Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.

[Arcanoi]

You could throw in some Wave Serpents with the next 250 point interval and fiddle with the Wraithlord armament, I suppose. But that sort of takes away the flavor of the list, doesn't it?

EDIT: Wait, Troop-strength Wraithguard can't take a Wave Serpent.

[Wraith]

So, I present another question. I was playing Dawn of War II today, as the Eldar. And I noticed how awesome they were, especially the Wraithguards. Does anyone here who knows Eldar know how to make an effective army while implenting the Wraith units (Wraithlords and Wraithguards)?

Playing 3 Wraithlord at a time is pretty much the definition of an 'effective' Eldar Army, to the point where people will take you outside and hamstring you for doing it
They're very, very good units - certainly the best in their Class, if not one of the best points-for-points investments in the game.

Wraithguard... Not so much.
They're very expensive (in terms of playing with them and paying for the models) and their battlefield role is shared with at least one other unit - the Fire Dragons - who are cheaper in both respects and have a number of options to tailor them to different situations, making them generally more flexible and therefore useful.

There aren't many reasons to use Wraithguard over Fire Dragons in the Elite slots, and that becomes more true as the unit gets bigger.
Sure, T6 and a 3+ save is nice, but by the time you have slogged all 10 of them across the board your similar-sized unit of Dragons will have done it twice over in their Wave Serpent, they will have killed the same (if not, more) targets and you still have points left over for other toys.
5-model units of Wraithguard will allow a Wave Serpent transport too, and there is some good argument for taking a small unit of extremely tough Wraithguard over the slightly-more fragile Fire Dragons, but that's really down to personal preference. Both will die if they run into a unit of Hammernators or turn a sharp corner into an angry squad of Noise Marines, and having killed the same amount of similar units then you might as well go with the choice that isn't going to hurt so much if you lose it?

As Troops, Wraithguard are great in Planetstrike and Take And Hold Objectives. Wraithcannon just annihilate scenery and enemy models alike (the former being better targets, as they can't run away!), and there are precious few units that can shift a Fearless, T6 3+/5+ from an Objective once they have taken root.
That being said, Wraithguard as Troops must be 11-strong (including Spiritseer), and sitting at the back of the table being unable to shoot anything is a terrible way of spending 400 points - almost as bad as trying to footslog them to the other side of the table and hope they don't get swamped in close combat before they reach their destination. In both cases, you might be better off investing in Pathfinders and letting their 2+ cover save do it's work while... y'know.... actually being able to shoot things as they do it...

In other types of mission... not even that much. They're slow and short ranged, making them easy to avoid. In missions where you win by scoring Kill Points, Wraithguard will at best break even; you can almost guarantee that they won't be wiped out (or if they are, only through the use of extreme effort) but by the same token they will rarely get into range of a cunning opponent so as to actually kill anything.

Long story short: WraithLORD will win you games, because they are TOO GOOD compared to their non-Eldar equivalents. Meanwhile, WraithGUARD will either sit motionless and do nothing - not a great way to spend nearly 400 points per unit? - or slowly stroll around scouring buildings from the face of the planet, surviving until the heat death of the universe but generally being a liability when you can squeeze better results out of other units.

Be prepared to make sacrifices for your Wraithguard. I speak from experience when I say that they are very, very different to playing any other kind of Eldar unit, which is a challenge that you might not find all that rewarding. DCGFTW's sample list is probably the most straightforward way of playing a Wraith-Army (though some people might prefer swapping the Avatar out for a pair of Fortune-ing Farseers) and I would have severe doubts that either you or your opponent would enjoy the game very much.

[Ninja Chocobo]

The thing that really irks me, Cheese, is that you're arguing statistics too, presented as 'common sense', but they're the wrong ones. You are saying that 50 attacks from Boys will never ever not ever kill a single Terminator, while the average is three. Averages are just that; averages. They're not a certainty, they just mean you're equally likely to get a result on either side of them; you're just as likely to kill six Termies with 50 attacks as you are to kill zero.

Like you said; statistics present an educated guess as to the outcome of a battle, which is more reliable than your 'common sense', which states that a 2+ save is impossible to fail.

Also, would 50 attacks really be better off spent elsewhere? That represents a Trukkful of Boys, which is about 150 points (including the Trukk), killing 120 points of shooty and krumpy badness. In the first round of combat. I believe that's known as 'dealing with a threat'.

[Mattarias, King.]

Oh, uh, hey, popping in for a couple slightly random questions...

1) If you keep in coherency, can one squad of troops stretch out their guys and capture two objectives at once?

2) If you tank shock that, do only the two or three guys in the way have to move?

3) What are the usual point increments people play, pre-apocalypse, that is? As in, does it go: 500, 1000, 1500, 1850, etc? Doesn't seem to have much of a 'standard'...

[Razaele]

Gah, sorry for the reply. I was out job hunting all of yesterday. Those Battleforces and the AoBR aren't going to be paying for themselves.

Anyway, yeah I see each side's points, and I understand why the Crusader could win over the Redeemer because of it's capacity and the fact that the Hurricane Bolters are defensive weapons.

Also, as Cheesegear pointed out, it is highly unlikely that I will ever use both of the Redeemer's Flamestorm cannons. But that being said, even just one Flamestorm cannon is going to do a lot more damage than 2 Hurricane Bolters. So I guess it all boils down to how many Hammernators I'm going to be using for that particular game.

Hmm. I guess I should learn how to use magnets on my Land Raider's weapons.

Also, sidenote. Yesterday after I finished job hunting I decided to visit a gaming store that my uncle recommended. I saw the owner's Blood Angel army on display inside the store. It was MAGNIFICENT. I'm no art critic, but I know a well painted model when I see one. Every single on of the models in his 2000 point army was painted. Guh. I really really want to start my army now.

[Arcanoi]

1) If you keep in coherency, can one squad of troops stretch out their guys and capture two objectives at once?

Yes. However, this can lead to some annoying things such as...

2) If you tank shock that, do only the two or three guys in the way have to move?

If you can magically keep them coherent, I suppose. But if you can't, well, then you have some problems.

3) What are the usual point increments people play, pre-apocalypse, that is? As in, does it go: 500, 1000, 1500, 1850, etc? Doesn't seem to have much of a 'standard'...

It's generally 500, and then each 250-point interval after that. Mostly because people usually build their armies in 250-point intervals. However, the most common games you'll see are likely 1000, 1500, and 2000 points.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Also, as Cheesegear pointed out, it is highly unlikely that I will ever use both of the Redeemer's Flamestorm cannons.

Even though power of the machine spirit is kind of perfect for it.

But that being said, even just one Flamestorm cannon is going to do a lot more damage than 2 Hurricane Bolters.

Sorry, but that's just your inexperiance talking.

2 hurricaine bolters is actually 6 twin linked bolters. Sure that's only as good as 6 tactical marines, but tactical marines win games. They have a threat range of 30 (24 range + 6 inch move) and can fire 6 shots, which on average pretty much all hit. They're AP 5, so against guard and orcs they're better than flamestorm cannons in every way. When you get into flamestorm range your shots then double to 12 shots, which averages into like 10 hits. A single flamestorm cannon will hit only 3 enemies unless you're very lucky (and if you can hit more you're probably not shooting at enemies with a 3+ save). So the larger ammount of wounds will probably help balance out the worse AP.

Redeemers would be awesome in a custom scenario where you have to move along a road and enemies keep ambushing you. But so would a crusader.

[Cheesegear]

3) What are the usual point increments people play, pre-apocalypse, that is? As in, does it go: 500, 1000, 1500, 1850, etc? Doesn't seem to have much of a 'standard'...

750, 1000, 1500
IIRC AoBR has lists that are about 600-700 points. You don't really see less than that outside of 400 point Combat Patrols (which no longer exist) and 200 point Kill Teams (which is pretty bad, TBH).

Tournaments are typically 1500, 1750 or 1850.

People who like long games (for whatever reason ), play 2000 points.

'Ard Boyz Tournaments are 2250. Pretty sure those guys are nuts. 'Ard Boyz is about making the biggest, stompiest army you can find and making your opponent cry with it. I heard that a lot of the games in 'Ard Boyz don't last more than three or four turns due to Tabling.

1000, 1500 are the most common. 1750 if you roll with 'that particular crowd' like I do.

[Ninja Chocobo]

outside of 400 point Combat Patrols (which no longer exist)

Not officially, but there are rules for it:
1+ Troops choice, no vehicles with AV >33 (front+side+rear), no >2W models, no 2+ saves, no psychic powers that require a psychic test.

[ShadowFighter15]

Isn't Combat Patrol (or something like it) in that Battle Missions book? I haven't looked at it myself, but I was watching a video on youtube about it and the two guys going over it mentioned Combat Patrol (I think, it's been a while). This is the video for those interested and I'm gonna watch it again myself because now it's bugging me whether Combat Patrol was in there or not.

[Cheesegear]

Isn't Combat Patrol (or something like it) in that Battle Missions book?

'Fraid not.

You've got Kill Team, Linebreaker and Clash of Heroes.

There are rules for Combat Patrol like Ninja Chocobo said, but, they're not really viable in 5th Ed. anymore. Combat Patrols, or, '40K in 40mins' were the 'learner' missions in 4th Ed. It was quick to do, and due to not much 'hardcore stuff' GW Staff could teach to someone in about 15-20mins.

The rules for Combat Patrol basically invalidate AoBR as a good investment.

[ShadowFighter15]

'Fraid not.

You've got Kill Team, Linebreaker and Clash of Heroes.

There are rules for Combat Patrol like Ninja Chocobo said, but, they're not really viable in 5th Ed. anymore. Combat Patrols, or, '40K in 40mins' were the 'learner' missions in 4th Ed. It was quick to do, and due to not much 'hardcore stuff' GW Staff could teach to someone in about 15-20mins.

The rules for Combat Patrol basically invalidate AoBR as a good investment.

Ahk, must've gotten Combat Patrol and Kill Team confused (had a PDF of the 4th edition rulebook years ago and remember Kill Team from that).

[KilltheToy]

'Fraid not.

You've got Kill Team, Linebreaker and Clash of Heroes.

There are rules for Combat Patrol like Ninja Chocobo said, but, they're not really viable in 5th Ed. anymore.

Google is a wonderful thing.

Granted, they're unofficial so I have no idea if they'll let you use them at a GW shop.

[Cheesegear]

Google is a wonderful thing.

Well, it looks like a direct copy of the same thing I have in 4th, or what Ninja Chocbo posted before. Like I said, 5th Ed. makes Combat Patrol pretty non-viable.

[Ninja Chocobo]

Google is a wonderful thing.

Granted, they're unofficial so I have no idea if they'll let you use them at a GW shop.

Here would be a more recent revision of the rules.

Side-note: That "50% Citadel conversion" is the stupidest goddamn thing. Makes me almost glad that GW doesn't run any events in Australia.

[Cheesegear]

Side-note: That "50% Citadel conversion" is the stupidest goddamn thing. Makes me almost glad that GW doesn't run any events in Australia.

GW doesn't run any events in Australia?

...Somebody doesn't read the back of their White Dwarf...
Every couple of weeks I ask my GW Store if the Brisbane stores are having a tournament that I want to go to since my local GW isn't big enough to host tournaments.

In other news, today I ordered Captain Shrike Wraith, and Korvydae.

[Ninja Chocobo]

GW doesn't run any events in Australia?

Okay fner. The major tournaments are all run by third parties, though, and there's no GT circuit like in America or Britain, so no BS conversion restrictions.

...Somebody doesn't read the back of their White Dwarf...

...

e: I swear I heard/read that GW were no longer officially running events in Australia from like two years ago.

[Mattarias, King.]

Arright, thanks guys. I coulda sworn he somehow kept holding his objectives while tank shocked, and then regrouped while still holding them, despite some flamer casualties.. Ah well.

As for points, I guess I'm shooting for.. 1850, then? Maybe 2000? I dunno. Hm. Arright then.

Well, thanks again. I might put up a battle report or something next time I have a game, if you guys would dig that.

[Cheesegear]

Well, thanks again. I might put up a battle report or something next time I have a game, if you guys would dig that.

People seemed to like my Battle Reports. But, I have a particular style. And there was another Battle Report someone else wrote that had Pedro and his Space Marines on the toilet in their Drop Pod which I quite enjoyed.

Try and inject personality into the Battle Report. What did you think when you saw his army after deployment? Was there any particular 'epic' moment during the battle? Are your characters named? Like all the Pokémon LPs about, it makes the battle much more engaging-slash-fun to read if we can connect somehow with the battle.

It also makes it that much better if, one day, you write another Battle Report and use the same characters. So we actually get a feel for how you play your army, etc.

If you're going to write "In Turn 1 I did X, and then it was Turn 2.", sure, we're still going to read it, but, it's not going to be as fun.


My favourite Battle Report was Imperial Guard vs. Chaos Marines back in 4th Ed. that had Grey Knights allies and a Great Unclean One. My Google-fu fails me. But, the Grey Knight said "FOR THE EMPEROR!" a lot and got eaten by the GUO, except then cutting it open from the inside out saying "FOR THE EMPEROR!"

[Razaele]

Even though power of the machine spirit is kind of perfect for it.

Yeah. There's always the Twin-Linked Assault Cannons![/QUOTE]

Sorry, but that's just your inexperiance talking.

Sadly, I am inclined to agree with you. I've only ever been in 3 games, and those resulted in 1 win, 1 draw (just barely), and 1 loss.

2 hurricaine bolters is actually 6 twin linked bolters. Sure that's only as good as 6 tactical marines, but tactical marines win games. They have a threat range of 30 (24 range + 6 inch move) and can fire 6 shots, which on average pretty much all hit. They're AP 5, so against guard and orcs they're better than flamestorm cannons in every way. When you get into flamestorm range your shots then double to 12 shots, which averages into like 10 hits. A single flamestorm cannon will hit only 3 enemies unless you're very lucky (and if you can hit more you're probably not shooting at enemies with a 3+ save). So the larger ammount of wounds will probably help balance out the worse AP.

Redeemers would be awesome in a custom scenario where you have to move along a road and enemies keep ambushing you. But so would a crusader.

Seriously? I mean, alright I concede that the Crusader will most likely outperform the Redeemer when going against low armor armies, but being able to only hit 3 enemies per shot? It might be my inexperience talking again, but I've seen template weapons in action and have in fact went up against them and usually I see around 5-6 hits per shot. Granted, the Crusader might still be able to hit more targets with it's 12 Twin-Linked shots, but against MEQ's won't the Redeemer be the more logical choice? Because seriously, I've seen the Crusader in action and I was completely underwhelmed. I saw it fire all of it's weapons on a squad of Space Marine Scouts, and after everything was rolled it only manage to kill 2. And both of those kills were because of the Assault Cannon.

[Cheesegear]

I've seen template weapons in action and have in fact went up against them and usually I see around 5-6 hits per shot.

Agreed. Closet_Skeleton has said Flamers only hit 3 things models before, and I had wondered what he was talking about then, too. My Avenger (from a Librarian) always hits lots of models usually anywhere between four and seven.

Still, I prefer the Crusader. Vehicles should always be moving six inches a turn, regardless of everything else. A Crusader can shoot all it's weapons - and then one extra.

A Redeemer can shoot both Flamestorms. And not even straight forwards. If a Redeemer gets Immobilised (which is fairly common), it's screwed.

[Gauntlet]

Blood Angels, try 2. I've only done the 1000 point one here. I tried to fit a Baal Predator in there, but couldn't manage it without losing something more interesting, so I took the Death Company unit instead.

Spoiler

Show

Gabriel Seth 160

Furioso Dreadnought 175
Librarian (Wings of Sanguinius, Might of Heroes)

Sanguinary Priest 75
Jump Pack

10 Scouts 140
Sniper Rifles

5 Scouts 110
Combat Blades
Power Fist, Combi-melta

Assault Squad 135
Razorback (Heavy Flamer), Extra Armour

Assault Squad 120
Power Weapon, Meltabombs

Death Company 85
Bolters, Power Fist

---
1000

[Cheesegear]

Blood Angels, try 2. I've only done the 1000 point one here.

Right.

Spoiler

Show

Gabriel Seth 160

Furioso Dreadnought 175
Librarian (Wings of Sanguinius, Might of Heroes)

Sanguinary Priest 75
Jump Pack

10 Scouts 140
Sniper Rifles

All good. But, really, it's 1000 points, you don't need the Furioso.

5 Scouts 110
Combat Blades
Power Fist, Combi-melta

Only five? Without a Land Speeder Storm? Just kidding. Blood Angels don't get those.
A Power Fist and Combi-Flamer might be more useful. Otherwise Power Fist and Shotgun will do nicely.

Don't be surprised if these guys are completely underwhelming.

Assault Squad 135
Razorback (Heavy Flamer), Extra Armour

This is fine. Although Extra Armour might be a waste. Also, the only Metal Bawks in the army. Will get shot at. Do you know what's scary? Lots and lots and lots of Razorbacks. Blood Angels can do it way better than Codex Marines can.

Assault Squad 120
Power Weapon, Meltabombs

This is not. A dedicated Assault unit of 5 doesn't do a whole lot unless they have Power Weapons out the wazoo.

Death Company 85
Bolters, Power Fist

3 guys. 85 Points.
Not another 5 Scouts with Rifles and a Missile Launcher? Or rounding out your other (Scoring) squads who actually need to live?

A great person by the name of Closet_Skeleton once said "Every Troops choice spent on a non-Scoring unit is a Troops choice wasted."

Given how expensive Death Company are, that goes double for them.

You've got 5 Troops in 1000 points. But, four of them are at minimum size and one doesn't even score. Also, not enough ranged anti-armour. Power Fists just don't cut it.

...I know why low-points Blood Angels lists don't work now. People are frequently taking the 'toys', rather than things that actually matter. As I've pointed out once before, Blood Angels are staggeringly similar to Codex Marines with the exception of the Red Thirst.

Would you take an Ironclad in 1000 points? Would you take a Furioso Librarian in 1000 points (who is much more counter-able than an Ironclad)?

You would, would you? How about at the expense of Troops?

This might work...

Spoiler

Show

HQ
Gabriel Seth - 160 Points

ELITES
Sanguinary Priests (x2) - 100 Points

TROOPS
x10 Scouts - 140 Points
Sniper Rifles

Assault Marines (x5) - 120 Points
+ Razorback: Heavy Flamer

Assault Marines (x5) - 120 Points
+ Razorback

Assault Marines (x5) - 120 Points
+ Razorback

Heavy Support
Dreadnought - 120 Points
Plasma Cannon, Missile Launcher

Dreadnought - 120 Points
Plasma Cannon, Missile Launcher

Total: 1000 Points

Swap the Plasma Cannons on the Dreads for Assault Cannons for better results against AV13+ (Vindicators in 1000 points, that's about it, I think)

Still has the basic theme of your list...I think. And opposing Librarians, Eldar or Tyranids can't use their Hat Powers and shut down your Dreadnoughts for fun and profit.

Might want to drop one Dreadnought for another Assault Squad (that doesn't get an IC-attachment ), and swap the other Dreadnought to upgrade as many Razorbacks to Assault Cannons or Lascannons.

EDIT: 2 such upgrades and a third Sanguinary Priest for your fourth Assault Squad makes 120 Points, or one Dreadnought.

[Gauntlet]

I put the Furioso in there because, as you have already mentioned, Psychic Hoods are awesome. A flying Dreadnought is also a second target for the stuff which would otherwise be shooting my Razorback. The 5-man unit of Scouts is there to melt my opponent's metal boxes and generally look more threatening than they are (it's a power fist and a melta, for 110 point. I would hope that *something* of interest would get killed by them, and they'll draw some fire off my other units).
The 5-man Assault Squad without the Razorback will have a Priest with them, which I was thinking would both make them durable enough to have enough people alive to make a difference when they reach the enemy, and amplify their damage enough to make them a threat. If they're putting enough fire into that assault squad to take them out, through 6 models and Feel No Pain, then that's a lot of shots which could have been pointing at Seth, or massacring my Scouts.
Death Company are there as filler, mostly. They're another unit which will cause a decent amount of damage if they get into combat but will also take a while to kill.
I'd like to take at least some jump infantry (it is a blood angels army, after all). Seth needs a transport, so that assault squad is in. I have to cap objective somehow -> the 10man scout snipers. To make my jump pack squad effective it needs something extra, so it gets the Sanguinary Priest. For the rest of the points, I could either take a Baal Predator and a load of unit upgrades (or a Baal, take no upgrades and try to squeeze another scout squad in there)- or some other choice. I figured another scoring unit wouldn't be a problem (and I only have 2 assault units, some more numbers would be useful) so I went with some Scouts, filling out the remaining points with the Death Company.
I apologise for the massive wall of text crit. I just feel like I should rationalise my ideas so Cheesegear can rip them apart again.

[Cheesegear]

I don't like tearing apart people's hopes and dreams. Damn it Shas'aia Toiira. Making me feel bad...

I put the Furioso in there because, as you have already mentioned, Psychic Hoods are awesome.

By dropping Seth for a Librarian (Let's say Blood Lance {for S8} and Shackle Soul {to stop your opponent's doing anything while your units gets out of vehicles}), you get a Psychic Hood and an additional 60 Points. Maybe spend it on a Jump Pack and then upgrade a Razorback to Lascannons.

A flying Dreadnought is also a second target for the stuff which would otherwise be shooting my Razorback.

It's an expensive target. Which is kind of the problem.

The Scouts [...] Power fist and a melta, for 110 point. I would hope that *something* of interest would get killed by them, and they'll draw some fire off my other units

Depends who gets the first turn. The Combi-Melta gets one shot. Due to the fact that you need to deploy 18" away (I rarely get to deploy 12" away out of LoS), you'll waste the Melta shot, or not even use it at all if you play it safe.

The Scouts rule might help. But, I wouldn't count on it.

If they're putting enough fire into that assault squad to take them out, through 6 models and Feel No Pain, then that's a lot of shots which could have been pointing at Seth, or massacring my Scouts.

Vindicator. Plasma weapons, D-Cannons. Wont even break a sweat. It's what they're for.

Now that D-Cannons are available in plastic, I'm starting to see them more and more. Two or three for the price of one Wraithlord? And then you can have another 2 Wraithlords anyway?

Death Company are there as filler, mostly. They're another unit which will cause a decent amount of damage if they get into combat but will also take a while to kill.

Considering that they have to walk, and no Jump Packs, if your opponent lets your Death Company make it across the board...I want to play him.


...I still feel that you're missing ranged anti-armour. If your opponent gets the first turn, you're ruined. Which isn't an especially good way to build an army.

[Erloas]

So I remember someone saying something about the Witch Hunters and Daemon Hunters codexes and products have change availability in some areas.

And in reading the new posts on GW's site I came across this:

In other, non-Warhammer related news, we've added both the Witch Hunters: Codex and the Daemonhunters: Codex to the Astronomican. You can now download both of these for free. This is great news for all 40K fans so tomorrow I'll drag myself away from the Warhammer world and talk a bit more about them.

[KilltheToy]

So I remember someone saying something about the Witch Hunters and Daemon Hunters codexes and products have change availability in some areas.

And in reading the new posts on GW's site I came across this:

I saw that on the B&C. They were complaining about how the Daemonhunters Codex is missing inducted units and allies. Witch Hunters is only missing allies.

[ZeltArruin]

CheeseGear, you have the best battle reports! Such narrative and story telling truly make your power-armoured super mutants the stuff of legends! Right Emprah?
*squeek*

I guess that is somewhat relative to the rest of the thread.

[Mattarias, King.]

Awesome, I was planning on doing stuff like that anyways! If there's anything I'm good at, it's writing interesting stories. You guys won't be disappointed.

Now to go pick a fight at my FLGS...

[Closet_Skeleton]

My 'terrible' tyranid army somehow managed to table sisters on turn 5. I only lost 1 unit of warriors, one unit of genestealers, most of my termagaunts (the rest hid on an objective), my trygon and old one eye. My other unit of warriors and a unit of genestealers didn't really get to do anything either.

Beasts are very good at spearhead deployment. My raverners managed to turn 1 charge some dominions and wipe them out before getting boltered to death. Meaning that he only had one unit of sisters and an immolator guarding his exorcists from a trygon and 32 genestealers.

My zoanthrope spent the whole game getting his psychic powers canceled, apart from the one turn he managed to kill the vendetta (the inquisitor's transport as per an imperial armour supplement) who spent the whole game stunned (but also absorbing all my shooting).

Old One Eye and some Seraphim mutually anihilated each other .