators are slightly harder to kill, but the same principles apply. It's better to force 3+ saves than let them have their 2+ saves.

    I will say it is not worth the points in those lists at those points (or at least the T armor is not)
    Agreed. FNP or Terminator Armour. Not both. It's kind of waste. Considering that the Chalices have a radius of 6", you don't exactly need the Priest to tag along if there's another unit (say, an Assault Squad) that can just as easily keep up with a Stormraven and stay within 6" of the Terminator Squad anyway. Jump Packs are cheaper...

    ...Oh, wait...There's only one Assault Squad in the list...Wouldn't it be great if there was a second one?
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2010-06-22 at 08:23 AM.
    Spoiler: My Mum Says I'm Cool
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Anuan View Post
    Cheesegear; Lovable Thesaurus ItP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycan 01 View Post
    Cheesegear, have I told you yet that you're awesome?
    Quote Originally Posted by MeatShield#236 View Post
    ALL HAIL LORD CHEESEGEAR! Cheese for the cheesegear!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shas'aia Toriia View Post
    Cheesegear is awesome

  15. - Top - End - #75
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Ninja Chocobo's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Sydney

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    The better players wont bother with Volume as its not going to work. You know it's not going to work, they know it's not going to work. I've seen Orks - plus a Nob with Klaw - make 50 attacks against 5 Terminators and not make a single casualty. Twice.
    Disagreeing the hell out of this. Statistically, the Boyz should have killed three. I've had a squad of Lootas shoot at Terminators, kill three and have an empty Trukk chase them off the board. I've had five Meganobs kill two Terminators. With shooting.
    Volume works, if you have enough of it. Your dice are just as likely to roll a 1 as a 6. Siege Shields on Vindicators are seen as practically mandatory.
    I am the golden shadow. I am the Ninja Chocobo
    Avatar by me.
    My other avatars.
    The rest of my signature.
    Spoiler
    Show



  16. - Top - End - #76
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Jan 2008

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja Chocobo View Post
    Statistically, the Boyz should have killed three.
    See...The problem I have with that statement is...Obvious.
    The fact that it's happened twice...Well...

    Volume works, if you have enough of it. Your dice are just as likely to roll a 1 as a 6.
    But you're not rolling a 1 or 6. You're rolling a 1 or a 2+.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2010-06-22 at 09:03 AM.
    Spoiler: My Mum Says I'm Cool
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Anuan View Post
    Cheesegear; Lovable Thesaurus ItP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycan 01 View Post
    Cheesegear, have I told you yet that you're awesome?
    Quote Originally Posted by MeatShield#236 View Post
    ALL HAIL LORD CHEESEGEAR! Cheese for the cheesegear!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shas'aia Toriia View Post
    Cheesegear is awesome

  17. - Top - End - #77
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Ninja Chocobo's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Sydney

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    See...The problem I have with that statement is...Obvious.
    The fact that it's happened twice...Well...
    Statistics matter. If they didn't, Terminators wouldn't cost more than Tac squads.

    Also, the plural of "anecdote" is not "data". I've rolled three ones on 5 dice. Does that mean I've got a 60% chance of rolling a one?

    e: The other two were twos. OMG IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO ROLL A 3+

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    But you're not rolling a 1 or 6. You're rolling a 1 or a 2+.
    You're still rolling a 1, 1/6 of the time. That's not trivial.
    Last edited by Ninja Chocobo; 2010-06-22 at 09:10 AM.
    I am the golden shadow. I am the Ninja Chocobo
    Avatar by me.
    My other avatars.
    The rest of my signature.
    Spoiler
    Show



  18. - Top - End - #78
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Jan 2008

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja Chocobo View Post
    Statistics matter. If they didn't, Terminators wouldn't cost more than Tac squads.
    They do, and they don't. As I've said multiple times, statistics implies order. Card Games, for example, there's a finite number of cards in the deck, if you know how many cards have been taken out, and, if you know what those 'taken out' cards actually are, you can predict what the next card will be.
    The only true chance in a deck of cards is the first card. It's why casinos really don't like you counting cards.
    (Of course now casinos use two or three decks at once and get new deck/s for almost every game because they specifically don't want you counting cards.)

    Dice...Are Chance. You can't tell someone what they're going to roll. You can make an educated guess, but you're still going to come up trip-1s on the To Wound roll for your Krak Rockets.

    Lies. Damn Lies. Statistics.
    You want to know why number crunchers lose (and then cry about how stuff should have happened)? It's because Statistics and 40K don't really mix. They might be in the same room. But, they really, really hate each other. Sometimes they fight, and 40K goes down to the shop for some cigarettes and doesn't come back for days.

    I've rolled three ones on 5 dice. Does that mean I've got a 60% chance of rolling a one?

    The other two were twos. OMG IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO ROLL A 3+
    So, Statistics has failed you. Don't trust it anymore. I never did. That's why I fully expect Statistics to stab you in the back like that.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2010-06-22 at 09:23 AM.
    Spoiler: My Mum Says I'm Cool
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Anuan View Post
    Cheesegear; Lovable Thesaurus ItP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycan 01 View Post
    Cheesegear, have I told you yet that you're awesome?
    Quote Originally Posted by MeatShield#236 View Post
    ALL HAIL LORD CHEESEGEAR! Cheese for the cheesegear!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shas'aia Toriia View Post
    Cheesegear is awesome

  19. - Top - End - #79
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    A Fine Shanty Town
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.

    I've gotta agree with not trusting statistics in 40k, seeing as I'm coming off of a game where a single squad of Termies made six of those 5+ invulns in a row and managed to explode my Vindicator with a single krak missile in the first turn.

    Terminators are the devil! The devil I say!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja Chocobo View Post
    Your dice are just as likely to roll a 1 as a 6.
    That really depends on your dice, seeing as most 40k players don't have well-balanced ones, preferring tins of small, shoddy craftsmanship and hoping that the God Emperor prevents their comeuppance.

    Funnily enough, he never does.
    *Splendid Goatatar by that cool kid Serpentine
    "Give me a woman who loves beer and I will conquer the world"

  20. - Top - End - #80
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Erloas's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.

    We've had this statistics discussion far too many times. Cheesegear uses it, but uses it via experience rather then empirically, but won't admit it. Everyone else seems to use it directly and it works, so long as you know statistics isn't a guarantee but a likelihood.

    As for volume fire against terminators, thats about all I use. I don't have much for AP1/2 in my army, and my banshees usually have too much to do to worry about a small unit of terminators, so I shoot them until they die from it. It usually doesn't take that much. In fact, behind the land raider, terminators seem to be the most overrated unit in the game. (land raiders here aren't, but overall they seem to be) I usually enjoy terminator heavy opponents because it means I have fewer units to deal with, and the fewer units, the easier things get.

    Oh, and I have to say, I liked the old title better. I'm disappointed that it was changed considering that most people in the previous thread seemed to like it but it was changed just because someone didn't like it as much.

  21. - Top - End - #81
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Jan 2008

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erloas View Post
    We've had this statistics discussion far too many times. Cheesegear uses it, but uses it via experience rather then empirically, but won't admit it. Everyone else seems to use it directly and it works, so long as you know statistics isn't a guarantee but a likelihood.
    Indeed. What annoys me most is 'Should have done X' talk. As if you can tell dice what to. But, yes, most of my 'statistics' comes from experience, and I'd rather not waste 20+ Orks on 5 Terminators if I had the choice.
    They might kill 3 Terminators off 50 Attacks. But, those 50 attacks would be better spent elsewhere.

    In fact, behind the land raider, terminators seem to be the most overrated unit in the game. (land raiders here aren't, but overall they seem to be) I usually enjoy terminator heavy opponents because it means I have fewer units to deal with, and the fewer units, the easier things get.
    Agreed. Terminators are useful as an anvil unit. Anvil units don't work quite as well as they do in WHFB, but, the principle is the same.

    Most people use Terminators as a Brick unit. Which they function quite well as. But, there are other things that can beat them at it.

    I'm disappointed that it was changed considering that most people in the previous thread seemed to like it but it was changed just because someone didn't like it as much.
    If there were more complaints when I changed it...But there wasn't. I can change it back anytime...
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2010-06-22 at 09:53 AM.
    Spoiler: My Mum Says I'm Cool
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Anuan View Post
    Cheesegear; Lovable Thesaurus ItP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycan 01 View Post
    Cheesegear, have I told you yet that you're awesome?
    Quote Originally Posted by MeatShield#236 View Post
    ALL HAIL LORD CHEESEGEAR! Cheese for the cheesegear!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shas'aia Toriia View Post
    Cheesegear is awesome

  22. - Top - End - #82
    Titan in the Playground
     
    lord_khaine's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2006

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.

    If there were more complaints when I changed it...But there wasn't. I can change it back anytime...
    I personaly like this title better.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

  23. - Top - End - #83
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    evisiron's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    In the Playground

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.

    In defence of statistics, you cannot escape it. You will use it every game. You will shoot that termie unit instead of the scouts in cover with the plasma because you know statistically it will reap the greatest result. Stop running.
    And then you will roll a one to wound because you doubted its power!
    As for the title, the Tabletop change makes sense, but I hope we can change the witty slogan to one of the ones people enjoyed in the last thread, like "Waaagh! Uh, what is it good for?" or even a DoW one about THE EMPRAH!
    Spoiler
    Show
    Behold Nosferatu, the Plant Vampire:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Thanks Kpenguin!

    Thanks Serpentine!


    Referring to Pop Yule Ashun:
    Quote Originally Posted by CyberRebirth View Post
    evisiron, that is the most awesome character idea I have ever heard of. I'm going to subscribe to this thread and look forward to updates.

  24. - Top - End - #84
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Somewhere!
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    They might kill 3 Terminators off 50 Attacks. But, those 50 attacks would be better spent elsewhere.
    Statistically.
    My last breath... ...is also my mintiest...

    Avatar credit goes to a strictly platonic friend.

    Former Avatar credit goes to Howl.
    Spoiler
    Show



  25. - Top - End - #85
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Jan 2008

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.

    Quote Originally Posted by evisiron View Post
    In defence of statistics, you cannot escape it. You will use it every game. You will shoot that termie unit instead of the scouts in cover with the plasma because you know statistically it will reap the greatest result. Stop running.
    Yeah, but, that's common sense, rather than statistics. You don't need statistics to figure out that S7, AP2 is better than S4, AP5. However, I'm not prepared to say how much more effective a Plasmagun is over a Bolter. I'm not prepared to say how many casualties I should get.

    I acknowledged that statistics has it's place. But, I also know that 40K doesn't play averages and when you most need a 2+, you'll roll a one. Because Chance plays a greater roll than Statistics.
    Or, because Tzeentch hates you and laughs at your 'statistical averages' and then watches you lose because of that exact dice roll...Just as Planned.

    I hope we can change the witty slogan to one of the ones people enjoyed in the last thread, like "Waaagh! Uh, what is it good for?" or even a DoW one about THE EMPRAH!
    The problem I have with it, is that it doesn't really have anything to do with the thread except that some people like it. Some people also like this title too. So...
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2010-06-22 at 05:40 PM.
    Spoiler: My Mum Says I'm Cool
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Anuan View Post
    Cheesegear; Lovable Thesaurus ItP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycan 01 View Post
    Cheesegear, have I told you yet that you're awesome?
    Quote Originally Posted by MeatShield#236 View Post
    ALL HAIL LORD CHEESEGEAR! Cheese for the cheesegear!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shas'aia Toriia View Post
    Cheesegear is awesome

  26. - Top - End - #86

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    They do, and they don't. As I've said multiple times, statistics implies order. Card Games, for example, there's a finite number of cards in the deck, if you know how many cards have been taken out, and, if you know what those 'taken out' cards actually are, you can predict what the next card will be.
    The only true chance in a deck of cards is the first card.
    Actualy, as an ex-MTG player, statistics can still screw you in a deck of cards.

    I've seen tournaments won and lost because a player started with a good hand, and then his/her deck just decided to literally backstab them by providing the remaining cards on the completely wrong order despite the chance of it hapening being under 1%.

    But one still uses statistics to build their decks, despite knowing you can easily end up mana screwed.

    Same with 40K. You know those plasmas will kill termies more regularly than normal bolters.

    Statistics are more of a devil pact when you're in the brink of death. It will backstab you sooner or later, but it's still your best path to power and victory.

  27. - Top - End - #87
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.

    Warhammer 40K Tactics VII: Statistics are for the WEAK!

    Edit: Also, thanks for the list review, I'll throw up something updated some tomorrow (later today?)
    Last edited by Gauntlet; 2010-06-22 at 06:10 PM.

  28. - Top - End - #88
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    HalfOrcPirate

    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    In the Playground

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.

    Ah, I remember this thread. It's the area I used to go to, where I would bug Warhammer players with questions.

    So, I present another question. I was playing Dawn of War II today, as the Eldar. And I noticed how awesome they were, especially the Wraithguards. Does anyone here who knows Eldar know how to make an effective army while implenting the Wraith units (Wraithlords and Wraithguards)?
    Dr, Bath's Dolly!

  29. - Top - End - #89
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Arcanoi's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    ^ Creds to Lord Raziere

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.

    Erm....

    HQ
    Avatar of Khaine - 155 Points

    Troops

    Wraithguard x10 - 375 Points
    - Spirit Seer

    Wraithguard x10 - 375 Points
    - Spirit Seer

    Heavy Support

    Wraithlord - 125 Points
    - Flamers x2
    - Wraithsword
    - Eldar Missile Launcher

    Wraithlord - 110 Points
    - Flamers x2
    - Wraithsword
    - Shuriken Cannon

    Wraithlord - 110 Points
    - Flamers x2
    - Wraithsword
    - Shuriken Cannon

    Total: 1250 Points



    YOU WILL HAVE NO FRIENDS, EVER.

  30. - Top - End - #90
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Das Kapital

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.

    Quote Originally Posted by DCGFTW View Post
    Erm....

    LIST OF DOOM
    Put Wraithguard in transports. They need'em.
    Steampunk GwynSkull by DR. BATH

    "Live to the point of tears"
    - Albert Camus


    Quote Originally Posted by Wyntonian View Post
    What. Is. This. Madness.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •